Do you agree with the concept of "fans leaders"?

With all the meetings lately, I thought it would be pertinent to ask whether you guys agree with having fans representatives, and whether you feel they adequately express your own views, or are controlling and serve their own agenda.

a lot of jacks will post on this, which will sway the votes. CCFC

We'll see. I generally feel people are against them anyway, this will validate that

I don't like it, they don't always represent my views and and I don't want to be led by another person, I lead myself.

I do and I don't.
I appreciate they can't ask every fan and at times want to gauge views.

I guess the point is to get out information unofficially to the fans.

At times I can understand the unofficial route but the rebranding "talks" have lacked a bit if class and more should have been said officially.

Yes, I do. I'm a member of the supporters' club, and of the supporters' trust. Both have paid up memberships, and democratic elections and AGMs, to which all members are invited. In their different ways, they do good jobs, and I am happy enough for our elected leaders to deal with the club on our behalf.

As a fairly regular contributor to this forum, I am happy enough for Annis and Carl to represent our collective views too, as best they can. This forum acts as a travel club to away games, and organises tickets etc., so there is a collective identity, that I am glad to be part of.

As a season ticket holder, who went to ten away league games last season (wih the supporters' club, because of the no-alcohol rule on the actual coaches), I personally think that all three groups represent the fans well.

Long may they all continue Keep up the good work

We'll see. I generally feel people are against them anyway, this will validate that

The Jacks have taken over the poll

I am all for fans leaders. I have met both Annis and Carl and find them both to be very fine young men and very polite. Carls updates kept me in the loop for years during the days when Dave Jones wanted to keep us senior citizens away from the club. Annis has done more for us elderly folk than anyone at this club. Annis also takes on board what others have to say, he will relentlessly chase the club up on our concerns, all you have to do is E-Mail him.

This club would be in the 4th tier if it wasn't for the likes of Annis, Carl and the Bigspyn (regrettably). They are better than that halfwit Tony Jefferies

We'll see. I generally feel people are against them anyway, this will validate that

Oi. Don't.

Im my own person,i dont need anyone to lead me

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

Im already a leader but im alone as a one man band, no army just me.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it. i like this

I don't think its a case of "leaders" i think its representatives.

They cant take on board the opinion of every single fan howeveer they can seek the opinion of certain individuals who are active amongst the fans to gauge the feelings of the fans on certain issues or to relay information in a sensible manner.

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

As naive as that sounds you have a point.

People forget if Tan wanted Red kit and dragon badge he could have just done it, even with no talk of investment.

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

Fair play he had you there Gwyn.

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

As naive as that sounds you have a point.

People forget if Tan wanted Red kit and dragon badge he could have just done it, even with no talk of investment.

Maybe not as he currently doesnt own the club 49% is not a controlling interest if the things that have been posted here are to be believed

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

Fair play he had you there Gwyn.

Oh I get it now

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

Fair play he had you there Gwyn.

Isn't that what I been saying all the way through, we are simply customers, the owners make the decisions, we as customers simply vote with our feet, who do some of us think we are telling the owners they should consult and negotiate with us before making decisions, either we put up ( like millions and millions) or we have to shut up.

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

Fair play he had you there Gwyn.

Isn't that what I been saying all the way through, we are simply customers, the owners make the decisions, we as customers simply vote with our feet, who do some of us think we are telling the owners they should consult and negotiate with us before making decisions, either we put up ( like millions and millions) or we have to shut up.

So I assume you'll be declining any future invitation to such meetings of selected fans?

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

Fair play he had you there Gwyn.

Isn't that what I been saying all the way through, we are simply customers, the owners make the decisions, we as customers simply vote with our feet, who do some of us think we are telling the owners they should consult and negotiate with us before making decisions, either we put up ( like millions and millions) or we have to shut up.

Gwyn I think he was taking the piss.
What is the point of being a fans leader if you think that the fans do not have the right to consultation. Of course we have every right to consultation. I would not expect to be consulted on running the finer aspects of the business as this would be ridiculous but I would expect to be consulted over rebranding when our colours or badge are changed especially if these things were trying to be introduced after I had just handed over my hard earned cash for 2 season tickets.
The proposal of dropping the bluebird in favour of a dragon and changing the colours were a massive change and certainly the biggest in recent times and you don't think that this merited consultation?
You might think that our level of consulation should be limited to negotiating what flavour popcorn they serve under the family stand but we deserve so much more than this especially if the issues affect us directly.

i'm totally against "fans leaders"
some have got a grand view of their own self importance and do not represent the thoughts and wishes of the majority of city fans
some who seem to have big personalities try to impose their views on their fellow fans

BigGwyn representing himself and me

Being serious I have no problem with it. If the club didn't engage then they would get slagged off for that.

If a single fan wants their voice to be heared, i think its possible with a bit of effort. That protest for example

I will ways contribute If I feel it can be constructive, I consider myself as someone who can't just moan from behind a key board, I try and do something about it, this has led to me travelling all over the country (mind you only a fraction of the miles that Vince does for fans rights) I have been active with the Football Supporters Federation, I have attended conferences all around the country on issues such as fans rights, police powers, changes to football stewarding etc.

I have been to court dozens of times supporting or even acting as a witness for our fans who i feel have been treated unfairly, I more or less put my life on hold for eight years after I set the Valley rams up.

A lot of people that moan or snipe or criticise, do nothing positive to help or try and change things, if something is going on that I'm not happy about, I will try and get involved and change things from within.

There is a need for fans involvement and discussion over many matters at the club, but as far as I'm concerned, some among us feel they should be involved in decisions that at the end of the day should be left to those that run and own our club. At the end of the day the club is a business and we are customers, I would like to think that the people employed to carry out such tasks are experts in their field, otherwise why are they involved.

In the last meeting at the club, people were saying they should have been involved in the business plan, they wanted to know where the investment was coming from, how much exactly, in what form was it being paid, where exactly was it being allocated blah blah blah.

Now to me as a fan and a customer, I don't see how that is any business of mine other than to leave it to the experts, things such as policing us stewarding us, making us sit stand etc, kick off times bubble matches etc, now these are the areas we need a voice at.

It's really easy to get involved if you want to, just come forward step up to the mark, join the Trust, join the Supporters club, run a web site, run a bus, set up a help fans group, do whatever to help your fellow fans, but it involves a lot of work, a lot of time and some time a lot of flak, and suprisingly no pay or expenses.

Some of these meeting are mind zappingly tedious, but every now and then you can make a small difference nd possibly that's why some of us do these things.

I will ways contribute If I feel it can be constructive, I consider myself as someone who can't just moan from behind a key board, I try and do something about it, this has led to me travelling all over the country (mind you only a fraction of the miles that Vince does for fans rights) I have been active with the Football Supporters Federation, I have attended conferences all around the country on issues such as fans rights, police powers, changes to football stewarding etc.

I have been to court dozens of times supporting or even acting as a witness for our fans who i feel have been treated unfairly, I more or less put my life on hold for eight years after I set the Valley rams up.

A lot of people that moan or snipe or criticise, do nothing positive to help or try and change things, if something is going on that I'm not happy about, I will try and get involved and change things from within.

There is a need for fans involvement and discussion over many matters at the club, but as far as I'm concerned, some among us feel they should be involved in decisions that at the end of the day should be left to those that run and own our club. At the end of the day the club is a business and we are customers, I would like to think that the people employed to carry out such tasks are experts in their field, otherwise why are they involved.

In the last meeting at the club, people were saying they should have been involved in the business plan, they wanted to know where the investment was coming from, how much exactly, in what form was it being paid, where exactly was it being allocated blah blah blah.

Now to me as a fan and a customer, I don't see how that is any business of mine other than to leave it to the experts, things such as policing us stewarding us, making us sit stand etc, kick off times bubble matches etc, now these are the areas we need a voice at.

It's really easy to get involved if you want to, just come forward step up to the mark, join the Trust, join the Supporters club, run a web site, run a bus, set up a help fans group, do whatever to help your fellow fans, but it involves a lot of work, a lot of time and some time a lot of flak, and suprisingly no pay or expenses.

Some of these meeting are mind zappingly tedious, but every now and then you can make a small difference nd possibly that's why some of us do these things.

Spot on. If anyone feels their point of view is not being expressed, then step up to the mark and make yourself known.

So, what is the alternative? replace these ones with some new ones, will that solve the problems, or shall we have no fans represented, or shall we leave it to the silent majority we keep hearing about, who as soon as they get organised will no longer be, or represent the silent majority.

There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa dear lisa, then fix it dear henry dear henry, then fix it.

What is the need for them at all. After all, who do some of these fans think they are, being consulted. The clubs owners can do what they want.

BEST retort ever.

I will ways contribute If I feel it can be constructive, I consider myself as someone who can't just moan from behind a key board, I try and do something about it, this has led to me travelling all over the country (mind you only a fraction of the miles that Vince does for fans rights) I have been active with the Football Supporters Federation, I have attended conferences all around the country on issues such as fans rights, police powers, changes to football stewarding etc.

I have been to court dozens of times supporting or even acting as a witness for our fans who i feel have been treated unfairly, I more or less put my life on hold for eight years after I set the Valley rams up.

A lot of people that moan or snipe or criticise, do nothing positive to help or try and change things, if something is going on that I'm not happy about, I will try and get involved and change things from within.

There is a need for fans involvement and discussion over many matters at the club, but as far as I'm concerned, some among us feel they should be involved in decisions that at the end of the day should be left to those that run and own our club. At the end of the day the club is a business and we are customers, I would like to think that the people employed to carry out such tasks are experts in their field, otherwise why are they involved.

In the last meeting at the club, people were saying they should have been involved in the business plan, they wanted to know where the investment was coming from, how much exactly, in what form was it being paid, where exactly was it being allocated blah blah blah.

Now to me as a fan and a customer, I don't see how that is any business of mine other than to leave it to the experts, things such as policing us stewarding us, making us sit stand etc, kick off times bubble matches etc, now these are the areas we need a voice at.

It's really easy to get involved if you want to, just come forward step up to the mark, join the Trust, join the Supporters club, run a web site, run a bus, set up a help fans group, do whatever to help your fellow fans, but it involves a lot of work, a lot of time and some time a lot of flak, and suprisingly no pay or expenses.

Some of these meeting are mind zappingly tedious, but every now and then you can make a small difference nd possibly that's why some of us do these things.

Gwyn, like I have already stated, fans would not expect to have an input into things that do not concern them but lets remember you criticized fans for wanting to be consulted about the rebranding. You were advocating that they did not have a right to consultation regarding the the biggest proposed changes in recent years when clearly we had every right. You then described others at the meeting as being up their own arses for holding an opposing view to your own.
In your infamous BBC interview you came across as having the same mentality as a dickensian factory owner.If you hold the opinion (which you clearly do) that we should not get above our station and ask for consultation on issues where we should be clearly consulted then you are no leader in my opinion. At this meeting even if you had a majority mandate from the fans to kick out the rebranding proposals then I am not convinced that you would have vociferously represented the fans views adequately and would have been more likely to have bit the pillow and allowed the Malaysians to do whatever they wanted.

I will ways contribute If I feel it can be constructive, I consider myself as someone who can't just moan from behind a key board, I try and do something about it, this has led to me travelling all over the country (mind you only a fraction of the miles that Vince does for fans rights) I have been active with the Football Supporters Federation, I have attended conferences all around the country on issues such as fans rights, police powers, changes to football stewarding etc.

I have been to court dozens of times supporting or even acting as a witness for our fans who i feel have been treated unfairly, I more or less put my life on hold for eight years after I set the Valley rams up.

A lot of people that moan or snipe or criticise, do nothing positive to help or try and change things, if something is going on that I'm not happy about, I will try and get involved and change things from within.

There is a need for fans involvement and discussion over many matters at the club, but as far as I'm concerned, some among us feel they should be involved in decisions that at the end of the day should be left to those that run and own our club. At the end of the day the club is a business and we are customers, I would like to think that the people employed to carry out such tasks are experts in their field, otherwise why are they involved.

In the last meeting at the club, people were saying they should have been involved in the business plan, they wanted to know where the investment was coming from, how much exactly, in what form was it being paid, where exactly was it being allocated blah blah blah.

Now to me as a fan and a customer, I don't see how that is any business of mine other than to leave it to the experts, things such as policing us stewarding us, making us sit stand etc, kick off times bubble matches etc, now these are the areas we need a voice at.

It's really easy to get involved if you want to, just come forward step up to the mark, join the Trust, join the Supporters club, run a web site, run a bus, set up a help fans group, do whatever to help your fellow fans, but it involves a lot of work, a lot of time and some time a lot of flak, and suprisingly no pay or expenses.

Some of these meeting are mind zappingly tedious, but every now and then you can make a small difference nd possibly that's why some of us do these things.

Gwyn, like I have already stated, fans would not expect to have an input into things that do not concern them but lets remember you criticized fans for wanting to be consulted about the rebranding. You were advocating that they did not have a right to consultation regarding the the biggest proposed changes in recent years when clearly we had every right. You then described others at the meeting as being up their own arses for holding an opposing view to your own.
In your infamous BBC interview you came across as having the same mentality as a dickensian factory owner.If you hold the opinion (which you clearly do) that we should not get above our station and ask for consultation on issues where we should be clearly consulted then you are no leader in my opinion. At this meeting even if you had a majority mandate from the fans to kick out the rebranding proposals then I am not convinced that you would have vociferously represented the fans views adequately and would have been more likely to have bit the pillow and allowed the Malaysians to do whatever they wanted.

But they were being consulted, it is just sad that the planned time scale was blown out of the water by the leak. As far as i see it, our club more than most fully engage with fans and fans groups.
To me fans sitting around the table consulting with the CEO of a company is a benefit that most companies or business's wouldn't consider, our conduit to the very top is through these meetings with the CEO and Media and stadium manager.

But for some fans to feel they should have access and discussion with someone like VT who is businessman on a scale we can only imagine beggars belief.
The consultation as far as I see it is VT the owner wanted these changes, lot's of people including members of his family and Tg tried to convince him differently, but the buck stops with him, the consultation as I see it is the vast majority of fans do not want to change the shirt colour, but will go along with your wishes as part of the investment package, there are however a small percentage of fans who are totally opposed to the change.

To me I see this as consultation, the decision is now with the owner, let's hope he chooses what is best for us as we see it, rather than him as he sees it.

As for sitting down around a table with a billionaire business man and asking him to tell us about his business plan and how he intends to spend his money and in what areas, then dream on.

Gwyn, like I have already stated, fans would not expect to have an input into things that do not concern them but lets remember you criticized fans for wanting to be consulted about the rebranding. You were advocating that they did not have a right to consultation regarding the the biggest proposed changes in recent years when clearly we had every right. You then described others at the meeting as being up their own arses for holding an opposing view to your own.
In your infamous BBC interview you came across as having the same mentality as a dickensian factory owner.If you hold the opinion (which you clearly do) that we should not get above our station and ask for consultation on issues where we should be clearly consulted then you are no leader in my opinion. At this meeting even if you had a majority mandate from the fans to kick out the rebranding proposals then I am not convinced that you would have vociferously represented the fans views adequately and would have been more likely to have bit the pillow and allowed the Malaysians to do whatever they wanted.

We are getting into semantics now. You say we have a right to be consulted and I would agree we have a moral right, but in cold hard reality we do-not have any RIGHT to be consulted at all.

When Gwyn refers to others as 'being up their own arses' I can fully understand what he means but would have chosen a different discriptive. What he is referring is we are living in a dreamland if we believe that a billionaire is going to sit down around a table and ask the local Postman, Baker or Civil Servant (i.e. a section of our fanbase) how he is going to spend HIS £100m.

Once Vincent Tan has bought up 100% of the club he can rebrand at will (even without the £100m investment) and frankly non-enterties like you, Gwyn and myself will count for nothing.

However, we haven't got to that point yet and VT has only 34% of the shares (the other 15% is held by the other Malaysians on the board of directors) and therefore he can't override the wishes of everyone else for now. If we play it clever he may be open to quite dipolmacy from other directors and Alan Whiteley, who by the way is doing a great job (IMO)

We will have to wait but TBH I think that BigGwyn is only relaying a harsh truth and we better get used to it because at the end of the day we have no right to be consulted.

I will ways contribute If I feel it can be constructive, I consider myself as someone who can't just moan from behind a key board, I try and do something about it, this has led to me travelling all over the country (mind you only a fraction of the miles that Vince does for fans rights) I have been active with the Football Supporters Federation, I have attended conferences all around the country on issues such as fans rights, police powers, changes to football stewarding etc.

I have been to court dozens of times supporting or even acting as a witness for our fans who i feel have been treated unfairly, I more or less put my life on hold for eight years after I set the Valley rams up.

A lot of people that moan or snipe or criticise, do nothing positive to help or try and change things, if something is going on that I'm not happy about, I will try and get involved and change things from within.

There is a need for fans involvement and discussion over many matters at the club, but as far as I'm concerned, some among us feel they should be involved in decisions that at the end of the day should be left to those that run and own our club. At the end of the day the club is a business and we are customers, I would like to think that the people employed to carry out such tasks are experts in their field, otherwise why are they involved.

In the last meeting at the club, people were saying they should have been involved in the business plan, they wanted to know where the investment was coming from, how much exactly, in what form was it being paid, where exactly was it being allocated blah blah blah.

Now to me as a fan and a customer, I don't see how that is any business of mine other than to leave it to the experts, things such as policing us stewarding us, making us sit stand etc, kick off times bubble matches etc, now these are the areas we need a voice at.

It's really easy to get involved if you want to, just come forward step up to the mark, join the Trust, join the Supporters club, run a web site, run a bus, set up a help fans group, do whatever to help your fellow fans, but it involves a lot of work, a lot of time and some time a lot of flak, and suprisingly no pay or expenses.

Some of these meeting are mind zappingly tedious, but every now and then you can make a small difference nd possibly that's why some of us do these things.

Gwyn, like I have already stated, fans would not expect to have an input into things that do not concern them but lets remember you criticized fans for wanting to be consulted about the rebranding. You were advocating that they did not have a right to consultation regarding the the biggest proposed changes in recent years when clearly we had every right. You then described others at the meeting as being up their own arses for holding an opposing view to your own.
In your infamous BBC interview you came across as having the same mentality as a dickensian factory owner.If you hold the opinion (which you clearly do) that we should not get above our station and ask for consultation on issues where we should be clearly consulted then you are no leader in my opinion. At this meeting even if you had a majority mandate from the fans to kick out the rebranding proposals then I am not convinced that you would have vociferously represented the fans views adequately and would have been more likely to have bit the pillow and allowed the Malaysians to do whatever they wanted.

But they were being consulted, it is just sad that the planned time scale was blown out of the water by the leak. As far as i see it, our club more than most fully engage with fans and fans groups.
To me fans sitting around the table consulting with the CEO of a company is a benefit that most companies or business's wouldn't consider, our conduit to the very top is through these meetings with the CEO and Media and stadium manager.

But for some fans to feel they should have access and discussion with someone like VT who is businessman on a scale we can only imagine beggars belief.
The consultation as far as I see it is VT the owner wanted these changes, lot's of people including members of his family and Tg tried to convince him differently, but the buck stops with him, the consultation as I see it is the vast majority of fans do not want to change the shirt colour, but will go along with your wishes as part of the investment package, there are however a small percentage of fans who are totally opposed to the change.

To me I see this as consultation, the decision is now with the owner, let's hope he chooses what is best for us as we see it, rather than him as he sees it.

As for sitting down around a table with a billionaire business man and asking him to tell us about his business plan and how he intends to spend his money and in what areas, then dream on.

Gwyn you stated that we were not entitled to consultation when clearly we are entitled given the size of the rebranding. You are again trying to move the goalposts by arguing that consultation would have taken place but for the leak but that's irrelevant because you don't think that we should have had it anyway.
You are now trying to water down the argument further by suggesting that we are all demanding talks with our owner direct which is not true for everyone but it does not matter because you don't think that we are entitled to challenge VT in any way. We do not need to talk with VT direct as one of his representatives would do just fine as long as there is a proper process in place where we can make our feeling known to him.
As you state he is the owner and can try and do what he wants but he is also an astute business man who would recognise the worth of involving all steakholders especially the fans. If VT fails to get us to buy into his plans locally then he has an uphill struggle if he wants to expand them globally.