Any Welh historians on here
Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:36 pm
Monmouthshire used to be an English County but when was it made a Welsh County. And the old Welsh border is just outside of Cardiff. So how long ago was Newport moved to Wales ? And any idea when the Chepstow area was made a part of Wales?
Re: Any Welh historians on here
Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:59 pm
Might be of interest:
About the Area of Monmouthshire
A thousand years of change in the governing of south-east Wales lead to Monmouthshire being created out of the old Kingdom of Gwent. It is unusually closely tied to England.
The name Gwent is derived from Caer-went, the Celtic form of the Roman Vnnta Silurum, a fact which reflects the continuity between Roman settlement in the area and subsequent Celtic kingdom of Gwent, which was bounded by the River Wye to the east and to the west by the River Usk. That kingdom was eliminated shortly after 1066 at the Norman subjugation of south-east Wales, and replaced by several small and shifting Marcher lordships, including those of Gwynllwg, which controlled the mountainous area immeadiately west of the River Usk, and Abergavenny to the north. Although these lordships were in the hands of the Normans and their English descendants, the Welsh name of Gwent continued to be unofficially applied to the entire area.
The Act of Union of 1536, whereby the Tudor dynasty extended its rule over Wales as well as England, abolished the lordships and established in their place thirteen shires on the English model. The area which had informally been known as Gwent now became Monmouthshire, with Monmouth as its country town. This disposition proved durable over more than four centuries, and was superseded only in 1974.
Then eight new counties took the place of the former thirteen, taking account of the drastic differences in population which had developed in different parts of Wales as a result of industrialization since the early 19th century. In this reshuffle Monmouthshire was the only one of the thirteen counties to remain an entity, neither subdivided nor amalgamated. Yet, such was the desire to link this administrative change to an emphasis on Welshness, that the virtually unchanged entity had to change its name, and Gwent was reborn. Within the newly named county of Gwent were five new subdivisions: the county borough of Newport and four districts, covering the rural eastern two-thirds of the old county.
Finally, in 1996, the subdivision into five became much more significant when it was made the basis of a single tier of local government. The county of Gwent was abolished, and five unitary authorities were established along the lines of the former districts. Monmouth district was renamed as the county of Monmouthshire. So today Gwent does not officially exist, and Monmouthshire has shrunk to two-thirds its former size. Local loyalty, however, keeps both names alive.
Wales or England?
The question seems to have originated in a provision of the second Act of Union, of 1543, which for legal purposes apportioned twelve of the thirteen Welsh counties to four Welsh circuits, but placed Monmouthshire in the Oxford circuit. The county was also a little more strongly represented in the Westminster Parliament than any other. On this slim foundation it became common to find official references to 'South Wales and Monmouthshire'. and from 1974, under the revived name of Gwent, did it become indisputable that the county was fully a part of Wales.
Nevertheless, as is shown not least by the history of its architecture, the nearness of Bristol had a major effect on the county's economy and culture. Immigration into the county from England has been and continues to be substantial. In the twelfth century the Welsh language has been thoroughly in retreat, much more so than in some other parts of Wales, so that in the 1991 census less thn 3 per cent of the residents of Gwent reported that they could speak Welsh. Today, even among the farming community, West Country accents are more commonly heard than Welsh ones. The anglicizing of Welsh place names has produced more bizarre hybrids here than anywhere else in Wales.
About the Area of Monmouthshire
A thousand years of change in the governing of south-east Wales lead to Monmouthshire being created out of the old Kingdom of Gwent. It is unusually closely tied to England.
The name Gwent is derived from Caer-went, the Celtic form of the Roman Vnnta Silurum, a fact which reflects the continuity between Roman settlement in the area and subsequent Celtic kingdom of Gwent, which was bounded by the River Wye to the east and to the west by the River Usk. That kingdom was eliminated shortly after 1066 at the Norman subjugation of south-east Wales, and replaced by several small and shifting Marcher lordships, including those of Gwynllwg, which controlled the mountainous area immeadiately west of the River Usk, and Abergavenny to the north. Although these lordships were in the hands of the Normans and their English descendants, the Welsh name of Gwent continued to be unofficially applied to the entire area.
The Act of Union of 1536, whereby the Tudor dynasty extended its rule over Wales as well as England, abolished the lordships and established in their place thirteen shires on the English model. The area which had informally been known as Gwent now became Monmouthshire, with Monmouth as its country town. This disposition proved durable over more than four centuries, and was superseded only in 1974.
Then eight new counties took the place of the former thirteen, taking account of the drastic differences in population which had developed in different parts of Wales as a result of industrialization since the early 19th century. In this reshuffle Monmouthshire was the only one of the thirteen counties to remain an entity, neither subdivided nor amalgamated. Yet, such was the desire to link this administrative change to an emphasis on Welshness, that the virtually unchanged entity had to change its name, and Gwent was reborn. Within the newly named county of Gwent were five new subdivisions: the county borough of Newport and four districts, covering the rural eastern two-thirds of the old county.
Finally, in 1996, the subdivision into five became much more significant when it was made the basis of a single tier of local government. The county of Gwent was abolished, and five unitary authorities were established along the lines of the former districts. Monmouth district was renamed as the county of Monmouthshire. So today Gwent does not officially exist, and Monmouthshire has shrunk to two-thirds its former size. Local loyalty, however, keeps both names alive.
Wales or England?
The question seems to have originated in a provision of the second Act of Union, of 1543, which for legal purposes apportioned twelve of the thirteen Welsh counties to four Welsh circuits, but placed Monmouthshire in the Oxford circuit. The county was also a little more strongly represented in the Westminster Parliament than any other. On this slim foundation it became common to find official references to 'South Wales and Monmouthshire'. and from 1974, under the revived name of Gwent, did it become indisputable that the county was fully a part of Wales.
Nevertheless, as is shown not least by the history of its architecture, the nearness of Bristol had a major effect on the county's economy and culture. Immigration into the county from England has been and continues to be substantial. In the twelfth century the Welsh language has been thoroughly in retreat, much more so than in some other parts of Wales, so that in the 1991 census less thn 3 per cent of the residents of Gwent reported that they could speak Welsh. Today, even among the farming community, West Country accents are more commonly heard than Welsh ones. The anglicizing of Welsh place names has produced more bizarre hybrids here than anywhere else in Wales.
Re: Any Welh historians on here
Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:15 pm
Cheers Nobber 
Re: Any Welh historians on here
Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:56 am
I remember doing a school project on this in 1974 where I argued that Monmouthshire (Gwent) changed Nationality from England to Wales.
My history teacher was impressed but didn't agree, but that was mainly due to the fact that anyone (including me) who was born in the County of Monmouthshire prior to 1974 would arguably be classed as 'English'
My history teacher was impressed but didn't agree, but that was mainly due to the fact that anyone (including me) who was born in the County of Monmouthshire prior to 1974 would arguably be classed as 'English'
Re: Any Welh historians on here
Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:29 pm
Tony Blue Williams wrote:I remember doing a school project on this in 1974 where I argued that Monmouthshire (Gwent) changed Nationality from England to Wales.
My history teacher was impressed but didn't agree, but that was mainly due to the fact that anyone (including me) who was born in the County of Monmouthshire prior to 1974 would arguably be classed as 'English'
Hope so Tony
Got a mad Welsh Rugby Fan in work who i think was born in Monmouthshire. Also a Leeds fan 
and he has a go about me. As i was born in England admittedly but with very strong Welsh ancestry and i have always been a mad Wales Fan since a Kid because it was all i knew. And i want to hit him with that Jack hammer of himself actually being born in England. I know the shame would kill him in work if i hit him with this in a packed mess room. Just need my facts right first
Re: Any Welh historians on here
Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:52 pm
Good Post' good Topic; There's also another similar debate with the original West - Western Wales what is now known as Devon and summer set With Cornwall being the main Welsh hold in that vicinity at the time. To this day Cornish people struggle with being taged as English, and there are still some although not many people in that area that still speak Cornish which is closer to SW Welsh language than SW welsh language is to North Welsh language. Even the names of towns and area's in the Devon area are more Welsh tinted than English (ie) Crowan' Morva' Gwallon' Sennen' Ludgvan-Crowias' Trewellard' Newlyn' Trethewey My favourate Trenowin. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl and chek this for language similarity http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ukrab/elb.htm 
Re: Any Welh historians on here
Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:01 pm
Leighton James Dont Like uS wrote:Good Post' good Topic; There's also another similar debate with the original West - Western Wales what is now known as Devon and summer set With Cornwall being the main Welsh hold in that vicinity at the time. To this day Cornish people struggle with being taged as English, and there are still some although not many people in that area that still speak Cornish which is closer to SW Welsh language than SW welsh language is to North Welsh language. Even the names of towns and area's in the Devon area are more Welsh tinted than English (ie) Crowan' Morva' Gwallon' Sennen' Ludgvan-Crowias' Trewellard' Newlyn' Trethewey My favourate Trenowin. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl and chek this for language similarity http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ukrab/elb.htm
Chief i think in the 9th century Cornwall was the original South Wales