" Cardiff news "

I attended a meeting in Portsmouth last month on behalf of the law group of the FSF...Part of the meeting makes up the following article in which Insp Burrows and Alan Kerslake were part of a top table that also included a civil rights lawyer and the FSF Barrister...it was chaired by a former player of Portsmouth...it is quite a good article

http://www.twohundredpercent.net/?p=16104#more-16104

Police advice on enforcing sitting seems to support Mr Kerslake’s approach. They say that whilst they have every sympathy with stewards trying to enforce the FA regulations, if there is a tipping point where it is likely that disorder will occur then stewards have to stop trying to do so. Safety has to be practical. It would seem that measuring the tipping point is a skill which some stewards do not have.

BTW a very interesting article and there were several points I wished to comment on, but this seemed to be the most topical.

It would appear to me that next time the stewards attempt to impose sitting in the Ninian Stand (or any away ground like Leeds for that matter) fans who are targeted should quote the above.

Yes FA Regulations do state that fans should be seated, but that is overrided by practicality (with Police support) if a 'tipping point' is reached with regard to potential disorder. As citizens fans have every right to express that in their opinion a tipping point has been reached and therefore it is inpractical to sit down.

Providing those fans refrained from using any offensive language towards the stewards they could-not be ejected from the ground for standing. If for any other reason the stewards did attempt to grab hold of any supporter or harrass them to leave, they would almost certainly be committing a criminal offence.

Police advice on enforcing sitting seems to support Mr Kerslake’s approach. They say that whilst they have every sympathy with stewards trying to enforce the FA regulations, if there is a tipping point where it is likely that disorder will occur then stewards have to stop trying to do so. Safety has to be practical. It would seem that measuring the tipping point is a skill which some stewards do not have.

BTW a very interesting article and there were several points I wished to comment on, but this seemed to be the most topical.

It would appear to me that next time the stewards attempt to impose sitting in the Ninian Stand (or any away ground like Leeds for that matter) fans who are targeted should quote the above.

Yes FA Regulations do state that fans should be seated, but that is overrided by practicality (with Police support) if a 'tipping point' is reached with regard to potential disorder. As citizens fans have every right to express that in their opinion a tipping point has been reached and therefore it is inpractical to sit down.

Providing those fans refrained from using any offensive language towards the stewards they could-not be ejected from the ground for standing. If for any other reason the stewards did attempt to grab hold of any supporter or harrass them to leave, they would almost certainly be committing a criminal offence.

so when i ask you to sit down how are you going to make the situation dangerous to make the stewards withdraw
as ive read from your statement
your not going to use offensive language
i assume your not going to start threatening stewards either
so apart from refusing to follow the ground regulations your not doing anything wrong
the issue with this is your thinking far too small
you blaming a guy who earns very little money for decisions made in parliament and the FA by people on lots of money
instead of targeting stewards why dont you aim your protests and complaints a little higher
some stewards are good
some stewards are not so good
but theyve all passed the training set out by the FA
some clubs stewarding policy is relaxed
some clubs run it with an iron fist
this shows inconsistency and is something that annoys me
but trouble starts from the top and works down
so start blaming the foot soldier and start head hunting the generals.

Good article. So are the Club right or legally entitled to cancel or temporarily ban fans for persistent standing.
And if i want to stand at the Cinema that is OK as well

so when i ask you to sit down how are you going to make the situation dangerous to make the stewards withdraw
as ive read from your statement
your not going to use offensive language
i assume your not going to start threatening stewards either
so apart from refusing to follow the ground regulations your not doing anything wrong
the issue with this is your thinking far too small
you blaming a guy who earns very little money for decisions made in parliament and the FA by people on lots of money
instead of targeting stewards why dont you aim your protests and complaints a little higher
some stewards are good
some stewards are not so good
but theyve all passed the training set out by the FA
some clubs stewarding policy is relaxed
some clubs run it with an iron fist
this shows inconsistency and is something that annoys me
but trouble starts from the top and works down
so start blaming the foot soldier and start head hunting the generals.

TBH with you due to my disablity I don't stand much so I never have confrontations with stewards over standing issues. Indeed I always find the stewards at CCS extremely helpful.

The point I am making is, if you have a situation where the sitting regulations are not being implimented consistantly it could easily produce a tipping point for disorder as fans feel picked on or discriminated against (like at Leeds United recently)

When that tipping point is reached, the average fan has a right to point that out and expect the stewards to leave them alone to stand as this would avoid disorder which should be the priority mission of any steward or their supervisors.FA Regulations with full Police support come second to that and IMO any attempt by a steward to remove or harrass a standing supporter who believes a tipping point has been reached may well find they are committing a criminal offence (read the report).

I'm surprised your trainning does-not reflect that view

Talking about stewards. Was that Arthur Daley stewarding at the front of the canton Saturday.

how many away fans have been ejected from ccs for standing

I'm surprised your trainning does-not reflect that view

Why are you surprised Tony? I would say Jonnys training does not include this. Most likely his superiors would not consider it important as their set mind is that most supporters in a ground don't know their rights.

Besides if a supporter does know their rights then enforcing it is a battle in itself. Take my situation with my little girl. I'm getting their with it but it has not been a bed of roses. I reckon it will get more difficult as well. Enforcement in this life is not that easy.

I'm surprised your trainning does-not reflect that view

Why are you surprised Tony? I would say Jonnys training does not include this. Most likely his superiors would not consider it important as their set mind is that most supporters in a ground don't know their rights.

Besides if a supporter does know their rights then enforcing it is a battle in itself. Take my situation with my little girl. I'm getting their with it but it has not been a bed of roses. I reckon it will get more difficult as well. Enforcement in this life is not that easy.

you couldnt be more wrong actually
you would be surprised how often this happens in the ground
as ive stated in previous posts persistent standing is a problem
but it wont get solved over night it takes time
in some games stewards get supporters to sit down
some games supporters make our position untenable so we pull back
supporters have raised this question before
why do the stewards let us stand up in some games and not others
its exactly for this reason
that it gets problematic and in the interests of safety we pull back
My training considers the fact that supporters dont know the rules for attending games so its my duty to inform you on what they are at times
As much sympathy I have for what happened to your daughter its not a stewarding matter this is something you have to raise with the relevant authorities
I credit all the fans the respect they deserve and i hope i get the same respect back
but I will ask for an apology for you stating my training leaves things out or i dont enforce certain parts of my training
that would say i am unprofessional and i resent that because im nothing but professional and i take my job very responsibly

I'm surprised your trainning does-not reflect that view

Why are you surprised Tony? I would say Jonnys training does not include this. Most likely his superiors would not consider it important as their set mind is that most supporters in a ground don't know their rights.

Besides if a supporter does know their rights then enforcing it is a battle in itself. Take my situation with my little girl. I'm getting their with it but it has not been a bed of roses. I reckon it will get more difficult as well. Enforcement in this life is not that easy.

Ian you can't have proper stewarding if the people employed as stewards are not trained properly. The Police themselves would prefer to allow standing if it avoids internecine squabbles between standers and sitters and allows the section to be stewarded appropriately, i.e. the tipping point.

Of course it is not Jonny's fault if he does-not receive the correct training, but it would seem common sense to me that if a supporter quoted his rights and pointed out the official Police line on standing to a steward, then they would withdraw and seek advice from a superior before taking any further action.

I fully agree on enforcement and TBH the supporter might have accept poor treatment at the time and take the matter up via an official compliant after the game, as you have done.

It is never easy doing these things but I strongly believe that individuals should fight these battles even if they seem pointless and frustrating at times.

I'm surprised your trainning does-not reflect that view

Why are you surprised Tony? I would say Jonnys training does not include this. Most likely his superiors would not consider it important as their set mind is that most supporters in a ground don't know their rights.

Besides if a supporter does know their rights then enforcing it is a battle in itself. Take my situation with my little girl. I'm getting their with it but it has not been a bed of roses. I reckon it will get more difficult as well. Enforcement in this life is not that easy.

Ian you can't have proper stewarding if the people employed as stewards are not trained properly. The Police themselves would prefer to allow standing if it avoids internecine squabbles between standers and sitters and allows the section to be stewarded appropriately, i.e. the tipping point.

Of course it is not Jonny's fault if he does-not receive the correct training, but it would seem common sense to me that if a supporter quoted his rights and pointed out the official Police line on standing to a steward, then they would withdraw and seek advice from a superior before taking any further action.

I fully agree on enforcement and TBH the supporter might have accept poor treatment at the time and take the matter up via an official compliant after the game, as you have done.

It is never easy doing these things but I strongly believe that individuals should fight these battles even if they seem pointless and frustrating at times.

i wouldnt criticise my training so quickly its not some idiot making the rules up as he goes along
its an accredited qualification
what lets stewards down is people using their position to cause trouble and a power trip
but this isnt just a problem for stewards
there are other jobs where this is a problem
plus supporters have been known to push their influence around for their own gains

i wouldnt criticise my training so quickly its not some idiot making the rules up as he goes along
its an accredited qualification
what lets stewards down is people using their position to cause trouble and a power trip
but this isnt just a problem for stewards
there are other jobs where this is a problem
plus supporters have been known to push their influence around for their own gains

Jonny with regard to your training I was specifically referring to the official Police advice on standing, not the accreditation.

That said I'm surprised by your judgemental views on some supporters. Surely your training includes instruction not to make judgements about individuals as that can lead to difficulties with regard a range of issues including discrimination and victimisation

i wouldnt criticise my training so quickly its not some idiot making the rules up as he goes along
its an accredited qualification
what lets stewards down is people using their position to cause trouble and a power trip
but this isnt just a problem for stewards
there are other jobs where this is a problem
plus supporters have been known to push their influence around for their own gains

Jonny with regard to your training I was specifically referring to the official Police advice on standing, not the accreditation.

That said I'm surprised by your judgemental views on some supporters. Surely your training includes instruction not to make judgements about individuals as that can lead to difficulties with regard a range of issues including discrimination and victimisation

ive never discriminated or victimised anyone in my life time
and i resent the accusation but the fact stands that some supporters are more influential than others
I have no issue with that fact but it is something you need to aware of
If you have a group of problem supporters if you target the ring leaders the problem goes away far easier and quicker than removing the followers in the situation
this is a hypothetical situation before you start accusing me of other things im not guilty of

Very defensive, aren't we?

Seems no one is allowed an opinion on stewards on this forum without Jonny becoming irate.

Just like standing at the stadium!

Very defensive, aren't we?

Seems no one is allowed an opinion on stewards on this forum without Jonny becoming irate.

Just like standing at the stadium!

no the only thing im getting defensive over is being accused of being
ill trained
unaware of my own training
openly discriminate and happy to victimise people
i post a lot about stewards and stewarding because I am a steward
i read your complaints and i try and give an opinion from the other side of the fence
in the hope that you can read the situation properly
and you can choose a relevant path to pursue your complaint
be it to either drop it or make sure your complaint goes further than an internet message board
i dont see a problem with that
but the time and effort i put in to try and give you our opinions and give you an opportunity to see things from a different angle to be accused of being unprofessional does annoy me
as im sure it would if i started accusing you of being unprofessional in your work place

Cheers Corky