After the arrests today What if !! POLL Read info first.

After today with these Muslim arrests i am putting a scenario together as what if.
Say these Extremists attacked Cardiff's ST Davids centre with machine guns and killed in excess of 100 people but this atrocity could of been avoided had the controversial technique of water boarding been used to extract the information that would of led to the arrest of everyone involved. Would you have been happy that this information was obtained in this manner ? Now as not to influence this Poll none of your family members or Friends was one of the casualties.

The terrorists and those connected deserve what they get but is what if they did this to someone who really didnt know anything? and was innocent?

The terrorists and those connected deserve what they get but is what if they did this to someone who really didnt know anything? and was innocent?

Now that's the risk that is taken Chief and that is what you have to consider when leaving your vote. Would you take tha?t could you live with that?. What would the chances of them getting a complete Joe Blogs of the street and doing that. These intelligence officers are pretty damned good they aint like ordinary plod with footy fans.
Please think about it before voting it can only be yes or no

Yeah but even these guys make mistakes, like that kid they shot in the underground because they thought it was someone else.

The problem is torturing the innocent that the police consider as people with information. Where collusion is proved then yes but in many cases they will torture innocents on the basis of presumed guilt.

Yeah but even these guys make mistakes, like that kid they shot in the underground because they thought it was someone else.

With that info you have to make your choice Chief. I for one are very glad of the work they do to keep these shores safe and a lot of us are glad of the information they gather and really dont want to ask how they obtain it. But really would it matter to you they torture a piece of scum to get it ? but sometimes they might be innocent. Collateral damage i suppose and for the greater good !! YOU DECIDE.

I dont care what they do to the scum of the earth, they deserve what they get but for me its to easy to make mistakes and like all laws it would be abused. Imagine if it was someone you knew and you knew they were innocent yet they still went through this...I suppose in theory the innocent would get it even worse as they wouldnt have anything info to give so they would just keep doing it.

Its a no from me

football fans are banned from football matches before being convicted in a court. there is uproar and outrage at the lack of justice. some Muslim men are arrested (not convicted) and suddenly there is uproar.

thankfully there is full judicial process to go through first before these men are found guilty or otherwise.

and for the record, torture is never acceptable. it is a mark of a society on how it treats its criminals.

A good debate

what about if we pulled out of afghanistan?

would that not put an end ti it all?

The terrorists and those connected deserve what they get but is what if they did this to someone who really didnt know anything? and was innocent?

i think theyd soon realise you didnt know anything, coz if you do youd soon spill the beans

Wander if Dave Jones would admit he was wrong on the tactics he used against the Jacks if he was water boarded ? I wouldn't hold your breath

The terrorists and those connected deserve what they get but is what if they did this to someone who really didnt know anything? and was innocent?

You could make the same argument about prison. Why incarcerate criminals when there is a possibility that mistakes have been made and some inmates might be innocent?

There is also a further argument that the possibility of torture acts as a deterrent?

I find it interesting that a message board that is without fail up in arms about bad policing when it comes to how football fans are treated, is willing to give the same police the power of torture!

The 12 people that been arrested toady are innocent and shall remain innocent until proven guilty, that's what happens in a decent, civilised society.

The emotive argument very often used is - "how would you react if your loved one got killed...".

Well how would these people like it if their, brother, father or son went through waterboarding based on bad police evidence?

After today with these Muslim arrests i am putting a scenario together as what if.
Say these Extremists attacked Cardiff's ST Davids centre with machine guns and killed in excess of 100 people but this atrocity could of been avoided had the controversial technique of water boarding been used to extract the information that would of led to the arrest of everyone involved. Would you have been happy that this information was obtained in this manner ? Now as not to influence this Poll none of your family members or Friends was one of the casualties.

Given your scenario, then definitely yes. Because your suggesting the waterboarding got
the feller to give up information on the terrorists. Your saying he was part of the plot.
Perhaps WITHOUT that treatment he would have happily held out and smiled as hundreds
were shot dead!!!.... So he doesnt deserve to be treated like a human being. f**k him.
Try telling the hundreds of families that you couldnt get the info out of the feller cos the
tickling stick didnt work!

The terrorists and those connected deserve what they get but is what if they did this to someone who really didnt know anything? and was innocent?

You could make the same argument about prison. Why incarcerate criminals when there is a possibility that mistakes have been made and some inmates might be innocent?

There is also a further argument that the possibility of torture acts as a deterrent?

Because with prison there is the chance of appeal, that is why I disagree with capital punishment.

I find it interesting that a message board that is without fail up in arms about bad policing when it comes to how football fans are treated, is willing to give the same police the power of torture!

The 12 people that been arrested toady are innocent and shall remain innocent until proven guilty, that's what happens in a decent, civilised society.

The emotive argument very often used is - "how would you react if your loved one got killed...".

Well how would these people like it if their, brother, father or son went through waterboarding based on bad police evidence?

Yet our decent civilised society can ban people from legally going to a football match for
months, then throw the case out before it goes to court. I think peoples gripe is that these
fellers will be afforded rights that ordinary football fans are not

The terrorists and those connected deserve what they get but is what if they did this to someone who really didnt know anything? and was innocent?

You could make the same argument about prison. Why incarcerate criminals when there is a possibility that mistakes have been made and some inmates might be innocent?

There is also a further argument that the possibility of torture acts as a deterrent?

Because with prison there is the chance of appeal, that is why I disagree with capital punishment.

You would still be in prison whilst awaiting the appeal, so that answer doesn't really stand up.

That said I don't agree with captial punishment either because the state should never have the right to kill anyone no matter what.

I find it interesting that a message board that is without fail up in arms about bad policing when it comes to how football fans are treated, is willing to give the same police the power of torture!

The 12 people that been arrested toady are innocent and shall remain innocent until proven guilty, that's what happens in a decent, civilised society.

The emotive argument very often used is - "how would you react if your loved one got killed...".

Well how would these people like it if their, brother, father or son went through waterboarding based on bad police evidence?

Yet our decent civilised society can ban people from legally going to a football match for
months, then throw the case out before it goes to court. I think peoples gripe is that these
fellers will be afforded rights that ordinary football fans are not

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I find it interesting that a message board that is without fail up in arms about bad policing when it comes to how football fans are treated, is willing to give the same police the power of torture!

The 12 people that been arrested toady are innocent and shall remain innocent until proven guilty, that's what happens in a decent, civilised society.

The emotive argument very often used is - "how would you react if your loved one got killed...".

Well how would these people like it if their, brother, father or son went through waterboarding based on bad police evidence?

Yet our decent civilised society can ban people from legally going to a football match for
months, then throw the case out before it goes to court. I think peoples gripe is that these
fellers will be afforded rights that ordinary football fans are not

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I agree. But you watch the Human Rights lawyers jumping all over this now. The
Police will be watched like f*cking hawks. Potential murderers from Bangladesh
or wherever will be treated with kid gloves.

Meanwhile there are literally hundreds of innocent football fans on 'risk' registers
with banning orders who cant even go for a drink on a Saturday even though they
have never been found guilty of a crime. Who speaks for them (who speaks for us?)

I find it interesting that a message board that is without fail up in arms about bad policing when it comes to how football fans are treated, is willing to give the same police the power of torture!

The 12 people that been arrested toady are innocent and shall remain innocent until proven guilty, that's what happens in a decent, civilised society.

The emotive argument very often used is - "how would you react if your loved one got killed...".

Well how would these people like it if their, brother, father or son went through waterboarding based on bad police evidence?

You can also over egg an answer.

If water boarding was ever to be allowed it is almost certain that authority would have to be sort from the Home Secretary first, who would consider all the known evidence, it simply wouldn’t be an option any old plod could use at will.

You are quite right that the 12 individuals are innocent until proven guilty, but the law must not be seen as harbouring violent criminals. I would fully agree that a confession obtained from water boarding alone would-not be enough to convict.

However, information extracted through water boarding which may lead to hard evidence (such as weapons caches, bank accounts, documentation, planned attacks) which could then lead to a conviction, should be permissible IMO

I find it interesting that a message board that is without fail up in arms about bad policing when it comes to how football fans are treated, is willing to give the same police the power of torture!

The 12 people that been arrested toady are innocent and shall remain innocent until proven guilty, that's what happens in a decent, civilised society.

The emotive argument very often used is - "how would you react if your loved one got killed...".

Well how would these people like it if their, brother, father or son went through waterboarding based on bad police evidence?

Chief you are going slightly off topic with this. But seeing as you bring that up if it was the same people involved in keeping this Country safe as in our local plod in detecting real crime or fitting up football supporters then i would build myself a bunker now and move in. But thank god it isn't these guys have brain cells that actually work . Yes they are inocent untill proven guilty in a court of law. Then and only then should they be slowly drowned in a vat of acid.

I find it interesting that a message board that is without fail up in arms about bad policing when it comes to how football fans are treated, is willing to give the same police the power of torture!

The 12 people that been arrested toady are innocent and shall remain innocent until proven guilty, that's what happens in a decent, civilised society.

The emotive argument very often used is - "how would you react if your loved one got killed...".

Well how would these people like it if their, brother, father or son went through waterboarding based on bad police evidence?

Yet our decent civilised society can ban people from legally going to a football match for
months, then throw the case out before it goes to court. I think peoples gripe is that these
fellers will be afforded rights that ordinary football fans are not

Two wrongs don't make a right.

yes they do

when you are dealing with fanatical extremists you can do what you like to them , they dont care and believe they are going to paradise

all waterboarding would do would make those who are innocent hate the people , the police and the state who did it

and lead to more terrorism

this country has its faults but ON THE WHOLE the best way to deal with this sort of thing is the security services , not shady back street torture

But Sludge it has worked and this technique has saved many lives. The reason that it works with them is the fact they wont let it kill them but the fear and thought of drowning is apparently ever so real. So it works with them and because it might infringe there human rights well to be frank Sludge young man i will let it ruin your day coz i dont give a flying toss about these scum who want to murder us for our way of life.

when you are dealing with fanatical extremists you can do what you like to them , they dont care and believe they are going to paradise

all waterboarding would do would make those who are innocent hate the people , the police and the state who did it

and lead to more terrorism

this country has its faults but ON THE WHOLE the best way to deal with this sort of thing is the security services , not shady back street torture

it aint shady back street torture, its government sponsored torture, its ok, if it saves us from being killed in caroline street im all for it

After today with these Muslim arrests i am putting a scenario together as what if.
Say these Extremists attacked Cardiff's ST Davids centre with machine guns and killed in excess of 100 people but this atrocity could of been avoided had the controversial technique of water boarding been used to extract the information that would of led to the arrest of everyone involved. Would you have been happy that this information was obtained in this manner ? Now as not to influence this Poll none of your family members or Friends was one of the casualties.

Not a chance! The rack is much better fun and saves water. How much is a 300ml bottle of Evian these days? Know what I mean?

The question you really got to ask though is why they would want to, then address the problem at source,

After today with these Muslim arrests i am putting a scenario together as what if.
Say these Extremists attacked Cardiff's ST Davids centre with machine guns and killed in excess of 100 people but this atrocity could of been avoided had the controversial technique of water boarding been used to extract the information that would of led to the arrest of everyone involved. Would you have been happy that this information was obtained in this manner ? Now as not to influence this Poll none of your family members or Friends was one of the casualties.

Not a chance! The rack is much better fun and saves water. How much is a 300ml bottle of Evian these days? Know what I mean?

The question you really got to ask though is why they would want to, then address the problem at source,

Then do it with a couple of cans of Bow only 37p a can. Happy days

Yeah but even these guys make mistakes, like that kid they shot in the underground because they thought it was someone else.

great shout it should never be allowed!

But Sludge it has worked and this technique has saved many lives. The reason that it works with them is the fact they wont let it kill them but the fear and thought of drowning is apparently ever so real. So it works with them and because it might infringe there human rights well to be frank Sludge young man i will let it ruin your day coz i dont give a flying toss about these scum who want to murder us for our way of life.

over 110,000 iraqis [66,000 civilians] have been killed since the start of our "so called" war on terror. who`s murdering who here and changing peoples way of lifes? ... my life is the same and so is yours, their life in iraq is a living hell!