UPDATED: MY VIEW: WHY VT MAY NOT BE THE MAN

UPDATED:

1: Tans current net worth is £550M.
2: Losses of £450M from his football bets or an aggregate net loss.





Tans only interest in us, is exiting and making at least of some of his money back. He wants out. His family wants him out. It's been a bad bet.

But he can't write it off as the stake he's put in represents a third of his families wealth as it stands.

And the reality is that his total losses are almost equal to his whole family business wealth.

1: His current net worth is £550M.
2: Losses of £450M from his football bets or an aggregate net loss.

So he ideally wants the £250M+ back from us plus the £200 from his football or aggregate losses to being him back up to where he was.

I'm sure he's got plenty more squirreled away that is non reported son that may come into play. But as it stands from what we know publically, that's the reality of what's going on.

Just my opinion though but that's my take on it. And I also think it explains the reason for the EB delay. Stick or twist etc as VT likes to gamble and as reported in the latest news as to his current aspirations in the industry that Berjaya and the Malaysian PM/FM are trying to deny despite Bloomberg reporting it.

It seems that "Lucky Red" was very revealing and indeed not so "lucky" after all.







I posted a topic called "OFFICIAL - CCFC: PRECARIOUS POSITION AS A GOING CONCERN" which has resulted in a lot of healthy debate. We are the best City Forum for that reason; and to be very clear, this is not an anti or pro anything post. It is simply my own personal view on the status quo and what is best for Cardiff City FC.



viewtopic.php?f=2&t=239209



My intention wasto be balanced, unbiased, unsentimental, pragmatic and also more importantly, to be based on facts because we are all rightly concerned about the future of our club.

Specifically, someone had posted the following, which is a very valid view and one I also understand. I'll quote it below with my thoughts for reference, as it is a common theme and understandably so:

There are three massive assumptions from the anti-Tan Brigade, i.e. "a new owner will be better, they will bring more money in, and they will accept a £10m+ loss per season".

To be clear, I am not pro-Tan and would like an owner with a plan; but we need to look before we leap.

The information and views I have posted in response to all the things I've said before and does warrant another separate post for discussion, as people want to talk about it and it was somewhat 'buried' in the original OP.

Here are my thoughts, along with some links for reference:

These are my thoughts:

1: "A new owner will be better.":

A new owner would have course have to be better. If they were worse then it would be pointless to change, as we would be worse off than we are. And VT has said that when he sells, we will be in a better position than when he bought us and it will be to a 'suitable' owner, to presumably continue the good work.

We don't necessarily have to have a new owner to be better, we just need better decisions to be made. But let's be clear, Tan and his family want out, their present focus is the gambling business, have a look at the latest news on it, as it's worth $100BN a year.

$100BN per year potential sounds incredible doesn't it? But that's what it is and if I was VT, that's where I would be focusing too, and especially if my football portfolio "bet" was failing:

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/categ ... pirations/

This is worth a scan too if you want a bit more insight, as to background, sequence of events and ambitions;

https://www.dimsumdaily.hk/tycoon-vince ... e-country/


2: "Bring more money.":

That would be nice but it's not realistic, at this point anyway. We just need to be more effective with a sensible budget and not see it wasted ultimately by making poor decisions, as in Point 1.


3: "Accept a 10m plus a year loss".

Most clubs make a loss. The question is by how much and how do you operate for growth and service against it as a "going concern'?. And given that, there are clubs in better positions than us operating at a loss. So why not us?

I'm not pro-Tan or anti-Tan. I'm pro Cardiff. Owners come and go, as so managers and players. That's life.

I don't care who the owner is as long as our club reaches it's sustainable realistic potential; which we haven't and won't if the status quo remains.


For reference, see the original thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=239209

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Paul,

It’s true Tans family want him out away from Cardiff City, their is NO interest from any of them but they want him to concentrate
on his own businesses as they have been struggling big time.

Tan also wants out from Cardiff and his Belgium club this is true, no mater what his PA’s Dalman or Morgan say.


Paul what you say below is spot on:

We don't necessarily have to have a new owner to be better, we just need better decisions to be made. But let's be clear, Tan and his family want out, their present focus is the gambling business, have a look at the latest news on it, as it's worth $100BN a year.

$100BN per year potential sounds incredible doesn't it? But that's what it is and if I was VT, that's where I would be focusing too, and especially if my football portfolio "bet" was failing:

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Paul,

I love Cardiff City like you and many others and we want what’s best for OUR Club and Tan is not and we are 15 years later NO better off and further in debt and chaos behind the scenes once again.


Some will say all clubs are in the same position etc which is crazy, as it US we are concerned about, not them.

Heads in the sand, clueless and will blindly accept the current situation as they think all clubs are the same. We should be where the likes of Brighton are now, actually better. There's are no excuses and this could all change tomorrow with a phone call.

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Paul,

We don’t have ago at the Club as the Club is Ours as without Fans their is NO Club, we live and breath Cardiff City.

We were a toy to Tan, now he is bored of us and I believe he needs to cut his asking price considerably as £200mill is our madness.

Certain people are missing the whole point by a country mile, as little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


We know most clubs like a lot of businesses are run on debt that has to be serviced.

What they are somehow missing is the level of growing liability compared to Tans wealth and the omission of his being guarantor etc as this goes up.

Comments about the last 15 years in other threads are clueless as the picture has worsened to the point of what's been stated in both reports and also Tan not addressing it by a statement, which causes doubt.

I just feel we have come to a stalemate over all this.

Tan wants out but he is not going to budge unless his price is matched. Although Tan is struggling in the business world he can still afford to keep us going using the FFP rules as a guideline. We might have to drop a league to make that more comfortable for him but he will not care about that.

So guys its more of the Status Quo as we all look forward to the new season with its wows. We went into last season with Dalman is charge and running the show, I believe that was the plan Tan talked about on his last visit. Well if talk is right about what is coming out of the boardroom then it feels like its all change. Tbh I've given up trying to work out what is best. For me let them get on with it.

I just feel we have come to a stalemate over all this.

Tan wants out but he is not going to budge unless his price is matched. Although Tan is struggling in the business world he can still afford to keep us going using the FFP rules as a guideline. We might have to drop a league to make that more comfortable for him but he will not care about that.

So guys its more of the Status Quo as we all look forward to the new season with its wows. We went into last season with Dalman is charge and running the show, I believe that was the plan Tan talked about on his last visit. Well if talk is right about what is coming out of the boardroom then it feels like its all change. Tbh I've given up trying to work out what is best. For me let them get on with it.

Correct Ian,

It is stalemate.

But don’t forget we are now charged £6mill a year in interest and it’s in the accounts for anyone who disputes this.

And remember I said this the accounts out next year will see us charged even more interest.

What happened to Our Club being Debt Free with in a few years, said on numerous times , yet 15 yrs later more debt and guess what we were told don’t worry as it’s all owed to Tan, but that’s total shite as nearly £30mill to Dalman which will show in next years accounts and a Company we know which is charging us interest as well.

Paul,

It’s true Tans family want him out away from Cardiff City, their is NO interest from any of them but they want him to concentrate
on his own businesses as they have been struggling big time.

Tan also wants out from Cardiff and his Belgium club this is true, no mater what his PA’s Dalman or Morgan say.


Paul what you say below is spot on:

We don't necessarily have to have a new owner to be better, we just need better decisions to be made. But let's be clear, Tan and his family want out, their present focus is the gambling business, have a look at the latest news on it, as it's worth $100BN a year.

$100BN per year potential sounds incredible doesn't it? But that's what it is and if I was VT, that's where I would be focusing too, and especially if my football portfolio "bet" was failing:

Annis,

It's important I think for people to research VT to understand his mindset and why Cardiff is not his focus and hasn't been for a number of years. And we've seen the results of that.

And again, this is not anti Tan as in terms of our club, all he has to do is change the management structure, bring expertise in and let the board function properly. But if he continues in the same way as he has, he will get precisely the same results. And the big black hole gets deeper and harder to climb out of as there are concerns about him raising funding if certain forecasted scenarios happen.

Here's an extract from the link below, it's worth scanning the link content as it paints a picture of how he operates. And it's not great. And as his football 'bets' have cost him dearly so he wants out and his main focus is now his domestic market, which makes absolute sense;

FOOTBALL PORTFOLIO BETS:
BY 2012, Vincent Tan had retired from Corporate Malaysia, and ventured into Europe's football scene in the ensuring years by acquiring football clubs in the United Kingdom, Sarajevo and in Belgium.

THOSE bets in Europe, proved costly to Vincent Tan, as in less than 11 years, he had lost more than US$600 million of his fortune. READ : Forbes now estimates Vincent Tan Chee Yioun to be worth US$695 million.

MAIN FOCUS IS NOW THE $100BN CASINO INDUSTRY:
TUN Mahathir's, re-emergence as Prime Minister in 2020 seem to be God send for Vincent Tan Chee Yioun on a personal level, while on the business front, it seemed ripe for another run on corporate Malaysia.

https://nuclearmanbursa.blogspot.com/20 ... x.html?m=1

Paul,

It’s true Tans family want him out away from Cardiff City, their is NO interest from any of them but they want him to concentrate
on his own businesses as they have been struggling big time.

Tan also wants out from Cardiff and his Belgium club this is true, no mater what his PA’s Dalman or Morgan say.


Paul what you say below is spot on:

We don't necessarily have to have a new owner to be better, we just need better decisions to be made. But let's be clear, Tan and his family want out, their present focus is the gambling business, have a look at the latest news on it, as it's worth $100BN a year.

$100BN per year potential sounds incredible doesn't it? But that's what it is and if I was VT, that's where I would be focusing too, and especially if my football portfolio "bet" was failing:

Annis,

It's important I think for people to research VT to understand his mindset and why Cardiff is not his focus and hasn't been for a number of years. And we've seen the results of that.

And again, this is not anti Tan as in terms of our club, all he has to do is change the management structure, bring expertise in and let the board function properly. But if he continues in the same way as he has, he will get precisely the same results. And the big black hole gets deeper and harder to climb out of as there are concerns about him raising funding if certain forecasted scenarios happen.

Here's an extract from the link below, it's worth scanning the link content as it paints a picture of how he operates. And it's not great. And as his football 'bets' have cost him dearly so he wants out and his main focus is now his domestic market, which makes absolute sense;

FOOTBALL PORTFOLIO BETS:
BY 2012, Vincent Tan had retired from Corporate Malaysia, and ventured into Europe's football scene in the ensuring years by acquiring football clubs in the United Kingdom, Sarajevo and in Belgium.

THOSE bets in Europe, proved costly to Vincent Tan, as in less than 11 years, he had lost more than US$600 million of his fortune. READ : Forbes now estimates Vincent Tan Chee Yioun to be worth US$695 million.

MAIN FOCUS IS NOW THE $100BN CASINO INDUSTRY:
TUN Mahathir's, re-emergence as Prime Minister in 2020 seem to be God send for Vincent Tan Chee Yioun on a personal level, while on the business front, it seemed ripe for another run on corporate Malaysia.

https://nuclearmanbursa.blogspot.com/20 ... x.html?m=1

Absolutely Paul,

Many need to realise Tans world.

All us fans want is what’s best for OUR Club and an Owner who cares and puts us a priority.

This is another very interesting and enlightening OP from GrangeEndStar, who articulates both his feelings and points very well...

I initially thought the relative lack of response, particularly the opposers, was a little odd; until I considered what had been written and backed up with real examples, which then made it difficult to oppose in its substance...

For me, these are valid reasons the owner needs to be challenged on his intentions...

This is another very interesting and enlightening OP from GrangeEndStar, who articulates both his feelings and points very well...

I initially thought the relative lack of response, particularly the opposers, was a little odd; until I considered what had been written and backed up with real examples, which then made it difficult to oppose in its substance...

For me, these are valid reasons the owner needs to be challenged on his intentions...

Sven - we all want the same thing and it is possible even with VT still at the helm but he has to accept he has to change, of he will just get the same failed outcomes and worse from his football portfolio "bets".

1: FOOTBALL PORTFOLIO BETS:
BY 2012, Vincent Tan had retired from Corporate Malaysia, and ventured into Europe's football scene in the ensuring years by acquiring football clubs in the United Kingdom, Sarajevo and in Belgium.

Those bets in Europe, proved costly to Vincent Tan, as in less than 11 years, he had lost more than US$600 million of his fortune. READ : Forbes now estimates Vincent Tan Chee Yioun to be worth US$695 million.

2: MAIN FOCUS IS NOW THE $100BN CASINO INDUSTRY:
Tun Mahathir's, re-emergence as Prime Minister in 2020 seem to be God send for Vincent Tan Chee Yioun on a personal level, while on the business front, it seemed ripe for another run on corporate Malaysia.

https://nuclearmanbursa.blogspot.com/20 ... x.html?m=1

3: ⬆️So, if the above is true from the link posted above, it means that VT has lost £450M from his football bets. Or if it's an aggregate loss, it's still significant.

For comparison, his current net worth is £550M.

So it's almost double the £250M he wants back from us.

Even if we get positive news tomorrow on the again ridiculous EB situation, budget confirmation and actual plan, all of the above still remains. And it drives everything that we will do for the foreseeable future unless there is a fundamental change.

And that change could happen with a phone call.

Either something or someone can reignite his interest, but that would him controlling even more and being more involved

Or

He sells with us still in the championship which would constitute a failure in his eyes.

To make things even more difficult, he’s employed two charlatans who work less than one day a week at the club and don’t live in Wales (Choo and Dalman)

It’s an impossible position to be in really.

Either something or someone can reignite his interest, but that would him controlling even more and being more involved

Or

He sells with us still in the championship which would constitute a failure in his eyes.

To make things even more difficult, he’s employed two charlatans who work less than one day a week at the club and don’t live in Wales (Choo and Dalman)

It’s an impossible position to be in really.

You are right.

His only interest in us is exiting and making at least of some of his money back. He wants out. His family wants him out. It's been a bad bet.

But he can't write it off as the stake he's put in represents a third of his families wealth as it stands.

And the reality is that his total losses are almost equal to his whole family business wealth.

1: His current net worth is £550M.
2: Losses of £450M from his football bets or an aggregate net loss.

So he ideally wants the £250M+ back from us plus the £200 from his football or aggregate losses to being him back up to where he was.

I'm sure he's got plenty more squirreled away that is non reported son that may come into play. But as it stands from what we know publically, that's the reality of what's going on.

Just my opinion though but that's my take on it. And I also think it explains the reason for the EB delay. Stick or twist etc as VT likes to gamble and as reported in the latest news as to his current aspirations in the industry that Berjaya and the Malaysian PM/FM are trying to deny despite Bloomberg reporting it.

It seems that "Lucky Red" was very revealing and indeed not so "lucky" after all.

Not many replies Grangendstar to a lot of good stuff you’ve written and the truth you’ve written:



Tans only interest in us, is exiting and making at least of some of his money back. He wants out. His family wants him out. It's been a bad bet.

But he can't write it off as the stake he's put in represents a third of his families wealth as it stands.

And the reality is that his total losses are almost equal to his whole family business wealth.

1: His current net worth is £550M.
2: Losses of £450M from his football bets or an aggregate net loss.

So he ideally wants the £250M+ back from us plus the £200 from his football or aggregate losses to being him back up to where he was.

I'm sure he's got plenty more squirreled away that is non reported son that may come into play. But as it stands from what we know publically, that's the reality of what's going on.

Just my opinion though but that's my take on it. And I also think it explains the reason for the EB delay. Stick or twist etc as VT likes to gamble and as reported in the latest news as to his current aspirations in the industry that Berjaya and the Malaysian PM/FM are trying to deny despite Bloomberg reporting it.

It seems that "Lucky Red" was very revealing and indeed not so "lucky" after all.

If he has lost £450M then this may also explain why he has continued to pursue compensation for loss of monies from Nantes, etc …..

If he has lost £450M then this may also explain why he has continued to pursue compensation for loss of monies from Nantes, etc …..

It's certainly a big driver and also part of why he's so litigious. He's lost half his net worth. And I don't blame him for pursuing Nantes and for all the right reasons.

And if we win that case, there is no guarantee that money will go into the club although it could buy some more chips for another PL "bet'.

If he has lost £450M then this may also explain why he has continued to pursue compensation for loss of monies from Nantes, etc …..

It's certainly a big driver and also part of why he's so litigious. He's lost half his net worth. And I don't blame him for pursuing Nantes and for all the right reasons.

And if we win that case, there is no guarantee that money will go into the club although it could buy some more chips for another PL "bet'.

Paul,

After reading all your posts this last week, I can see Tans is getting deeper in trouble.

He needa us in the prem for a few seasons then he can get his money back .Other than that i personally can never see anyone paying that for us .
If he gets an invester in to protect a share of his money that would go into a Premier league promotion then that would make sense.
Where he is he is stuck in a rut isnt he .Sell now and loose out or add more money and maybe get it all back .
Thats the only decision i see myself to be honest .
I wouldn't want to be him .i always say i feel for him but a lot of it has been his own mistakes and his own lose .
He never listens to anyone doea he mans a bloody nightmare.
Could of been very different with the smallest of changes we could still be in the prem.
We went there twice all he needed to do was stay there

The thing is where does it end the longer he holds on the worse off he's going to be.

So he either pumps money in and goes for broke to get us promoted or just take the best offer?

I can't help but feel if this drags on for a season or two more we might be as a club screwed because of it.

It seems like the new season is going to be shit the way everything is being dragged with the manager future signings etc etc

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Excellent written piece, so is his in his make up to just throw good money after bad and hope the ball lands on right number and colour on the roulette wheel that is CCFC ?

The guy is such a failure in football and will continue to make the same errors year after year.

Always read the forum and excellent debates lads.

I’m anti tan, in my opinion the club has gone backwards, and next season we will struggle big time. Summer is coming up, we have no official manager, no plan in place. The man has lost interest in his toy a long time ago and we are just keeping our heads above water.

Tan is loosing massive amounts in this club, through stubbornness, bad management and being totally naive to the footballing world.

If you was a businessman in a multimillion pound industry would you employ two people to work one or two days a week? (Who actually runs the club day by day?)

There’s a minuscule part of me that feels sorry for Tan as he’s lost money and is out of his depth.

Then I remember the rebrand and the fact that he’s done absolutely nothing to change his misfortune and has stubbornly ploughed the same field over and over again, hoping for a different outcome.

Tan could still make something out of this club but he’s too stubborn, arrogant and stuck in his ways to do so. Tan out

There’s a minuscule part of me that feels sorry for Tan as he’s lost money and is out of his depth.

Then I remember the rebrand and the fact that he’s done absolutely nothing to change his misfortune and has stubbornly ploughed the same field over and over again, hoping for a different outcome.

Tan could still make something out of this club but he’s too stubborn, arrogant and stuck in his ways to do so. Tan out

The man could have had all the love and respect his culture yearns for IF ONLY he had listened in the beginning. DoF would have been good start .

Always read the forum and excellent debates lads.

I’m anti tan, in my opinion the club has gone backwards, and next season we will struggle big time. Summer is coming up, we have no official manager, no plan in place. The man has lost interest in his toy a long time ago and we are just keeping our heads above water.

Tan is loosing massive amounts in this club, through stubbornness, bad management and being totally naive to the footballing world.

If you was a businessman in a multimillion pound industry would you employ two people to work one or two days a week? (Who actually runs the club day by day?)

Choo seems an excellent type for delegating, his idea of day to day running of the club is telling his team leaders what to do from his London base. Then again its not his money he's spending.