Problems with our club.

I’ve been supporting Cardiff since I was 13 and my Uncle took me on the Bob bank, I’m now 44 years old. The running of the club, and match day experience has changed a lot since then.

A few of the root causes of our current situation are as follows (in my opinion), and I’d like to make that clear, this is my opinion on why things are the way they are.

1. Vincent Tan and the board.

I don’t think there is a fan amongst us that truly believes this club is run in a healthy manner. The rifts that the rebrand caused are still bubbling under the surface. Warnock did a great job of uniting the fanbase behind the cause but as soon as there is a downturn in form, the “Tan out” brigade start again. I will add that I’m a ringleader of that group, as I believe he should have been hounded out of OUR club a long time ago. The current situation is sadly going to remain until we get a buyer for the club and that’s a distant dream at the moment with Tan being so stubborn and us not being an attractive prospect to investors.

Poor communication, lying to fans, the stubborn attitude, making the same mistakes time and time again, the list is endless.

2. We’ve lost our identity.

We’ve lost it on and off the pitch for me. We haven’t got a recognised style of play, haven’t got a type of player we are looking to recruit. We just flit from freebie and loan to freebie and loan, papering over the cracks.

Off the pitch, our crowds are dwindling, people are prioritising other things over the football, we haven’t got an identity or anything for people to buy into it we are a business at the end of the day and don’t seem to want to attract new customers or keep the current ones happy.

3. That leads nicely into the match day experience.

It’s rubbish, the food and drink are overpriced, the atmosphere is awful (apart from the derbies). Some stewards are over zealous, and the team rarely give us anything to shout about.

4. The fans

I really think we need to look at what we can control and not absolve ourselves of any responsibility. We can try to make the atmospheres at home games better, we can support the team better than we do.

Premier league visits have turned us into a more entitled, moaning bunch of fans that demand success. We need patience with the players and the manager, as they are in an awkward situation too.

I’m rambling a bit now but wanted to get my thoughts out of my head.

Ultimately for me, it will be hard to change a lot of these things while Tan and the board are in place, as they are the rot that needs cutting out first, but we need to try to do the best with what we’ve got.

What can we as fans focus on and control? If we concentrate on getting that right we’ll all feel much better.

Superb post.

Underhill, I doubt many will disagree with much or any of what you wrote.

I have no idea how Tan leaves.

I believe when he first invested he believed he could sell us on at a profit whilst visibly enjoying the limelight, then he got hooked and wasted millions making some very poor decisions. I think Malky and subsequent managers have taught him not to trust football people as the game is very dodgy and the litigation we are going through at the moment doubles down on that.

Valuations are crazy at the top of the game, but the likelihood of sharing that money is only a dream. If WBA are only worth £60 mill then i have no idea what someone will be willing to buy us for.

Thats the problem, no sign of change

I agree with most of that, but don’t accept we can use the rebrand as any excuse. Yes it was a mistake, but it’s long gone now and confined to history. No point harping back to something that’s been reversed many years ago, and if anyone is using it as an excuse not to go anymore would have found another excuse by now anyway.

I agree with most of that, but don’t accept we can use the rebrand as any excuse. Yes it was a mistake, but it’s long gone now and confined to history. No point harping back to something that’s been reversed many years ago, and if anyone is using it as an excuse not to go anymore would have found another excuse by now anyway.

It would be dangerous to underestimate the negative impact that decision has had on many people, including me.

It still casts a horrible dark shadow over anything the club does under Tans ownership

Great post and agree with all of that . Our experience over the decades will be similar. I started to go regular in 98 and I’m also 44 in a few weeks.

About football more generally, there’s an amazing few min clip doing the rounds on WhatsApp from 1994 where some guys talk about / predict the detrimental impact tv will have on the game .

It’s 30 years ago but they’re bang on , talk about the ‘real fans ‘ becoming insignificant to even the top clubs given the tv money involved and crowds only being required as a backdrop to the game . They talk about how football has moved to becoming more a commodity which resonates to Tans ‘cinema ‘ experience interview from about 10 years ago.

The games gone for me , c.15 games a year including the Welsh games and a Merthyr game is my lot .

Ps VAR is a joke too

I agree with most of that, but don’t accept we can use the rebrand as any excuse. Yes it was a mistake, but it’s long gone now and confined to history. No point harping back to something that’s been reversed many years ago, and if anyone is using it as an excuse not to go anymore would have found another excuse by now anyway.

The rebrand has not been reversed at all. There is a constant reminder of it with those red seats and the wiggly worm on the crest. When you walk into a dark room and turn on the light all darkness vanishes. You don't see bits of darkness hanging from the light bulb or from the walls, its all gone. As for the Rebrand we don't have that.

Back to the OP and what a great post by Simon.

As fans we can only support the team on match day and get behind them. I'm proud of our away support but got to say we can do a lot better at home. I'm judging our home support between now and the 70s. I still picture the gang of "lads" at the back of the Grangend leading the singing and this was when we were on our way down to the dungeon leagues. That spirit is not there anymore.

How can we get that back I just don't know. putting a drummer there didn't work at all. Perhaps we need some of the old school to come out of retirement and strut their stuff.

Simon, So much truth in your Topic.

You have said so much that is wrong with our club and your so spot on.

The Club is a shambles, Totally run by Clowns.

But there are a few who actually Support Tan NO matter, identity Stripped, Bullshit, Court Cases, lies after lies and even got our so called Trust who are suppose to be for our fans and stand with us, backing him as long as they get their monthly meetings and first hand bullshit given to them.

From Tan to all his clowns they all need to go.

Simon i agree with everything you said nothing will change until tan and his clowns leave the club.

Last October time I honestly thought we had turned the corner

Good results on the pitch, a manager who seemed to have a plan, transfer embargo about to end

Off the pitch slightly better communication, impressive new academy building completed, Sala insurance claim sorted

Tan coming over for a visit seemed to be a positive sign

5 months later and we are back to square one with a disappointing transfer window and the team in disarray and yet more lies and bullshit from the heirachy

Bulut has turned out to be a very poor manager who is unable to stop the rot and Tan, Dalman and Choo yet again gone AWOL when strong leadership needed

Until Tan sells up and fcuks off back Malaysia we are just going to stumble from one crisis to another

It’s getting boring now

I’ve been supporting Cardiff since I was 13 and my Uncle took me on the Bob bank, I’m now 44 years old. The running of the club, and match day experience has changed a lot since then.

A few of the root causes of our current situation are as follows (in my opinion), and I’d like to make that clear, this is my opinion on why things are the way they are.

1. Vincent Tan and the board.

I don’t think there is a fan amongst us that truly believes this club is run in a healthy manner. The rifts that the rebrand caused are still bubbling under the surface. Warnock did a great job of uniting the fanbase behind the cause but as soon as there is a downturn in form, the “Tan out” brigade start again. I will add that I’m a ringleader of that group, as I believe he should have been hounded out of OUR club a long time ago. The current situation is sadly going to remain until we get a buyer for the club and that’s a distant dream at the moment with Tan being so stubborn and us not being an attractive prospect to investors.

Poor communication, lying to fans, the stubborn attitude, making the same mistakes time and time again, the list is endless.

2. We’ve lost our identity.

We’ve lost it on and off the pitch for me. We haven’t got a recognised style of play, haven’t got a type of player we are looking to recruit. We just flit from freebie and loan to freebie and loan, papering over the cracks.

Off the pitch, our crowds are dwindling, people are prioritising other things over the football, we haven’t got an identity or anything for people to buy into it we are a business at the end of the day and don’t seem to want to attract new customers or keep the current ones happy.

3. That leads nicely into the match day experience.

It’s rubbish, the food and drink are overpriced, the atmosphere is awful (apart from the derbies). Some stewards are over zealous, and the team rarely give us anything to shout about.

4. The fans

I really think we need to look at what we can control and not absolve ourselves of any responsibility. We can try to make the atmospheres at home games better, we can support the team better than we do.

Premier league visits have turned us into a more entitled, moaning bunch of fans that demand success. We need patience with the players and the manager, as they are in an awkward situation too.

I’m rambling a bit now but wanted to get my thoughts out of my head.

Ultimately for me, it will be hard to change a lot of these things while Tan and the board are in place, as they are the rot that needs cutting out first, but we need to try to do the best with what we’ve got.

What can we as fans focus on and control? If we concentrate on getting that right we’ll all feel much better.

Fantastic post, all your points are valid and spot on, Its at the point now where the owner has to go to give this club a reset and fresh start.

Great Post, nail on the head.

I agree with most of that, but don’t accept we can use the rebrand as any excuse. Yes it was a mistake, but it’s long gone now and confined to history. No point harping back to something that’s been reversed many years ago, and if anyone is using it as an excuse not to go anymore would have found another excuse by now anyway.

The rebrand has not been reversed at all. There is a constant reminder of it with those red seats and the wiggly worm on the crest. When you walk into a dark room and turn on the light all darkness vanishes. You don't see bits of darkness hanging from the light bulb or from the walls, its all gone. As for the Rebrand we don't have that.

Oh come on, the top tier seats are now an excuse? I’m not a fan of the dragon but we all know at some point it will be changed once Tan has moved on. Back in Sam’s disastrous ownership the dragon was taken off the badge completely but I don’t remember people using that as an excuse not to support the team.
The truth is too many people want a reason not to go anymore so at least be honest enough so say it and not blame things that in the scheme of life are pretty minor.

Whilst in broad terms I cannot disagree with your overall post I do believe that The club has tried to address some of the issues regarding the management of the "Football side" of the club over the course of this season.
Back in the Summer whilst still under the transfer embargo they went out and recruited a foreign coach which was not a cheap option which was the case over the previous season, that I personally thought was a step in the right direction. At a time when championship managers are are being sacked all over the place (17 sackings since the start of the season) leaving us with 8th longest serving manager in this division!
The Summer recruitment seamed to be a reasonable attempt to develop a Squad to be competitive even under the embargo, unfortunately I think we had to pay over the odds on loan players due to the embargo and unfortunately we were not able to off loan enough of the deadwood, all of which has caused issues as far as FFP was concerned hence the issues which seam to have impacted on the January Window.
So for once I have say that the current difficulties seam to be down to the Manager not being able to achieve the performances and results that were expected at this point.
Its my opinion that Bulut has run out of road and Dalman/Tan/Board will have to sack him with immediate effect, thankfully there is only 3 months left on his contract so the cost of removal of Bulut and his staff is not as painful for the club. We live in an era when longevity of Football managers is a rare commodity.
For me the Dream team would be Cooper & Roberts

I agree with most of that, but don’t accept we can use the rebrand as any excuse. Yes it was a mistake, but it’s long gone now and confined to history. No point harping back to something that’s been reversed many years ago, and if anyone is using it as an excuse not to go anymore would have found another excuse by now anyway.

The rebrand has not been reversed at all. There is a constant reminder of it with those red seats and the wiggly worm on the crest. When you walk into a dark room and turn on the light all darkness vanishes. You don't see bits of darkness hanging from the light bulb or from the walls, its all gone. As for the Rebrand we don't have that.

Oh come on, the top tier seats are now an excuse? I’m not a fan of the dragon but we all know at some point it will be changed once Tan has moved on. Back in Sam’s disastrous ownership the dragon was taken off the badge completely but I don’t remember people using that as an excuse not to support the team.
The truth is too many people want a reason not to go anymore so at least be honest enough so say it and not blame things that in the scheme of life are pretty minor.

The top tier is an ugly reminder of the Rebrand. If Tan wanted to show remorse about the Rebrand he would have replace them. Its no excuse to whinge about them as this is Tan throwing his teddy out of his pram because we rejected his vision.

I agree with most of that, but don’t accept we can use the rebrand as any excuse. Yes it was a mistake, but it’s long gone now and confined to history. No point harping back to something that’s been reversed many years ago, and if anyone is using it as an excuse not to go anymore would have found another excuse by now anyway.

The rebrand has not been reversed at all. There is a constant reminder of it with those red seats and the wiggly worm on the crest. When you walk into a dark room and turn on the light all darkness vanishes. You don't see bits of darkness hanging from the light bulb or from the walls, its all gone. As for the Rebrand we don't have that.

Oh come on, the top tier seats are now an excuse? I’m not a fan of the dragon but we all know at some point it will be changed once Tan has moved on. Back in Sam’s disastrous ownership the dragon was taken off the badge completely but I don’t remember people using that as an excuse not to support the team.
The truth is too many people want a reason not to go anymore so at least be honest enough so say it and not blame things that in the scheme of life are pretty minor.

The top tier is an ugly reminder of the Rebrand. If Tan wanted to show remorse about the Rebrand he would have replace them. Its no excuse to whinge about them as this is Tan throwing his teddy out of his pram because we rejected his vision.

What the hell has that got to do with a dip in form since December

I agree with most of that, but don’t accept we can use the rebrand as any excuse. Yes it was a mistake, but it’s long gone now and confined to history. No point harping back to something that’s been reversed many years ago, and if anyone is using it as an excuse not to go anymore would have found another excuse by now anyway.

The rebrand has not been reversed at all. There is a constant reminder of it with those red seats and the wiggly worm on the crest. When you walk into a dark room and turn on the light all darkness vanishes. You don't see bits of darkness hanging from the light bulb or from the walls, its all gone. As for the Rebrand we don't have that.

Oh come on, the top tier seats are now an excuse? I’m not a fan of the dragon but we all know at some point it will be changed once Tan has moved on. Back in Sam’s disastrous ownership the dragon was taken off the badge completely but I don’t remember people using that as an excuse not to support the team.
The truth is too many people want a reason not to go anymore so at least be honest enough so say it and not blame things that in the scheme of life are pretty minor.

The top tier is an ugly reminder of the Rebrand. If Tan wanted to show remorse about the Rebrand he would have replace them. Its no excuse to whinge about them as this is Tan throwing his teddy out of his pram because we rejected his vision.

What the hell has that got to do with a dip in form since December

This thread is about the problems with the club.

I’ve been supporting Cardiff since I was 13 and my Uncle took me on the Bob bank, I’m now 44 years old. The running of the club, and match day experience has changed a lot since then.

A few of the root causes of our current situation are as follows (in my opinion), and I’d like to make that clear, this is my opinion on why things are the way they are.

1. Vincent Tan and the board.

I don’t think there is a fan amongst us that truly believes this club is run in a healthy manner. The rifts that the rebrand caused are still bubbling under the surface. Warnock did a great job of uniting the fanbase behind the cause but as soon as there is a downturn in form, the “Tan out” brigade start again. I will add that I’m a ringleader of that group, as I believe he should have been hounded out of OUR club a long time ago. The current situation is sadly going to remain until we get a buyer for the club and that’s a distant dream at the moment with Tan being so stubborn and us not being an attractive prospect to investors.

Poor communication, lying to fans, the stubborn attitude, making the same mistakes time and time again, the list is endless.

2. We’ve lost our identity.

We’ve lost it on and off the pitch for me. We haven’t got a recognised style of play, haven’t got a type of player we are looking to recruit. We just flit from freebie and loan to freebie and loan, papering over the cracks.

Off the pitch, our crowds are dwindling, people are prioritising other things over the football, we haven’t got an identity or anything for people to buy into it we are a business at the end of the day and don’t seem to want to attract new customers or keep the current ones happy.

3. That leads nicely into the match day experience.

It’s rubbish, the food and drink are overpriced, the atmosphere is awful (apart from the derbies). Some stewards are over zealous, and the team rarely give us anything to shout about.

4. The fans

I really think we need to look at what we can control and not absolve ourselves of any responsibility. We can try to make the atmospheres at home games better, we can support the team better than we do.

Premier league visits have turned us into a more entitled, moaning bunch of fans that demand success. We need patience with the players and the manager, as they are in an awkward situation too.

I’m rambling a bit now but wanted to get my thoughts out of my head.

Ultimately for me, it will be hard to change a lot of these things while Tan and the board are in place, as they are the rot that needs cutting out first, but we need to try to do the best with what we’ve got.

What can we as fans focus on and control? If we concentrate on getting that right we’ll all feel much better.

More or less spot on mate, I’m 48 and been going since ‘92/93 season. I too class myself in the Tan Out ringleaders as I strongly believe the issue ultimately lies there. I’ve more or less said the same as you on several other topics the past few days.

I also believe we need to move the Tan Out protests to the next stage as all we are doing is going round in circles talking about it between here, Facebook and X. People say ohhh protest inside the ground affect the players.’looking at other clubs protests inside the ground don’t affect players, they’re there to do a job and there’s no hardship chanting to the board as well as supporting the boys (back 2 blue is the prime example). Protested need to happen inside and outside for the board to take note we’re unhappy. If it gets into the media the Tan will also take note.

As you said though nothing will get done under this owner and board

Whilst in broad terms I cannot disagree with your overall post I do believe that The club has tried to address some of the issues regarding the management of the "Football side" of the club over the course of this season.
Back in the Summer whilst still under the transfer embargo they went out and recruited a foreign coach which was not a cheap option which was the case over the previous season, that I personally thought was a step in the right direction. At a time when championship managers are are being sacked all over the place (17 sackings since the start of the season) leaving us with 8th longest serving manager in this division!
The Summer recruitment seamed to be a reasonable attempt to develop a Squad to be competitive even under the embargo, unfortunately I think we had to pay over the odds on loan players due to the embargo and unfortunately we were not able to off loan enough of the deadwood, all of which has caused issues as far as FFP was concerned hence the issues which seam to have impacted on the January Window.
So for once I have say that the current difficulties seam to be down to the Manager not being able to achieve the performances and results that were expected at this point.
Its my opinion that Bulut has run out of road and Dalman/Tan/Board will have to sack him with immediate effect, thankfully there is only 3 months left on his contract so the cost of removal of Bulut and his staff is not as painful for the club. We live in an era when longevity of Football managers is a rare commodity.
For me the Dream team would be Cooper & Roberts

I too have lost patience with Bulut and agree our current system is down to him. I believe he could be getting much better out if this group of players.

I’ve been supporting Cardiff since I was 13 and my Uncle took me on the Bob bank, I’m now 44 years old. The running of the club, and match day experience has changed a lot since then.

A few of the root causes of our current situation are as follows (in my opinion), and I’d like to make that clear, this is my opinion on why things are the way they are.

1. Vincent Tan and the board.

I don’t think there is a fan amongst us that truly believes this club is run in a healthy manner. The rifts that the rebrand caused are still bubbling under the surface. Warnock did a great job of uniting the fanbase behind the cause but as soon as there is a downturn in form, the “Tan out” brigade start again. I will add that I’m a ringleader of that group, as I believe he should have been hounded out of OUR club a long time ago. The current situation is sadly going to remain until we get a buyer for the club and that’s a distant dream at the moment with Tan being so stubborn and us not being an attractive prospect to investors.

Poor communication, lying to fans, the stubborn attitude, making the same mistakes time and time again, the list is endless.

2. We’ve lost our identity.

We’ve lost it on and off the pitch for me. We haven’t got a recognised style of play, haven’t got a type of player we are looking to recruit. We just flit from freebie and loan to freebie and loan, papering over the cracks.

Off the pitch, our crowds are dwindling, people are prioritising other things over the football, we haven’t got an identity or anything for people to buy into it we are a business at the end of the day and don’t seem to want to attract new customers or keep the current ones happy.

3. That leads nicely into the match day experience.

It’s rubbish, the food and drink are overpriced, the atmosphere is awful (apart from the derbies). Some stewards are over zealous, and the team rarely give us anything to shout about.

4. The fans

I really think we need to look at what we can control and not absolve ourselves of any responsibility. We can try to make the atmospheres at home games better, we can support the team better than we do.

Premier league visits have turned us into a more entitled, moaning bunch of fans that demand success. We need patience with the players and the manager, as they are in an awkward situation too.

I’m rambling a bit now but wanted to get my thoughts out of my head.

Ultimately for me, it will be hard to change a lot of these things while Tan and the board are in place, as they are the rot that needs cutting out first, but we need to try to do the best with what we’ve got.

What can we as fans focus on and control? If we concentrate on getting that right we’ll all feel much better.

More or less spot on mate, I’m 48 and been going since ‘92/93 season. I too class myself in the Tan Out ringleaders as I strongly believe the issue ultimately lies there. I’ve more or less said the same as you on several other topics the past few days.

I also believe we need to move the Tan Out protests to the next stage as all we are doing is going round in circles talking about it between here, Facebook and X. People say ohhh protest inside the ground affect the players.’looking at other clubs protests inside the ground don’t affect players, they’re there to do a job and there’s no hardship chanting to the board as well as supporting the boys (back 2 blue is the prime example). Protested need to happen inside and outside for the board to take note we’re unhappy. If it gets into the media the Tan will also take note.

As you said though nothing will get done under this owner and board

I’d love for the protests to ramp up but don’t think our fanbase has enough about them to follow it through, and it’s too late in the day now sadly.

I fear that our only way out of this is for a buyer but I don’t see where that is coming from.

Whilst in broad terms I cannot disagree with your overall post I do believe that The club has tried to address some of the issues regarding the management of the "Football side" of the club over the course of this season.
Back in the Summer whilst still under the transfer embargo they went out and recruited a foreign coach which was not a cheap option which was the case over the previous season, that I personally thought was a step in the right direction. At a time when championship managers are are being sacked all over the place (17 sackings since the start of the season) leaving us with 8th longest serving manager in this division!
The Summer recruitment seamed to be a reasonable attempt to develop a Squad to be competitive even under the embargo, unfortunately I think we had to pay over the odds on loan players due to the embargo and unfortunately we were not able to off loan enough of the deadwood, all of which has caused issues as far as FFP was concerned hence the issues which seam to have impacted on the January Window.
So for once I have say that the current difficulties seam to be down to the Manager not being able to achieve the performances and results that were expected at this point.
Its my opinion that Bulut has run out of road and Dalman/Tan/Board will have to sack him with immediate effect, thankfully there is only 3 months left on his contract so the cost of removal of Bulut and his staff is not as painful for the club. We live in an era when longevity of Football managers is a rare commodity.
For me the Dream team would be Cooper & Roberts

Agree

This is exactly what is the problem.

Totally agree with you with all points. Our fan base is so fickle and entitled that the problem will always be the manager and on-field success, failing to see the true underlying problem.

The “back to promotion challenge” has to be a long-term plan, the squad needs a couple of seasons, academy needs revamping, rebuilding the fanbase.

This is exactly what is the problem.

Totally agree with you with all points. Our fan base is so fickle and entitled that the problem will always be the manager and on-field success, failing to see the true underlying problem.

The “back to promotion challenge” has to be a long-term plan, the squad needs a couple of seasons, academy needs revamping, rebuilding the fanbase.

All those red years ago, Tan was correct. If the product is right then the punters will turn up, and the old fans will be replaced with new one.........One massive flaw in the plan, "the product". Five seasons after the lowest budget in the premier league we still have FFP issues !!!!!

I only renewed two hours before the first early bird prices ended. I think our fan base has changed, so instead of protests we just don't renew. Its excuse after excuse. I am so disappointed with the winter transfer window. The manager got rid of some of the previous dross but not enough to make a difference.

We'll get enough points over the next four games to be safe, but the club doesn't deserve loyalty the way it treats its fans, sorry customers

This is exactly what is the problem.

Totally agree with you with all points. Our fan base is so fickle and entitled that the problem will always be the manager and on-field success, failing to see the true underlying problem.

The “back to promotion challenge” has to be a long-term plan, the squad needs a couple of seasons, academy needs revamping, rebuilding the fanbase.

All those red years ago, Tan was correct. If the product is right then the punters will turn up, and the old fans will be replaced with new one.........One massive flaw in the plan, "the product". Five seasons after the lowest budget in the premier league we still have FFP issues !!!!!

I only renewed two hours before the first early bird prices ended. I think our fan base has changed, so instead of protests we just don't renew. Its excuse after excuse. I am so disappointed with the winter transfer window. The manager got rid of some of the previous dross but not enough to make a difference.

We'll get enough points over the next four games to be safe, but the club doesn't deserve loyalty the way it treats its fans, sorry customers

Definitely, the fans need to point their concerns to the club itself.

Sorting the beer out is critical. Watching turds is easier with a nice half time pint.

Then nail on the head regards identity.

What is "the Cardiff City way", anyone know?

Sorting the beer out is critical. Watching turds is easier with a nice half time pint.

Then nail on the head regards identity.

What is "the Cardiff City way", anyone know?

Sack a manager, get a new one in, off load players at a cut price to reduce wage bill, replace with feee agents/loan players - #The CardiffWay

Great post Simon! I dream of a day where we get our badge back and a blue stadium. It may not be everyone’s priority, but to me the seats and the worm are a constant reminder of that horrible period where we were a laughing stock. We could easily cover the red seats with blue covering costing peanuts. Again that’s just my preference. Then we can start getting the atmosphere back and start getting the fans in early and keep them from leaving early. Happy hour and get the band back after the game. The football decisions are huge but for me let’s start be making the day enjoyable again. I used to enjoy division 3 win or lose we had a laugh. Changing the family stand would also help but I can never see that happening.