‘ The Valuation of Cardiff City ‘

‘ AFTER THE HIGH COURT CASE / THE JUDGES VALUATION AND TWO EXPERTS ‘



No digs at anyone just how our club is valued at:


Valuation of CCFC :

One very interesting and significant byproduct of the Isaac case is that the judge valued the Club at £23 million …… and this valuation was more or less what the two expert valuers representing the Club and Isaac agreed with.



THIS VALUATION WAS IN 2018 !!! Since then we have been relegated and accumulated a hell of a lot of more losses .

So what the hell …… because of our debt we are now worth a big fat ZERO ?

This is interesting , because Tan almost wants out ….. but at his acceptable price . So what is acceptable ?

Will he write off all what he put in ….in order to stop further losses ?


Has he taken the wage bill to a very low level whereby we have no more ‘real losses’ ? …


Chairman Dalman insinuated that we should have no more losses now ….or very little.


Is Tan hoping that Morison can get us to the PL ….and then he will sell ?


There are buyers out there and City have received quite a few potential buyers in recent years.



Clearly because our losses now are manageable Tan can sit it out for a few years and sell when he is happy to .



There is definite interest in buying CCFC but so far Tan has held fon .


The Sala case ‘May’ have an effect because while the Club allowed for it in the accounts ….. the outcome on this case might decide on a future buyer or how the club proceeds in the future.
Will there be fines / costs running in to £millions etc or if we win will this money be used to strengthen the quad etc??



These are general observations that are worth discussing ….with varied opinions .










He valued Cardiff fc ‘IN THE PREMIERE LEAGUE” at £163 million . Minus the then debt if £138 million and came up with the figure if £25.8 million ( I erroneously write £23 million). Of course our debt grew more since then and we have also been relegated . Technically the Club is therefore worthless !! That is why Tan was arguing that the Club shares are worthless ‘now’ ….but the judge ruled that the valuation should be in 2018 for the purpose of the Isaac case .




Today, we are not in the PL . We are not worth the big amount . Also the debt is not all to Tan ….in last year’s accounts 25-30% was not to Tan.

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Annis

I noticed that as well and I think it just goes to show that people buy football clubs for a lot more than they are actually worth

As you say the Judgment valued us at £23m and that was in 2018

But if you have a look at the data on Company Check

[url]https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04044254/CARDIFF-CITY-FOOTBALL-CLUB-HOLDINGS-LIMITED/financials
[/url]

You will see that Cardiff City had a value of:

May 2018: £-22.9m
May 2019: £-34.9m
May 2020: £-48.2m
May 2021: £-46.4m

and that, in 2017, our liabilities were ONLY £36m wheras in 2018 they increased to £115m and have only reduced by £6m (to £109m) by May 2021.

A few years ago I was told that the club had an interested consortium from South Africa & somewhere in the Americas (Being purposely vague)

I was told that they were looking to purchase the club for a figure attributable to other clubs who had recently sold and were a top 6 championship side.

I was told that VT valued the club in excess of £100m and for that reason it didnt happen.

Annis What part of the club is worth 23m? Not stadium nor players be interesting to know what is actually worth 23m? If your previous figures on debt is anywhere near correct tan will have to take massive hit if club only worth 23m and debt is much higher than that.. no wonder tan wont sell unless offer is enough to cover debts...certainly wont sell for 23m ..

Annis

I noticed that as well and I think it just goes to show that people buy football clubs for a lot more than they are actually worth

As you say the Judgment valued us at £23m and that was in 2018

But if you have a look at the data on Company Check

[url]https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04044254/CARDIFF-CITY-FOOTBALL-CLUB-HOLDINGS-LIMITED/financials
[/url]

You will see that Cardiff City had a value of:

May 2018: £-22.9m
May 2019: £-34.9m
May 2020: £-48.2m
May 2021: £-46.4m

and that, in 2017, our liabilities were ONLY £36m wheras in 2018 they increased to £115m and have only reduced by £6m (to £109m) by May 2021.

A few years ago I was told that the club had an interested consortium from South Africa & somewhere in the Americas (Being purposely vague)

I was told that they were looking to purchase the club for a figure attributable to other clubs who had recently sold and were a top 6 championship side.

I was told that VT valued the club in excess of £100m and for that reason it didnt happen.

Paul

No I was not aware about the South African but yes about SuperTed . There are also at least another.

Also really the club is currently worth zero.

‘ AFTER THE HIGH COURT CASE / THE JUDGES VALUATION AND TWO EXPERTS ‘



No digs at anyone just how our club is valued at:


Valuation of CCFC :

One very interesting and significant byproduct of the Isaac case is that the judge valued the Club at £23 million …… and this valuation was more or less what the two expert valuers representing the Club and Isaac agreed with.



THIS VALUATION WAS IN 2018 !!! Since then we have been relegated and accumulated a hell of a lot of more losses .

So what the hell …… because of our debt we are now worth a big fat ZERO ?

This is interesting , because Tan almost wants out ….. but at his acceptable price . So what is acceptable ?

Will he write off all what he put in ….in order to stop further losses ?


Has he taken the wage bill to a very low level whereby we have no more ‘real losses’ ? …


Chairman Dalman insinuated that we should have no more losses now ….or very little.


Is Tan hoping that Morison can get us to the PL ….and then he will sell ?


There are buyers out there and City have received quite a few potential buyers in recent years.



Clearly because our losses now are manageable Tan can sit it out for a few years and sell when he is happy to .



There is definite interest in buying CCFC but so far Tan has held fon .


The Sala case ‘May’ have an effect because while the Club allowed for it in the accounts ….. the outcome on this case might decide on a future buyer or how the club proceeds in the future.
Will there be fines / costs running in to £millions etc or if we win will this money be used to strengthen the quad etc??



These are general observations that are worth discussing ….with varied opinions .

A private share value is what ever a person or company wants to pay for it its totally different to a stock exchange valuation,there are many variables, the stadium as an asset is worth a lot more than 23 million so the whole club including the stadium is worth a lot more than 23 million .

Annis What part of the club is worth 23m? Not stadium nor players be interesting to know what is actually worth 23m? If your previous figures on debt is anywhere near correct tan will have to take massive hit if club only worth 23m and debt is much higher than that.. no wonder tan wont sell unless offer is enough to cover debts...certainly wont sell for 23m ..

Allan,

Read the Judges / two valuation reports in the documents


THIS VALUATION WAS IN 2018 !!! Since then we have been relegated and accumulated a hell of a lot of more losses .

So what the hell …… because of our debt we are now worth a big fat ZERO ?


Allan, the Club was valued at £23 million by the judge as it was in 2018 ……. When we were in the Premiere League . He valued the Club at much more than that …… but he deducted the debt …… and that is how he got to this figure .

Now all these debts have been run up over the last 12 years by the current board, the club realistically is currently worst zero.

‘ AFTER THE HIGH COURT CASE / THE JUDGES VALUATION AND TWO EXPERTS ‘



No digs at anyone just how our club is valued at:


Valuation of CCFC :

One very interesting and significant byproduct of the Isaac case is that the judge valued the Club at £23 million …… and this valuation was more or less what the two expert valuers representing the Club and Isaac agreed with.



THIS VALUATION WAS IN 2018 !!! Since then we have been relegated and accumulated a hell of a lot of more losses .

So what the hell …… because of our debt we are now worth a big fat ZERO ?

This is interesting , because Tan almost wants out ….. but at his acceptable price . So what is acceptable ?

Will he write off all what he put in ….in order to stop further losses ?


Has he taken the wage bill to a very low level whereby we have no more ‘real losses’ ? …


Chairman Dalman insinuated that we should have no more losses now ….or very little.


Is Tan hoping that Morison can get us to the PL ….and then he will sell ?


There are buyers out there and City have received quite a few potential buyers in recent years.



Clearly because our losses now are manageable Tan can sit it out for a few years and sell when he is happy to .



There is definite interest in buying CCFC but so far Tan has held fon .


The Sala case ‘May’ have an effect because while the Club allowed for it in the accounts ….. the outcome on this case might decide on a future buyer or how the club proceeds in the future.
Will there be fines / costs running in to £millions etc or if we win will this money be used to strengthen the quad etc??



These are general observations that are worth discussing ….with varied opinions .

A private share value is what ever a person or company wants to pay for it its totally different to a stock exchange valuation,there are many variables, the stadium as an asset is worth a lot more than 23 million so the whole club including the stadium is worth a lot more than 23 million .

Wez,

So you know no more than the Judge and two specialists brought in?

Of course it can be worth more if someone will pay more and and that’s why our club is not sold.

You know and I know there are buyers out there, but why pay big money for a club worth zero?

Wez,


He valued Cardiff fc ‘IN THE PREMIERE LEAGUE” at £163 million . Minus the then debt if £138 million and came up with the figure if £25.8 million ( I erroneously write £23 million). Of course our debt grew more since then and we have also been relegated . Technically the Club is therefore worthless !! That is why Tan was arguing that the Club shares are worthless ‘now’ ….but the judge ruled that the valuation should be in 2018 for the purpose of the Isaac case .

Annis

I noticed that as well and I think it just goes to show that people buy football clubs for a lot more than they are actually worth

As you say the Judgment valued us at £23m and that was in 2018

But if you have a look at the data on Company Check

[url]https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04044254/CARDIFF-CITY-FOOTBALL-CLUB-HOLDINGS-LIMITED/financials
[/url]

You will see that Cardiff City had a value of:

May 2018: £-22.9m
May 2019: £-34.9m
May 2020: £-48.2m
May 2021: £-46.4m

and that, in 2017, our liabilities were ONLY £36m wheras in 2018 they increased to £115m and have only reduced by £6m (to £109m) by May 2021.

A few years ago I was told that the club had an interested consortium from South Africa & somewhere in the Americas (Being purposely vague)

I was told that they were looking to purchase the club for a figure attributable to other clubs who had recently sold and were a top 6 championship side.

I was told that VT valued the club in excess of £100m and for that reason it didnt happen.

Paul

No I was not aware about the South African but yes about SuperTed . There are also at least another.

Also really the club is currently worth zero.

How can you say the club is worth zero ? .your a business man you know that Tan will write off his debt and take a cash amount at time of sale ,if its true the books are now balanced, I can see us being worth 80 to 100 million what ever the debt is means nothing to the new owners coz they would be starting a fresh bascaly debt free, Derby were sold for a total of nearly 80 million recently in total club and stadium and they were in a worse position than us ,in administration. We are an attractive club ,the infrastructure at the club us top class ,training Facilities, stadium etc

Annis

I noticed that as well and I think it just goes to show that people buy football clubs for a lot more than they are actually worth

As you say the Judgment valued us at £23m and that was in 2018

But if you have a look at the data on Company Check

[url]https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04044254/CARDIFF-CITY-FOOTBALL-CLUB-HOLDINGS-LIMITED/financials
[/url]

You will see that Cardiff City had a value of:

May 2018: £-22.9m
May 2019: £-34.9m
May 2020: £-48.2m
May 2021: £-46.4m

and that, in 2017, our liabilities were ONLY £36m wheras in 2018 they increased to £115m and have only reduced by £6m (to £109m) by May 2021.

A few years ago I was told that the club had an interested consortium from South Africa & somewhere in the Americas (Being purposely vague)

I was told that they were looking to purchase the club for a figure attributable to other clubs who had recently sold and were a top 6 championship side.

I was told that VT valued the club in excess of £100m and for that reason it didnt happen.

Paul

No I was not aware about the South African but yes about SuperTed . There are also at least another.

Also really the club is currently worth zero.

How can you say the club is worth zero ? .your a business man you know that Tan will write off his debt and take a cash amount at time of sale ,if its true the books are now balanced, I can see us being worth 80 to 100 million what ever the debt is means nothing to the new owners coz they would be starting a fresh bascaly debt free, Derby were sold for a total of nearly 80 million recently in total club and stadium and they were in a worse position than us ,in administration. We are an attractive club ,the infrastructure at the club us top class ,training Facilities, stadium etc

Actually Tan told the court that.


Wez,


He valued Cardiff fc ‘IN THE PREMIERE LEAGUE” at £163 million . Minus the then debt if £138 million and came up with the figure if £25.8 million ( I erroneously write £23 million). Of course our debt grew more since then and we have also been relegated . Technically the Club is therefore worthless !! That is why Tan was arguing that the Club shares are worthless ‘now’ ….but the judge ruled that the valuation should be in 2018 for the purpose of the Isaac case .

Wez,


He valued Cardiff fc ‘IN THE PREMIERE LEAGUE” at £163 million . Minus the then debt if £138 million and came up with the figure if £25.8 million ( I erroneously write £23 million). Of course our debt grew more since then and we have also been relegated . Technically the Club is therefore worthless !! That is why Tan was arguing that the Club shares are worthless ‘now’ ….but the judge ruled that the valuation should be in 2018 for the purpose of the Isaac case .

But the debt is the owners ? To himself ,he owns all shares ,he owns all securities on the bases you are saying it's worth 163 million coz he could call the debt in to himself ?

Wez,


He valued Cardiff fc ‘IN THE PREMIERE LEAGUE” at £163 million . Minus the then debt if £138 million and came up with the figure if £25.8 million ( I erroneously write £23 million). Of course our debt grew more since then and we have also been relegated . Technically the Club is therefore worthless !! That is why Tan was arguing that the Club shares are worthless ‘now’ ….but the judge ruled that the valuation should be in 2018 for the purpose of the Isaac case .

But the debt is the owners ? To himself ,he owns all shares ,he owns all securities on the bases you are saying it's worth 163 million coz he could call the debt in to himself ?

I give up on you Wez,

Just read the whole court case, then come back to me. Read what the Judge said and the two specialists accountants

Tan told judge club worth zero


Wez, today we are not in the PL . We are not worth the big amount . Also the debt is not all to Tan ….in last year’s accounts 25-30% was not to Tan.

Annis What part of the club is worth 23m? Not stadium nor players be interesting to know what is actually worth 23m? If your previous figures on debt is anywhere near correct tan will have to take massive hit if club only worth 23m and debt is much higher than that.. no wonder tan wont sell unless offer is enough to cover debts...certainly wont sell for 23m ..

Allan,

Read the Judges / two valuation reports in the documents


THIS VALUATION WAS IN 2018 !!! Since then we have been relegated and accumulated a hell of a lot of more losses .

So what the hell …… because of our debt we are now worth a big fat ZERO ?


Allan, the Club was valued at £23 million by the judge as it was in 2018 ……. When we were in the Premiere League . He valued the Club at much more than that …… but he deducted the debt …… and that is how he got to this figure .

Now all these debts have been run up over the last 12 years by the current board, the club realistically is currently worst zero.

I suppose if it's worth zero people wanting to buy club will only pay peanuts for it? Or 23m if take valuation at face value.... would you sell your buisness like that and take a multi million pound hit regardless of how debt was incurred? I'm no accountant but stadium worth far in access of 45m that needs consideration and guess players will be same? Most clubs are bought well above their supposed value ... only tan knows why wouldn't sell to previous people could it be that they wanted to buy it for 23m as that's what it is supposedly worth?? At end day you buy a club debt and all not just what its valued at.

Strange this because both of your point of views stand up.

The Club is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. Anything else is conceptual.

The thing here is that the stadium maybe worth a lot of money and the playing staff maybe worth around £10m (not my figures) but when you value the whole club, including the debt on the balance sheet, the club is not worth much at all.

I understand the argument about the stadium and let me put it this way.

If you are buying a house and it has a lovely bathroom but the rest of the house is derelict - you are not going to buy the bathroom alone. Just as any purchaser wouldnt be buying the stadium alone.

I remember Gerald Ratner once regarding his jewellry as worthless and look what happened there!

If VT really does value us as worthless then he can hardly expect to sell us for any more than £50m in my opinion.

Aren't these valuations just inclusive or exclusive of debt? Therefore both sides of the arguement are correct?

£23 million (in 2018) or zero now, buys you a club with the current debt and a stadium of value.

Or

Say, £100 million buys you a club free of debt.

It's all the same...... its debt that skews the opinions. The judge had to include the debt in valuation as IIT is just that... a VALUATION and not a SALE PRICE.

Of course the club is worth millions. Tell me how much and how long it would take to start a club and get it to the championship?

Also in an area where there's no major clubs like they have in London

So, is the value of the club less than it was when it was purchased bu the regime?

And if it is.... then what mismanagement has taken place considering the riches gained from Premier years.

The saleable value of the club will have gone up as a result of today.

Any interested parties will be able to see that we can challenge for a Premier League place with a little investment.

The saleable value of the club will have gone up as a result of today.

Any interested parties will be able to see that we can challenge for a Premier League place with a little investment.

This factor will come in after 10 games.

The saleable value of the club will have gone up as a result of today.

Any interested parties will be able to see that we can challenge for a Premier League place with a little investment.

After 1 win? Don’t get carried away after today

I'm not an accountant, just a payroll clerk, but for me any football club is not based on "valuations" or P&L accounts.....it's valued on "potential".

When you factor the word "potential" into CCFC you start looking at a very big picture. So any buyer will take this into account and then weigh up the "potential" value against the Owner's asking price.

Whilst I haven't got a big issue is someone claiming the club is worth "zero" on a piece of paper we all know that if somebody wants to buy it they will have to pay for the outstanding debts (mainly what Tan is owed) and any others.

Therefore whilst on a balance sheet the club may be worth zero, if you want to buy it you'll have to pay Tan the money that he's owed, or owns in shares, so all a bit of a technical argument rather than a real one !!

Happy to be corrected as I'm no expert in company accounts but that looks like the simplest way of summarising things.

Aren't these valuations just inclusive or exclusive of debt? Therefore both sides of the arguement are correct?

£23 million (in 2018) or zero now, buys you a club with the current debt and a stadium of value.

Or

Say, £100 million buys you a club free of debt.

It's all the same...... its debt that skews the opinions. The judge had to include the debt in valuation as IIT is just that... a VALUATION and not a SALE PRICE.

Agree