" The biggest problem with our style "

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" The biggest problem with our style "

Postby worcester_ccfc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:14 am

It's generally known that we have one style of football. That's to compete in the air and make the most of set pieces. Yes, we will score the odd goal playing attractive football like Colwill's second on Sunday, but these will be few and far between.

It also relies on the team being extremely physical and that's the biggest problem with it, in terms of doing well.

Outfield players like Flint, Morrison, Nelson, Pack and Moore are a key part of that system. This also means they are all automatic starters, when fit.

We will have games when we get results, but we will also have games when it is totally ineffective - like it was tonight.

It is impossible for the players to perform these tactics to a high level when we have games Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday or Sunday-Wednesday-Saturday.

That's because we are relying on a large amount of players to play every game. They can't perform to a high level every game, when we play such physical football.

If we were playing slick passing football, it wouldn't be as much of an issue because we would be relying less on physicality.



But it is not as easy to change our style of play as some seem to think.

We have been a set piece team and a physical team for many years now and it's is ingrained in these players to play like it.

If you look at Flint, Morrison and Pack on particular. They simply would not be able to suddenly start playing a passing game.

In fact, I think we've gone the other way and become more physical this season for that exact reason.

People didn't mind it so much when Warnock got us promoted. That shows to me that fans in general don't care what the style is like if it's successful - you only have to look at Burnley to prove that.

But there is an argument that we have now gone too physical and that is very difficult to be successful with.



I keep hearing that the club want to bring through the young players like Colwill, Harris, Bowen and Evans so we can use this as a transition season.

But the issue is we should also then be trying to change our style of play this season. There is no sign of that happening because it is very difficult for it to happen.

We don't really have any alternatives to our big, physical players. Therefore we will continue to play this physical way.



It's all well and good trying to bring through young players who can play well with the ball at their feet, but they'll never be playing like that for the first team.



It is a massive problem we have and it's been selected for many years and under many different regimes of management.

The last manager we had who played the genuinely attractive football that would suit these young players coming through, was Dave Jones.

He left ten years ago.



If we want to compete to get back to the Premier League and stay there, then we have to change the style because football has moved on a lot from teams like ours.

How that is going to happen with our current squad, I have no idea.



It's just another reasons we need more footballing people on the board and advising all the non-footballing people we have.

Until that happens, we will always be a mid table Championship club who get into the play offs every now and then but don't have any sustained success.

As more years go on, this style will eventually be totally ineffective at this level and we will be in serious threat of being relegated at some point.

That won't be this season but we really do need to start work on it in the first team before it's too late.

These things will take time and I'm not sure the club actually know what they're doing.
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" The biggest problem with our style "

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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby bluesince62 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:56 am

worcester_ccfc wrote:It's generally known that we have one style of football. That's to compete in the air and make the most of set pieces. Yes, we will score the odd goal playing attractive football like Colwill's second on Sunday, but these will be few and far between.

It also relies on the team being extremely physical and that's the biggest problem with it, in terms of doing well.

Outfield players like Flint, Morrison, Nelson, Pack and Moore are a key part of that system. This also means they are all automatic starters, when fit.

We will have games when we get results, but we will also have games when it is totally ineffective - like it was tonight.

It is impossible for the players to perform these tactics to a high level when we have games Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday or Sunday-Wednesday-Saturday.

That's because we are relying on a large amount of players to play every game. They can't perform to a high level every game, when we play such physical football.

If we were playing slick passing football, it wouldn't be as much of an issue because we would be relying less on physicality.



But it is not as easy to change our style of play as some seem to think.

We have been a set piece team and a physical team for many years now and it's is ingrained in these players to play like it.

If you look at Flint, Morrison and Pack on particular. They simply would not be able to suddenly start playing a passing game.

In fact, I think we've gone the other way and become more physical this season for that exact reason.

People didn't mind it so much when Warnock got us promoted. That shows to me that fans in general don't care what the style is like if it's successful - you only have to look at Burnley to prove that.

But there is an argument that we have now gone too physical and that is very difficult to be successful with.



I keep hearing that the club want to bring through the young players like Colwill, Harris, Bowen and Evans so we can use this as a transition season.

But the issue is we should also then be trying to change our style of play this season. There is no sign of that happening because it is very difficult for it to happen.

We don't really have any alternatives to our big, physical players. Therefore we will continue to play this physical way.



It's all well and good trying to bring through young players who can play well with the ball at their feet, but they'll never be playing like that for the first team.



It is a massive problem we have and it's been selected for many years and under many different regimes of management.

The last manager we had who played the genuinely attractive football that would suit these young players coming through, was Dave Jones.

He left ten years ago.



If we want to compete to get back to the Premier League and stay there, then we have to change the style because football has moved on a lot from teams like ours.

How that is going to happen with our current squad, I have no idea.



It's just another reasons we need more footballing people on the board and advising all the non-footballing people we have.

Until that happens, we will always be a mid table Championship club who get into the play offs every now and then but don't have any sustained success.

As more years go on, this style will eventually be totally ineffective at this level and we will be in serious threat of being relegated at some point.

That won't be this season but we really do need to start work on it in the first team before it's too late.

These things will take time and I'm not sure the club actually know what they're doing.




Great post mate :thumbup: strangely enough I've said pretty much the same on another topic (the youngsters) we have an opportunity imho, with the effects of covid hitting the majority of teams hard, to evolve our style somewhat, or we will as you say get"played" out of this division! We have been afforded a good opportunity to regroup /build, whilst still I the 2nd tier, rather than have to, after being relegated to a lower league? As a club, we have to grip this opportunity with both hands, as it won't be possible to sustain our status here! I said as much regards the rigours of championship football, and especially for the youngsters, some of whom have also been playing for their country too :shock:
Do you believe this will happen under MM? I can't see any evidence it will to date, in fact I have concerns he will mould these youngsters into the style we have at present, imho, stunting their growth as footballers, I'm pretty sure they don't want to play this way? How can they? :ayatollah: :old: :bluebird:
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby boyo1927 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:19 am

Reall Good post I do think Pack is actually one of the few players at times who tries to keep the ball and seek a pass more than others.

My choice of manager was always Bellamy with a long term aim to change the style. This would mean the likes of morrison and Flint would need to leave with ball playing g centre backs crucial to a more passing game.

I think so of the youth we have acty are decent enough to play a passing game but will never develop as our game is based on set piece and long throws. Sam bowen and keiron Evans will just get by passed

However it's hard to say mick is doing a poor job when you look at the results.

Do we want to evolve along with the development of youth. If so a change of style is need soon before the conflict of route one and youth un dos all the potential that is obvious to see
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby Blueman39 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:25 am

Completely agree.... we rarely , if ever, dominate possession so teams who play a passing game will simply play past us and having such a physically big side then works against us.
I think the majority of fans would accept a transitional season if we saw that we were trying to change our style of play by embedding new players who can actually pass the ball on the floor.
The problem is that we neither have a plan B nor quality players who can change a game.
Youngsters with potential is great but they need time and a style that will devolop their game otherwise you may as well keep playing hoof football to giants.
The results are masking some poor performances so far this season so in the long term, we look like a mid / lower table team imo
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby AfricanBluebird » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:33 am

Great post.

Under Warnock, the physical and direct games worked best when we had some pace and players with some guile and flair.

During our successful Warnock time we had a few players who could change a game - look at how many times Junior or Mendez-Laing scored a screamer or danced around a few defenders and set-up someone else.

Where it went wrong for Warnock is when re reverted to a system where those players were less effective. During his final half a season with us he really didn't even pretend he wanted to do anything else other than the team launching long balls into the box.

Since Mick has come it, especially in this last transfer window, he has stripped out any remaining flair and pace and frankly, it's not good enough on many levels.

Losing Junior, Whyte, Murphy, Wilson and Ojo - and replacing them all with a converted left back is in my opinion an indication that Mick is well at ease of lacking forward quality - there may be one or two sparks or glimmers of hope, but asking the youngsters to step in a fix a whole playing style and adding that flair, is really unfair. People say that we had no money so his hands were tied... if that is the case he should be experienced enough to know his tactics wouldn't work consistently and would need a change of approach.

Even if we bludgeon our way to the play offs the style of football will only ever deliver very short term success and honestly I doubt that we could even be close at the moment.

We needed just three extra players in the transfer window.. two forward plays - one wide and one central - players with some pace and guile and a left back.

Whether it is Micks failure or the boards, I think we can agree that those failures will cost us big time.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby llan bluebird » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:37 am

I think we are doing something though.

We will physically dominate enough teams to be safe and be passed through enough times for us not to even flirt with the playoffs.

Its slightly strange that Morrison, Flint, Pack,Ralls, Vaulks have not signed extensions. Wintle will still have two seasons with us after this, and the kids have all signed long term deals. It will take two full summers to change the squad and i believe it is telling that we never extended many established players and signed younger players. I think collins was a safety policy in case Kieffer went.

I am disappointed in Ralls as I thought early days he was somewhat in between Whitts and Gunnar, Pass better than Gunnar, tackle and run better than Whitts and was potentially premier league level, but he needs new pastures. Morrison looks a shadow of the player in the 3 at the back, he is a Central 442 defender and that's it, but when you partner him with Flint its far too slow, so its either one and Mick doesn't want to do that. Nelson is a decent athlete, hard as nails but not championship grade, but either one of those needs him to dig them out of pace troubles.

The wing backs are defensive. In my opinion NG will play most of his career at centre half so we may as well play him instead of Nelson. Bagan is still learning so there will be ups and downs and Sang is a central midfielder, though I doubt at championship level.

The difference between MM and Warnock was pace. This is our transition year and MM will keep us in the championship. I hope he leaves in the summer though.

The "board" do not only pick dinosaurs they picked Trollope who barely lasted into October when we tried to play and he had Whitts, we have Vaulks & Pack :o

I think summer one has gone and it was a holding pattern, I think Summer window two will see Smithies,Vassell,Tomlin,Flint,Pack,Vaulks and potentially Morrison and Ralls leaving. There will be loads of championship-level players free over the summer and a shed load of salary budget to reshape the squad. Just need a first-team coach to play a different way.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby piledriver64 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:09 am

Interesting topic.

I do have a degree of sympathy with McCarthy in that he's only had one full transfer window and very little to spend in that window.

I'm not as concerned about the formation he's playing, but the players he has to play that system.

At centre back he has 3 solid defenders, great in the air but none of them are quick, none of them can they play the ball on the deck. Last night was a good example of two half decent strikers with very good movement tearing us apart and whenever we tried to then play the ball out it almost invariably was a hopeful punt upfield.

I have no problem with playing 3 centre backs. Play Morrison and Flint to mark and attack the ball by all means, but they have to be complimented by a ball playing CB with a bit of pace behind them to cover.

It's something we've lacked as a back 4 or 3 since Manga went. He was replaced with Flint/Nelson by Warnock :roll: It was short-term planning that was never going to work.

The second problem is the full/wing backs. We have two out and out fullbacks. Bagan is too inexperienced to get his positioning right at the moment and Ng, who is a good player, his first thought is to defend. So basically that leaves us with a back 5.

The knock on to that is that our midfield is completely overrun. To be fair to Pack he's the one player who tries to retain the ball but he's often caught in possession because the wing backs are too deep and the forwards too far away so he's got nothing to hit.

I still think we have enough in this squad to do OK but we do need changes.

I just can't see MM moving to a back four, so if that is the case he has to put McGuiness in alongside Flint and Morrison. He came from Arsenal as a "ball playing CB". So give him a few games to see if he is up to it, if that doesn't work I'd move Pack back there. That wouldn't give you the pace but he reads the ball well and would certainly assist in playing out from the back when he can see everything in front of him.

Full/wing back is more difficult. I'd stick with Ng for now but, certainly at home, I'd have Giles on the left. That would give us someone whose natural instinct is to go forward and that would push the whole team higher up the pitch.

All opinions but when you look at how we've played recently I can't get away from the thought that all of our problems are stemming from an inability to play through our lines rather than just lump the ball over them.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:23 am

We are going to waste the young talent coming coming through with this style of football because they are not big physical players... at end of this season we can lose around 8 players that have been conditioned to play the warnock and mick styles of play what an opportunity to move in another direction? But of course that means changing manager.... tan plus committee must have foresight to get in a good progressive manager to take youngsters and any new players forward with new financial landscape players will be cheaper that will help the situation, there are very few managers that won't want to take up such a challenge all it would need is patience from the board and especially the fans while things change as it wont be overnight task.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby worcester_ccfc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:05 am

pembroke allan wrote:We are going to waste the young talent coming coming through with this style of football because they are not big physical players... at end of this season we can lose around 8 players that have been conditioned to play the warnock and mick styles of play what an opportunity to move in another direction? But of course that means changing manager.... tan plus committee must have foresight to get in a good progressive manager to take youngsters and any new players forward with new financial landscape players will be cheaper that will help the situation, there are very few managers that won't want to take up such a challenge all it would need is patience from the board and especially the fans while things change as it wont be overnight task.



We need to be starting work to get the first team to play a different style now, but it's just not happening.

To try and implement it suddenly just won't work.

We are going the other way and getting more physical.

This means that the promise of these young players will be wasted.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:48 am

worcester_ccfc wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:We are going to waste the young talent coming coming through with this style of football because they are not big physical players... at end of this season we can lose around 8 players that have been conditioned to play the warnock and mick styles of play what an opportunity to move in another direction? But of course that means changing manager.... tan plus committee must have foresight to get in a good progressive manager to take youngsters and any new players forward with new financial landscape players will be cheaper that will help the situation, there are very few managers that won't want to take up such a challenge all it would need is patience from the board and especially the fans while things change as it wont be overnight task.



We need to be starting work to get the first team to play a different style now, but it's just not happening.

To try and implement it suddenly just won't work.

We are going the other way and getting more physical.

This means that the promise of these young players will be wasted.



Ned I have said previously we need change manager at end season because what kind player will mick bring in? Perhaps doing him a disservice and he will bring in more players like colwill and will implement more of a footballing side? Problem is he is old school set in a tried tested way of playing is that what we want going forward not really ....... it's time for total overall of squad 8 out contract perfect chance to do this and new manager to complete the plan
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby AfricanBluebird » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:11 pm

I have no sympathy for Mick.

Yes we are working under huge financial restrictions but I don't believe the board told Mick to have no wide players in the squad, zero pace and no creative spark... there were free transfers available and even lower league players who could have done a job in those positions.

Honestly, if I was a manager and told that they were allowing all our wide players to leave and ending up with zero pace or creativity, I would have walked.

So either Mick actually believes his bullshit - that we have a great squad and he is happy with it, or he is a coward and allowed the board to leave him with a very poor squad. Maybe its a combination of both but think about it.... we have NO natural wingers in the side... and we have two wing backs who are not natural wing backs. Mick can't even change formation much as 4 4 2 would never work.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby piledriver64 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:10 pm

AfricanBluebird wrote:I have no sympathy for Mick.

Yes we are working under huge financial restrictions but I don't believe the board told Mick to have no wide players in the squad, zero pace and no creative spark... there were free transfers available and even lower league players who could have done a job in those positions.

Honestly, if I was a manager and told that they were allowing all our wide players to leave and ending up with zero pace or creativity, I would have walked.

So either Mick actually believes his bullshit - that we have a great squad and he is happy with it, or he is a coward and allowed the board to leave him with a very poor squad. Maybe its a combination of both but think about it.... we have NO natural wingers in the side... and we have two wing backs who are not natural wing backs. Mick can't even change formation much as 4 4 2 would never work.


You're right that 4-4-2 would never work unless you have outstanding players in every position, however 4-2-3-1 would work very well with the players we have, in my opinion.

Phillips

Ng - Morrison or Flint- McGuiness - Bagan

Vaulks - Pack

Harris - Colwill- Giles

Moore
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby bluebird04 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:43 pm

in work so havent had time to read all the posts, but the problem with our "style" is a few things, the way we play with the tall target man up top is best suited with pace either side who cut in and play as more inside forwards.

another serious issue we have is a lack of mobility and pace in the middle of the pitch. i caught the highlights last night, and the amount of times i seen a player go inbetween Pack & Vaulks and then just break clear was scary.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby Crayfish » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:04 pm

Can't ever recall a situation where one centre back, Flint, has scored more goals than the entire attacking line up of a team Giles Moore Collins and Harris put together. And double the number of goals of the four as well.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby Isawgarystevensscoreagoal » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:29 pm

Completely agree with post.
Very difficult to integrate home grown youth into a first team playing an altogether different style to what they have played and been coached to play for ten years.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby Blue78 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:49 pm

AfricanBluebird wrote:Great post.

Under Warnock, the physical and direct games worked best when we had some pace and players with some guile and flair.

During our successful Warnock time we had a few players who could change a game - look at how many times Junior or Mendez-Laing scored a screamer or danced around a few defenders and set-up someone else.

Where it went wrong for Warnock is when re reverted to a system where those players were less effective. During his final half a season with us he really didn't even pretend he wanted to do anything else other than the team launching long balls into the box.

Since Mick has come it, especially in this last transfer window, he has stripped out any remaining flair and pace and frankly, it's not good enough on many levels.

Losing Junior, Whyte, Murphy, Wilson and Ojo - and replacing them all with a converted left back is in my opinion an indication that Mick is well at ease of lacking forward quality - there may be one or two sparks or glimmers of hope, but asking the youngsters to step in a fix a whole playing style and adding that flair, is really unfair. People say that we had no money so his hands were tied... if that is the case he should be experienced enough to know his tactics wouldn't work consistently and would need a change of approach.

Even if we bludgeon our way to the play offs the style of football will only ever deliver very short term success and honestly I doubt that we could even be close at the moment.

We needed just three extra players in the transfer window.. two forward plays - one wide and one central - players with some pace and guile and a left back.

Whether it is Micks failure or the boards, I think we can agree that those failures will cost us big time.


This is a great post.

I suspect the failure is both the board and Mick - no doubt that the board would have given a smaller budget, but it seems to have made Mick just dig in further to his tried and trusted route of ‘hit it up them’ and hope, rather than taking some risk on a different style.

I could make a case to say that maybe as in integrates the youngsters and (if) we get the likes of Tomlin and Giles back, we might see the style evolve - but last night was so bad, it’ll be more revolution than evolution. To balance that, the first 30 against Bristol City was some of the best football we had played in years.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby New Day Rising » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:38 pm

The biggest problem with our style is Morrison looks out sorts in a back 3.

Our midfielders are just workhorses with very little flair.

We have no pace.

Wing backs are learning the system.

Youngsters are not consistent.
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Re: " The biggest problem with our style "

Postby Sven » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:41 pm

Blue78 wrote:
AfricanBluebird wrote:Great post.

Under Warnock, the physical and direct games worked best when we had some pace and players with some guile and flair.

During our successful Warnock time we had a few players who could change a game - look at how many times Junior or Mendez-Laing scored a screamer or danced around a few defenders and set-up someone else.

Where it went wrong for Warnock is when re reverted to a system where those players were less effective. During his final half a season with us he really didn't even pretend he wanted to do anything else other than the team launching long balls into the box.

Since Mick has come it, especially in this last transfer window, he has stripped out any remaining flair and pace and frankly, it's not good enough on many levels.

Losing Junior, Whyte, Murphy, Wilson and Ojo - and replacing them all with a converted left back is in my opinion an indication that Mick is well at ease of lacking forward quality - there may be one or two sparks or glimmers of hope, but asking the youngsters to step in a fix a whole playing style and adding that flair, is really unfair. People say that we had no money so his hands were tied... if that is the case he should be experienced enough to know his tactics wouldn't work consistently and would need a change of approach.

Even if we bludgeon our way to the play offs the style of football will only ever deliver very short term success and honestly I doubt that we could even be close at the moment.

We needed just three extra players in the transfer window.. two forward plays - one wide and one central - players with some pace and guile and a left back.

Whether it is Micks failure or the boards, I think we can agree that those failures will cost us big time.


This is a great post.

I suspect the failure is both the board and Mick - no doubt that the board would have given a smaller budget, but it seems to have made Mick just dig in further to his tried and trusted route of ‘hit it up them’ and hope, rather than taking some risk on a different style.

I could make a case to say that maybe as in integrates the youngsters and (if) we get the likes of Tomlin and Giles back, we might see the style evolve - but last night was so bad, it’ll be more revolution than evolution. To balance that, the first 30 against Bristol City was some of the best football we had played in years.

Yes, I have to agree with you both and the OP...

The Board/Committee may have tied (at least) one of Mick McCarthy's hands behind his back but they don't dictate his chosen style, which is historically familiar to what we have now

Personally, based on nothing but observation of similar situations, I don't believe the Board have any real ambition to get promoted and I'm not so sure they had it under Neil Warnock, who surpassed all expectations (which were surely just to take us away from the drop zone?) after his popular arrival

Only time will tell but I think this will be a mixed season of good, bad and indifferent performances/results, as clubs in the Championship work out our set style and supporter patience will be key as the young players develop
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