What UK gives away

Just to put into perspective what we give away.

As a UK tax payer

Since 11pm, 29 March 2019, the UK has paid the EU £3,035,657,094.17. This could've paid for 33 new hospitals, 131,985 nurses, 115,200 policemen, or even the repair of 57,276,548 potholes. A single pile of what we've paid in £20 notes would be 10.66 miles tall.

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Net benefactor from England you mean..

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Yes very convenient as the choice of prime minister gets closer one leave come what may other may extend deadline? Been same all along EU underlings undermining things with comments here and there now a trade deal with south America big deal!
Who benefits most from EU funding the valleys wonder why they voted out?

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

prove it ,its about even as its calculated on per head but the difference is the eu tell us how to spend it ,also our farmers are paid not to farm ,most farmers i know voted out ,they are fed up of the restrictions that favour france

Leave means Leave.

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

I don't think that's what you mean is it ?
You know ' benefactor ' means giving money, don't you ?
Do you mean to say that Wales gives more money to the EU than it gets from the EU - cause that's what you said.
Please clarify

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Clearly you meant "net beneficiary" which would be correct !

A comment about how much we've paid in must be balanced with how much we receive. I can't be arsed wading through the various papers but if someone has the time or inclination, have a look at this:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /30109.htm

I'm guessing the UK will still be a net contributor so for Wales it's a matter of whether you trust the Tory's in Westminster to stump up what we get from EU and a bit more for us to see anything resembling a benefit of leaving.

One thing that also has to be factored in is in para 6.16 outlining that leaving will not stop us having to contribute over the coming years and para 6.4 tells us the government estimates the cost of simply leaving before any additional contribution as being £39b Boris has been a quiet on those two points

And before anyone says that we can just walk away without paying; how likely do you think it is that we will be able to negotiate any new trading terms with the EU is we still owe them billions Add to that the fact that Trump is playing hard ball with everyone (because the US is big enough to hold sway unlike us) then it paints a pretty worrying picture for future trade.

Put simply the UK pays EU contributions and then in return the EU gives a very small amount of that back. I can't remember the full figures but off the top of my head Wales receives around £14billion from Westminster and around £400m from the EU. It is around 4% of the Welsh budget.

Of course when we leave the EU we would no longer receive EU funding but Westminster would no longer have to pay the EU £18billion each year. It would be hard to understand how Westminster could-not make up the shortfall.

One thing I have found is the make-up of where tax on a £23000 income goes (March 2019). I'll leave it for others to say where the value is good, bad or indifferent !!:

Welfare £946.52

Health £791.42

State pensions £509.45

Education £477.24

National debt interest £242.60

Defence £210.78

Public order & safety £171.01

Transport £171.01

Business & industry £115.33

Government administration £83.52

Environment £63.63

Culture (eg. sports, libraries, museums) £63.63

Housing & utilities (eg. street lights) £63.63

Overseas aid £48.12

UK contributions to EU budget £27.84


Based on earnings of £23,000, you will pay £3,977 into the Government coffers this financial year; £2,228 in tax and £1,749 in National Insurance.

One thing I have found is the make-up of where tax on a £23000 income goes (March 2019). I'll leave it for others to say where the value is good, bad or indifferent !!:

Welfare £946.52

Health £791.42

State pensions £509.45

Education £477.24

National debt interest £242.60

Defence £210.78

Public order & safety £171.01

Transport £171.01

Business & industry £115.33

Government administration £83.52

Environment £63.63

Culture (eg. sports, libraries, museums) £63.63

Housing & utilities (eg. street lights) £63.63

Overseas aid £48.12

UK contributions to EU budget £27.84


Based on earnings of £23,000, you will pay £3,977 into the Government coffers this financial year; £2,228 in tax and £1,749 in National Insurance.

Personally I would like to see the £27.84 EU contribution given to housing which would be a 40% increase in housing building budgets.

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

prove it ,its about even as its calculated on per head but the difference is the eu tell us how to spend it ,also our farmers are paid not to farm ,most farmers i know voted out ,they are fed up of the restrictions that favour france

What restrictions that favour France?
If most farmers want out then why should we have to make plans for a £6 BILLION relief fund to help them and fisheries, as many people have said they knew what they were voting for.

Does anyone have a list of what Wales gets back ? in terms of things built etc ?

There was a program I watched and it highlighted a Welsh town (one of the most deprived in the UK). On paper the EU had spent alot of money in reality though - the EU had paid 250k for a statue type object and done up a few parks. That doesnt do anything for the economy of the area.

NET beneficiaries we maybe - but if that money isnt spent on schools / hospitals and helping to attract jobs - then it's money wasted. I was all for more shared standards, common tariffs, etc - what I was not in favour of was TTIP, a EU defence force (I prefer NATO) , I did not want greater political integration at all and we do not need more new member states joining with massive unemployment rates (Kosovo, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro etc).

At the referendum - there was no status quo option - leave (without knowing what a deal would look lilke) or Remain - and get the policies laid out in the 5 Presidents report, which it seems no one in the EU wants either - other than Brussels.

Need to row back to a pre Maastericht arrangement - control of borders etc

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Clearly you meant "net beneficiary" which would be correct !

A comment about how much we've paid in must be balanced with how much we receive. I can't be arsed wading through the various papers but if someone has the time or inclination, have a look at this:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /30109.htm

I'm guessing the UK will still be a net contributor so for Wales it's a matter of whether you trust the Tory's in Westminster to stump up what we get from EU and a bit more for us to see anything resembling a benefit of leaving.

One thing that also has to be factored in is in para 6.16 outlining that leaving will not stop us having to contribute over the coming years and para 6.4 tells us the government estimates the cost of simply leaving before any additional contribution as being £39b Boris has been a quiet on those two points

And before anyone says that we can just walk away without paying; how likely do you think it is that we will be able to negotiate any new trading terms with the EU is we still owe them billions Add to that the fact that Trump is playing hard ball with everyone (because the US is big enough to hold sway unlike us) then it paints a pretty worrying picture for future trade.

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

It's frankly stupid to calculate the EU funding position separately for Wales, since there's no barrier to anyone or to any funds moving round the uk internally. It's not a separate economy so I can't see how you can look at it as a separate calculation.

It's also very strange and hard to understand when people are desperately keen to somehow be independent from Britain, yet equally desperate to be a subordinate colony of a European Federal State.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Clearly you meant "net beneficiary" which would be correct !

A comment about how much we've paid in must be balanced with how much we receive. I can't be arsed wading through the various papers but if someone has the time or inclination, have a look at this:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /30109.htm

I'm guessing the UK will still be a net contributor so for Wales it's a matter of whether you trust the Tory's in Westminster to stump up what we get from EU and a bit more for us to see anything resembling a benefit of leaving.

One thing that also has to be factored in is in para 6.16 outlining that leaving will not stop us having to contribute over the coming years and para 6.4 tells us the government estimates the cost of simply leaving before any additional contribution as being £39b Boris has been a quiet on those two points

And before anyone says that we can just walk away without paying; how likely do you think it is that we will be able to negotiate any new trading terms with the EU is we still owe them billions Add to that the fact that Trump is playing hard ball with everyone (because the US is big enough to hold sway unlike us) then it paints a pretty worrying picture for future trade.

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

It's frankly stupid to calculate the EU funding position separately for Wales, since there's no barrier to anyone or to any funds moving round the uk internally. It's not a separate economy so I can't see how you can look at it as a separate calculation.

It's also very strange and hard to understand when people are desperately keen to somehow be independent from Britain, yet equally desperate to be a subordinate colony of a European Federal State.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

And you seem to have an A-level in "How to be condescending" just because somebody may have the temerity to have a different view to you.

Where have I not expressed myself logically, consistently or clearly ?

I have expressed a doubt that we, in Wales, can expect the London Tory elite to subsidise us to the extent that the EU have.

I may be proved right or wrong but it is just as valid an opinion as yours and a point yet to be answered by our previous Prime Minister or either of the prospective replacements.

By all means have a different opinion to me, but do not dismiss mine with no facts or, even, verbal commitments from the prospective decision makes that could allay my concerns .................. prat

Like I said earlier - being out - we (the UK / Welsh Govt) can decide where we spend that money.

As it stands the EU decides where (our) money (which we have sent them) will be spent. So if you wanted a new special needs school in Ebbw Vale - you would have to ask an (unelected) EU commissioner for that money to spent on that school.

The flip side of this is - you would ask an elected politician (MP or AM) to spend the money on the school.

I prefer a more local democratically elected and accountable person that I can pester to spend the money (someone that holds constituency meetings twice a month with a local office etc) rather than an EU commissioner or having to correspond with an MEP in Brussels / Strasbourg etc.

Now I know that the Objective 1 funding was allocated to the WAG etc - but they still were restricted as to what and where they can spend it. Objective 1 funding is now finished anyway - as it is being reassigned to other more financially needy countries, Eastern European mainly.

Please dont get me wrong - I dont mind being part of the EU - but not as it is being currently run and not how will develop of the next 10 years.

ps - the UK has the highest level of inward investment when compared to any other EU country. Other non EU countries are desperate to invest here it seems - I'm sure there are others that will say this is a bad thing - but we cant have it both ways can we.

Does anyone have a list of what Wales gets back ? in terms of things built etc ?

There was a program I watched and it highlighted a Welsh town (one of the most deprived in the UK). On paper the EU had spent alot of money in reality though - the EU had paid 250k for a statue type object and done up a few parks. That doesnt do anything for the economy of the area.

NET beneficiaries we maybe - but if that money isnt spent on schools / hospitals and helping to attract jobs - then it's money wasted. I was all for more shared standards, common tariffs, etc - what I was not in favour of was TTIP, a EU defence force (I prefer NATO) , I did not want greater political integration at all and we do not need more new member states joining with massive unemployment rates (Kosovo, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro etc).

At the referendum - there was no status quo option - leave (without knowing what a deal would look lilke) or Remain - and get the policies laid out in the 5 Presidents report, which it seems no one in the EU wants either - other than Brussels.

Need to row back to a pre Maastericht arrangement - control of borders etc

The list of things EU fund is endless but look deeper and see it is wasted as well as being good .... here in pembs they built miles of cycle ways no one uses except daily walkers and occasional cyclists but not serious ones they use the roads! Built a 1mile rd that is 10years to late can go on but get the drift? As for pre maastricht mmm that was brought in to appease anti EU factions all it did was to be previous entity with different name so nothing changed. Leaving with no deal was not on agenda because you would assume MPs would deliver Brexit if voted to leave and not have their own agenda so not realistic to put it on ballot paper

As it stands the EU decides where (our) money (which we have sent them) will be spent. So if you wanted a new special needs school in Ebbw Vale - you would have to ask an (unelected) EU commissioner for that money to spent on that school.

The flip side of this is - you would ask an elected politician (MP or AM) to spend the money on the school.

I'm not sure you've got the right example there. The EU has no decision making powers on schools in the UK that I know of. Unless, of course, you're asking them to fund it directly.

I accept they may be involved in other departments but I can't find anything where they would have to approve funding a new school.

No mention of the EU in this explanation of the funding stream here (even though this just refers to England the funding process would be the same for Wales):

https://fullfact.org/education/spending ... s-england/

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Clearly you meant "net beneficiary" which would be correct !

A comment about how much we've paid in must be balanced with how much we receive. I can't be arsed wading through the various papers but if someone has the time or inclination, have a look at this:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /30109.htm

I'm guessing the UK will still be a net contributor so for Wales it's a matter of whether you trust the Tory's in Westminster to stump up what we get from EU and a bit more for us to see anything resembling a benefit of leaving.

One thing that also has to be factored in is in para 6.16 outlining that leaving will not stop us having to contribute over the coming years and para 6.4 tells us the government estimates the cost of simply leaving before any additional contribution as being £39b Boris has been a quiet on those two points

And before anyone says that we can just walk away without paying; how likely do you think it is that we will be able to negotiate any new trading terms with the EU is we still owe them billions Add to that the fact that Trump is playing hard ball with everyone (because the US is big enough to hold sway unlike us) then it paints a pretty worrying picture for future trade.

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

It's frankly stupid to calculate the EU funding position separately for Wales, since there's no barrier to anyone or to any funds moving round the uk internally. It's not a separate economy so I can't see how you can look at it as a separate calculation.

It's also very strange and hard to understand when people are desperately keen to somehow be independent from Britain, yet equally desperate to be a subordinate colony of a European Federal State.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

And you seem to have an A-level in "How to be condescending" just because somebody may have the temerity to have a different view to you.

Where have I not expressed myself logically, consistently or clearly ?

I have expressed a doubt that we, in Wales, can expect the London Tory elite to subsidise us to the extent that the EU have.

I may be proved right or wrong but it is just as valid an opinion as yours and a point yet to be answered by our previous Prime Minister or either of the prospective replacements.

By all means have a different opinion to me, but do not dismiss mine with no facts or, even, verbal commitments from the prospective decision makes that could allay my concerns .................. prat

Very long time since I did my A levels, and I don't think that subject was available in those days.
I thought I was quite clear about the inconsistencies in your logic, so I needn't repeat it.
I don't see why you want to get so nasty about it either actually - the facts are the facts and perhaps you're upset that they don't coincide with your argument ?

You now fall back upon an entirely imaginary guessing game about who'd give you more money between the unelected EU and the elected British Government , but that's not the deciding factor for people who don't wish to be charity cases. In any case, we can't all get more money than we put in because it's got to come from somewhere in the first place.

Look, you can't justify your position logically for the simple reason that it's not logical, yet you persist either out of some personal passion or ego. Well, you have the right to that, but it's not a persuasive argument and you really needn't get angry with me for pointing it out because it's possible to disagree without being disagreeable you know.

As it stands the EU decides where (our) money (which we have sent them) will be spent. So if you wanted a new special needs school in Ebbw Vale - you would have to ask an (unelected) EU commissioner for that money to spent on that school.

The flip side of this is - you would ask an elected politician (MP or AM) to spend the money on the school.

I'm not sure you've got the right example there. The EU has no decision making powers on schools in the UK that I know of. Unless, of course, you're asking them to fund it directly.

I accept they may be involved in other departments but I can't find anything where they would have to approve funding a new school.

No mention of the EU in this explanation of the funding stream here (even though this just refers to England the funding process would be the same for Wales):

Apologies - I was just giving an example of the process - as in - we do not have a say where the money is spent - the EU decide. The point I was trying to make - was that I would far rather a local democratically elected politician was responsible for the decision - rather than an EU commissioner , that was never elected - and simply that wants one of his blue flags on it.

Pointless cycle lanes in Pembroke, unwanted blob type statues in Ebbw Vale - make my point a lot easier to understand I think.
https://fullfact.org/education/spending ... s-england/

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

Can you clarify the first bit, its taken 3 years to just agree to maintain current deals with giants such as the Faroe Islands or Liechtenstein. Think it'll be decades before we get anywhere close to what we had in the biggest trading block in the world.
What national identity, culture, and liberties have the EU snatched that we'd get back?
I left your last paragraph in as it can be applied to every leave politician.

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Clearly you meant "net beneficiary" which would be correct !

A comment about how much we've paid in must be balanced with how much we receive. I can't be arsed wading through the various papers but if someone has the time or inclination, have a look at this:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /30109.htm

I'm guessing the UK will still be a net contributor so for Wales it's a matter of whether you trust the Tory's in Westminster to stump up what we get from EU and a bit more for us to see anything resembling a benefit of leaving.

One thing that also has to be factored in is in para 6.16 outlining that leaving will not stop us having to contribute over the coming years and para 6.4 tells us the government estimates the cost of simply leaving before any additional contribution as being £39b Boris has been a quiet on those two points

And before anyone says that we can just walk away without paying; how likely do you think it is that we will be able to negotiate any new trading terms with the EU is we still owe them billions Add to that the fact that Trump is playing hard ball with everyone (because the US is big enough to hold sway unlike us) then it paints a pretty worrying picture for future trade.

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

It's frankly stupid to calculate the EU funding position separately for Wales, since there's no barrier to anyone or to any funds moving round the uk internally. It's not a separate economy so I can't see how you can look at it as a separate calculation.

It's also very strange and hard to understand when people are desperately keen to somehow be independent from Britain, yet equally desperate to be a subordinate colony of a European Federal State.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

And you seem to have an A-level in "How to be condescending" just because somebody may have the temerity to have a different view to you.

Where have I not expressed myself logically, consistently or clearly ?

I have expressed a doubt that we, in Wales, can expect the London Tory elite to subsidise us to the extent that the EU have.

I may be proved right or wrong but it is just as valid an opinion as yours and a point yet to be answered by our previous Prime Minister or either of the prospective replacements.

By all means have a different opinion to me, but do not dismiss mine with no facts or, even, verbal commitments from the prospective decision makes that could allay my concerns .................. prat

Very long time since I did my A levels, and I don't think that subject was available in those days.
I thought I was quite clear about the inconsistencies in your logic, so I needn't repeat it.
I don't see why you want to get so nasty about it either actually - the facts are the facts and perhaps you're upset that they don't coincide with your argument ?

You now fall back upon an entirely imaginary guessing game about who'd give you more money between the unelected EU and the elected British Government , but that's not the deciding factor for people who don't wish to be charity cases. In any case, we can't all get more money than we put in because it's got to come from somewhere in the first place.

Look, you can't justify your position logically for the simple reason that it's not logical, yet you persist either out of some personal passion or ego. Well, you have the right to that, but it's not a persuasive argument and you really needn't get angry with me for pointing it out because it's possible to disagree without being disagreeable you know.

So yet again you've called me out with a whole lot of words but giving no counter argument

You should be a politician

As I said "I have expressed a doubt that we, in Wales, can expect the London Tory elite to subsidise us to the extent that the EU have." how can you dismiss that as me trying to "justify your position logically for the simple reason that it's not logical" when you can't give a logical answer to counter act that fear

Despite the fact that I voted to Remain I do believe in democracy and therefore do not advocate another referendum (even though initially I did want one !!). However, what I, and the majority of the electorate, don't want is a no-Deal Brexit because I think it would be catastrophic. Therefore, people with views from either side of the debate need to be challenging politicians as what will happen on these important issues not just settle for the latest, watered down platitudes spouting from their mouths.

For instance, the two candidates for Prime Minister are both of the view that they will leave with or without a deal. Yet neither will answer the simple question "How" ? Parliament has to agree and that is nowhere near happening !!

There's only way that this will be resolved and that is by a General Election, then some of those weak kneed politicians that are trying to placate their mates will have to nail their colours to the mast and stop treating this as some kind of poker game with no regard to reality.

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Clearly you meant "net beneficiary" which would be correct !

A comment about how much we've paid in must be balanced with how much we receive. I can't be arsed wading through the various papers but if someone has the time or inclination, have a look at this:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /30109.htm

I'm guessing the UK will still be a net contributor so for Wales it's a matter of whether you trust the Tory's in Westminster to stump up what we get from EU and a bit more for us to see anything resembling a benefit of leaving.

One thing that also has to be factored in is in para 6.16 outlining that leaving will not stop us having to contribute over the coming years and para 6.4 tells us the government estimates the cost of simply leaving before any additional contribution as being £39b Boris has been a quiet on those two points

And before anyone says that we can just walk away without paying; how likely do you think it is that we will be able to negotiate any new trading terms with the EU is we still owe them billions Add to that the fact that Trump is playing hard ball with everyone (because the US is big enough to hold sway unlike us) then it paints a pretty worrying picture for future trade.

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

It's frankly stupid to calculate the EU funding position separately for Wales, since there's no barrier to anyone or to any funds moving round the uk internally. It's not a separate economy so I can't see how you can look at it as a separate calculation.

It's also very strange and hard to understand when people are desperately keen to somehow be independent from Britain, yet equally desperate to be a subordinate colony of a European Federal State.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

And you seem to have an A-level in "How to be condescending" just because somebody may have the temerity to have a different view to you.

Where have I not expressed myself logically, consistently or clearly ?

I have expressed a doubt that we, in Wales, can expect the London Tory elite to subsidise us to the extent that the EU have.

I may be proved right or wrong but it is just as valid an opinion as yours and a point yet to be answered by our previous Prime Minister or either of the prospective replacements.

By all means have a different opinion to me, but do not dismiss mine with no facts or, even, verbal commitments from the prospective decision makes that could allay my concerns .................. prat

Very long time since I did my A levels, and I don't think that subject was available in those days.
I thought I was quite clear about the inconsistencies in your logic, so I needn't repeat it.
I don't see why you want to get so nasty about it either actually - the facts are the facts and perhaps you're upset that they don't coincide with your argument ?

You now fall back upon an entirely imaginary guessing game about who'd give you more money between the unelected EU and the elected British Government , but that's not the deciding factor for people who don't wish to be charity cases. In any case, we can't all get more money than we put in because it's got to come from somewhere in the first place.

Look, you can't justify your position logically for the simple reason that it's not logical, yet you persist either out of some personal passion or ego. Well, you have the right to that, but it's not a persuasive argument and you really needn't get angry with me for pointing it out because it's possible to disagree without being disagreeable you know.

So yet again you've called me out with a whole lot of words but giving no counter argument

You should be a politician

As I said "I have expressed a doubt that we, in Wales, can expect the London Tory elite to subsidise us to the extent that the EU have." how can you dismiss that as me trying to "justify your position logically for the simple reason that it's not logical" when you can't give a logical answer to counter act that fear

Despite the fact that I voted to Remain I do believe in democracy and therefore do not advocate another referendum (even though initially I did want one !!). However, what I, and the majority of the electorate, don't want is a no-Deal Brexit because I think it would be catastrophic. Therefore, people with views from either side of the debate need to be challenging politicians as what will happen on these important issues not just settle for the latest, watered down platitudes spouting from their mouths.

For instance, the two candidates for Prime Minister are both of the view that they will leave with or without a deal. Yet neither will answer the simple question "How" ? Parliament has to agree and that is nowhere near happening !!

There's only way that this will be resolved and that is by a General Election, then some of those weak kneed politicians that are trying to placate their mates will have to nail their colours to the mast and stop treating this as some kind of poker game with no regard to reality.

Parliament does not have to agree to no deal, simple fact is if nothing is agreed before Oct 31st we leave by default! Only way can stop Brexit is withdrawal of article 50 but that's very unlikely or there is a motion supported by enough MPs in parliament but time is limited so are the options? Only time will tell which way we go but given candidates views Brexit is more likely to happen with or without a deal...

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

Can you clarify the first bit, its taken 3 years to just agree to maintain current deals with giants such as the Faroe Islands or Liechtenstein. Think it'll be decades before we get anywhere close to what we had in the biggest trading block in the world.
What national identity, culture, and liberties have the EU snatched that we'd get back?
I left your last paragraph in as it can be applied to every leave politician.

I was specifically referring to the fact that in this thread they were unclear as to whether they were talking about benefactors or beneficiaries , and it was a genuine confusion about what they meant rather than sarcasm.
You're somewhat widening the argument there, but that all comes down to whether you believe project fear or whether you think that the UK will trade more successfully world wide than it can as a component of the EU. I expect that we take different views upon this matter, but really none of us can foretell the future so there's not much point in making claims and counter claims - I think everyone has by now heard all the arguments and formed their own opinions

Wales is a net benefactor from the EU.
Convenient anti EU post at the same time as a major trade deal has been announced.

Clearly you meant "net beneficiary" which would be correct !

A comment about how much we've paid in must be balanced with how much we receive. I can't be arsed wading through the various papers but if someone has the time or inclination, have a look at this:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /30109.htm

I'm guessing the UK will still be a net contributor so for Wales it's a matter of whether you trust the Tory's in Westminster to stump up what we get from EU and a bit more for us to see anything resembling a benefit of leaving.

One thing that also has to be factored in is in para 6.16 outlining that leaving will not stop us having to contribute over the coming years and para 6.4 tells us the government estimates the cost of simply leaving before any additional contribution as being £39b Boris has been a quiet on those two points

And before anyone says that we can just walk away without paying; how likely do you think it is that we will be able to negotiate any new trading terms with the EU is we still owe them billions Add to that the fact that Trump is playing hard ball with everyone (because the US is big enough to hold sway unlike us) then it paints a pretty worrying picture for future trade.

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

It's frankly stupid to calculate the EU funding position separately for Wales, since there's no barrier to anyone or to any funds moving round the uk internally. It's not a separate economy so I can't see how you can look at it as a separate calculation.

It's also very strange and hard to understand when people are desperately keen to somehow be independent from Britain, yet equally desperate to be a subordinate colony of a European Federal State.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

And you seem to have an A-level in "How to be condescending" just because somebody may have the temerity to have a different view to you.

Where have I not expressed myself logically, consistently or clearly ?

I have expressed a doubt that we, in Wales, can expect the London Tory elite to subsidise us to the extent that the EU have.

I may be proved right or wrong but it is just as valid an opinion as yours and a point yet to be answered by our previous Prime Minister or either of the prospective replacements.

By all means have a different opinion to me, but do not dismiss mine with no facts or, even, verbal commitments from the prospective decision makes that could allay my concerns .................. prat

Very long time since I did my A levels, and I don't think that subject was available in those days.
I thought I was quite clear about the inconsistencies in your logic, so I needn't repeat it.
I don't see why you want to get so nasty about it either actually - the facts are the facts and perhaps you're upset that they don't coincide with your argument ?

You now fall back upon an entirely imaginary guessing game about who'd give you more money between the unelected EU and the elected British Government , but that's not the deciding factor for people who don't wish to be charity cases. In any case, we can't all get more money than we put in because it's got to come from somewhere in the first place.

Look, you can't justify your position logically for the simple reason that it's not logical, yet you persist either out of some personal passion or ego. Well, you have the right to that, but it's not a persuasive argument and you really needn't get angry with me for pointing it out because it's possible to disagree without being disagreeable you know.

So yet again you've called me out with a whole lot of words but giving no counter argument

You should be a politician

As I said "I have expressed a doubt that we, in Wales, can expect the London Tory elite to subsidise us to the extent that the EU have." how can you dismiss that as me trying to "justify your position logically for the simple reason that it's not logical" when you can't give a logical answer to counter act that fear

Despite the fact that I voted to Remain I do believe in democracy and therefore do not advocate another referendum (even though initially I did want one !!). However, what I, and the majority of the electorate, don't want is a no-Deal Brexit because I think it would be catastrophic. Therefore, people with views from either side of the debate need to be challenging politicians as what will happen on these important issues not just settle for the latest, watered down platitudes spouting from their mouths.

For instance, the two candidates for Prime Minister are both of the view that they will leave with or without a deal. Yet neither will answer the simple question "How" ? Parliament has to agree and that is nowhere near happening !!

There's only way that this will be resolved and that is by a General Election, then some of those weak kneed politicians that are trying to placate their mates will have to nail their colours to the mast and stop treating this as some kind of poker game with no regard to reality.

Not really fair because I'd already explained why your argument was not logical in my previous post and said so in that one.
I didn't say that it was illogical to think that the government might be less generous in terms of handouts than the EU, but rather cast doubt upon that calculation being the important thing.

Well I don't know.
The remaniacs seem a bit confused about what they're trying to say. The fact is that we have a tremendous opportunity not only in terms of trade , but regaining our national identity and culture which includes many individual liberties and opportunities which are quite foreign to the statist countries of mainland Europe.

Bit old fashioned this, but if people can't think logically and consistently or express themselves clearly , then they're recommendations are certainly not to be acted upon when taking important decisions

Can you clarify the first bit, its taken 3 years to just agree to maintain current deals with giants such as the Faroe Islands or Liechtenstein. Think it'll be decades before we get anywhere close to what we had in the biggest trading block in the world.
What national identity, culture, and liberties have the EU snatched that we'd get back?
I left your last paragraph in as it can be applied to every leave politician.

I was specifically referring to the fact that in this thread they were unclear as to whether they were talking about benefactors or beneficiaries , and it was a genuine confusion about what they meant rather than sarcasm.
You're somewhat widening the argument there, but that all comes down to whether you believe project fear or whether you think that the UK will trade more successfully world wide than it can as a component of the EU. I expect that we take different views upon this matter, but really none of us can foretell the future so there's not much point in making claims and counter claims - I think everyone has by now heard all the arguments and formed their own opinions

Musnt forget they need us as well as us needing them just a case whose needs are more pressing? And Judging by Some EU countries finances they are not looking forward to no deal .

Those who describe the Tory’s as elite, what’s your view on Junker, Tusk, Barnier and Verhofstadt, do you think they’re men of the people? I’ll keep it simple: we put more in than we take out.

Those who describe the Tory’s as elite, what’s your view on Junker, Tusk, Barnier and Verhofstadt, do you think they’re men of the people? I’ll keep it simple: we put more in than we take out.

You could put it even simpler Jock. With the economic mess a lot of these EU countries are in, they are going to be in one mighty bigger mess without our money to bail them out. The EU is only going one way, it's just a matter of the timescale before it implodes.

Those who describe the Tory’s as elite, what’s your view on Junker, Tusk, Barnier and Verhofstadt, do you think they’re men of the people? I’ll keep it simple: we put more in than we take out.

You could put it even simpler Jock. With the economic mess a lot of these EU countries are in, they are going to be in one mighty bigger mess without our money to bail them out. The EU is only going one way, it's just a matter of the timescale before it implodes.

It’s a failing project that’s driven by Germany because the Krauts are the biggest beneficiaries of the EU. Thank god we never joined the Euro.

Those who describe the Tory’s as elite, what’s your view on Junker, Tusk, Barnier and Verhofstadt, do you think they’re men of the people? I’ll keep it simple: we put more in than we take out.

You could put it even simpler Jock. With the economic mess a lot of these EU countries are in, they are going to be in one mighty bigger mess without our money to bail them out. The EU is only going one way, it's just a matter of the timescale before it implodes.

It’s a failing project that’s driven by Germany because the Krauts are the biggest beneficiaries of the EU. Thank god we never joined the Euro.

UK is a net contributor to the EU = 'how will they survive without us'.

Germany gives even more money to the EU than the UK does, is a larger contributor to the EU in terms of money paid in and received than the UK = 'the krauts are the biggest benificiaries of the EU'.