' The Wales-England World Cup debate '

The Wales-England World Cup debate - the arguments for and against supporting Southgate's team if you're Welsh

Yet hundreds of thousands of Welsh football fans support English club sides.

By Matthew Southcombe

Wednesday 27th June 2018



Growing up in the heart of the Rhondda valley, supporting England in any shape or form was simply not an option.

Not unless, of course, you wished to be exiled!

In an Orwellian twist, the thought simply entering your mind would result in punishment – being sent to bed without supper, no doubt.

And yet, more often than not, every two years we arrive at a debate that has raged since long before I walked the earth.

A major football tournament arrives; England have qualified and Wales have not.

Thankfully, this cycle was broken in emphatic fashion at Euro 2016, but there is usually a debate around whether or not Welsh people should support their neighbours during the summer showpieces.


Wales’ failure to back up their Euro heroics, missing out on qualification for Russia 2018, means the fiery back and forth has reared its head again, and how. You won’t have to look hard on social media to find simmering views from both sides of the fence.







The reasons for supporting England if you're Welsh

Despite how vociferous some Welsh football fans have been in expressing their views, as is their right, the problem with social media is that it can quite easily create the notion that the voice of the vocal minority represents the view of the majority.

'Anyone but England' and 'I know no-one who wants them to win' is the claim put forward.

Of course, that is not the case.

For a number of valid reasons, there are people in Wales cheering on England in their quest for World Cup success.







Supporting English club teams

Many football followers this side of the River Severn are fans of Premier League teams and, as such, are keen to see players from their club do well on the world stage.

A Manchester United fan from Brecon, for example, may be inclined to support the Three Lions as a consequence of wanting Jesse Lingard and Marcus Rashford to have a good summer.

Tottenham fans don't want to see Harry Kane flop, Liverpool supporters are keen to see their skipper Jordan Henderson do well at the pinnacle of the game.






A more likeable England regime

England's cause this time has also been helped by the fact there is clearly far more warmth to Gareth Southgate’s current crop. Their fresh approach and openness so far has been well-documented.


The players have developed a good rapport with the media – inviting them to play darts after press conferences etc – and articles like the disarmingly honest one Raheem Sterling published in The Players’ Tribune make them a group you can identify with more than past regimes.

Maybe England have actually taken a leaf out of Wales' book. Gareth Bale, his team-mates and their travelling fans enchanted a continent with their exploits on and off the field at the Euros. England, by contrast, were a complete turn-off with their football and their demeanour.






Willing to put the rivalry aside

This newfound likability under Southgate, coupled with the fact that the coverage on free-to-air TV has been pretty much wall-to-wall, means that the more casual football fan may be more inclined to support the neighbours. The World Cup, like the Olympics, draws in greater interest.

There are those who are simply willing to put the rivalry to one side, given that England are the only home nation in the tournament.

The Three Lions definitely have backing from this side of the Bridge. Whether that is the majority, or the minority, I guess no-one can know for certain.






The reasons for not supporting England if you're Welsh

Wales-England rivalry does exist and transcends beyond football.

Across a number of sports, England boast a superior player pool and far better resources than Wales and other nations. Many revel in their failures because of that.

And even if this was simply limited to the round ball game, it’s a fixture that originates in 1879, with Wales winning just 14 of the 101 matches that have taken place since, most recently at the Euros.

Since the last Home Internationals fixture in 1984, the two countries have met just five times - and England have won the lot.




Rivalry alive and kicking

That may lead to folk of a certain generation assuming that a rivalry – one that remains notorious in rugby, where the two play each other every year in the Six Nations – does not exist in football.


But that would be naive. Whenever Wales face England, the fixture will always take on extra significance for the Welsh, even if the feeling is not mutual.

England celebrated their last-gasp Euro win in Lens in a routine manner, but if Wales had triumphed that game would have gone into sporting folklore here. Such is the depth of feeling when it comes to games against the old enemy.

Just look at the devastation on the faces of Chris Coleman's men at the final whistle two years ago and it tells you all you need to know.

You wouldn't support a rival club side

There is the notion, of course, that Welsh people should support England on the grounds that they are our neighbours and it will be for the good of British football should they be successful at the World Cup.






But apply that same logic elsewhere.

There weren’t too many cheers going up just off junction 45 of the M4 when Cardiff City were promoted to the Premier League. No suggestion in Swansea that it was for the good of Welsh football.

And there would have been similar silence in the capital when the Swans went up in 2011.

Rivalry rarely works that way. Manchester United fans wouldn't have been over-enamoured had Liverpool won the Champions League, even if it might have been good for English football.







England aren't representing the UK

Finally, there is the suggestion that England are somehow representing the UK at the World Cup, which is probably clutching at straws from those requesting the St George’s Cross be hoisted from Bangor to Barry.

Southgate’s side weren’t representing the UK during the qualification process, for many here they aren't doing so out in Russia, either.

This isn’t the British and Irish Lions, the Ryder Cup, the Mosconi Cup, the Eurovision song contest or even – gulp – Team GB.

This is England. The players are representing England.

For many Welsh fans, Tunisia, Panama and Belgium flags have become the order of the day.




Debate will rage

In sport, there will always be a champion. But the same will never be said for a debate that will always be in a state of impasse.

The only hope for some sort of conclusion is the realisation and acceptance that some harbour views different to your own.

However, even reaching such a point is unlikely in this case. Why? Because this is a discussion in which, regardless of what side you're on, you simply cannot conceive that anyone could think the opposite.

Our only hope, then, is that both England and Wales qualify for Euro 2020.

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If the media didn’t ram it into our faces at every opportunity maybe and just a maybe they may have a little more support.
But not off me as I’m too far gone

f**k them.

Annis, the way I look at this is if you are Welsh but follow an English Club then when those club players you support in league games are representing England in a major tournament why would you not give them and their country your support? That's my view for what it's worth.

We play in England. I've got a lot in common with English football fans, very little in common with Welsh 'event-goers', and nothing in common with Welsh egg-chasers, (or poets, harpists, writers, choirs etc.).

Each to their own, but it's England for me, (having renewed my FAW tournament ticket, and received my Red Wall membership pack this week).

Besides, we're not on England's radar.

Enjoy the World Cup, whoever you support.

I think it is one thing to support your clubs’ players at the World Cup, I mean I’ve wanted Iceland to do well but I’m not about to have Thor tattooed on my sleeve. Same with England, there are players that I admire and like to watch, but as far as a fluffy feel good factor - the England national team just doesn’t do it for me. When you grow up across the boarder with a different culture, different flag and a unique language - how can you possibly substitute all of that to show favor to a historical rival?
I wouldn’t say “ABE”, just like I won’t be devastated if they do well.

If the media didn’t ram it into our faces at every opportunity maybe and just a maybe they may have a little more support.
But not off me as I’m too far gone

Exactly. You would have thought they had won the bloody thing last week, not scored a last minute winner against one of the weakest sides in the competition. I have no issue with England team or the supporters but the medias are unbearable. God help us if they go onto win it.

None of the local Welsh 'Pool/Man u English Club 'supporting' people I know want the English national team to do well.

Really can't see the problem here?
Yes, we (Wales) are England's first colony but not by choice, through some miracle we are still alive as a nation.
Why would we support England? Would a Spaniard support France?

I personally don’t have a problem with England as a team but the media are deluded and gets right on my wick when they harp on about 1966 and how they can win this World Cup, don’t get me wrong, they have just as much chance than any other team but the media are acting like they’ve already won it.

Annis, the way I look at this is if you are Welsh but follow an English Club then when those club players you support in league games are representing England in a major tournament why would you not give them and their country your support? That's my view for what it's worth.

Agreed Terry, spot on

I was born in Cardiff to an English Mother and My Father was Egyptian, so I want Wales, England and Egypt to do well

Also I always want Scotland & Northern Ireland to do well

If you have no connection to the country then you shouldn't be supporting them, simple as.

I've had huge huge arguments with people about supporting man utd or liverpool as I cannot get my head around it.

In recent years I've stopped caring mind.

Really can't see the problem here?
Yes, we (Wales) are England's first colony but not by choice, through some miracle we are still alive as a nation.
Why would we support England? Would a Spaniard support France?

I think a more appropriate example would be; would a Catalan support Spain? Or would a Sicilian support Italy? Another good example might be: would a Breton support France? There are countless more.

I think the fans of the other home nations would be more supportive of the English team if it wasn't for the moronic behaviour of the English commentators and English media which is sometimes bordering on complete hysteria

Really can't see the problem here?
Yes, we (Wales) are England's first colony but not by choice, through some miracle we are still alive as a nation.
Why would we support England? Would a Spaniard support France?

I think a more appropriate example would be; would a Catalan support Spain? Or would a Sicilian support Italy? Another good example might be: would a Breton support France? There are countless more.

Good point, but we're in a different situation, as Wales has full membership of FIFA and UEFA. We have got it all, really; CCFC play in England, and we've got our own national side.

I often have this debate with my wife (who’s English) and her answer is always “your hypocritical as you play in the English football league and are happy to take the money that’s on offer from that than the Welsh league system)

Whilst I still argue the toss back to her I do think to myself “fair one love” (I have obviously taught her how to argue well over the years)

Really can't see the problem here?
Yes, we (Wales) are England's first colony but not by choice, through some miracle we are still alive as a nation.
Why would we support England? Would a Spaniard support France?

I think a more appropriate example would be; would a Catalan support Spain? Or would a Sicilian support Italy? Another good example might be: would a Breton support France? There are countless more.

Good point, but we're in a different situation, as Wales has full membership of FIFA and UEFA. We have got it all, really; CCFC play in England, and we've got our own national side.

That's what makes it a unique, but singular, situation and one which has, understandably, created a good deal of controversy over time.

I'm just glad the Germans are out

I'm just glad the Germans are out

And me

I will always support the British Nation.
Obviously Wales first if we are involved

I used to hate anything English years ago but now realise we are British... whether the Welsh, English, Scottish nationalists would agree and hang on to shit that happened hundreds of years ago I don't know

But I decided to let go a long time ago. Except Leeds and Bristol, they can f**k right off

For me it has nothing to do with England as a country. I've got loads of English friends, some English relatives and love many places in England.

However, the English media make me detest them as a sporting nation, well primarily football and rugby anyway. Smugness is never far from the surface, which is staggering when you consider that of the 35 World Cup or Euro Finals, England have been in ONE, and that was staged at home !

And just to add a bit of crassness, old jug ears out-smugged everyone with a final auf wiedersehen comment and sickly grin when signing off after the Germany defeat. He just couldn't contain himself. It just typifies the English media and I for one could never support them, even though Gareth Southgate seems a really nice guy.

I used to hate anything English years ago but now realise we are British... whether the Welsh, English, Scottish nationalists would agree and hang on to shit that happened hundreds of years ago I don't know

But I decided to let go a long time ago. Except Leeds and Bristol, they can f**k right off

I agree, I cringe when I hear of Welsh and Scottish nationalists banging on and being bitter about things they've only read about.

I don't want England to win cos I don't want it rammed down my throats for the rest of my life. I like the country.

I used to hate anything English years ago but now realise we are British... whether the Welsh, English, Scottish nationalists would agree and hang on to shit that happened hundreds of years ago I don't know

But I decided to let go a long time ago. Except Leeds and Bristol, they can f**k right off

Well said! But Swansea most of all!

For me it has nothing to do with England as a country. I've got loads of English friends, some English relatives and love many places in England.

However, the English media make me detest them as a sporting nation, well primarily football and rugby anyway. Smugness is never far from the surface, which is staggering when you consider that of the 35 World Cup or Euro Finals, England have been in ONE, and that was staged at home !

And just to add a bit of crassness, old jug ears out-smugged everyone with a final auf wiedersehen comment and sickly grin when signing off after the Germany defeat. He just couldn't contain himself. It just typifies the English media and I for one could never support them, even though Gareth Southgate seems a really nice guy.

Couldn’t have put it better myself.
I share the same viewpoint completely.
Having lived in England my entire life, I’ve been subjected to this over confident, smug crap all my life.
It’s not the team I despise, it’s the media. Cum in my pants as Rooney walks into the pitch kinda stuff.
This media view is often carried on by Ingurlund supporters too believing their own hype. The amount of anti-Welsh shit I’ve taken in the last 2 weeks has been immense.
It’s a shame as I like Southgate and also appreciate we have an English manager, staff, captain and other players.
I wish them well, but ffs not to win it!

I often have this debate with my wife (who’s English) and her answer is always “your hypocritical as you play in the English football league and are happy to take the money that’s on offer from that than the Welsh league system)

Whilst I still argue the toss back to her I do think to myself “fair one love” (I have obviously taught her how to argue well over the years)

She's right!

I want them to lose every game they play.

Can't stand the England team be it football, rugby or tiddly winks.

I will always support the British Nation.
Obviously Wales first if we are involved

Britain is not and never has been 'a Nation' it is a state made up of four individual countries.

I will always support the British Nation.
Obviously Wales first if we are involved

Britain is not and never has been 'a Nation' it is a state made up of four individual countries.

Tell that to the United Nations (the clue is in the name)

being bitter about things they've only read about.

Do tell when the cutoff point is where you're allowed to feel anger and emotion in regards to a topic then.. nobody allowed to feel hatred towards the nazis or emotion in regards to ww 1 or 2 as they've 'only read about it' as well im guessing?