SO...what would be GOOD CROWDS.?

keep reading how poor our support is....

well our average so far this season is 20,547, and this is how that stacks up against previous seasons.
these are our best averages since the 1970 /71 season..the last 45 YEARS.

1ST......27,430....{2013 /14 IN THE PREM }
2ND.....23,194....{ 2010 /11 ..TOP 6 ALL SEASON ..AND BELLERS HAD DECIDED TO COME HERE }
3RD.....22,999....{ 2012 13....WON OUR FIRST 10 HOME GAMES, WERE TOP FROM NOVEMBER..WON THE LEAGUE }
4th......22,100....{ 2011 /12...MALKYS FIRST SEASON..PLAY OFFS AND REACHED A CUP FINAL }
5TH.....21,124...{2014 /15...MANY HAD BOUGHT STS IN THE HOPE WE WOULD STAY UP, MONTHS BEFORE RELEGATION..}
6TH.....20,717... {2009 /10...FIRST YEAR IN CCS..AND ALSO FIRST TIME WE REACH PLAY OFFS AT THIS LEVEL }
7TH.....20,547.........THIS SEASON
8TH.....18,000.....{ 2008 /09 }..LAST YEAR AT NP..

I just cant see where this SHOULD be getting 25k is coming from..which of those years should we be getting better crowds than.?

Trouble is we keep getting compared to clubs that have no bearing or relevance to us? Crowds are what they are and success will increase crowds its that simple really.

Ps musnt forget thousands left with rebrand and thats why lower crowds

These are the averages for almost 50 years. If you take the Premier season out, we are getting the sort of crowds we have always had.
I have said plenty of times, we are not the massive club some seem to think we are, and we do not have a stack of missing fans. The fans are still here apart from those who will only follow a winning team either in the PL, or a team who look like they are heading there. If we are in the top few in the new year, we will attract some of those here today gone tomorrow fans.
In the meantime we will keep getting the sort of gates we have had all season, which is par for the course for this club.

keep reading how poor our support is....

well our average so far this season is 20,547, and this is how that stacks up against previous seasons.
these are our best averages since the 1970 /71 season..the last 45 YEARS.

1ST......27,430....{2013 /14 IN THE PREM }
2ND.....23,194....{ 2010 /11 ..TOP 6 ALL SEASON ..AND BELLERS HAD DECIDED TO COME HERE }
3RD.....22,999....{ 2012 13....WON OUR FIRST 10 HOME GAMES, WERE TOP FROM NOVEMBER..WON THE LEAGUE }
4th......22,100....{ 2011 /12...MALKYS FIRST SEASON..PLAY OFFS AND REACHED A CUP FINAL }
5TH.....21,124...{2014 /15...MANY HAD BOUGHT STS IN THE HOPE WE WOULD STAY UP, MONTHS BEFORE RELEGATION..}
6TH.....20,717... {2009 /10...FIRST YEAR IN CCS..AND ALSO FIRST TIME WE REACH PLAY OFFS AT THIS LEVEL }
7TH.....20,547.........THIS SEASON
8TH.....18,000.....{ 2008 /09 }..LAST YEAR AT NP..

I just cant see where this SHOULD be getting 25k is coming from..which of those years should we be getting better crowds than.?

I think many have argued on here that our crowds have always been below, where they should be, given the size of the catchment area, including the crowd stats that you have provided above
Personally, given the league position, the brand of football, the manager, the facilities, the cost of watching City, I believe that a decent home gate should be around 23k for most games and up to 30k for the big name clubs or top of the table clashes. Yesterdays, crowd was on a par with, Reading and Fulham, I always thought that we are a much bigger club than either of those two.

Crowds will increase in the second half of the season if we are still in same sort of position in the league as we are now.
Personally I think crowds are down slightly from when we were in similar positions few seasons ago (chasing playoffs) is because now we have achieved prem football in recent history, the novelty has worn off for some. I think the thrill of the chase (to prem) was great for some when we hadn't yet achieved it but now we have, think some fans aren't as bothered now until we get there again. Every club has floating fans not just us, they'll come back. I personally don't think crowds will increase to much this side of Xmas now

keep reading how poor our support is....

well our average so far this season is 20,547, and this is how that stacks up against previous seasons.
these are our best averages since the 1970 /71 season..the last 45 YEARS.

1ST......27,430....{2013 /14 IN THE PREM }
2ND.....23,194....{ 2010 /11 ..TOP 6 ALL SEASON ..AND BELLERS HAD DECIDED TO COME HERE }
3RD.....22,999....{ 2012 13....WON OUR FIRST 10 HOME GAMES, WERE TOP FROM NOVEMBER..WON THE LEAGUE }
4th......22,100....{ 2011 /12...MALKYS FIRST SEASON..PLAY OFFS AND REACHED A CUP FINAL }
5TH.....21,124...{2014 /15...MANY HAD BOUGHT STS IN THE HOPE WE WOULD STAY UP, MONTHS BEFORE RELEGATION..}
6TH.....20,717... {2009 /10...FIRST YEAR IN CCS..AND ALSO FIRST TIME WE REACH PLAY OFFS AT THIS LEVEL }
7TH.....20,547.........THIS SEASON
8TH.....18,000.....{ 2008 /09 }..LAST YEAR AT NP..

I just cant see where this SHOULD be getting 25k is coming from..which of those years should we be getting better crowds than.?

I think many have argued on here that our crowds have always been below, where they should be, given the size of the catchment area, including the crowd stats that you have provided above
Personally, given the league position, the brand of football, the manager, the facilities, the cost of watching City, I believe that a decent home gate should be around 23k for most games and up to 30k for the big name clubs or top of the table clashes. Yesterdays, crowd was on a par with, Reading and Fulham, I always thought that we are a much bigger club than either of those two.

like yourself i always thought our crowds would be bigger if we ever became a serious 2nd tier club..but my post was more to point out what we are getting at the moment compared to what we have been getting over recent years really is not that bad..its 2,500 short of our championship season with that gap likely to close if we remain a contender for promotion.

Don’t think anyone is convinced we are top 2 team as yet, we could slip just outside the playoffs even quite easily. Post Xmas will show us what’s what, if we cement a top 2 I reckon we will hit 30k crowds, if we slip back to 18k. That’s a good crowd to be honest. We share a city with a rugby club who like to think they are one of the biggest in the world and they would do anything to get even half our crowds.....

keep reading how poor our support is....

well our average so far this season is 20,547, and this is how that stacks up against previous seasons.
these are our best averages since the 1970 /71 season..the last 45 YEARS.

1ST......27,430....{2013 /14 IN THE PREM }
2ND.....23,194....{ 2010 /11 ..TOP 6 ALL SEASON ..AND BELLERS HAD DECIDED TO COME HERE }
3RD.....22,999....{ 2012 13....WON OUR FIRST 10 HOME GAMES, WERE TOP FROM NOVEMBER..WON THE LEAGUE }
4th......22,100....{ 2011 /12...MALKYS FIRST SEASON..PLAY OFFS AND REACHED A CUP FINAL }
5TH.....21,124...{2014 /15...MANY HAD BOUGHT STS IN THE HOPE WE WOULD STAY UP, MONTHS BEFORE RELEGATION..}
6TH.....20,717... {2009 /10...FIRST YEAR IN CCS..AND ALSO FIRST TIME WE REACH PLAY OFFS AT THIS LEVEL }
7TH.....20,547.........THIS SEASON
8TH.....18,000.....{ 2008 /09 }..LAST YEAR AT NP..

I just cant see where this SHOULD be getting 25k is coming from..which of those years should we be getting better crowds than.?

I think many have argued on here that our crowds have always been below, where they should be, given the size of the catchment area, including the crowd stats that you have provided above
Personally, given the league position, the brand of football, the manager, the facilities, the cost of watching City, I believe that a decent home gate should be around 23k for most games and up to 30k for the big name clubs or top of the table clashes. Yesterdays, crowd was on a par with, Reading and Fulham, I always thought that we are a much bigger club than either of those two.

like yourself i always thought our crowds would be bigger if we ever became a serious 2nd tier club..but my post was more to point out what we are getting at the moment compared to what we have been getting over recent years really is not that bad..its 2,500 short of our championship season with that gap likely to close if we remain a contender for promotion.

Yes, I get that you were merely making comparisons and so why should they be that much higher, however,my surprise with our crowds, is that Cardiff supporters had many excuses in the past to stay away over the past decades, anything from the quality of football being shit, bouncing between div 3 and div 4, then the ground being awful (NP) then our hooligan element putting any family off, then selling all our best players, then of course the infamous rebrand. Now, we have it all decent football, top team in the Championship, excellent facilities, no hooligan problem, excellent manager, decent ticket prices, an owner who invests and lets the manager get on with the job. For the life of me I cannot see why anyone who likes football and lives in Cardiff would now, not go to games on a regular basis.

keep reading how poor our support is....

well our average so far this season is 20,547, and this is how that stacks up against previous seasons.
these are our best averages since the 1970 /71 season..the last 45 YEARS.

1ST......27,430....{2013 /14 IN THE PREM }
2ND.....23,194....{ 2010 /11 ..TOP 6 ALL SEASON ..AND BELLERS HAD DECIDED TO COME HERE }
3RD.....22,999....{ 2012 13....WON OUR FIRST 10 HOME GAMES, WERE TOP FROM NOVEMBER..WON THE LEAGUE }
4th......22,100....{ 2011 /12...MALKYS FIRST SEASON..PLAY OFFS AND REACHED A CUP FINAL }
5TH.....21,124...{2014 /15...MANY HAD BOUGHT STS IN THE HOPE WE WOULD STAY UP, MONTHS BEFORE RELEGATION..}
6TH.....20,717... {2009 /10...FIRST YEAR IN CCS..AND ALSO FIRST TIME WE REACH PLAY OFFS AT THIS LEVEL }
7TH.....20,547.........THIS SEASON
8TH.....18,000.....{ 2008 /09 }..LAST YEAR AT NP..

I just cant see where this SHOULD be getting 25k is coming from..which of those years should we be getting better crowds than.?

I think many have argued on here that our crowds have always been below, where they should be, given the size of the catchment area, including the crowd stats that you have provided above
Personally, given the league position, the brand of football, the manager, the facilities, the cost of watching City, I believe that a decent home gate should be around 23k for most games and up to 30k for the big name clubs or top of the table clashes. Yesterdays, crowd was on a par with, Reading and Fulham, I always thought that we are a much bigger club than either of those two.

like yourself i always thought our crowds would be bigger if we ever became a serious 2nd tier club..but my post was more to point out what we are getting at the moment compared to what we have been getting over recent years really is not that bad..its 2,500 short of our championship season with that gap likely to close if we remain a contender for promotion.

Yes, I get that you were merely making comparisons and so why should they be that much higher, however,my surprise with our crowds, is that Cardiff supporters had many excuses in the past to stay away over the past decades, anything from the quality of football being shit, bouncing between div 3 and div 4, then the ground being awful (NP) then our hooligan element putting any family off, then selling all our best players, then of course the infamous rebrand. Now, we have it all decent football, top team in the Championship, excellent facilities, no hooligan problem, excellent manager, decent ticket prices, an owner who invests and lets the manager get on with the job. For the life of me I cannot see why anyone who likes football and lives in Cardiff would now, not go to games on a regular basis.

i think we need a run in the prem gain support and begin to realise our potential.
it is where a capital City club should be...and the one year we had there was a real slap in the chops tbh...rebrand..argueing..and very poor..nothing happened that season to encourage 1 single new fan to stick,thats for sure.

Two of the top three years we were rebranded so you can’t argue it has anything to do with that. It’s purely success based.

You would think we have an average of under 2,000 with the way our support gets constantly slated on here.

You would think we have an average of under 2,000 with the way our support gets constantly slated on here.

Even in the Premiership we would sell out the big games but there were empty seats for smaller teams. Tickets had been sold but people hadn’t filled the seats.

You would think we have an average of under 2,000 with the way our support gets constantly slated on here.

Even in the Premiership we would sell out the big games but there were empty seats for smaller teams. Tickets had been sold but people hadn’t filled the seats.

thats the same for all clubs..

You would think we have an average of under 2,000 with the way our support gets constantly slated on here.

Even in the Premiership we would sell out the big games but there were empty seats for smaller teams. Tickets had been sold but people hadn’t filled the seats.

thats the same for all clubs..

Maybe but it shouldn’t be a surprise to us.

I think we got carried away with the ‘as big as Barcelona’ stuff.

You would think we have an average of under 2,000 with the way our support gets constantly slated on here.

Even in the Premiership we would sell out the big games but there were empty seats for smaller teams. Tickets had been sold but people hadn’t filled the seats.

thats the same for all clubs..

Maybe but it shouldn’t be a surprise to us.

I think we got carried away with the ‘as big as Barcelona’ stuff.

It certainly isn't a surprise to me. That's why I don't understand why certain people are slating our support. I think our support has been quite good this season.

I would like to thank dogfound for what I think is a brilliant post. A lot of time and effort went into gathering those statistics and dogfound has backed those statistics up by facts, stating very valid reasons for why we got those crowd averages.

No argument can be made against the reasons given for our top 6 attendances imo and for this season to be our 7th highest average over the past 45 years shows our support has been good this season, whatever others say.

This is a post I did a while ago about our crowds.

These are our average attendances and league positions over the last 20 odd years. It is based on current names so dungeon is called league 2. I have put a possible mitigating factor for large (or low) attendance in last column.

I hope this shows that Cardiff have had crowds up during success and down when not so successful for years so this season's low crowds are to be expected and nothing to do with Tan, Slade or Dai Hunt.

Year- Level & Position- Average Attendance- Historical significance
2014/15 Championship (11th) 21,124 Season tickets sold from previous year
2013/14 Premiership (20th) 27,430 First year in top tier in ages
2012/13 Championship (1st) 22,299 Season tickets sold from League cup final + success
2011/12 Championship (6th) 22,100 Large number of 'Golden' season tickets sold year before
2010/11 Championship (4th) 23.194 Bellamy + top of table most of year + play off final year before
2009/10 Championship (4th) 20,717 First season new stadium
2008/09 Championship (7th) 18,000 Last season Ninian, FA Cup Final so season ticket sales high
2007/08 Championship (12th) 13,939 Nothing season low crowds
2006/07 Championship (13th) 15,223 Top of table after 12 games so 20k crowds dropping to 12k
2005/06 Championship (11th) 11,720 Mid table nothing happening crowds sub 10k regularly
2004/05 Championship (16th) 12,976 Sam's dream started to implode. Black Friday etc.
2003/04 Championship (13th) 15,569 First year in Championship
2002/03 League 1 (6th) 13,050 Promoted via playoffs. Money spent on players + Success
2001/02 League 1 (4th) 12,253 Back in League 1 + success
2000/01 League 2 (2nd) 7,962 First year of Sam. Money spent on players + success
1999/00 League 1 (21st) 6,895 Back in League 1 but relegated. Crowds started 10k +
1998/99 League 2 (3rd) 7,131 Frank Burrows takes us up. Success.
1997/98 League 2 (21st) 3,610 Dungeon performing badly. 20k say they went actually 3k
1996/97 League 2 (7th) 3,594 Relative success but still crowds low.
1995/96 League 2 (22nd) 3,420 Hangover from relegation year before.
1994/95 League 1 (22nd) 4,543 Sat lower league most of year, inevitable relegation.
1993/94 League 1 (19th) 6,072 Spike in crowds from promotion plus Cup Run boosted league crowds.
1992/93 League 2 (1st) 8,560 Eddie May's barmy army. Money spent + success under RW.
1991/92 League 2 (9th) 6,191 First bit of relative success in ages boosted crowds. Lots of children got into the City (including me). Large crowds back end of season.

You would think we have an average of under 2,000 with the way our support gets constantly slated on here.

Even in the Premiership we would sell out the big games but there were empty seats for smaller teams. Tickets had been sold but people hadn’t filled the seats.

thats the same for all clubs..

Maybe but it shouldn’t be a surprise to us.

I think we got carried away with the ‘as big as Barcelona’ stuff.

It certainly isn't a surprise to me. That's why I don't understand why certain people are slating our support. I think our support has been quite good this season.

I would like to thank dogfound for what I think is a brilliant post. A lot of time and effort went into gathering those statistics and dogfound has backed those statistics up by facts, stating very valid reasons for why we got those crowd averages.

No argument can be made against the reasons given for our top 6 attendances imo and for this season to be our 7th highest average over the past 45 years shows our support has been good this season, whatever others say.

thank you...

This is a post I did a while ago about our crowds.

These are our average attendances and league positions over the last 20 odd years. It is based on current names so dungeon is called league 2. I have put a possible mitigating factor for large (or low) attendance in last column.

I hope this shows that Cardiff have had crowds up during success and down when not so successful for years so this season's low crowds are to be expected and nothing to do with Tan, Slade or Dai Hunt.

Year- Level & Position- Average Attendance- Historical significance
2014/15 Championship (11th) 21,124 Season tickets sold from previous year
2013/14 Premiership (20th) 27,430 First year in top tier in ages
2012/13 Championship (1st) 22,299 Season tickets sold from League cup final + success
2011/12 Championship (6th) 22,100 Large number of 'Golden' season tickets sold year before
2010/11 Championship (4th) 23.194 Bellamy + top of table most of year + play off final year before
2009/10 Championship (4th) 20,717 First season new stadium
2008/09 Championship (7th) 18,000 Last season Ninian, FA Cup Final so season ticket sales high
2007/08 Championship (12th) 13,939 Nothing season low crowds
2006/07 Championship (13th) 15,223 Top of table after 12 games so 20k crowds dropping to 12k
2005/06 Championship (11th) 11,720 Mid table nothing happening crowds sub 10k regularly
2004/05 Championship (16th) 12,976 Sam's dream started to implode. Black Friday etc.
2003/04 Championship (13th) 15,569 First year in Championship
2002/03 League 1 (6th) 13,050 Promoted via playoffs. Money spent on players + Success
2001/02 League 1 (4th) 12,253 Back in League 1 + success
2000/01 League 2 (2nd) 7,962 First year of Sam. Money spent on players + success
1999/00 League 1 (21st) 6,895 Back in League 1 but relegated. Crowds started 10k +
1998/99 League 2 (3rd) 7,131 Frank Burrows takes us up. Success.
1997/98 League 2 (21st) 3,610 Dungeon performing badly. 20k say they went actually 3k
1996/97 League 2 (7th) 3,594 Relative success but still crowds low.
1995/96 League 2 (22nd) 3,420 Hangover from relegation year before.
1994/95 League 1 (22nd) 4,543 Sat lower league most of year, inevitable relegation.
1993/94 League 1 (19th) 6,072 Spike in crowds from promotion plus Cup Run boosted league crowds.
1992/93 League 2 (1st) 8,560 Eddie May's barmy army. Money spent + success under RW.
1991/92 League 2 (9th) 6,191 First bit of relative success in ages boosted crowds. Lots of children got into the City (including me). Large crowds back end of season.

lots of knock backs in those 25 years...every time people started to return another knock back....1997/98 20 years ago only 3,610...and a gradual climb ever since.

keep reading how poor our support is....

well our average so far this season is 20,547, and this is how that stacks up against previous seasons.
these are our best averages since the 1970 /71 season..the last 45 YEARS.

1ST......27,430....{2013 /14 IN THE PREM }
2ND.....23,194....{ 2010 /11 ..TOP 6 ALL SEASON ..AND BELLERS HAD DECIDED TO COME HERE }
3RD.....22,999....{ 2012 13....WON OUR FIRST 10 HOME GAMES, WERE TOP FROM NOVEMBER..WON THE LEAGUE }
4th......22,100....{ 2011 /12...MALKYS FIRST SEASON..PLAY OFFS AND REACHED A CUP FINAL }
5TH.....21,124...{2014 /15...MANY HAD BOUGHT STS IN THE HOPE WE WOULD STAY UP, MONTHS BEFORE RELEGATION..}
6TH.....20,717... {2009 /10...FIRST YEAR IN CCS..AND ALSO FIRST TIME WE REACH PLAY OFFS AT THIS LEVEL }
7TH.....20,547.........THIS SEASON
8TH.....18,000.....{ 2008 /09 }..LAST YEAR AT NP..

I just cant see where this SHOULD be getting 25k is coming from..which of those years should we be getting better crowds than.?

I think many have argued on here that our crowds have always been below, where they should be, given the size of the catchment area, including the crowd stats that you have provided above
Personally, given the league position, the brand of football, the manager, the facilities, the cost of watching City, I believe that a decent home gate should be around 23k for most games and up to 30k for the big name clubs or top of the table clashes. Yesterdays, crowd was on a par with, Reading and Fulham, I always thought that we are a much bigger club than either of those two.

like yourself i always thought our crowds would be bigger if we ever became a serious 2nd tier club..but my post was more to point out what we are getting at the moment compared to what we have been getting over recent years really is not that bad..its 2,500 short of our championship season with that gap likely to close if we remain a contender for promotion.

Yes, I get that you were merely making comparisons and so why should they be that much higher, however,my surprise with our crowds, is that Cardiff supporters had many excuses in the past to stay away over the past decades, anything from the quality of football being shit, bouncing between div 3 and div 4, then the ground being awful (NP) then our hooligan element putting any family off, then selling all our best players, then of course the infamous rebrand. Now, we have it all decent football, top team in the Championship, excellent facilities, no hooligan problem, excellent manager, decent ticket prices, an owner who invests and lets the manager get on with the job. For the life of me I cannot see why anyone who likes football and lives in Cardiff would now, not go to games on a regular basis.

It's quite straightforward really and no soul searching or scratching of the head is required.

Although many people like to believe otherwise, Cardiff is not and probably never will be a footballing city, unlike places like Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle who are mad for it.

To a lesser extent places such as Derby, Norwich and Sheffield are also football cities, hence their much larger attendances.

Prestigious games will always result in an attendance spike but this will never be maintained unless we are continually successful,which very few clubs are.

We are just not a city that will turn out in large numbers through thick and thin. An earlier poster suggested that because we've recently achieved Premier League status, the excitement is not there this time around for some supporters and I think he's right. It's a case of 'been there, done that'.

Just enjoy the football and stop the 'hand-wringing' about our average crowds !

not so sure about the above post and Cardiff not being and never will be a football city..

what atracts fans is success or relative success..and the longer it lasts the more fans will be in the habit of going and likely to stick ..likewise the more set backs and poor years you get the more fans you lose.... all the clubs from those cities youve mentioned have had a minimum of 10 top tier years during my time watching Cardiff..most are permanent prem or almost permanent....and only Sheffield United out of them has gone down to tier 4 { for 1 season } compared to our yoyoing between tier 3 and 4 for ..18 years...
all things considered i dont think our crowds at the moment are terrible but thats not to say i dont think they would be much better should we ever have a run of top flight years

Also a lot of people don't realise our history is a lot worse than they thought.last major silverware 1927. Last decent finish in top flight 1954 (10th).can you imagine Manchester Sheffield Newcastle etc having that as their heritage.its in our dna that we will fail so we've got a historical fickleness and 1 game loyalty.

[quote="skiprat"]Also a lot of people don't realise our history is a lot worse than they thought.last major silverware 1927. Last decent finish in top flight 1954 (10th).can you imagine Manchester Sheffield Newcastle etc having that as their heritage.its in our dna that we will fail so we've got a historical fickleness and 1 game loyalty.[/quote

Call it heritage, call it whatever, some cities are more fanatical about football than others. Newcastle for instance have not won silverware since 1969 and yet their fans turn out in extraordinary numbers. And remember, Cardiff has a larger population and a bigger catchment area.

Even if we were regular residents of the Premier League, we still wouldn't pull in anywhere near 50,000 every week.

Bear in mind that in the last 10 years, by our standards we've had the most successful and exciting times since the 1920's. How many other teams of our stature have reached 2 major cup finals in this period and had a promotion to the promised land ? That alone should secure a regular 20,000 + home crowd but it doesn't.

So I stick to my guns that Cardiff is not really a football loving city.

Also a lot of people don't realise our history is a lot worse than they thought.last major silverware 1927. Last decent finish in top flight 1954 (10th).can you imagine Manchester Sheffield Newcastle etc having that as their heritage.its in our dna that we will fail so we've got a historical fickleness and 1 game loyalty.[/quote

Call it heritage, call it whatever, some cities are more fanatical about football than others. Newcastle for instance have not won silverware since 1969 and yet their fans turn out in extraordinary numbers. And remember, Cardiff has a larger population and a bigger catchment area.

Even if we were regular residents of the Premier League, we still wouldn't pull in anywhere near 50,000 every week.

Bear in mind that in the last 10 years, by our standards we've had the most successful and exciting times since the 1920's. How many other teams of our stature have reached 2 major cup finals in this period and had a promotion to the promised land ? That alone should secure a regular 20,000 + home crowd but it doesn't.

So I stick to my guns that Cardiff is not really a football loving city.

I'd reluctantly agree with this - although City fans are as die-hard fanatical as the best - unless we're in the Premiership for a long, long, long time and have some layer of success - the odd cup win here and there - or even just flirting with the possibility of it every now and then a al Newcastle, in terms of size we will never have anything more than a moderate fan base whilst we are in the second tier - which will be inflated by Prem tourists if we go up, who will then subsequently bugger off if we go back down.

There is simply less of us - Sheffield has a population around 200K more than Cardiff for example.

Yes, we have a wider theoretical catchment area but we also have a national rugby league that is also pretty much largely condensed into that same region, plus four provincial rugby sides, three football league sides (one of whom is Premier league) and a national football league which is insanely running at the same time (MAKE IT A SUMMER LEAGUE!!!) at least one decent Ice Hockey side - that catchment area becomes eaten up pretty quickly.

Newcastle by example have a similar sized potential reach but they have only a one football rival and then a small rugby union side and an even smaller rugby league side to compete with - to put it into context the rugby sides share a stadium which rarely has more than 4,000 people in it.

For me better sides for comparison would be the likes Hull, Stockport or Coventry who are all have a similar potential reach as us, but also have a lot of competition within their area (be it other football sides or other sports).

Also a lot of people don't realise our history is a lot worse than they thought.last major silverware 1927. Last decent finish in top flight 1954 (10th).can you imagine Manchester Sheffield Newcastle etc having that as their heritage.its in our dna that we will fail so we've got a historical fickleness and 1 game loyalty.[/quote

Call it heritage, call it whatever, some cities are more fanatical about football than others. Newcastle for instance have not won silverware since 1969 and yet their fans turn out in extraordinary numbers. And remember, Cardiff has a larger population and a bigger catchment area.

Even if we were regular residents of the Premier League, we still wouldn't pull in anywhere near 50,000 every week.

Bear in mind that in the last 10 years, by our standards we've had the most successful and exciting times since the 1920's. How many other teams of our stature have reached 2 major cup finals in this period and had a promotion to the promised land ? That alone should secure a regular 20,000 + home crowd but it doesn't.

So I stick to my guns that Cardiff is not really a football loving city.

by OUR standards ...and of OUR stature are the key phrases...yes its OUR best period for years..but 1 season in the prem..?
47 clubs have competed in that league and of the 47 only Huddersfield and Brighton have won less prem games or scored less prem goals.{ both can achieve more this season }.
13th highest in the country. ....thats what our attendance was the one absolutely aweful season we had there.and would have been higher had the stadium been bigger .
Cardiff is only not a football city because we have never had any real success.trying to pass off this last 10 years in some sort of comparison with Newcastle doesnt work though...

Also a lot of people don't realise our history is a lot worse than they thought.last major silverware 1927. Last decent finish in top flight 1954 (10th).can you imagine Manchester Sheffield Newcastle etc having that as their heritage.its in our dna that we will fail so we've got a historical fickleness and 1 game loyalty.[/quote

Call it heritage, call it whatever, some cities are more fanatical about football than others. Newcastle for instance have not won silverware since 1969 and yet their fans turn out in extraordinary numbers. And remember, Cardiff has a larger population and a bigger catchment area.

Even if we were regular residents of the Premier League, we still wouldn't pull in anywhere near 50,000 every week.

Bear in mind that in the last 10 years, by our standards we've had the most successful and exciting times since the 1920's. How many other teams of our stature have reached 2 major cup finals in this period and had a promotion to the promised land ? That alone should secure a regular 20,000 + home crowd but it doesn't.

So I stick to my guns that Cardiff is not really a football loving city.

by OUR standards ...and of OUR stature are the key phrases...yes its OUR best period for years..but 1 season in the prem..?
47 clubs have competed in that league and of the 47 only Huddersfield and Brighton have won less prem games or scored less prem goals.{ both can achieve more this season }.
13th highest in the country. ....thats what our attendance was the one absolutely aweful season we had there.and would have been higher had the stadium been bigger .
Cardiff is only not a football city because we have never had any real success.trying to pass off this last 10 years in some sort of comparison with Newcastle doesnt work though...

I only use the Newcastle comparison to show what a fanatical support base looks like. If you check out my earlier post, you will see that I agree with you in that we cannot maintain a big following without a long period of success, ie a lengthy stay in the Prem League.