The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:29 am
By SAM LAW
4 JAN 2017
On January 11, 2007, then Cardiff City manager Dave Jones took a punt on signing a 22-year-old midfielder from Aston Villa called Peter Whittingham.
He had been part of Villa’s FA Youth Cup-winning side four years earlier, but failed to hold down a regular place in the senior side despite his reputation as a skilful player with a thumping shot.Loan spells followed at Derby and Burnley before Jones swooped.
After signing for an extremely-modest £350,000, the midfield maestro went on to become a legend in the Welsh capital. Indeed, 10 years later, Whittingham is the ninth in the all-time Cardiff City scoring charts and is no doubt hungry for more.
Also sitting ninth in the Cardiff City appearance table, Whittingham isn’t shy of experience. In his 398 games for City, he has only missed 10 through injury, and has come off the bench a mere 37 times.
But, despite his status among the club’s fanbase, there is now a fierce debate over whether the 32-year-old should be in the team at all.
Some argue he is essential to the Bluebirds side, citing his pinpoint set-piece delivery and natural passing ability as too important to simply ditch.
With his contract expiring at the end of the season, and with Cardiff recording a fine 1-0 victory over Aston Villa in his absence on Monday, Sam Law looks at the evidence around this major talking point.
How important has he been over the last two seasons?
Whittingham has been an almost ever-present on the teamsheet in the last two seasons, despite having three different managers. The former Villa midfielder is just behind Joe Ralls in terms of appearances, but has been much more valuable in terms of his attacking threat.
It seems that every manager that comes into the club sees him as a precious asset and Warnock has already admitted he’s surprised by Whittingham’s work-rate and energy. That’s before we get to his set-piece ability.
Whitts is as reliable as it gets when it comes to taking free-kicks or penalties, an attribute he’s had throughout his whole footballing career.
Most Cardiff City appearances in past two seasons (Starting or from bench)
Most Cardiff City appearances (this season and last)
66
Joe Ralls
59
Peter Whittingham
59
Lee Peltier
59
Matthew Connolly
58
Craig Noone
What is Cardiff's record like with and without him?
The 32-year-old’s appearance record over the last two seasons is exceptional, missing only 11 of City’s 70 games. Despite his age, Whitts isn’t one prone to injury and most of his absences have been due to suspension.
So, what difference does his presence or absence make to the team?
This is where the stats make interesting reading.
Cardiff City's win percentage
30%
With Whittingham (starting or sub)
54.5%
Without Whittingham
Cardiff City's record WITH Whittingham (Starting or from bench)
P 59, W 18, D 20, L 21. Win % - 30%
Cardiff City's record WITHOUT Whittingham
P 11, W 6, D 3, L 2. Win % - 54.5%
As you can see, Cardiff’s win record is significantly higher when he hasn’t played, although this is obviously taken from far fewer games.
Of the 11 games he’s missed for various reasons, Cardiff have won six and only lost two – a significant win percentage improvement from 30% to 54.5%.
In those six fixtures the team have won without Whittingham, the Bluebirds have managed some impressive displays over the likes of Villa and Brentford.
Nevertheless, he probably could have given a helping hand in the two defeats that MK Dons inflicted on the Bluebirds, one of those being the 2-1 loss in the FA Cup at Stadium MK.
It’s a difficult one to fully explain, and credit has to be given to the likes of Aron Gunnarsson and Ralls who have come into the side in his absence and stepped up to the mark, putting in some brilliant performances.
So, do the stats add weight to the argument that Whittingham’s wand of a left foot is not perhaps as important to success as some would have you believe?
In terms of pure ability, there a few better in the division, but does that necessarily make for a well-oiled cohesive machine? Do the other players look to Whittingham too much when he does play, perhaps?
What does Whittingham actually offer?
And so we come to the strongest evidence that Whittingham is indeed imperative to Cardiff’s success.
Russell Slade, Paul Trollope and Neil Warnock have all used him in a number of different roles, mainly in his most natural central-midfield position.
He was also used as a No.10 and a deeper quarter-back role during Trollope’s era of 3-5-2. Slade also moved the former England U-21 international back to the left-hand side of midfield for a time, despite his loss of pace.
However, Warnock seems to have figured out he’s at his best when at the heart of matters, with Whittingham boasting five goals and five assists so far this season, the highest in the squad.
If we look at the goal and assists stats for the last two seasons, we can see his influence.
Top Goalscorers
1. Anthony Pilkington - 14
2. Peter Whittingham - 11
3. Craig Noone - 5
4. Sean Morrison - 5
5. Lex Immers - 5
Top Assists
1. Peter Whittingham - 12
2. Joe Ralls - 8
3. Sean Morrison - 5
4. Anthony Pilkington - 3
5. Aron Gunnarsson - 3
What's the argument for playing without Whitts?
In the victory over Villa, Warnock’s Bluebirds looked far more solid in the middle of the park with Sol Bamba playing in an unfamiliar defensive midfield position that brought a clean sheet.
With Gunnarsson destroying in front of him, and the engine of Ralls providing the dynamism, Cardiff looked more fluid and cohesive than they have done.
Ralls got the winner and City didn’t struggle from set-pieces either, with Joe Bennett looking assured on corners and free-kicks. It was his corner that led to the Ralls goal.
What's the argument for playing with Whitts?
When City were under pressure from Steve Bruce’s Villa they weren’t composed enough with the ball. Whittingham is a player who is intelligent in possession and can pick out a pass with what looks like no effort at all. Too many times on Monday City gave the ball straight back to Villa for them to mount yet another attack. That little bit of flair and composure was missing, and that’s what Whittingham brings.
Warnock also decided to drop him to the bench against Newcastle in favour of Kieran Richardson not so long ago. The 68-year-old will be the first to admit that wasn’t the best decision.
Two goals for the Magpies before half-time all but condemned Cardiff to defeat. However, three minutes after he came on, Whittingham produced a wonderful effort to bring his team back into the game. That gave City some hope, and they could have scored one or two more before the final whistle. It was a cameo that reminded us he is still the best on Cardiff’s books in terms of sheer footballing ability.
Peter Whittingham this season
5
Goals
5
Assists
What about the future?
Topping both the goal and assist charts so far this season, it is evident that Whittingham is a key player in Warnock’s plans. However, it remains to be seen if he will make the starting XI against Fulham on Sunday, or Bristol City in the Severnside Derby that follows.
With his contract set to expire in the summer of 2017, the Bluebirds have a decision to make, with plenty of Championship rivals sure to be interested if they drag their heels.
Whittingham undoubtedly still adds great value to this Cardiff squad, but whether he remains one of the first names on the team sheet is an issue you sense will be keeping Warnock occupied in the weeks ahead.
4 JAN 2017
On January 11, 2007, then Cardiff City manager Dave Jones took a punt on signing a 22-year-old midfielder from Aston Villa called Peter Whittingham.
He had been part of Villa’s FA Youth Cup-winning side four years earlier, but failed to hold down a regular place in the senior side despite his reputation as a skilful player with a thumping shot.Loan spells followed at Derby and Burnley before Jones swooped.
After signing for an extremely-modest £350,000, the midfield maestro went on to become a legend in the Welsh capital. Indeed, 10 years later, Whittingham is the ninth in the all-time Cardiff City scoring charts and is no doubt hungry for more.
Also sitting ninth in the Cardiff City appearance table, Whittingham isn’t shy of experience. In his 398 games for City, he has only missed 10 through injury, and has come off the bench a mere 37 times.
But, despite his status among the club’s fanbase, there is now a fierce debate over whether the 32-year-old should be in the team at all.
Some argue he is essential to the Bluebirds side, citing his pinpoint set-piece delivery and natural passing ability as too important to simply ditch.
With his contract expiring at the end of the season, and with Cardiff recording a fine 1-0 victory over Aston Villa in his absence on Monday, Sam Law looks at the evidence around this major talking point.
How important has he been over the last two seasons?
Whittingham has been an almost ever-present on the teamsheet in the last two seasons, despite having three different managers. The former Villa midfielder is just behind Joe Ralls in terms of appearances, but has been much more valuable in terms of his attacking threat.
It seems that every manager that comes into the club sees him as a precious asset and Warnock has already admitted he’s surprised by Whittingham’s work-rate and energy. That’s before we get to his set-piece ability.
Whitts is as reliable as it gets when it comes to taking free-kicks or penalties, an attribute he’s had throughout his whole footballing career.
Most Cardiff City appearances in past two seasons (Starting or from bench)
Most Cardiff City appearances (this season and last)
66
Joe Ralls
59
Peter Whittingham
59
Lee Peltier
59
Matthew Connolly
58
Craig Noone
What is Cardiff's record like with and without him?
The 32-year-old’s appearance record over the last two seasons is exceptional, missing only 11 of City’s 70 games. Despite his age, Whitts isn’t one prone to injury and most of his absences have been due to suspension.
So, what difference does his presence or absence make to the team?
This is where the stats make interesting reading.
Cardiff City's win percentage
30%
With Whittingham (starting or sub)
54.5%
Without Whittingham
Cardiff City's record WITH Whittingham (Starting or from bench)
P 59, W 18, D 20, L 21. Win % - 30%
Cardiff City's record WITHOUT Whittingham
P 11, W 6, D 3, L 2. Win % - 54.5%
As you can see, Cardiff’s win record is significantly higher when he hasn’t played, although this is obviously taken from far fewer games.
Of the 11 games he’s missed for various reasons, Cardiff have won six and only lost two – a significant win percentage improvement from 30% to 54.5%.
In those six fixtures the team have won without Whittingham, the Bluebirds have managed some impressive displays over the likes of Villa and Brentford.
Nevertheless, he probably could have given a helping hand in the two defeats that MK Dons inflicted on the Bluebirds, one of those being the 2-1 loss in the FA Cup at Stadium MK.
It’s a difficult one to fully explain, and credit has to be given to the likes of Aron Gunnarsson and Ralls who have come into the side in his absence and stepped up to the mark, putting in some brilliant performances.
So, do the stats add weight to the argument that Whittingham’s wand of a left foot is not perhaps as important to success as some would have you believe?
In terms of pure ability, there a few better in the division, but does that necessarily make for a well-oiled cohesive machine? Do the other players look to Whittingham too much when he does play, perhaps?
What does Whittingham actually offer?
And so we come to the strongest evidence that Whittingham is indeed imperative to Cardiff’s success.
Russell Slade, Paul Trollope and Neil Warnock have all used him in a number of different roles, mainly in his most natural central-midfield position.
He was also used as a No.10 and a deeper quarter-back role during Trollope’s era of 3-5-2. Slade also moved the former England U-21 international back to the left-hand side of midfield for a time, despite his loss of pace.
However, Warnock seems to have figured out he’s at his best when at the heart of matters, with Whittingham boasting five goals and five assists so far this season, the highest in the squad.
If we look at the goal and assists stats for the last two seasons, we can see his influence.
Top Goalscorers
1. Anthony Pilkington - 14
2. Peter Whittingham - 11
3. Craig Noone - 5
4. Sean Morrison - 5
5. Lex Immers - 5
Top Assists
1. Peter Whittingham - 12
2. Joe Ralls - 8
3. Sean Morrison - 5
4. Anthony Pilkington - 3
5. Aron Gunnarsson - 3
What's the argument for playing without Whitts?
In the victory over Villa, Warnock’s Bluebirds looked far more solid in the middle of the park with Sol Bamba playing in an unfamiliar defensive midfield position that brought a clean sheet.
With Gunnarsson destroying in front of him, and the engine of Ralls providing the dynamism, Cardiff looked more fluid and cohesive than they have done.
Ralls got the winner and City didn’t struggle from set-pieces either, with Joe Bennett looking assured on corners and free-kicks. It was his corner that led to the Ralls goal.
What's the argument for playing with Whitts?
When City were under pressure from Steve Bruce’s Villa they weren’t composed enough with the ball. Whittingham is a player who is intelligent in possession and can pick out a pass with what looks like no effort at all. Too many times on Monday City gave the ball straight back to Villa for them to mount yet another attack. That little bit of flair and composure was missing, and that’s what Whittingham brings.
Warnock also decided to drop him to the bench against Newcastle in favour of Kieran Richardson not so long ago. The 68-year-old will be the first to admit that wasn’t the best decision.
Two goals for the Magpies before half-time all but condemned Cardiff to defeat. However, three minutes after he came on, Whittingham produced a wonderful effort to bring his team back into the game. That gave City some hope, and they could have scored one or two more before the final whistle. It was a cameo that reminded us he is still the best on Cardiff’s books in terms of sheer footballing ability.
Peter Whittingham this season
5
Goals
5
Assists
What about the future?
Topping both the goal and assist charts so far this season, it is evident that Whittingham is a key player in Warnock’s plans. However, it remains to be seen if he will make the starting XI against Fulham on Sunday, or Bristol City in the Severnside Derby that follows.
With his contract set to expire in the summer of 2017, the Bluebirds have a decision to make, with plenty of Championship rivals sure to be interested if they drag their heels.
Whittingham undoubtedly still adds great value to this Cardiff squad, but whether he remains one of the first names on the team sheet is an issue you sense will be keeping Warnock occupied in the weeks ahead.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:53 am
I think it ultimately depends on who we're playing against.
Whitts set piece delivery is invaluable at times, it gives us a much bigger goal threat. He has this class and composure on the ball that is unrivaled in our squad. But despite this, as well as the fact that he's covered an incredible amount of distance in every game he's played under Warnock, I always get the feeling that we just miss a bit of midfield steel with him in the middle. For every extra goal we score when he's in the team, we seem to concede.
You can't afford luxury players in this division, and it's a real shame that we can't find a role that frees him from defensive duties and lets him flourish in attack like he did in his break-out season under Dave Jones.
At the end of the day though, he tops our scoring and assist charts and gives us qualities that we can't replace, so deserves to be in the team on merit just now. That said, he's by no means a guaranteed starter, especially away from home against solid midfield 3's.
Despite what anyone thinks about his place in the team, the one thing we can all agree that he's a Cardiff legend.
Whitts set piece delivery is invaluable at times, it gives us a much bigger goal threat. He has this class and composure on the ball that is unrivaled in our squad. But despite this, as well as the fact that he's covered an incredible amount of distance in every game he's played under Warnock, I always get the feeling that we just miss a bit of midfield steel with him in the middle. For every extra goal we score when he's in the team, we seem to concede.
You can't afford luxury players in this division, and it's a real shame that we can't find a role that frees him from defensive duties and lets him flourish in attack like he did in his break-out season under Dave Jones.
At the end of the day though, he tops our scoring and assist charts and gives us qualities that we can't replace, so deserves to be in the team on merit just now. That said, he's by no means a guaranteed starter, especially away from home against solid midfield 3's.
Despite what anyone thinks about his place in the team, the one thing we can all agree that he's a Cardiff legend.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:54 am
G3vans wrote:Despite what anyone thinks about his place in the team, the one thing we can all agree that he's a Cardiff legend.
Spot on with this
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:57 am
I can see the method behind Warnock dropping him against Newcastle ,clearly it didn't work out with Richardson though.At home hes still a level above most technically and the first name on the teamsheet. Away from home against an aggressive attacking team sometimes he can be a passenger
Without doubt should get a contract extension though
Without doubt should get a contract extension though
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:43 am
I wish articles that use statistics would give the full picture and not that pathetic example of win percentage without PW. What was our win percentage before PW arrived at the club? He has never been the sole reason for our victories or defeats.
I would like to see the stats on the ground he covers, his tackles made, his forward pass completion, his assists, and his goals. The most interesting stat would be his tackles made because I believe he would be close if not equal to Gunner. Just because he hasn't got a beared and isn't a beast like AG, people seem to think he doesn't tackle.
Simple argument for me. No one at Cardiff is irreplaceable but he has over 80 assists and over 90 goals in 360 odd games. His legs aren't gone and he's never relied on pace. There isn't anyone currently in our squad like him or can match his technical ability. Until we sign someone better than him it's a no brainier he has to stay. It's sad to say but I think some people will only realise how good he was when he actually leaves the city.
I would like to see the stats on the ground he covers, his tackles made, his forward pass completion, his assists, and his goals. The most interesting stat would be his tackles made because I believe he would be close if not equal to Gunner. Just because he hasn't got a beared and isn't a beast like AG, people seem to think he doesn't tackle.
Simple argument for me. No one at Cardiff is irreplaceable but he has over 80 assists and over 90 goals in 360 odd games. His legs aren't gone and he's never relied on pace. There isn't anyone currently in our squad like him or can match his technical ability. Until we sign someone better than him it's a no brainier he has to stay. It's sad to say but I think some people will only realise how good he was when he actually leaves the city.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:01 am
Nickoblue23 wrote:I wish articles that use statistics would give the full picture and not that pathetic example of win percentage without PW. What was our win percentage before PW arrived at the club? He has never been the sole reason for our victories or defeats.
I would like to see the stats on the ground he covers, his tackles made, his forward pass completion, his assists, and his goals. The most interesting stat would be his tackles made because I believe he would be close if not equal to Gunner. Just because he hasn't got a beared and isn't a beast like AG, people seem to think he doesn't tackle.
Simple argument for me. No one at Cardiff is irreplaceable but he has over 80 assists and over 90 goals in 360 odd games. His legs aren't gone and he's never relied on pace. There isn't anyone currently in our squad like him or can match his technical ability. Until we sign someone better than him it's a no brainier he has to stay. It's sad to say but I think some people will only realise how good he was when he actually leaves the city.
I could not agree more with everything you say.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:05 am
Baffles me why it's even a debate, the guy is still coming up with the goods and is a club legend.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:19 am
How many of those goals were pens tho.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:21 am
As far as I'm concerned Wittingham should always be part of the first team squad
Last Saturday we had some free kicks awarded in the Whitts area
It would have been quite possible that we would have scored another goal had he played
His corners were also missed
He may not possess speed but he does provide accurate free kicks and corners aswell as sublime passing and shooting
Would always be in my first team
Last Saturday we had some free kicks awarded in the Whitts area
It would have been quite possible that we would have scored another goal had he played
His corners were also missed
He may not possess speed but he does provide accurate free kicks and corners aswell as sublime passing and shooting
Would always be in my first team
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:23 am
GotMeSingingTheBlues wrote:Baffles me why it's even a debate, the guy is still coming up with the goods and is a club legend.
Exactly! - what a superb buy by Dave Jones at £350k
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:32 am
Brilliant buy he is a club legend but it is time to upgrade now he's coming to his end of his usefulNess for a first team starter, people use statistics alot to big him up but the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:01 pm
wez1927 wrote:the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
Would you like to back up that "FACT" with some hard evidence please Wez?
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:01 pm
wez1927 wrote: usefulNess
WTF?!?!?
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:29 pm
wez1927 wrote:Brilliant buy he is a club legend but it is time to upgrade now he's coming to his end of his usefulNess for a first team starter, people use statistics alot to big him up but the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
it would be interesting if the sample was bigger and not just shoe horned to make a point.
eg. Brian Murphy 2 games 1 win 50% does that also make it obvious to you that we win more with him than Marshall.
i think the real stat is 59 games for 3 different managers
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:50 pm
Couldnt agree more... Why is the sample only over the last 2 years when we've had to average at best managers and nothing for him to pass to up front. Wouldnt mind seeing his stats when we won the league or under DJ when we were challenge every year. Shocking article with half of the picture!!!
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:53 pm
Another way of looking at it. How would you feel if he was on the team sheet of the opposition?
Even a relegation threatened team could be immensely dangerous if he was in the middle of the park.
His killer pass is still there, it's just no one in the team are making the runs anymore.
Even a relegation threatened team could be immensely dangerous if he was in the middle of the park.
His killer pass is still there, it's just no one in the team are making the runs anymore.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:54 pm
We should always be looking to the future so looking for Whitts' future replacement is something we should be doing but whether to give him a new contract is a no brainer. He's still doing the business and brings a touch of class to a workman like midfield. His game time is obviously going to become a bit more limited over the next couple of years but having him as an option and around the club can only be a positive and a help to any future midfielders that come in.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:55 pm
Nickoblue23 wrote:Couldnt agree more... Why is the sample only over the last 2 years when we've had to average at best managers and nothing for him to pass to up front. Wouldnt mind seeing his stats when we won the league or under DJ when we were challenge every year. Shocking article with half of the picture!!!
In the Championshop winning season our points per game ratio was better with him in the team than when he wasnt but if you listen to the Whitts bashers on here we won the league because he was dropped for the last few months of the season. Say it enough times and becomes fact rather than bullshit.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:22 pm
dogfound wrote:wez1927 wrote:Brilliant buy he is a club legend but it is time to upgrade now he's coming to his end of his usefulNess for a first team starter, people use statistics alot to big him up but the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
it would be interesting if the sample was bigger and not just shoe horned to make a point.
eg. Brian Murphy 2 games 1 win 50% does that also make it obvious to you that we win more with him than Marshall.
i think the real stat is 59 games for 3 different managers
Also, the stats are flawed. Surely the stat should be starting and not starting?
He started as a sub against Newcastle, come on when we were 2 down and got us back in the game but according to this little set of stats and Wez we lost that game because Whitts was involved.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:32 pm
polo wrote:wez1927 wrote:the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
Would you like to back up that "FACT" with some hard evidence please Wez?
Read the article
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:33 pm
polo wrote:dogfound wrote:wez1927 wrote:Brilliant buy he is a club legend but it is time to upgrade now he's coming to his end of his usefulNess for a first team starter, people use statistics alot to big him up but the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
it would be interesting if the sample was bigger and not just shoe horned to make a point.
eg. Brian Murphy 2 games 1 win 50% does that also make it obvious to you that we win more with him than Marshall.
i think the real stat is 59 games for 3 different managers
Also, the stats are flawed. Surely the stat should be starting and not starting?
He started as a sub against Newcastle, come on when we were 2 down and got us back in the game but according to this little set of stats and Wez we lost that game because Whitts was involved.
Your the one using stats all the time especially about assists in last week's thread
are you Whitts in disguise
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:42 pm
Nickoblue23 wrote:I wish articles that use statistics would give the full picture and not that pathetic example of win percentage without PW. What was our win percentage before PW arrived at the club? He has never been the sole reason for our victories or defeats.
I would like to see the stats on the ground he covers, his tackles made, his forward pass completion, his assists, and his goals. The most interesting stat would be his tackles made because I believe he would be close if not equal to Gunner. Just because he hasn't got a beared and isn't a beast like AG, people seem to think he doesn't tackle.
Simple argument for me. No one at Cardiff is irreplaceable but he has over 80 assists and over 90 goals in 360 odd games. His legs aren't gone and he's never relied on pace. There isn't anyone currently in our squad like him or can match his technical ability. Until we sign someone better than him it's a no brainier he has to stay. It's sad to say but I think some people will only realise how good he was when he actually leaves the city.
I would love to know the % of times when he goes missing in games? I don't argue he has been a great servant to the club but come on we know there have been times when games have passed him by on a regular basis.
Also he always seems to have these golden periods when his contract is up for renewal? That's why if he is given a new one now I would like to see it heavily incentivised so has a reason to deliver his best every game rather than take a few games off like he has done so many times before.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:49 pm
Tony Blue Williams wrote:Nickoblue23 wrote:I wish articles that use statistics would give the full picture and not that pathetic example of win percentage without PW. What was our win percentage before PW arrived at the club? He has never been the sole reason for our victories or defeats.
I would like to see the stats on the ground he covers, his tackles made, his forward pass completion, his assists, and his goals. The most interesting stat would be his tackles made because I believe he would be close if not equal to Gunner. Just because he hasn't got a beared and isn't a beast like AG, people seem to think he doesn't tackle.
Simple argument for me. No one at Cardiff is irreplaceable but he has over 80 assists and over 90 goals in 360 odd games. His legs aren't gone and he's never relied on pace. There isn't anyone currently in our squad like him or can match his technical ability. Until we sign someone better than him it's a no brainier he has to stay. It's sad to say but I think some people will only realise how good he was when he actually leaves the city.
I would love to know the % of times when he goes missing in games? I don't argue he has been a great servant to the club but come on we know there have been times when games have passed him by on a regular basis.
Also he always seems to have these golden periods when his contract is up for renewal? That's why if he is given a new one now I would like to see it heavily incentivised so has a reason to deliver his best every game rather than take a few games off like he has done so many times before.
Whilst others in the squad will get paid much more than him for sitting in the stands. What an incentive!!!
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:50 pm
wez1927 wrote:polo wrote:dogfound wrote:wez1927 wrote:Brilliant buy he is a club legend but it is time to upgrade now he's coming to his end of his usefulNess for a first team starter, people use statistics alot to big him up but the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
it would be interesting if the sample was bigger and not just shoe horned to make a point.
eg. Brian Murphy 2 games 1 win 50% does that also make it obvious to you that we win more with him than Marshall.
i think the real stat is 59 games for 3 different managers
Also, the stats are flawed. Surely the stat should be starting and not starting?
He started as a sub against Newcastle, come on when we were 2 down and got us back in the game but according to this little set of stats and Wez we lost that game because Whitts was involved.
Your the one using stats all the time especially about assists in last week's thread
No disguise needed Wez my support of PW7 is common knowledge.
You meanwhile seem to think the next Steven Gerrard is playing in the lower leagues somewhere and we can snap him up for 350k
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:51 pm
Neil Warnock "You will be here as long as I am here Peter". Enough said.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:56 pm
polo wrote:wez1927 wrote:polo wrote:dogfound wrote:wez1927 wrote:Brilliant buy he is a club legend but it is time to upgrade now he's coming to his end of his usefulNess for a first team starter, people use statistics alot to big him up but the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
it would be interesting if the sample was bigger and not just shoe horned to make a point.
eg. Brian Murphy 2 games 1 win 50% does that also make it obvious to you that we win more with him than Marshall.
i think the real stat is 59 games for 3 different managers
Also, the stats are flawed. Surely the stat should be starting and not starting?
He started as a sub against Newcastle, come on when we were 2 down and got us back in the game but according to this little set of stats and Wez we lost that game because Whitts was involved.
Your the one using stats all the time especially about assists in last week's thread
No disguise needed Wez my support of PW7 is common knowledge.
You meanwhile seem to think the next Steven Gerrard is playing in the lower leagues somewhere and we can snap him up for 350k
Players have to come from somewhere why not ?
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:09 pm
polo wrote:Tony Blue Williams wrote:Nickoblue23 wrote:I wish articles that use statistics would give the full picture and not that pathetic example of win percentage without PW. What was our win percentage before PW arrived at the club? He has never been the sole reason for our victories or defeats.
I would like to see the stats on the ground he covers, his tackles made, his forward pass completion, his assists, and his goals. The most interesting stat would be his tackles made because I believe he would be close if not equal to Gunner. Just because he hasn't got a beared and isn't a beast like AG, people seem to think he doesn't tackle.
Simple argument for me. No one at Cardiff is irreplaceable but he has over 80 assists and over 90 goals in 360 odd games. His legs aren't gone and he's never relied on pace. There isn't anyone currently in our squad like him or can match his technical ability. Until we sign someone better than him it's a no brainier he has to stay. It's sad to say but I think some people will only realise how good he was when he actually leaves the city.
I would love to know the % of times when he goes missing in games? I don't argue he has been a great servant to the club but come on we know there have been times when games have passed him by on a regular basis.
Also he always seems to have these golden periods when his contract is up for renewal? That's why if he is given a new one now I would like to see it heavily incentivised so has a reason to deliver his best every game rather than take a few games off like he has done so many times before.
Whilst others in the squad will get paid much more than him for sitting in the stands. What an incentive!!!
It is common practise to insert incentives into contracts of players over 30's of age. For example Lambert has to play a certain number of games to trigger a second year.
Really don't see what the problem is?????
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:10 pm
wez1927 wrote:polo wrote:wez1927 wrote:polo wrote:dogfound wrote:wez1927 wrote:Brilliant buy he is a club legend but it is time to upgrade now he's coming to his end of his usefulNess for a first team starter, people use statistics alot to big him up but the fact is without him we win more games and that's down to his lack of pace and defensive ability without the ball
it would be interesting if the sample was bigger and not just shoe horned to make a point.
eg. Brian Murphy 2 games 1 win 50% does that also make it obvious to you that we win more with him than Marshall.
i think the real stat is 59 games for 3 different managers
Also, the stats are flawed. Surely the stat should be starting and not starting?
He started as a sub against Newcastle, come on when we were 2 down and got us back in the game but according to this little set of stats and Wez we lost that game because Whitts was involved.
Your the one using stats all the time especially about assists in last week's thread
No disguise needed Wez my support of PW7 is common knowledge.
You meanwhile seem to think the next Steven Gerrard is playing in the lower leagues somewhere and we can snap him up for 350k
Players have to come from somewhere why not ?
For once I agree we should be doing more to find talent in the lower leagues, I remember a time when we were quite good at it.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:20 pm
An absolute yes from me. He may have given us the best supporting moments in 40 years of following the city but it's not about sentiment, he still has more talent than anyone around him, even if his grafting levels are sometimes lacking. The only irritation I have with him is this bollocks about him not practicing. His set piece delivery isn't as consistent as it was and even if it was surely practice would improve it or at least help maintain it.
Re: The great Peter Whittingham debate!
Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:42 pm
Our top scorer this season ain't he? Let's leave that there.