' The truth behind our crowds '

I posted this the other day in response to some of the furore surrounding the crowd against Brentford. I then thought I would look up some stats to back myself up and so I did. I'll post that in the next post to split it up a bit.

I think it's relative.

When we went on a run in the old fourth division under Rick Wright we had been in the doldrums for so long that the crowds were massive for us at the same time. Same again when we smashed the title. Huge following home and away. Then we went up crowds were good for a bit then receded as we started to lose more in a higher division. We went back down and even when we were back in the playoffs (when we lost to Northampton) the crowds weren't as big as that first run of success under Rick Wright.

This followed when Frank Burrows took us up. The crowds were higher but still not 17k like Rick Wright run Cardiff had. We then went back up and down again and the crowds never reached the peak they had done.

Finally returning to the dungeon apart from a few cup matches the crowds were quite low. People were used to relative success so anything less didn't pull them in.

Finally Sam took us over. Crowds increased steadily as money was spent and progress was made. We went up and made a decent fist of it. However we lost to Stoke in the play offs and the following season didn't start greatly so again the crowds went down. That season we went up via the playoffs to huge amounts of Cardiff fans at the Mill Stad. The following season, our first for ages in the second tier again saw big crowds. Expensive signings saw interest increase massively. But, as success didn't come straight away interest again diminished until Black Friday and crowds lower even than we had in the dungeon.

Racing to the top of the league under Dave Jones playing great football saw Ninian park sold out regularly. But, as the season limped to its conclusion tickets were far easier to come by. A relative quiet period of consolidation in the championship would have meant average crowds had it not been for the FA Cup Final raising our profile and enabling us to sell loads of season tickets. More trips to Wembley enabled artificially high numbers of season tickets sold in our new stadium until Tan and Malky took the now Red kitted Cardiff City to the championship title and big crowds in the CCS. This continued in the premiership where huge clubs visiting meant season tickets were sold out and sell outs every week.

The bubble was bound to burst and without a cup final or premiership football to sell season tickets for we reverted to type and the sellouts finished.

As shown in the past success is relative. Years back 7th in the championship would have meant big crowds but we have been higher so it's now a bit boring. It's not just us it's the same at most clubs. Can't get a ticket for love nor money to Leicester but last time they were in the Premiership under O Neill they hardly ever sold out.

It's the way of the world. Success will bring the fans back it will just take longer to catch on.

agree with a lot of that

Good post

These are our average attendances and league positions over the last 20 odd years. It is based on current names so dungeon is called league 2. I have put a possible mitigating factor for large (or low) attendance in last column.

I hope this shows that Cardiff have had crowds up during success and down when not so successful for years so this season's low crowds are to be expected and nothing to do with Tan, Slade or Dai Hunt.

Year- Level & Position- Average Attendance- Historical significance
2014/15 Championship (11th) 21,124 Season tickets sold from previous year
2013/14 Premiership (20th) 27,430 First year in top tier in ages
2012/13 Championship (1st) 22,299 Season tickets sold from League cup final + success
2011/12 Championship (6th) 22,100 Large number of 'Golden' season tickets sold year before
2010/11 Championship (4th) 23.194 Bellamy + top of table most of year + play off final year before
2009/10 Championship (4th) 20,717 First season new stadium
2008/09 Championship (7th) 18,000 Last season Ninian, FA Cup Final so season ticket sales high
2007/08 Championship (12th) 13,939 Nothing season low crowds
2006/07 Championship (13th) 15,223 Top of table after 12 games so 20k crowds dropping to 12k
2005/06 Championship (11th) 11,720 Mid table nothing happening crowds sub 10k regularly
2004/05 Championship (16th) 12,976 Sam's dream started to implode. Black Friday etc.
2003/04 Championship (13th) 15,569 First year in Championship
2002/03 League 1 (6th) 13,050 Promoted via playoffs. Money spent on players + Success
2001/02 League 1 (4th) 12,253 Back in League 1 + success
2000/01 League 2 (2nd) 7,962 First year of Sam. Money spent on players + success
1999/00 League 1 (21st) 6,895 Back in League 1 but relegated. Crowds started 10k +
1998/99 League 2 (3rd) 7,131 Frank Burrows takes us up. Success.
1997/98 League 2 (21st) 3,610 Dungeon performing badly. 20k say they went actually 3k
1996/97 League 2 (7th) 3,594 Relative success but still crowds low.
1995/96 League 2 (22nd) 3,420 Hangover from relegation year before.
1994/95 League 1 (22nd) 4,543 Sat lower league most of year, inevitable relegation.
1993/94 League 1 (19th) 6,072 Spike in crowds from promotion plus Cup Run boosted league crowds.
1992/93 League 2 (1st) 8,560 Eddie May's barmy army. Money spent + success under RW.
1991/92 League 2 (9th) 6,191 First bit of relative success in ages boosted crowds. Lots of children got into the City (including me). Large crowds back end of season.

Any question, comments or concerns please feel free to add.

One point I will make from looking at the stats is that Sam woke us up. No matter what you say we were heading nowhere without the big little Lebanese fella.

Neil do you have the attendances for the 80s?

Neil do you have the attendances for the 80s?

http://www.european-football-statistics ... b/carc.htm

80s pretty poor including averages of 4,363, 7,067 and 5,574 in what is now the Championship.

One point I will make from looking at the stats is that Sam woke us up. No matter what you say we were heading nowhere without the big little Lebanese fella.

Great thread and post above, Neil

Sam undoubtedly 'stirred the beast' and we are/should be eternally grateful and that is why it is so sad that it has ended up the way it has (with him)

He is a larger than life character and as a 'motivational force' for supporters he leaves others in his wake!

City crowds are notoriously fickle and your research has borne that out. Success will, indeed, be the major factor in bringing the departed fans back to the CCS and probably always will be

One point I will make from looking at the stats is that Sam woke us up. No matter what you say we were heading nowhere without the big little Lebanese fella.

Great thread and post above, Neil

Sam undoubtedly 'stirred the beast' and we are/should be eternally grateful and that is why it is so sad that it has ended up the way it has (with him)

He is a larger than life character and as a 'motivational force' for supporters he leaves others in his wake!

City crowds are notoriously fickle and your research has borne that out. Success will, indeed, be the major factor in bringing the departed fans back to the CCS and probably always will be

Cheers, means a lot coming from you.

Neil, Quite a good post but its your opinion, you can't say its the truth?

There are many many reasons and fans have stopped through their beliefs/opinions and many due to being Glory Hunters

I posted this the other day in response to some of the furore surrounding the crowd against Brentford. I then thought I would look up some stats to back myself up and so I did. I'll post that in the next post to split it up a bit.

I think it's relative.

When we went on a run in the old fourth division under Rick Wright we had been in the doldrums for so long that the crowds were massive for us at the same time. Same again when we smashed the title. Huge following home and away. Then we went up crowds were good for a bit then receded as we started to lose more in a higher division. We went back down and even when we were back in the playoffs (when we lost to Northampton) the crowds weren't as big as that first run of success under Rick Wright.

This followed when Frank Burrows took us up. The crowds were higher but still not 17k like Rick Wright run Cardiff had. We then went back up and down again and the crowds never reached the peak they had done.

Finally returning to the dungeon apart from a few cup matches the crowds were quite low. People were used to relative success so anything less didn't pull them in.

Finally Sam took us over. Crowds increased steadily as money was spent and progress was made. We went up and made a decent fist of it. However we lost to Stoke in the play offs and the following season didn't start greatly so again the crowds went down. That season we went up via the playoffs to huge amounts of Cardiff fans at the Mill Stad. The following season, our first for ages in the second tier again saw big crowds. Expensive signings saw interest increase massively. But, as success didn't come straight away interest again diminished until Black Friday and crowds lower even than we had in the dungeon.

Racing to the top of the league under Dave Jones playing great football saw Ninian park sold out regularly. But, as the season limped to its conclusion tickets were far easier to come by. A relative quiet period of consolidation in the championship would have meant average crowds had it not been for the FA Cup Final raising our profile and enabling us to sell loads of season tickets. More trips to Wembley enabled artificially high numbers of season tickets sold in our new stadium until Tan and Malky took the now Red kitted Cardiff City to the championship title and big crowds in the CCS. This continued in the premiership where huge clubs visiting meant season tickets were sold out and sell outs every week.

The bubble was bound to burst and without a cup final or premiership football to sell season tickets for we reverted to type and the sellouts finished.

As shown in the past success is relative. Years back 7th in the championship would have meant big crowds but we have been higher so it's now a bit boring. It's not just us it's the same at most clubs. Can't get a ticket for love nor money to Leicester but last time they were in the Premiership under O Neill they hardly ever sold out.

It's the way of the world. Success will bring the fans back it will just take longer to catch on.

There are a multitude of reasons why crowds have fallen.

Supporters having a go at one another, again for a multitude of reasons has seen many leave.

It's a sad state to see fan against fan for whatever.

Most of the problems from the Club have caused it, which is even worse

Neil, Quite a good post but its your opinion, you can't say its the truth?

There are many many reasons and fans have stopped through their beliefs/opinions and many due to being Glory Hunters

It is a stats based post Annis so of course I can say it's the truth as far as the numbers go. The rest is my opinion however I have stats to prove that it always happens to us after a certain time at a certain level.

Those that stopped because of Tan stopped at the time we changed. Those that carried on and then stopped coming after we were relegated are simply using him as an excuse.

Those that don't come because of Slade are also using that as an excuse.

I'm pointing out that lack of success results in lower crowds. That is FACT backed up by my stats.

I think when is see posts or hear people talking about the crowds, none of them mention the obvious.

5 years ago, in order to starve off the tax man, the Riddler introduced the 5 year price freeze, this made attending games season after season affordable for the family man.

That and the chaos caused by the new management has rightly caused 1000s to stay away.

Neil do you have the attendances for the 80s?

http://www.european-football-statistics ... b/carc.htm

80s pretty poor including averages of 4,363, 7,067 and 5,574 in what is now the Championship.

First started watching in 71 with average crowds of 21,000. We hit 50,000 twice with visits from Real Madrid and Leeds.

I migrated in 87 with crowds down to 2,000 and no roof on the Grange End. I have always believe our crowds would come back under the right owner. Still waiting for that person.

Neil, Quite a good post but its your opinion, you can't say its the truth?

There are many many reasons and fans have stopped through their beliefs/opinions and many due to being Glory Hunters

It is a stats based post Annis so of course I can say it's the truth as far as the numbers go. The rest is my opinion however I have stats to prove that it always happens to us after a certain time at a certain level.

Those that stopped because of Tan stopped at the time we changed. Those that carried on and then stopped coming after we were relegated are simply using him as an excuse.

Those that don't come because of Slade are also using that as an excuse.

I'm pointing out that lack of success results in lower crowds. That is FACT backed up by my stats.

Neil, I agree with you, I don't buy it,those that say they are staying away because of Slade.

As to Tan, I do know many including David Sugarman aka TLG have stopped through Tans rebrand and his circus, I even thought about it, but I was not going to let a Dictator run me out of the club I have supported since a child, I respect those that stopped though.

Neil do you have the attendances for the 80s?

http://www.european-football-statistics ... b/carc.htm

80s pretty poor including averages of 4,363, 7,067 and 5,574 in what is now the Championship.

First started watching in 71 with average crowds of 21,000. We hit 50,000 twice with visits from Real Madrid and Leeds.

I migrated in 87 with crowds down to 2,000 and no roof on the Grange End. I have always believe our crowds would come back under the right owner. Still waiting for that person.

Ian I really think that if Sam had got us up into the Premiership and we settled it could have been really good. Sadly we will never find that out. I think his plan was based on getting us up like he did with Wimbledon.

The stats I collated are league games only.

Neil do you have the attendances for the 80s?

http://www.european-football-statistics ... b/carc.htm

80s pretty poor including averages of 4,363, 7,067 and 5,574 in what is now the Championship.

First started watching in 71 with average crowds of 21,000. We hit 50,000 twice with visits from Real Madrid and Leeds.

I migrated in 87 with crowds down to 2,000 and no roof on the Grange End. I have always believe our crowds would come back under the right owner. Still waiting for that person.

Ian I really think that if Sam had got us up into the Premiership and we settled it could have been really good. Sadly we will never find that out. I think his plan was based on getting us up like he did with Wimbledon.

One point I will make from looking at the stats is that Sam woke us up. No matter what you say we were heading nowhere without the big little Lebanese fella.

Great thread and post above, Neil

Sam undoubtedly 'stirred the beast' and we are/should be eternally grateful and that is why it is so sad that it has ended up the way it has (with him)

He is a larger than life character and as a 'motivational force' for supporters he leaves others in his wake!

City crowds are notoriously fickle and your research has borne that out. Success will, indeed, be the major factor in bringing the departed fans back to the CCS and probably always will be

Cheers, means a lot coming from you.

LOL Despite rumours to the contrary, I'm not really an Ogre, Neil

I just prefer to take every topic on its own merits rather than having a 'set-in-stone' view that quite a few have on here and it's never personal (with anyone) as few of us truly know each other well (if at all)

To be honest, whenever I have met other members this great Forum they have been (in the main) pretty genuine people and bloody good supporters of Cardiff City FC

I have said plenty of times on here that we have'nt lost any supporters. We are getting what we always have apart from those few years from 2009 on. If we can mount a serious promotion push we will get some of the casual fans back, but if we slip down the table we will stay at the current levels as only the true supporters will be there every week. We may have lost a few genuine fans due to costs etc. but in the main the several thousand missing fans will only come back to see a winning side. As an average second tier team, anywhere between ten and fifteen thousasnd has always been par for the course for this club. Plenty of other clubs go through exactly the same as us depending on success.

One point I will make from looking at the stats is that Sam woke us up. No matter what you say we were heading nowhere without the big little Lebanese fella.

SPOT ON Neil

These are our average attendances and league positions over the last 20 odd years. It is based on current names so dungeon is called league 2. I have put a possible mitigating factor for large (or low) attendance in last column.

I hope this shows that Cardiff have had crowds up during success and down when not so successful for years so this season's low crowds are to be expected and nothing to do with Tan, Slade or Dai Hunt.

Year- Level & Position- Average Attendance- Historical significance
2014/15 Championship (11th) 21,124 Season tickets sold from previous year
2013/14 Premiership (20th) 27,430 First year in top tier in ages
2012/13 Championship (1st) 22,299 Season tickets sold from League cup final + success
2011/12 Championship (6th) 22,100 Large number of 'Golden' season tickets sold year before
2010/11 Championship (4th) 23.194 Bellamy + top of table most of year + play off final year before
2009/10 Championship (4th) 20,717 First season new stadium
2008/09 Championship (7th) 18,000 Last season Ninian, FA Cup Final so season ticket sales high
2007/08 Championship (12th) 13,939 Nothing season low crowds
2006/07 Championship (13th) 15,223 Top of table after 12 games so 20k crowds dropping to 12k
2005/06 Championship (11th) 11,720 Mid table nothing happening crowds sub 10k regularly
2004/05 Championship (16th) 12,976 Sam's dream started to implode. Black Friday etc.
2003/04 Championship (13th) 15,569 First year in Championship
2002/03 League 1 (6th) 13,050 Promoted via playoffs. Money spent on players + Success
2001/02 League 1 (4th) 12,253 Back in League 1 + success
2000/01 League 2 (2nd) 7,962 First year of Sam. Money spent on players + success
1999/00 League 1 (21st) 6,895 Back in League 1 but relegated. Crowds started 10k +
1998/99 League 2 (3rd) 7,131 Frank Burrows takes us up. Success.
1997/98 League 2 (21st) 3,610 Dungeon performing badly. 20k say they went actually 3k
1996/97 League 2 (7th) 3,594 Relative success but still crowds low.
1995/96 League 2 (22nd) 3,420 Hangover from relegation year before.
1994/95 League 1 (22nd) 4,543 Sat lower league most of year, inevitable relegation.
1993/94 League 1 (19th) 6,072 Spike in crowds from promotion plus Cup Run boosted league crowds.
1992/93 League 2 (1st) 8,560 Eddie May's barmy army. Money spent + success under RW.
1991/92 League 2 (9th) 6,191 First bit of relative success in ages boosted crowds. Lots of children got into the City (including me). Large crowds back end of season.

Any question, comments or concerns please feel free to add.

Cheers Neil, I enjoy facts like these on our crowds etc

spot on---success breeds success and there have been to many false dawns at Cardiff city.

The fact is in the Premiership you have fans of Premier League teams also turning up to see their team on the cheap in their local area, and you also get more football day trippers who want to see star players, take photos from the stands and so on. With all due respect, there are very few neutral tourists who enjoy football who want to go and watch Cardiff vs Brentford or that level of football. They love the likes of Coutinho, Aguero, Ozil, Hazard, Rooney and other star names. These fans artificially inflate attendances in their thousands. Its a complete myth that Cardiff got thousands of more fans when they got promoted. There is a difference between an attendee and a fan.

The fact is in the Premiership you have fans of Premier League teams also turning up to see their team on the cheap in their local area, and you also get more football day trippers who want to see star players, take photos from the stands and so on. With all due respect, there are very few neutral tourists who enjoy football who want to go and watch Cardiff vs Brentford or that level of football. They love the likes of Coutinho, Aguero, Ozil, Hazard, Rooney and other star names. These fans artificially inflate attendances in their thousands. Its a complete myth that Cardiff got thousands of more fans when they got promoted. There is a difference between an attendee and a fan.

Most sensible post you have ever made

A lot of glory hunters arrived in the 90's and 2000's, their your problem.
Now compared to our history we're not in a slump, we're probably at our level but to the glory hunters it's the end of the world for some reason.
I say to them take a step back and look who we are, we're not a major force in football.

Neil, Quite a good post but its your opinion, you can't say its the truth?

There are many many reasons and fans have stopped through their beliefs/opinions and many due to being Glory Hunters

The numbers speak for themselves so it's not an opinion

The last season in the championship that meant relatively nothing average crowd was just over 13000

Sounds very similar to this season does it not?

All other seasons in between that have had some form of success or selling point to boost season ticket numbers that's also a fact (golden ticket scam from the riddler being the biggest selling point, fa cup final league cup final and finally promotion)

I'm not saying crowds wouldn't be a little higher now had tan not gone with the red but based on most of those averages I doubt we'd have averaged much more than 15k anyway this season (this bit is an opinion)

One point I will make from looking at the stats is that Sam woke us up. No matter what you say we were heading nowhere without the big little Lebanese fella.

Sam definitely woke us up. Even though he left on a bad note, he definitely got everyone interested and pumped the fans up. Wish things had worked out differently.

One point I will make from looking at the stats is that Sam woke us up. No matter what you say we were heading nowhere without the big little Lebanese fella.

Sam definitely woke us up. Even though he left on a bad note, he definitely got everyone interested and pumped the fans up. Wish things had worked out differently.

I think he chucked everything into getting us in the Prem.

Two years old but still relevant.

Yup we've been 'spoilt' in the last 7 years, cup runs and play offs etc. It's not new anymore.