FAO Lawnmower - those old accounts (CCFC)

Tim

Have started this as a new topic simply so it doesn`t get lost in the previous large thread.

I have now seen those May 2010 accounts which were made up to a date just a few months before TG and VT got involved with the club (the first loans from Erskine and Edgedale were in July and Sept 2010 and the first loans from VT and TG were in July and August 2010.
So those 2010 accounts effectively show the club`s financial position when they took over and subsequent accounts show how the club`s financial position has changed since then in the 4 years up until May 2014 which are the latest accounts filed.

As at 31 May 2010 , VT inherited a position where the club had assets of £59m (mainly the stadium at £50m as the playing squad were only valued at £4m) and total liabilities of £63m to give a net overall deficit of £4m.
Of the total liabilities of £63m , £27m was due to be repaid by the following year (£9m to PMG, £3M in transfer fees , £6m to suppliers , £2m to HMRC, and others - including season ticket sales received in advance - of £7M).
Creditors of £37m not due to be paid for more than 12 months later mainly related to Langston loan notes of £18m and the (nominal because would never cost the club anything) stadium naming rights of £9m). Also in this category were debts due to Player Finance Fund of £3.5m (thank you Peter Ridsdale for setting up this "Wonga" type loan!)


Compared to the net deficit of £4m as at 31 May 2010 , the net debt had soared to £66m by 31 May 2014.
Assets were up by £31m to £90m (inc. stadium £53m and playing squad £25m).
Liabilities were up £93m to £156m , of which the vast majority (£152m) was payable by 31 May 2015, so the net deficit had gone up to £66m . Of the £152m , approx. £138 m was due to VT and Torman Finance (in which Mehmet Dalman has an interest).

The above represents a worsening of the club`s financial position of approx. £62m during the first 4 years of VT`s control. I am not saying that is all his fault , just stating the facts. The club lost just under £1m in the year before he became involved , £12m in 2011 , £13m in 2012 , £30m in 2013 and another £12m in 2014.

One thing that is noted in the latest accounts is that all interest that had previously been accrued in the accounts in respect of the VT loans up to 31 May 2014 was waived in September 2013 .

In summary , the club was worse off financially at the end of May 2014 than it was 4 years earlier by about £62m and a far higher proportion of its debt is due now rather than over a longer period of time.



And breathe.............

Keith

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

Also funny how many of those who hate Tan still lick Malky's arse especially as he spent a huge percentage of that money. If you take away the Cornelius transfer of 10 million outlay it looks a bit better.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

Also funny how many of those who hate Tan still lick Malky's arse especially as he spent a huge percentage of that money. If you take away the Cornelius transfer of 10 million outlay it looks a bit better.

Neil, Thats down to bad management from Tan/CEO's they all should of not let a manager have an open pot with no limits.
Guess what they never learnt their lesson did they,Ole come to mind? But what did he achieve?

Have you also forgot the money Malky brought in from getting promotion? we are still receiving millions upon millions thanks to Malky every season.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

About £1m of the losses were down to interest on deals that PR put in place. None of them were down to season tickets sold in advance , as the accounts reflect cash received for the following season in advance every year.

We were not losing a £m a month before VT took over (see my figures above). That level of losses , and higher , only happened after the takeover. He did steady the finances initially with the money he put in (about £6m fixed that) , but spending has been reckless since in many cases up until the most recent months when a more sensible approach has been taken.

We were insolvent without Tan`s money - to an extent of about £4m as noted in my post. We are still insolvent , but by May 2014 the deficit had risen to £66m.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

The Premier League money was a great opportunity to start getting the club`s finances back on an even keel as its income went up from £17m in 2012/13 to £83m in 2013/14. But all of that extra income was wasted on bad player transfers and wages (all signed off by the board) plus other wastes such as £12m on a stand extension not needed then and not used now.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

The Premier League money was a great opportunity to start getting the club`s finances back on an even keel as its income went up from £17m in 2012/13 to £83m in 2013/14. But all of that extra income was wasted on bad player transfers and wages (all signed off by the board) plus other wastes such as £12m on a stand extension not needed then and not used now.

How not needed? We were selling out every home game. If we stayed in the Prem would have needed extra capacity.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

Also funny how many of those who hate Tan still lick Malky's arse especially as he spent a huge percentage of that money. If you take away the Cornelius transfer of 10 million outlay it looks a bit better.

Neil, Thats down to bad management from Tan/CEO's they all should of not let a manager have an open pot with no limits.
Guess what they never learnt their lesson did they,Ole come to mind? But what did he achieve?

Have you also forgot the money Malky brought in from getting promotion? we are still receiving millions upon millions thanks to Malky every season.

That's fair enough Annis but you can't give Malky all the credit and not Tan any. Who knows what would have happened had Tan not taken us over and led us to the Premiership as he promised with the rebrand.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

About £1m of the losses were down to interest on deals that PR put in place. None of them were down to season tickets sold in advance , as the accounts reflect cash received for the following season in advance every year.

We were not losing a £m a month before VT took over (see my figures above). That level of losses , and higher , only happened after the takeover. He did steady the finances initially with the money he put in (about £6m fixed that) , but spending has been reckless since in many cases up until the most recent months when a more sensible approach has been taken.

We were insolvent without Tan`s money - to an extent of about £4m as noted in my post. We are still insolvent , but by May 2014 the deficit had risen to £66m.

In January before Tan took us over didn't Ridsdale sell season tickets for the following season?

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

The Premier League money was a great opportunity to start getting the club`s finances back on an even keel as its income went up from £17m in 2012/13 to £83m in 2013/14. But all of that extra income was wasted on bad player transfers and wages (all signed off by the board) plus other wastes such as £12m on a stand extension not needed then and not used now.

How not needed? We were selling out every home game. If we stayed in the Prem would have needed extra capacity.

Even if totally full every game, it would have taken a minimum of 5 seasons for the cost of the stand extension to have been recovered. And there is no evidence to suggest it would have been full every week. The ground before the extension was built wasn`t full every week in the Premier League.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

About £1m of the losses were down to interest on deals that PR put in place. None of them were down to season tickets sold in advance , as the accounts reflect cash received for the following season in advance every year.

We were not losing a £m a month before VT took over (see my figures above). That level of losses , and higher , only happened after the takeover. He did steady the finances initially with the money he put in (about £6m fixed that) , but spending has been reckless since in many cases up until the most recent months when a more sensible approach has been taken.

We were insolvent without Tan`s money - to an extent of about £4m as noted in my post. We are still insolvent , but by May 2014 the deficit had risen to £66m.

In January before Tan took us over didn't Ridsdale sell season tickets for the following season?

Yes , but that happened most seasons before and every season since. As long as season tickets are sold before the end of May , the cash will appear in that May`s accounts but there will be a creditor for the fact that the money relates to the following season , not the one in which the cash was received. Every football club does it.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

About £1m of the losses were down to interest on deals that PR put in place. None of them were down to season tickets sold in advance , as the accounts reflect cash received for the following season in advance every year.

We were not losing a £m a month before VT took over (see my figures above). That level of losses , and higher , only happened after the takeover. He did steady the finances initially with the money he put in (about £6m fixed that) , but spending has been reckless since in many cases up until the most recent months when a more sensible approach has been taken.

We were insolvent without Tan`s money - to an extent of about £4m as noted in my post. We are still insolvent , but by May 2014 the deficit had risen to £66m.

In January before Tan took us over didn't Ridsdale sell season tickets for the following season?

Yes , but that happened most seasons before and every season since. As long as season tickets are sold before the end of May , the cash will appear in that May`s accounts but there will be a creditor for the fact that the money relates to the following season , not the one in which the cash was received. Every football club does it.

But Riddler was using that money to pay debts that we had there and then so it couldn't be drawn on the following year as it was gone already.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

The Premier League money was a great opportunity to start getting the club`s finances back on an even keel as its income went up from £17m in 2012/13 to £83m in 2013/14. But all of that extra income was wasted on bad player transfers and wages (all signed off by the board) plus other wastes such as £12m on a stand extension not needed then and not used now.

How not needed? We were selling out every home game. If we stayed in the Prem would have needed extra capacity.

Even if totally full every game, it would have taken a minimum of 5 seasons for the cost of the stand extension to have been recovered. And there is no evidence to suggest it would have been full every week. The ground before the extension was built wasn`t full every week in the Premier League.

Took a punt. Has enabled Wales to have bigger crowds and got a European super cup to the stadium. If he didn't do it would be accused of lacking ambition. Surely it has added to the value of the stadium ergo good on the balance sheet?

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

Also funny how many of those who hate Tan still lick Malky's arse especially as he spent a huge percentage of that money. If you take away the Cornelius transfer of 10 million outlay it looks a bit better.

Neil, Thats down to bad management from Tan/CEO's they all should of not let a manager have an open pot with no limits.
Guess what they never learnt their lesson did they,Ole come to mind? But what did he achieve?

Have you also forgot the money Malky brought in from getting promotion? we are still receiving millions upon millions thanks to Malky every season.

That's fair enough Annis but you can't give Malky all the credit and not Tan any. Who knows what would have happened had Tan not taken us over and led us to the Premiership as he promised with the rebrand.

Neil,

If Tan had not taken our identity away and divided our club I would not be against him at all
Plus if he had made us debt free as promised he would be the fans hero

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

Also funny how many of those who hate Tan still lick Malky's arse especially as he spent a huge percentage of that money. If you take away the Cornelius transfer of 10 million outlay it looks a bit better.

Neil, Thats down to bad management from Tan/CEO's they all should of not let a manager have an open pot with no limits.
Guess what they never learnt their lesson did they,Ole come to mind? But what did he achieve?

Have you also forgot the money Malky brought in from getting promotion? we are still receiving millions upon millions thanks to Malky every season.

That's fair enough Annis but you can't give Malky all the credit and not Tan any. Who knows what would have happened had Tan not taken us over and led us to the Premiership as he promised with the rebrand.

Neil,

If Tan had not taken our identity away and divided our club I would not be against him at all
Plus if he had made us debt free as promised he would be the fans hero

There comes a time when everyone needs to move on ,New badge back in blue but still people moaning ,maybe enough is enough get behind the club ,us Cardiff fans always seem to be infighting and that is not down to tan it's happened under every owner/chairman

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

Also funny how many of those who hate Tan still lick Malky's arse especially as he spent a huge percentage of that money. If you take away the Cornelius transfer of 10 million outlay it looks a bit better.

Neil, Thats down to bad management from Tan/CEO's they all should of not let a manager have an open pot with no limits.
Guess what they never learnt their lesson did they,Ole come to mind? But what did he achieve?

Have you also forgot the money Malky brought in from getting promotion? we are still receiving millions upon millions thanks to Malky every season.

That's fair enough Annis but you can't give Malky all the credit and not Tan any. Who knows what would have happened had Tan not taken us over and led us to the Premiership as he promised with the rebrand.

its hypocracy at its best ! swoon over one man but condem the man who gave him the means to achieve what he did!
says it al really

More debt maybe but financially worse off? Surely not.

I'd rather have a bigger debt to someone who can afford it than a smaller debt to someone begging and borrowing every income stream.

Looks like Tan is making cut backs now and rightly so.

More debt maybe but financially worse off? Surely not.

I'd rather have a bigger debt to someone who can afford it than a smaller debt to someone begging and borrowing every income stream.

Looks like Tan is making cut backs now and rightly so.

Exactly.

This argument has to be put into perspective. Yes an accountant can point to a piece of paper and say we are worse off by £62m etc. etc. etc.

But the vast majority of that money is owed to Tan and the rest to the Chairman. It's simply not in their interest to pull the plug on the club and as a result we are far better off now than we were under the beg steal or borrow days of Peter Ridsdale.

Cheers Keith.

One thing which is worth pointing out is that he had ( if I've got my timings right) just reduced that net debt to £4m by ploughing a big chunk into shares, again I haven't got time to check, but I think it was £6m from him and £3m + from others, so in fairness it was partly down to Tan that we were in a healthier position, also we were in all reality insolvent without him as we couldn't pay HMRC etc... The debts are bigger now, but at least we are paying our external creditors.

Also as for the stand, it's a long term investment, it's already made us some money and allowed us as fans to see the worlds best footballers at our ground. We also had a grant for it.
If we'd stayed up it could have made us £2m + in ticket sales and another million in corporate- it still can if we can do it.

If we want to be a big club we need the facilities- I could name at least one club who wish they had extended their ground when they went up and would have paid for it by now- hindsight eh ?

Cheers Keith.

One thing which is worth pointing out is that he had ( if I've got my timings right) just reduced that net debt to £4m by ploughing a big chunk into shares, again I haven't got time to check, but I think it was £6m from him and £3m + from others, so in fairness it was partly down to Tan that we were in a healthier position, also we were in all reality insolvent without him as we couldn't pay HMRC etc... The debts are bigger now, but at least we are paying our external creditors.

Also as for the stand, it's a long term investment, it's already made us some money and allowed us as fans to see the worlds best footballers at our ground. We also had a grant for it.
If we'd stayed up it could have made us £2m + in ticket sales and another million in corporate- it still can if we can do it.

If we want to be a big club we need the facilities- I could name at least one club who wish they had extended their ground when they went up and would have paid for it by now- hindsight eh ?

More debt maybe but financially worse off? Surely not.

I'd rather have a bigger debt to someone who can afford it than a smaller debt to someone begging and borrowing every income stream.

Looks like Tan is making cut backs now and rightly so.

Exactly.

This argument has to be put into perspective. Yes an accountant can point to a piece of paper and say we are worse off by £62m etc. etc. etc.

But the vast majority of that money is owed to Tan and the rest to the Chairman. It's simply not in their interest to pull the plug on the club and as a result we are far better off now than we were under the beg steal or borrow days of Peter Ridsdale.

shhhh dont tell everyone we are better off as they wont believe you and be funny farm for you! but seriously i know what position i would prefer to be in and its not pre tan thats for sure!

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

About £1m of the losses were down to interest on deals that PR put in place. None of them were down to season tickets sold in advance , as the accounts reflect cash received for the following season in advance every year.

We were not losing a £m a month before VT took over (see my figures above). That level of losses , and higher , only happened after the takeover. He did steady the finances initially with the money he put in (about £6m fixed that) , but spending has been reckless since in many cases up until the most recent months when a more sensible approach has been taken.

We were insolvent without Tan`s money - to an extent of about £4m as noted in my post. We are still insolvent , but by May 2014 the deficit had risen to £66m.

In January before Tan took us over didn't Ridsdale sell season tickets for the following season?

Yes , but that happened most seasons before and every season since. As long as season tickets are sold before the end of May , the cash will appear in that May`s accounts but there will be a creditor for the fact that the money relates to the following season , not the one in which the cash was received. Every football club does it.

But Riddler was using that money to pay debts that we had there and then so it couldn't be drawn on the following year as it was gone already.[/quote

As was the case for the use of the money in the other seasons I referred to in my post.There was no difference in what the money was used for in the Ridsdale era either before or after his time.The fact that he told fans it was a transfer fund was a lie but it's actual use was the norm for CCFC and indeed is the norm for most other clubs.

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

The Premier League money was a great opportunity to start getting the club`s finances back on an even keel as its income went up from £17m in 2012/13 to £83m in 2013/14. But all of that extra income was wasted on bad player transfers and wages (all signed off by the board) plus other wastes such as £12m on a stand extension not needed then and not used now.

How not needed? We were selling out every home game. If we stayed in the Prem would have needed extra capacity.

Even if totally full every game, it would have taken a minimum of 5 seasons for the cost of the stand extension to have been recovered. And there is no evidence to suggest it would have been full every week. The ground before the extension was built wasn`t full every week in the Premier League.

Took a punt. Has enabled Wales to have bigger crowds and got a European super cup to the stadium. If he didn't do it would be accused of lacking ambition. Surely it has added to the value of the stadium ergo good on the balance sheet?

It was a punt of sorts but was mainly a "vanity project"- the words of the Chairman not mine- on the part of the owner.

It has enabled Wales to have bigger crowds, but how does that benefit CCFC?

The European Super Cup was coming to the stadium anyway.The deal was done before the stand extension and was not reliant upon it. That is direct from the man who got the deal signed. Also it has not added to the value of the stadium in the balance sheet. Half of the cost of £12m was written off in the books as an overvaluation even before the stand was opened ( see the 2014 accounts) and I believe most if not all of the rest was written off in the 2015 accounts ( we will only know when they are published)

Cheers Keith.

One thing which is worth pointing out is that he had ( if I've got my timings right) just reduced that net debt to £4m by ploughing a big chunk into shares, again I haven't got time to check, but I think it was £6m from him and £3m + from others, so in fairness it was partly down to Tan that we were in a healthier position, also we were in all reality insolvent without him as we couldn't pay HMRC etc... The debts are bigger now, but at least we are paying our external creditors.

Also as for the stand, it's a long term investment, it's already made us some money and allowed us as fans to see the worlds best footballers at our ground. We also had a grant for it.
If we'd stayed up it could have made us £2m + in ticket sales and another million in corporate- it still can if we can do it.

If we want to be a big club we need the facilities- I could name at least one club who wish they had extended their ground when they went up and would have paid for it by now- hindsight eh ?

Tim

I was also under the impression until recently that the club received a grant towards the cost of the extension from UEFA and that the Super Cup was dependent upon the extension being in place to take the ground capacity up. I happened to be at a lunch though where the man who actually signed off the deal categorically stated that neither is true.
I mentioned elsewhere that the club itself calculated that filling the extra seats for every game would still take 5 years plus to just cover the build costs.
Keith's

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

About £1m of the losses were down to interest on deals that PR put in place. None of them were down to season tickets sold in advance , as the accounts reflect cash received for the following season in advance every year.

We were not losing a £m a month before VT took over (see my figures above). That level of losses , and higher , only happened after the takeover. He did steady the finances initially with the money he put in (about £6m fixed that) , but spending has been reckless since in many cases up until the most recent months when a more sensible approach has been taken.

We were insolvent without Tan`s money - to an extent of about £4m as noted in my post. We are still insolvent , but by May 2014 the deficit had risen to £66m.

In January before Tan took us over didn't Ridsdale sell season tickets for the following season?

Yes , but that happened most seasons before and every season since. As long as season tickets are sold before the end of May , the cash will appear in that May`s accounts but there will be a creditor for the fact that the money relates to the following season , not the one in which the cash was received. Every football club does it.

But Riddler was using that money to pay debts that we had there and then so it couldn't be drawn on the following year as it was gone already.[/quote

As was the case for the use of the money in the other seasons I referred to in my post.There was no difference in what the money was used for in the Ridsdale era either before or after his time.The fact that he told fans it was a transfer fund was a lie but it's actual use was the norm for CCFC and indeed is the norm for most other clubs.

The season ticket money Riddler got was earlier than normal and meant we had a shortfall the season after. Thankfully Tan came in.

I thought the main issue was that all of the income streams lie catering and the retail park had been sold off or mortgaged so day to day costs would have gone unfunded from that point onwards.

We were losing 1 million a month in the first two years they took over and that was well before we went nuts on wages or transfer fees.

So we were technically insolvent before Tan and technically insolvent now....

A bit like arguing over what's worse jumping off a 20 story building or an 80 storey building......

More debt maybe but financially worse off? Surely not.

I'd rather have a bigger debt to someone who can afford it than a smaller debt to someone begging and borrowing every income stream.

Looks like Tan is making cut backs now and rightly so.

Firstly it is good that Ken Choo is now overseeing a sensible programme of cutbacks.

As for your point of the money now being due to someone who can afford it

1) a debt of £130m now represents almost 20% of VT total wealth which has fallen by over a quarter in the last year alone (according to the Forbes rich list). With other failing projects still being problematical it therefore is becoming less affordable.

2) the huge rise in the absolute level of net debt ( it has gone up 15 fold) is a big worry as it greatly reduces the chances of other potential investors regarding the club as a good investment.

3) Previous debts were both at a far lower level and were repayable over a number of years. As at 31 May 2014 virtually all of the clubs debt was either repayable on demand or within 12 months

But how much of that worsening of the finances was due to Ridsdale selling season tickets in advance or interest agreed by Ridsdale but payable by Tan after he took over.

Very interesting that Tan has waived interest Upto September 2013. Can anyone say if he takes a wage from the club?

We were losing a million a month (probably more) when Tan took over so it was a sinking ship that he steadied.

Finally, the fact remains we were insolvent without Tan's money so how anyone can say we were better off before him is talking nonsense.

l
interesting but doesn't tell whole story of premier costs, player costs and of course many millions wasted on wages ect ect but at least gives us insight of how things are roughly at this point.
but you are right without tan love or hate him we are not in good position

Also funny how many of those who hate Tan still lick Malky's arse especially as he spent a huge percentage of that money. If you take away the Cornelius transfer of 10 million outlay it looks a bit better.

Neil, Thats down to bad management from Tan/CEO's they all should of not let a manager have an open pot with no limits.
Guess what they never learnt their lesson did they,Ole come to mind? But what did he achieve?

Have you also forgot the money Malky brought in from getting promotion? we are still receiving millions upon millions thanks to Malky every season.

That's fair enough Annis but you can't give Malky all the credit and not Tan any. Who knows what would have happened had Tan not taken us over and led us to the Premiership as he promised with the rebrand.

Neil,

If Tan had not taken our identity away and divided our club I would not be against him at all
Plus if he had made us debt free as promised he would be the fans hero

There comes a time when everyone needs to move on ,New badge back in blue but still people moaning ,maybe enough is enough get behind the club ,us Cardiff fans always seem to be infighting and that is not down to tan it's happened under every owner/chairman

Im virtually there every week Wez, cheering the team on no matter what the result is and I have been for 43 years consecutive years.
You were not there to see how bad it was following City away during the rebrand and I can tell you now,its hurt a lot of fans deeply,so its easier said than done , by saying move on.
The Red Brigrade told us the same words move on, who cares about identity, well Im glad we never because we are BLUE again

I support City no matter what,I have a right to voice my opinion about Tan, No one tells me to move on

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