"THE IMMIGRATION DEBATE"

They can also claim Working Tax Credits for their sprogs back in Commieland

Yep, if they are UK tax payers they can.

Here lies a major problem. A "commie" comes here ot work and takes a low paid job. This means they get working tax credit and its a fair amount they get being on a low pay. That amount is sent back to commie land which usually turns out 4 times as much as what they would have got if they had stayed at home.

So we end up with a company paying less for labour and an employee getting alot more due to tax credit.

Baked I tried explaining this very problem to Sludge in the other debate but as usual he goes off into his wonderland and it is impossible to debate what is really happening rather than his happy fantasy land that doesn't exist.

I have done voluntary work at the CAB and seen umpteen cases like the one you have just described.

For example someone from the Czech Republic comes to the UK and works for a cleaning company on a 21 hour contract paid at the minimum wage. He can claim child benefit from the moment he arrives plus child/working tax credits, housing and council tax benefits after 3 months.

All they have to do is produce 'birth certificates' from their homeland (God knows how anyone knows if they are genuine) and normally there will be a minimum of 4 to 5 children.

The cash from working/child tax credits alone amounts to £14k P/A plus another £3k in child benefit which is a fortune when it is sent back to the Czech Republic.

But more importantly UK based workers are at a total disadvantage because if they take the same job they would easily lose the £14k in other benefits and be denied others like free school meals. By the time they pay rent/council tax then even a combined wage and tax credit benefits of £20k P/A is nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile working.

It is not a level playing field and is the MAIN reason why the last Government (& make no bones about it the new one also) won't do anything about immigration from the EU (before it’s said they can't they could have opted out for 7 years like Germany and France did) because employers like paying low wages.

The Government then spin our unemployed as scroungers and avoid the blame for a situation entirely created by them.

They can also claim Working Tax Credits for their sprogs back in Commieland

Yep, if they are UK tax payers they can.

Here lies a major problem. A "commie" comes here ot work and takes a low paid job. This means they get working tax credit and its a fair amount they get being on a low pay. That amount is sent back to commie land which usually turns out 4 times as much as what they would have got if they had stayed at home.

So we end up with a company paying less for labour and an employee getting alot more due to tax credit.

Baked I tried explaining this very problem to Sludge in the other debate but as usual he goes off into his wonderland and it is impossible to debate what is really happening rather than his happy fantasy land that doesn't exist.

I have done voluntary work at the CAB and seen umpteen cases like the one you have just described.

For example someone from the Czech Republic comes to the UK and works for a cleaning company on a 21 hour contract paid at the minimum wage. He can claim child benefit from the moment he arrives plus child/working tax credits, housing and council tax benefits after 3 months.

All they have to do is produce 'birth certificates' from their homeland (God knows how anyone knows if they are genuine) and normally there will be a minimum of 4 to 5 children.

The cash from working/child tax credits alone amounts to £14k P/A plus another £3k in child benefit which is a fortune when it is sent back to the Czech Republic.

But more importantly UK based workers are at a total disadvantage because if they take the same job they would easily lose the £14k in other benefits and be denied others like free school meals. By the time they pay rent/council tax then even a combined wage and tax credit benefits of £20k P/A is nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile working.

It is not a level playing field and is the MAIN reason why the last Government (& make no bones about it the new one also) won't do anything about immigration from the EU (before it’s said they can't they could have opted out for 7 years like Germany and France did) because employers like paying low wages.

The Government then spin our unemployed as scroungers and avoid the blame for a situation entirely created by them.

Tony it is such an absurd situation it amazes me nothing is done about it. It really makes you wonder if the Governements of today are bowing down to big businesses and makes you wonder who is pulling the strings.

tony well done for doing some voluntary work

but I was a welfare rights advice worker in bradford( full time ) , cardiff ( full time ) so with respect I am not basing my ideas on any sort of fantasy world

christ knows where you were going with that , but I will have to pull you up on that

Which seems to stir up so much banter/friendly arguments etc on here.

Well My point is I believe everyone is equal, but if we go to Spain/Germany etc they will look after their own country men first.

This is what gets me just 2 points out of many i have.

Today down at the Masons Pub in Marshfield I bumped in to some old friends(Married couple) of my fathers.

They are both in there early 70's and as usual I asked how they were, Sid said his wife had just had a hip replacement 5 months ago and that they had had to go private because The NHS had over an 8 month waiting list, and they were told the hospitals couldnt cope with the influx of new people registering from other countries.
Sids Wife had become so ill she could not walk anymore, so they spent All their Savings on the Hip operation £10,000.
Bang has gone their holiday money for their remaining years. Yet for 50 odd years they have worked and paid their Taxs, what do they get back.
The Good news is it went well and thats why they were able to be down there having an afternoon drink.

This year when My new baby daughter was rushed in to the heath as an emergency, I will never forget when my Wife stayed every night and on the first night at about 12pm asked for a pillow and was told they had none spare by the Nurse. An hour l later an Asian lady arrived with her baby and said to the nurse i am not sleeping by here without a pillow, the same nurse rushed and got her not 1 pillow but 2 pillows.

I am just telling 2 genuine stories about how bad this country has become.

Over to you Sludge these are facts not sun newspaper reports.

the nhs told your friends that they couldnt get help because they ( the nhs people ) said that they couldnt keep up with the demand from people from other countries ?

I doubt very much that people employed by the nhs would be telling patients this , they simply dont get involved in stuff like that , especially the consultants

are you sure ?

Tony it is such an absurd situation it amazes me nothing is done about it. It really makes you wonder if the Governements of today are bowing down to big businesses and makes you wonder who is pulling the strings.

Yes who is pulling the strings? But seriously Baked the argument the country needs immigration is totally based on what's best for employers who want to pay low wages and the disadvantaged from other countries, rather than what is best for the working class people in this country.

The WHOLE question of immigration should be debated properly including EU entries and the tried old excuse 'the country needs immigration' should be explained fully without an assumption it is a brilliant thing for everyone.

Which seems to stir up so much banter/friendly arguments etc on here.

Well My point is I believe everyone is equal, but if we go to Spain/Germany etc they will look after their own country men first.

This is what gets me just 2 points out of many i have.

Today down at the Masons Pub in Marshfield I bumped in to some old friends(Married couple) of my fathers.

They are both in there early 70's and as usual I asked how they were, Sid said his wife had just had a hip replacement 5 months ago and that they had had to go private because The NHS had over an 8 month waiting list, and they were told the hospitals couldnt cope with the influx of new people registering from other countries.
Sids Wife had become so ill she could not walk anymore, so they spent All their Savings on the Hip operation £10,000.
Bang has gone their holiday money for their remaining years. Yet for 50 odd years they have worked and paid their Taxs, what do they get back.
The Good news is it went well and thats why they were able to be down there having an afternoon drink.

This year when My new baby daughter was rushed in to the heath as an emergency, I will never forget when my Wife stayed every night and on the first night at about 12pm asked for a pillow and was told they had none spare by the Nurse. An hour l later an Asian lady arrived with her baby and said to the nurse i am not sleeping by here without a pillow, the same nurse rushed and got her not 1 pillow but 2 pillows.

I am just telling 2 genuine stories about how bad this country has become.

Over to you Sludge these are facts not sun newspaper reports.

the nhs told your friends that they couldnt get help because they ( the nhs people ) said that they couldnt keep up with the demand from people from other countries ?

I doubt very much that people employed by the nhs would be telling patients this , they simply dont get involved in stuff like that , especially the consultants

are you sure ?

I know a Consultant very well,we grew up together,he reckons immigrants are ruining the NHS.He is having to pull strings for people he knows

Tony it is such an absurd situation it amazes me nothing is done about it. It really makes you wonder if the Governements of today are bowing down to big businesses and makes you wonder who is pulling the strings.

Yes who is pulling the strings? But seriously Baked the argument the country needs immigration is totally based on what's best for employers who want to pay low wages and the disadvantaged from other countries, rather than what is best for the working class people in this country.

The WHOLE question of immigration should be debated properly including EU entries and the tried old excuse 'the country needs immigration' should be explained fully without an assumption it is a brilliant thing for everyone.

I fully agree with that but lets talk facts

Which seems to stir up so much banter/friendly arguments etc on here.

Well My point is I believe everyone is equal, but if we go to Spain/Germany etc they will look after their own country men first.

This is what gets me just 2 points out of many i have.

Today down at the Masons Pub in Marshfield I bumped in to some old friends(Married couple) of my fathers.

They are both in there early 70's and as usual I asked how they were, Sid said his wife had just had a hip replacement 5 months ago and that they had had to go private because The NHS had over an 8 month waiting list, and they were told the hospitals couldnt cope with the influx of new people registering from other countries.
Sids Wife had become so ill she could not walk anymore, so they spent All their Savings on the Hip operation £10,000.
Bang has gone their holiday money for their remaining years. Yet for 50 odd years they have worked and paid their Taxs, what do they get back.
The Good news is it went well and thats why they were able to be down there having an afternoon drink.

This year when My new baby daughter was rushed in to the heath as an emergency, I will never forget when my Wife stayed every night and on the first night at about 12pm asked for a pillow and was told they had none spare by the Nurse. An hour l later an Asian lady arrived with her baby and said to the nurse i am not sleeping by here without a pillow, the same nurse rushed and got her not 1 pillow but 2 pillows.

I am just telling 2 genuine stories about how bad this country has become.

Over to you Sludge these are facts not sun newspaper reports.

the nhs told your friends that they couldnt get help because they ( the nhs people ) said that they couldnt keep up with the demand from people from other countries ?

I doubt very much that people employed by the nhs would be telling patients this , they simply dont get involved in stuff like that , especially the consultants

are you sure ?

I know a Consultant very well,we grew up together,he reckons immigrants are ruining the NHS.He is having to pull strings for people he knows

thats a different thing to a consultant telling someone they are not able to get an operation becasue of immigrants

Tony it is such an absurd situation it amazes me nothing is done about it. It really makes you wonder if the Governements of today are bowing down to big businesses and makes you wonder who is pulling the strings.

Yes who is pulling the strings? But seriously Baked the argument the country needs immigration is totally based on what's best for employers who want to pay low wages and the disadvantaged from other countries, rather than what is best for the working class people in this country.

The WHOLE question of immigration should be debated properly including EU entries and the tried old excuse 'the country needs immigration' should be explained fully without an assumption it is a brilliant thing for everyone.

I fully agree with that but lets talk facts

I believe I have given you some facts with regard to the advantage foreign workers have over UK workers and the impact it has on our own people who live in poverty. Whilst I agree ALL facts should be debated there has to be an end to the default position that immigration IS a good thing no matter what.

I dont think immigration is a good thing full stop

there are plenty of examples of areas where it has gone wrong

but I am afraid this " close the borders " thing just isnt living in reality

we need a managed immigration policy

successive governments have naffed things up

there have been examples of racial tension in some cities long before the labour party came to power in 1997

what is neede is a proper debate about how we move on from here

Sludge,I didn`t say they couldn`t get operations because of imigrants.The queues are longer because of imigrants.He is having to pull in favours to get treatment for people he knows.

no ,its what annis said

I am not calling annis a liar , but I think there must be a mistake somewhere as a doctor who has said to a patient there is a waiting list of 6 months wouldnt then tell them its because of all these new arrivals

at least I would be very surprised if they did !

they dont get involved in such stuff

what a consultant says to a friend over a beer is different , but even then they are very careful what they say

perhaps people think they should be able to speak up ?

maybe thats what should be happening , if this is the case, but thats a different matter

I can't say what i really think on here, as my name if for all to see (not just posters)

All i say is i voted for how i've felt in the last 13 years under the Labour government.
And all i can say is, in the last 13 years (being a student and trying to become part of the military) has been f'cking great, that's how i voted.
Maybe pretty obvious.

Start killing illegal immigrants!! lol

sludge you say we need a 'managed immigration policy' but that is exactly what we didn't have under 13 years of a labour government, we had an uncontrolled open door policy that is why we are in the position we are in, most people in this country are tolerant and are not racist or totally against immigration, what they are against is uncontrolled mass immigration we aren't against foriegners being here it's just the sheer numbers that labour allowed in thats the problem.