Clamping down on Pubs that show City Games

Not use these on match day as got a season ticket but can be useful for away games

Premier League targets Cardiff and Swansea pubs over illegal screeningsBy Paul Martin

BBC News

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Pubs in Cardiff and Swansea suspected of showing Premier League football matches illegally using foreign satellites face prosecution, BBC Wales has learned.

In the last four months the Premier League's private investigation firm has visited nearly 200 pubs in south Wales.

The League is planning to bring up to 100 prosecutions across Wales and England this season.

The first will be against The Rhyddings Hotel in Brynmill, Swansea, shortly.

Many south Wales pubs have subscriptions with foreign channels and show Cardiff City and Swansea City's 15:00 GMT Saturday Premier League kick-offs.

These games are unavailable on the Premier League's authorised UK broadcasters - Sky Sports and BT Sport - at the kick-off time.

Copyright law
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“
Start Quote
When we go in and find use of foreign satellite systems we'll give them the opportunity to get rid of that system”
End Quote
Dan Johnson

Premier League

By showing the foreign channels, the Premier League believes pubs are probably breaking copyright law.

In 2011 Karen Murphy, a Portsmouth pub landlady, won a court case against the Premier League.

The ruling effectively proved it is legal to buy a TV subscription from anywhere in the EU.

However, when a pub or club uses such a subscription to show Premier League football matches, it is breaking copyright law if the League's logo is shown in on-screen graphics, or if the League's anthem is heard before kick-off or at half time.

Tom Richards, a barrister specialising in copyright law, said it was unlikely a pub could screen the games without breaching Premier League copyright.

"The Premier League owns the copyright in its logo, in its anthem and in other bits of sound recording and artwork which are superimposed on any feed of a Premier League match," he said.

"If you play those in a pub without the Premier League's consent that's copyright infringement in the law of copyright.

"Technically speaking, there is a loophole.

"If you could separate out the copyrighted content, such as the Premier League logo, from the match footage, then in theory you wouldn't be infringing copyright.

Pubs screening matches illegally will be warned first
"In practice it's rather doubtful whether that can be achieved because the Premier League - you can be confident - will make it as hard as possible to separate out the protected from the unprotected content."

Some pubs try to use this loophole by blocking out graphics of the Premier League logo.

But the League says its private investigation firm, ID Inquiries, has not come across any "masking technology" that would stop it taking action against a pub.

So far this season ID Inquiries has visited 195 pubs in the Cardiff and Swansea areas and is planning legal action against "a small number of them".

'Black spots'

Dan Johnson, the Premier League's director of communications, said: "BT Sport and Sky Sports invest huge amounts of money in the Premier League and that then is in turn invested by the clubs in new stadia, developing players, acquiring players, the whole range of things that make Premier League football so popular.

"So anything that damages the ability of broadcasters to invest in that has the potential to damage the ability of the clubs to invest in that.

"With the advent of Cardiff and Swansea being in the Premier League clearly the interest in Premier League football has gone through the roof in south Wales.

"So, it becomes an area of interest and you can go round the country and you can see these blackspots where Premier League football is of great interest, and people will try and utilise that interest to their advantage, including pubs and clubs.

"We want to help pubs, we want to help educate licensees, and when we go in and find use of foreign satellite systems we'll give them the opportunity to get rid of that system."

"So if in the first instance - they say 'we hear you, we'll get rid of this system and we'll get a legitimate one' - they will face no further action and we don't want to be going round the country prosecuting pubs and licensees.

"However if they choose not to, they face the very real prospect of prosecution."

Mr Johnson says the League expects to bring up to 100 prosecutions this season across Wales and England.

The action against The Rhyddings Hotel in Swansea is the League's first prosecution since the Karen Murphy case and is expected to be heard in the next few weeks.

I wonder how many of the pubs being taking to court have bt and sky subs ,I bet its only.the pubs who don't have sky and bt that are being hounded

So Wez your saying as long as you have bt and sky then you will be o.k. That's o.k. Then. There's a lot of money to be made/lost. I can't imagine a pub getting fined, accepting it and the pub down the road gets away with it.

Pubs will be warned first. .. as u were then!

So Wez your saying as long as you have bt and sky then you will be o.k. That's o.k. Then. There's a lot of money to be made/lost. I can't imagine a pub getting fined, accepting it and the pub down the road gets away with it.

I had to sign up with bt this week ,the bt rep said that if you have sky and bt then the premier league are turning a blind eye , as how can they say your defrauding the premier league of money when your paying all the available subscriptions ,the fact is if a pub down the road have not got sky or bt then they are not paying into the premier league ,I think it would be wise for all pub owners showing the Cardiffgames to have sky and bt as well

Pubs will be warned first. .. as u were then!

Id and g4s have a list of pubs that havnt got valid bt and sky subscription s and are visiting them ,so the bt rep was saying but I know its a legal mine field for the premier league as the article doesn't say about all the pubs that have been taking to court and have won, most systems have a 2 min delay and have the premier league logos covered up ,replays and music have already been dismissed in court cases already ,this will go to the eu courts again

Go on Wes my son

Go on Wes my son

The premier league are good at trying to get the media to do their dirty work with stories like these ,landlords who have got sky and/or bt should just take them on

Go on Wes my son

The premier league are good at trying to get the media to do their dirty work with stories like these ,landlords who have got sky and/or bt should just take them on

I wonder if we will see a reduction in the Sky Sports subscription next year once BT get a bigger slice of the pie, champions league.etc.

I f*cking doubt it.

We will have more netball and ping pong to try and justify the ridiculous rates they charge.

Go on Wes my son

The premier league are good at trying to get the media to do their dirty work with stories like these ,landlords who have got sky and/or bt should just take them on

I wonder if we will see a reduction in the Sky Sports subscription next year once BT get a bigger slice of the pie, champions league.etc.

I f*cking doubt it.

We will have more netball and ping pong to try and justify the ridiculous rates they charge.

ESPN had the games last year free on sky ,they lost it to bt this seaso.but put the sub up even tho we get less games the fuckers

I know the guy up the Rhyddings well as his pub is just up the road from mine. A group of landlords being prosecuted have got together and hired the same solicitor that fought the case in Portsmouth.

They seem quite confident about winning...watch this space I guess?

It went to court not long ago and the land lady won! And quite rightly so I say, theres no law against watching a foreign TV channel.

I think it's just the 3pm Saturday games they are worried about at the moment. What does BT & sky have to do with Saturday 3pm games? The premier league are worried about the drop in attendances not just people paying for sky and BT. This court case will be VERY interesting.

I think it's just the 3pm Saturday games they are worried about at the moment. What does BT & sky have to do with Saturday 3pm games? The premier league are worried about the drop in attendances not just people paying for sky and BT. This court case will be VERY interesting.

Basically the PL want to be able to sell the TV rights abroad AND stop us watching those channels! The thing is last time it went to court the land lady won because they agreed there is nothing to say you can't watch a foreign TV channel and they are right.

I think it's just the 3pm Saturday games they are worried about at the moment. What does BT & sky have to do with Saturday 3pm games? The premier league are worried about the drop in attendances not just people paying for sky and BT. This court case will be VERY interesting.

No its not 3pm games cause in wales there is no law and no closed period for the tv coverage on Saturdays like in England

I think it's just the 3pm Saturday games they are worried about at the moment. What does BT & sky have to do with Saturday 3pm games? The premier league are worried about the drop in attendances not just people paying for sky and BT. This court case will be VERY interesting.

Basically the PL want to be able to sell the TV rights abroad AND stop us watching those channels! The thing is last time it went to court the land lady won because they agreed there is nothing to say you can't watch a foreign TV channel and they are right.

They tried the copyright argument in that case but the judge dismissed it as its part of every broadcast the logos ,Ithe media that hype this up ,you are aload to watch tv from any country in the eu and the premier can not do anything about it

From BBC Wales

The League is planning to bring up to 100 prosecutions across Wales and England this season.

The first will be against The Rhyddings Hotel in Brynmill, Swansea, shortly.

Many south Wales pubs have subscriptions with foreign channels and show Cardiff City and Swansea City's 15:00 GMT Saturday Premier League kick-offs.

These games are unavailable on the Premier League's authorised UK broadcasters - Sky Sports and BT Sport - at the kick-off time.

From BBC Wales

The League is planning to bring up to 100 prosecutions across Wales and England this season.

The first will be against The Rhyddings Hotel in Brynmill, Swansea, shortly.

Many south Wales pubs have subscriptions with foreign channels and show Cardiff City and Swansea City's 15:00 GMT Saturday Premier League kick-offs.

These games are unavailable on the Premier League's authorised UK broadcasters - Sky Sports and BT Sport - at the kick-off time.

But sky and bt don't show 3 pm and I will say again it is legal in wales to show 3pm games due to there being no law in wales about tv football coverage ,there is no "closed period " only England and the English fa has a closed period

Cheers Wez! Just wanted some clarity.

I can see the premier league being on a bit of a sticky wicket here with regard to copyright.

From my understanding the satellite channels contract with the premier league permits them to broadcast the game and the premier league logos / music to their subscribers. I am not sure how they plan to say that one customer is not breaking copyright in one country yet in a different country would be if they have a valid subscription.

Whilst its ok for the pubs that show EU based satellite channels its not so clear with regard to some of the middle east based ones and a few pubs may get stung because of that. Also some using android boxes may end up with a large bill but I have little sympathy for them as they should be paying for a service of some not freeloading off internet streams for profit.

Sky and BT are vastly over priced for what they supply and until they make their pricing realistic people are going to look for cheaper alternatives.

I can see this going all the way to the European court again and hopefully all the pubs that get a court notice stick together and finally get the premier league put in their place.

I can see the premier league being on a bit of a sticky wicket here with regard to copyright.

From my understanding the satellite channels contract with the premier league permits them to broadcast the game and the premier league logos / music to their subscribers. I am not sure how they plan to say that one customer is not breaking copyright in one country yet in a different country would be if they have a valid subscription.

Whilst its ok for the pubs that show EU based satellite channels its not so clear with regard to some of the middle east based ones and a few pubs may get stung because of that. Also some using android boxes may end up with a large bill but I have little sympathy for them as they should be paying for a service of some not freeloading off internet streams for profit.

Sky and BT are vastly over priced for what they supply and until they make their pricing realistic people are going to look for cheaper alternatives.

I can see this going all the way to the European court again and hopefully all the pubs that get a court notice stick together and finally get the premier league put in their place.

I don't.think you get how the internet boxes work ,they are not free and some cost well over 1000 pound plus a monthly subscription you pay a sub off an European sat company which they send the signal down to the boxes and you access the channel s by clicking on their preloaded apps ,for you to say pubs are free loading I find deeply offensive and you need to get your facts right before slaying off publicans off that are providing a costly service !

I can see the premier league being on a bit of a sticky wicket here with regard to copyright.

From my understanding the satellite channels contract with the premier league permits them to broadcast the game and the premier league logos / music to their subscribers. I am not sure how they plan to say that one customer is not breaking copyright in one country yet in a different country would be if they have a valid subscription.

Whilst its ok for the pubs that show EU based satellite channels its not so clear with regard to some of the middle east based ones and a few pubs may get stung because of that. Also some using android boxes may end up with a large bill but I have little sympathy for them as they should be paying for a service of some not freeloading off internet streams for profit.

Sky and BT are vastly over priced for what they supply and until they make their pricing realistic people are going to look for cheaper alternatives.

I can see this going all the way to the European court again and hopefully all the pubs that get a court notice stick together and finally get the premier league put in their place.

I don't.think you get how the internet boxes work ,they are not free and some cost well over 1000 pound plus a monthly subscription you pay a sub off an European sat company which they send the signal down to the boxes and you access the channel s by clicking on their preloaded apps ,for you to say pubs are free loading I find deeply offensive and you need to get your facts right before slaying off publicans off that are providing a costly service !

Wes you have the wrong end of the stick far from slagging off landlord who are paying a subscription for a service I think they have every right to show the games if they are paying to do so. However some less scrupulous people are buying the cheap boxes from ebay that are less than £100 and using them in a pub that is what I meant

I can see the premier league being on a bit of a sticky wicket here with regard to copyright.

From my understanding the satellite channels contract with the premier league permits them to broadcast the game and the premier league logos / music to their subscribers. I am not sure how they plan to say that one customer is not breaking copyright in one country yet in a different country would be if they have a valid subscription.

Whilst its ok for the pubs that show EU based satellite channels its not so clear with regard to some of the middle east based ones and a few pubs may get stung because of that. Also some using android boxes may end up with a large bill but I have little sympathy for them as they should be paying for a service of some not freeloading off internet streams for profit.

Sky and BT are vastly over priced for what they supply and until they make their pricing realistic people are going to look for cheaper alternatives.

I can see this going all the way to the European court again and hopefully all the pubs that get a court notice stick together and finally get the premier league put in their place.

I don't.think you get how the internet boxes work ,they are not free and some cost well over 1000 pound plus a monthly subscription you pay a sub off an European sat company which they send the signal down to the boxes and you access the channel s by clicking on their preloaded apps ,for you to say pubs are free loading I find deeply offensive and you need to get your facts right before slaying off publicans off that are providing a costly service !

Wes you have the wrong end of the stick far from slagging off landlord who are paying a subscription for a service I think they have every right to show the games if they are paying to do so. However some less scrupulous people are buying the cheap boxes from ebay that are less than £100 and using them in a pub that is what I meant

Ok.just for futur ref android boxes are all the internet streamsing devices that are the norm now but you pay for the software and accounts on them ,if your buying off an European company regardless of the content on there ,you are legally iintittled to do so ,the company I've been using have been to court and won there case last season ,its not ad clear cut as the BBC and premier league are making it out to be

I know the guy up the Rhyddings well as his pub is just up the road from mine. A group of landlords being prosecuted have got together and hired the same solicitor that fought the case in Portsmouth.

They seem quite confident about winning...watch this space I guess?

This will be referred back to the European courts again

I can see the premier league being on a bit of a sticky wicket here with regard to copyright.

From my understanding the satellite channels contract with the premier league permits them to broadcast the game and the premier league logos / music to their subscribers. I am not sure how they plan to say that one customer is not breaking copyright in one country yet in a different country would be if they have a valid subscription.

Whilst its ok for the pubs that show EU based satellite channels its not so clear with regard to some of the middle east based ones and a few pubs may get stung because of that. Also some using android boxes may end up with a large bill but I have little sympathy for them as they should be paying for a service of some not freeloading off internet streams for profit.

Sky and BT are vastly over priced for what they supply and until they make their pricing realistic people are going to look for cheaper alternatives.

I can see this going all the way to the European court again and hopefully all the pubs that get a court notice stick together and finally get the premier league put in their place.

I don't.think you get how the internet boxes work ,they are not free and some cost well over 1000 pound plus a monthly subscription you pay a sub off an European sat company which they send the signal down to the boxes and you access the channel s by clicking on their preloaded apps ,for you to say pubs are free loading I find deeply offensive and you need to get your facts right before slaying off publicans off that are providing a costly service !

Wes you have the wrong end of the stick far from slagging off landlord who are paying a subscription for a service I think they have every right to show the games if they are paying to do so. However some less scrupulous people are buying the cheap boxes from ebay that are less than £100 and using them in a pub that is what I meant

Ok.just for futur ref android boxes are all the internet streamsing devices that are the norm now but you pay for the software and accounts on them ,if your buying off an European company regardless of the content on there ,you are legally iintittled to do so ,the company I've been using have been to court and won there case last season ,its not ad clear cut as the BBC and premier league are making it out to be

I am aware how the boxes work and have seen a lot of posters on here discussing how they use them at home from the games without a subscription - great idea am thinking of one myself. Big difference once you apply that to a commercial premises where they are generating revenue. I have been watching this debate about the legalities of showing football from various sources for years as a good friend of mine has a pub and its nowhere near as clear cut as either side would like it to be.

I hope they do sort it out as its a huge grey area and people on both sides of the argument are using that uncertainty to their benefit. Hopefully the end result is a better deal for pubs with a service that is actually half decent and more importantly 100% legal.