Free Speech V's Police,CPS and Homophobic, Sheep shaggers..

And that like.

Came across this article.

I think it's stinks of political correctness myself. I've pointed out on this forum on a numerous occasions that I don't mind banter in context but think the authorities are going over board.

I'd like posters opinions on this article below, is he/she right, has a good point or not?


2 Derby fans got 3 year banning orders last week for homophobic songs, chanting.

Freedom of speech

The lack of protest against new guidelines clamping down on homophobic chants shows free speech only applies to the ‘right’ kind of people
First they came for the racists and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a racist. Then they came for the Old Firm sectarians and I didn’t speak out because wasn’t a sectarian. Then they came for the homophobes.

Pastor Martin Niemöller’s famous poem about the rise of the Nazis could just as easily apply to the lack of liberal opposition to the incremental erosion of freedom of expression at football. Initially, the authorities targeted racist chants. Next, it was the Old Firm war songs which were criminalised in Scotland. Now, the Etiquette Inquisition has turned its attentions to anti-gay chants. Last week, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) issued new guidelines warning fans that they would pursue a ‘robust prosecution policy’ against homophobic chanting.

Most right-minded, Guardian reading folk would quite rightly cry foul at the gagging of stand-up comedians or anti-Scientology protesters or Sam Brown, the Oxford student who called a police horse ‘gay’. Free speech is worth defending when it applies to ‘people like us’. We can all agree that section 5 of the Public Order Act, which outlaws ‘abusive or insulting words or behaviour’, is an affront to liberty. But so-called liberals are conspicuously absent when it comes to defending the right of white working-class men to sing abusive terrace songs. ‘What about racism?’ they say. ‘There have to be limits to free speech.’ This is what I would call the ‘free speech but…’ position. Free speech is fine. But not when it offends our liberal sensibilities.

The selective defence of free speech has allowed a steady erosion of the civil liberties of football supporters in Britain. ‘Racialist or indecent chanting’ at football is a criminal offence under section 3 of the Football Offences Act 1991. Where was the opposition to that piece of legislation? Where were the petitions and demonstrations when the law was passed? There weren’t any. Not a squeak of protest. In fact, the outlawing of racist chanting was warmly applauded by the ‘free speech but…’ brigade. As I’ve argued before on spiked, anti-racism today has become predominantly a demand for the observance of correct racial etiquette. We saw a similar ambivalence in Scotland to the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Act 2012, which made sectarian chants at football a criminal offence punishable by up to five years’ imprisonment.

Now it’s the turn of fans who sing homophobic songs to face prosecution. We’ve all heard gay taunts at football. Brighton fans are regularly serenaded with choruses of ‘Does your boyfriend know you’re here?’ or ‘We can see you holding hands’. During the Championship play-off semi-final, Crystal Palace fans chanted ‘Stand up, cos you can’t sit down’ and ‘Brighton take it up the bum’. It’s all pretty childish stuff. Unlike racist chanting, which is hostile and aimed at black players, gay chants are directed predominantly at heterosexual men. I doubt any Palace fans seriously believe that the majority of Brighton fans are gay. Brighton fans themselves don’t appear to be particularly offended by the playground taunts. In a poll on the North Stand Chat message board, 70 per cent of Albion fans said they weren’t bothered by the gay taunts. But, as far as the CPS is concerned, homophobic chanting, regardless of context, is a ‘hate crime’.

The ACPO/CPS guidance seeks to draw a distinction between banter and abuse: ‘We recognise, as do the overwhelming majority of decent fans, that there is a place for humour in football, but where the line between humour and offensive behaviour is crossed then positive action will be taken.’ But who decides where to draw the line? What constitutes offensive behaviour is inevitably subjective. Some people are offended by swearing or anti-religious jibes. Should these be banned too? Should we follow the recent example of Liverpool FC and outlaw phrases like ‘man up’ and ‘you play like a girl’ because they are sexist? It’s certainly in very poor taste to sing songs about the Munich air crash, but should this be a criminal offence, too? What about chants of ‘sheep shaggers’ aimed at the Welsh, or jibes such as ‘hubcap thieves’ and ‘granny stabbers’ directed at Scousers? Do these insults cross the decency threshold? Once you start to curb terrace jibes on the grounds that someone might be offended, it becomes extremely difficult to know where to draw the line.

When the homophobic chanters have been banned, who will the authorities come for next? Remember that the law prohibits chanting which is ‘indecent’ - a term capable of being widely interpreted. It’s pretty clear that the clampdown won’t stop with racism or homophobia. As Nick Hawkins, lead sports prosecutor at the CPS, puts it: ‘We’ve seen a welcome rise in recent years in the numbers of families attending football matches together as a result of friendlier atmospheres inside grounds, and that’s a trend that we’d all like to see continue.’ But if we make the matchday atmosphere ‘friendlier’, if we purge all offensive chanting, then we irreparably damage football. Why? Because insult, mockery and obscenity are as much a part of the matchday experience as the half-time pies. A football match has traditionally been a carnival of vulgarity. The stadium is a place where the social norms are temporarily relaxed; where singing and swearing is permitted, and where grown men are allowed to behave like kids for 90 minutes.

Some terrace songs are witty, some are cruel and tasteless, and some are extremely vile and offensive. If you don’t like what fans are singing, then you should take issue with them, confront them and have an argument. But don’t allow the authorities to ban football chants. We should defend the right of football fans to sing what they want. If you don’t speak out against the clampdown on abusive chants, not only will free speech suffer, but football itself will die.

we have had it for years being Welsh playing English teams week in week out, 1-0 to the sheep shaggers I say

we have had it for years being Welsh playing English teams week in week out, 1-0 to the sheep shaggers I say

You're having a laugh, more like 1-0 to the Nancy boys

Its a good debate.

When the Welsh are called Sheep Shaggers, its laughed of, but you could say that was racist.
Call a foreigner a joking name or abbreviate their nationality and your arrested for being racists even though your not really a racist.

Its a good debate.

When the Welsh are called Sheep Shaggers, its laughed of, but you could say that was racist.
Call a foreigner a joking name or abbreviate their nationality and your arrested for being racists even though your not really a racist.

Totally agree with your sentiments. I got banned for specking (Blackburn home game last season) what I felt at the time was just expressing my views but got a year and half ban for being a racist bigot even thou I wasn't and they still haven't explained what comment I was alleged to have made. I worry about opening my mouth now just in case I offend someone.

Where will it end?

Its a good debate.

When the Welsh are called Sheep Shaggers, its laughed of, but you could say that was racist.
Call a foreigner a joking name or abbreviate their nationality and your arrested for being racists even though your not really a racist.

Just making some grub but will write up why I got banned for and will post it within the hour. I'll let you judge me on whether I was out of order and deserved a ban or not. I like peoples opinions so will accept your verdict my honor as you're the perfect person to decide

It's a difficult one, where do you draw the line. Racist chants have been outlawed, rightly IMO and you don't hear them anymore, a good thing. As the OP says these chants and words were always used in a aggressive and derogatory manner. The so called 'homophobic' chants we use now predominantly used towards Brightion don't have that feel about them and seem to be used in a more jokingly way, banter as some people call it. They don't really seem to offend anyone really, certainly not those that attend football matches.

I personally think that we have right at the moment with only the odd incident in recent times of truly offensive (IMO) chanting.

Its a good debate.

When the Welsh are called Sheep Shaggers, its laughed of, but you could say that was racist.
Call a foreigner a joking name or abbreviate their nationality and your arrested for being racists even though your not really a racist.

Just making some grub but will write up why I got banned for and will post it within the hour. I'll let you judge me on whether I was out of order and deserved a ban or not. I like peoples opinions so will accept your verdict my honor as you're the perfect person to decide

dont want to hear the story - you are guilty end of, because you follow the gay scene and are English - I rest my case Petrocelli

You want a reaction didn't you? Met your types before. Can only say that you must be a barrel of laughs to drink with. I have no time for people like you who can't engage in good conversation and respect other football fans point of views. You are a waste of space and not worthy of my attention anymore. If there was an ignore list you'd be on it but there isn't so I can only just move past your posts in future like silent ships passing in the ocean at night.
Bye.

Its a good debate.

When the Welsh are called Sheep Shaggers, its laughed of, but you could say that was racist.
Call a foreigner a joking name or abbreviate their nationality and your arrested for being racists even though your not really a racist.

Just making some grub but will write up why I got banned for and will post it within the hour. I'll let you judge me on whether I was out of order and deserved a ban or not. I like peoples opinions so will accept your verdict my honor as you're the perfect person to decide

dont want to hear the story - you are guilty end of, because you follow the gay scene and are English - I rest my case Petrocelli

You want a reaction didn't you? Met your types before. Can only say that you must be a barrel of laughs to drink with. I have no time for people like you who can't engage in good conversation and respect other football fans point of views. You are a waste of space and not worthy of my attention anymore. If there was an ignore list you'd be on it but there isn't so I can only just move past your posts in future like silent ships passing in the ocean at night.
Bye.

There is an ignore lsit

Its a good debate.

When the Welsh are called Sheep Shaggers, its laughed of, but you could say that was racist.
Call a foreigner a joking name or abbreviate their nationality and your arrested for being racists even though your not really a racist.

Just making some grub but will write up why I got banned for and will post it within the hour. I'll let you judge me on whether I was out of order and deserved a ban or not. I like peoples opinions so will accept your verdict my honor as you're the perfect person to decide

dont want to hear the story - you are guilty end of, because you follow the gay scene and are English - I rest my case Petrocelli

You want a reaction didn't you? Met your types before. Can only say that you must be a barrel of laughs to drink with. I have no time for people like you who can't engage in good conversation and respect other football fans point of views. You are a waste of space and not worthy of my attention anymore. If there was an ignore list you'd be on it but there isn't so I can only just move past your posts in future like silent ships passing in the ocean at night.
Bye.

There is an ignore lsit

Hadn't noticed Ian. I'll have a look and stick him on it. Thanks

Don't know If I've said before but I work at Gatwick airport, air side, as we're building a new tier on the north terminal so access is strict. We enter the pilots, air hostess and catering staff side and is just as strict as pass angers. Shoes, belt, wallet, keys the lot has to go threw the scanners.Been used to this for so long that it's become the norm and it's f*cking repetitive.

Got the train down to Brighton and had quick beer (The Standered, our pub) before picking up my laptop, headed to the ground and was stopped by the nazi stewards at the North east turnstiles of the north stand. I was asked what I had in my bag so I explained that I had a laptop and work clothes then they said could they search it and said fine but all what's in it is the said items above then they said so do you mind us searching the bag, I said I just said you can and all whats in it is the above items then they said so we can search it then, Jesus Christ

They searched it and said fine, go in, what? You are allowing me in just like that after searching my bag and not me? I said you don't know what I could have on me as the said banned items on the wall, Flares, explosives, knifes etc wouldn't be concede in bags as everyone knows you search bags so if anyone wants to bring in said items above then they'd conceal the said items on themselves. We don't think so, what do you mean we don't think so, you'd never get a job at the airport as you'd fail miserably and allow Muslim extremists to slip past.

The female steward said why point them out for? Don't you read the papers or listen to the news I said? I was winning the argument but they thought I was being racist as kept going on about Muslims. Take the Irish in the 60,70,80,90's, (I dropped into the conversation) In London in the square mile, if you was Irish they'd pull you over but if you had English accents then you was fine but now you must stop everyone even little old grannys as they might have a bomb, it's political correctness gone mad, we can't target one group or do profiling as it's discrimination so not to offend one group we have to search everyone and offend everyone, PC gone mad.

They let me in after out heated discussion and long live democracy and freedom of speech I thought but my troubles were just about to start.

Stewards?

There is 3 kind of stewards at our ground like most grounds and they have all have specific tasks.

1, Stewards at the turnstiles, if you're drunk or abusive then they can deny you entry (they allowed me in)
2, Stewards in the stands, If you misbehave then they can kick you out (I never met any, I'm safe)
3, Stewards on the concourse, get drunk or abusive then you are out (never met any, still safe)

Now the stewards who let me in means I'm ok but what unfolded is beyond complete and utter farce and like me or like anyone with any self pride would do the same and defend themselves with the utmost respect and I wasn't any difference so wasn't taking any bile from these jumped up jobworths and had one almighty row outside the ground with 7 stewards and 5 police officers.

40 minutes! Yes, 40 minutes!

I was drinking on the concourse and 40 minutes later, yes 40 minutes later the same stewards who let me in approached me (They let me in so them being on the concourse was a no no) and said can we have a word about a comment you made earlier? sorry? you made a comment earlier and we'd like to clarify it? What comment, you made some and I made some and besides that was 40 minutes ago, this woman bitch, first day, new steward was on a power trip.

The other stewards were goading her (fans comments) and she bit and tried to stamp her authority.

Can we just move over here please sir, fine. Lets just move a bit further sir and a steward held my arm then I said take your hand of me, then another held my arm, I said listen, I know where where we're going and we're going out side and said if you put one more hand on me then I'll have you charged for assault as you are abusing your position as you let me in now you want to chat outside, You are stewards, nothing more, nothing less, just a bunch of jobsworths.

Moved outside and the OB were there waiting. Surrounded and I was like an animal boxed into the corner but wounded animals are a danger when boxed in and that what I was and wasn't going to take no shit and would give as good as I got so they started saying this and that and I said look, I don't want to speck with you and no doubt you feel the same so let the police be the 3rd party, you ask a question and they'll translate it to me and visa versa as you're nothing but jobsworths who think you have power but in reality you have f**k all.

It went on for ages them telling the police what I said and must admit it did sound bad then the police asked for my account and told them and they laughed and one PC young girl said can't see what the issue is, I retorted with that political correctness have eroded our liberties in this country and it won't be long before we have to walk around with gather tape on our mouths incase we offend someone and it'll be like Iran then I said, f**k it, I'm going home.

Phoned the club the next day and spoke with the head of security and gave my account of what happened and said he'd read the report and let me know by the weekend, nothing!

On the Tuesday I went to the club and spoke with a very helpful sectary who informed me the person who I was after was in fact on holiday and that she'd make sure that someone contacts me today. Been a Brighton season ticket holder for 35 year (minus the bans) so think I deserve some loyalty.

Got home and found a letter from the club. Opened it and read it and utter f*cking shit, I mean f*cking shit, they still didn't have the balls to say what comment I made regarding the incident on the night, they just said I'm banned for rascist comments, but what f*cking rascit comments?

I didn't call anyone a nigger or paki. Arent we allowed to mention Muslims now in conversations? Are newspapers to be banned for saying Muslims are trying to bomb us.

What can I say or allowed to say? I'd like someone to tell me as don't want to utter a word that may offend anyone.

Oh, Brighton, go f**k yourselves you cunts, I was there thou thick and thin now you have these new plastic fans then you don't need me anymore but what happens when these new fans f**k off? I know you want me back but you can forget that you fucks.

Might go back if you get rid of the PC GANG!

TBH an 18 month ban is OTT but I think you have fallen foul of the classic circumstance of picking a fight at the wrong time about the wrong issue.

There are times when freedom of speech allows for discussion of Muslim terrorists and the IRA bombing campaigns, but one of those times isn't really when you are being searched outside a football ground and feel a bit peeved.

Honestly what you should have done was give the steward a disapproving look and rolled your eyes but not get into an argument which puts you on the back foot straight away.

As said this could have been dealt with better by Brighton HA and they certainly have some very low standard stewarding, but vindictiveness is a human nature and it doesn't surprise me that they were after being called "jobs worth" on several occasions.

We have all been there.

They say its a free Country with free speech. But in reality it isn't it is only free speech if it tows the Government's ideology

I personally enjoy away fans posts on here, especially good posts and I would like other posters to Respect them if they give us Respect Please

The Brighton poster deserves respect back please

I actually enjoyed reading the posts by the Brighton fan above and as a fellow football fan I am interested in seeing our fans are treated at other clubs as well as ours, keep them coming, enjoy seeing fans from other clubs use this board.

They say its a free Country with free speech. But in reality it isn't it is only free speech if it tows the Government's ideology

Well you have to go further with that. It tows the ideology that wins votes.

I recall in my days in the military you could call a black man a spade and take the piss out of homosexuals. The black man then had a sense of humour and the gay was living in the closet.

Today the black man can mean one of many nationalities and the gay is now walking freely in our street. This means that the subjects are taboo and the governments of the day see them as vote winners.

Interesting set of posts.
What has been obvious for some years now is how govt. and it's various offshoots including the subsidised grievance and p.c. campaigners have targeted and used football as a social engineering project.
After all where else would you get so many largely white 'working class' males of the very type that our mind bending propagandising friends wish to target.
You can have a view on whether or not what the 'ism's' that have/are being targeted are objectionable or not (at least I assume this is still permitted) but it is happening down from the big national campaigns to the 'strategies' put in place by the local safety groups/old bill/stewards etc
It's just part of what is happening across the board. e.g. the CPS is effectively the state political prosecutor enforcing the pc agenda.

It seems to me Stewards being tossers as usual. They're the same as bouncers and security guards, bit of power and they think they're god. From my experience it always these that start the trouble by winding punters up to the point they kick off, they're not trained to deal with people properly. Coppers (mostly), on the other hand seem to deal with people much better and know how to diffuse a situation and when to pick battles.

Although I do think you maybe you went to far with the arguing with them and although arguing or debating a topic should never be and isn't an offence, stewards being stewards, they were always going to try and get their own back. Sad really that they've banned a loyal fan because their egos were hurt essentially.

It seems to me Stewards being tossers as usual. They're the same as bouncers and security guards, bit of power and they think they're god. From my experience it always these that start the trouble by winding punters up to the point they kick off, they're not trained to deal with people properly. Coppers (mostly), on the other hand seem to deal with people much better and know how to diffuse a situation and when to pick battles.

Although I do think you maybe you went to far with the arguing with them and although arguing or debating a topic should never be and isn't an offence, stewards being stewards, they were always going to try and get their own back. Sad really that they've banned a loyal fan because their egos were hurt essentially.

no idea what you are on about

simple fact whether he deserved the ban is between him and the club

i assume the club banned him not a police ban, they dont have to give excuses if they dont want you there thats it.

as for his argument over searching stewards search in different ways, searching at football grounds are there as a visual deterrent rather than an actual search unlike what you would go through at an airport, so his point was invalid about arent you going to search me properly he was being an annoyance from the start.

either way this doesnt have anything to do with freedom of speech its just one man using any excuse to have a go

It won't be long before we all have to sit in silence and hold hands at the footy!

Whatever happened to freedom of speech. It's getting more like nazi germany everyday!

It seems to me Stewards being tossers as usual. They're the same as bouncers and security guards, bit of power and they think they're god. From my experience it always these that start the trouble by winding punters up to the point they kick off, they're not trained to deal with people properly. Coppers (mostly), on the other hand seem to deal with people much better and know how to diffuse a situation and when to pick battles.

Although I do think you maybe you went to far with the arguing with them and although arguing or debating a topic should never be and isn't an offence, stewards being stewards, they were always going to try and get their own back. Sad really that they've banned a loyal fan because their egos were hurt essentially.

no idea what you are on about

simple fact whether he deserved the ban is between him and the club

i assume the club banned him not a police ban, they dont have to give excuses if they dont want you there thats it.

as for his argument over searching stewards search in different ways, searching at football grounds are there as a visual deterrent rather than an actual search unlike what you would go through at an airport, so his point was invalid about arent you going to search me properly he was being an annoyance from the start.

either way this doesnt have anything to do with freedom of speech its just one man using any excuse to have a go

I said that he shouldn't have argued with the stewards but do you really think it's fair that someone got banned for having a maybe slightly misguided rant that probably mildly annoyed the stewards. He didn't hurl any racist abuse at anyone, he wasn't violent, OK he called the stewards jobsworths but hardly the crime of the century, in fact not even a crime at all. An 18 month ban is extremely harsh in these cirumstances.

It seems to me Stewards being tossers as usual. They're the same as bouncers and security guards, bit of power and they think they're god. From my experience it always these that start the trouble by winding punters up to the point they kick off, they're not trained to deal with people properly. Coppers (mostly), on the other hand seem to deal with people much better and know how to diffuse a situation and when to pick battles.

Although I do think you maybe you went to far with the arguing with them and although arguing or debating a topic should never be and isn't an offence, stewards being stewards, they were always going to try and get their own back. Sad really that they've banned a loyal fan because their egos were hurt essentially.

no idea what you are on about

simple fact whether he deserved the ban is between him and the club

i assume the club banned him not a police ban, they dont have to give excuses if they dont want you there thats it.

as for his argument over searching stewards search in different ways, searching at football grounds are there as a visual deterrent rather than an actual search unlike what you would go through at an airport, so his point was invalid about arent you going to search me properly he was being an annoyance from the start.

either way this doesnt have anything to do with freedom of speech its just one man using any excuse to have a go

I said that he shouldn't have argued with the stewards but do you really think it's fair that someone got banned for having a maybe slightly misguided rant that probably mildly annoyed the stewards. He didn't hurl any racist abuse at anyone, he wasn't violent, OK he called the stewards jobsworths but hardly the crime of the century, in fact not even a crime at all. An 18 month ban is extremely harsh in these cirumstances.

doesnt have to be a crime its the clubs choice if they dont want you there anymore they dont have to put up with you, they dont have to justify their decision either, they have that right.

though from what ive read this is more than a steward having a bad day, stewards are mostly ignored by the clubs they work for trust me ive seen stewards put legitimate complaints about certain fans after putting up with continual threats of violence and other disgusting comments (I know these fans are in the minority but they do exist) and all the clubs see are pound signs.

i think they saw an opportunity to ban him and took it suggesting hes persistent offender.

Another example of how the middle class have ruined the football experience.

Its a good debate.

When the Welsh are called Sheep Shaggers, its laughed of, but you could say that was racist.
Call a foreigner a joking name or abbreviate their nationality and your arrested for being racists even though your not really a racist.

Just making some grub but will write up why I got banned for and will post it within the hour. I'll let you judge me on whether I was out of order and deserved a ban or not. I like peoples opinions so will accept your verdict my honor as you're the perfect person to decide

dont want to hear the story - you are guilty end of, because you follow the gay scene and are English - I rest my case Petrocelli

You want a reaction didn't you? Met your types before. Can only say that you must be a barrel of laughs to drink with. I have no time for people like you who can't engage in good conversation and respect other football fans point of views. You are a waste of space and not worthy of my attention anymore. If there was an ignore list you'd be on it but there isn't so I can only just move past your posts in future like silent ships passing in the ocean at night.
Bye.

There is an ignore lsit

Hadn't noticed Ian. I'll have a look and stick him on it. Thanks

My posts were in jest obviously, chill out and relax you need to. Please dont put me on your ignore list or I will have to go suicide watch tut.........