English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 11:25 am
" Your football may be richer... but our clubs don't have to call Russia or Asia to get their orders! The blunt message from ' Wembley's all-German European finalists for the money-obsessed English game "
By MARTHA KELNER
PUBLISHED: 18th May 2013
English football, awash with Abu Dhabi, Qatari, Russian and US money, has not placed the same onus on developing young players.
The sight of Wembley Way on Saturday, coloured by the red-and-white of Bayern Munich and the yellow-and-black of Borussia Dortmund will not be a particularly welcome one for English football. The national stadium swaying to the beat of German football anthems is not exactly what was envisaged.
Chelsea had designs on defending their Champions League title on home turf but crashed out in the group stages, suffering the ignominy of the earliest exit for holders. Manchester City limped out at the same stage, while Manchester United and Arsenal bowed out in the round of 16.
Nobody saw the double-Deutsch finale coming. But this apparent shift in football’s hierarchy, from the financially manicured English and Spanish leagues to the more grounded, fan-owned Bundesliga is no accident.
Top man: Robert Lewandowski scored four goals against Real Madrid in the semi-final first leg to help Dortmund reach the Champions League final at Wembley
Dortmund chief executive Hans-Joachim Watzke thinks important lessons can be gleaned from the Germans, particularly for those clubs operating as multinational corporations and run on the whim of foreign billionaires.
‘We do not need to telephone Asia or Russia to get our orders,’ said Watzke. ‘We make our own thing. That’s the point of our own philosophy and our power.
'In merchandising and sponsorship, it’s a good situation for us. We must be more creative to make our own way. We must be more native, to make our own culture, to have the same people for a lot of years.’
Seventh heaven: Bayern Munich incredibly beat Barcelona 7-0 on aggregate to reach the final
German football, run by Germans, for Germans. That was the mantra of Bayern and Dortmund as they prepare for Saturday’s first all-German final of Europe’s premier club competition.
Granted, some of the star players are foreign — Holland’s Arjen Robben and France’s Franck Ribery at Munich and the Polish trio at Dortmund, Jakub Błaszczykowski, Łukasz Piszczek and, most notably, Robert Lewandowski, whose four goals stunned Real Madrid in the semi-final. But the core of both teams is homegrown, as are the coaches, Dortmund’s Jurgen Klopp and Bayern’s Jupp Heynckes.
At both clubs, the majority of shares are owned by fans, meaning they remain tied to their communities. A season ticket at Bayern’s architecturally spectacular Allianz Arena costs the equivalent of £101, less than £6 per Bundesliga game. Contrast that with £985 for Arsenal’s cheapest season ticket.
Watzke suggests English fans are treated as cash cows. ‘It’s not good when you treat fans as if they are just customers,’ he said. ‘There is a difference. A fan is a fan with his heart, and from that he gives his money.’
The affordability of tickets means younger and less affluent fans can attend matches. This, argues Watzke, improves the atmosphere in grounds, a view Roy Keane, who famously lambasted United’s corporate ‘prawn sandwich’ brigade would doubtless endorse.
Not that the Bundesliga lacks box-office appeal. At the Allianz this week, Thomas Muller, 23, who scored Bayern’s goal in last year’s final against Chelsea, engaged with easy charm.
‘Bayern’s Messi’ was irrepressible in the semi-final defeat of Barcelona. He, in common with 13 members of Bayern and Dortmund’s regular starting XIs, is a product of Germany’s youth system, reformed at high cost after a disastrous Euro 2000 campaign.
‘A decade on, you have far more young, talented Germans who are getting into the team,’ said Muller. ‘We don’t tend to buy older, foreign players. Things really changed and now we have two teams in the Champions League final, that is proof of its success.
'If you can rely on youth development you don’t have to invest so much. There has been a lot of talk about the national team for a long time but now it is the Bundesliga getting the attention.’
English football, awash with Abu Dhabi, Qatari, Russian and US money, has not placed the same onus on developing young players.
Trevor Brooking, the FA’s outgoing director of football development, admitted it needs addressing.
‘English clubs have done pretty well in Europe in recent seasons, but sometimes with only one or two English players,’ he said last week.
‘Long term, we have to get more English players in Premier League first teams on a regular basis. We need 18 to 20-year-olds breaking into our teams, as they do in Germany.’
Work to be done: Outgoing FA director of football developlment admits that English football could do more to develop young players
The Premier League’s Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP), costing several million pounds, is a long-term strategy, similar to the undertaking in Germany a decade ago.
‘After going through a tough time the Germans invested around 50million euros in youth development and look where they are now,’ said Brooking. ‘I’d be disappointed in five years if more English players are not holding their own in our first teams, which hopefully will be reflected in Europe.’
At Dortmund’s Westfalenstadion, the similarly marketable Mario Gotze, 20, is testament to the way Bayern’s opponents also nurture young talent. He is in the uniquely testing position of having already signed for Bayern, who triggered a £32m release clause in his contract, before he opposes his future club.
Big money: Maio Gotze, 20, will move from Dortmund to Bayern in the summer for £32million
Some fans have already disowned him, crossing out Gotze’s name on their replica shirts. He is emblematic of the difficulties Dortmund face in holding on to their best players.
The superior financial muscle of Bayern means they have a stronghold domestically, finishing the season 20 points ahead of Dortmund. They were also rumoured to be in the market to sign Lewandowski — a Manchester United target — although Klopp is ‘confident’ the forward will remain in Dortmund.
While the advance of Bayern, to be coached by Pep Guardiola next season, to the final is no great surprise — they have been in three of the past four — Dortmund are a ‘fairy-tale’ story. Nine years ago, they borrowed money from Bayern and Watzke admits that in 2005 they were on the cusp of going out of business.
New boss: Pep Guardiola will take over from Heynckes in charge at Bayern this summer
He, along with sporting director Michael Zorc and maverick coach Klopp — he took over in 2008 when Dortmund finished three places above the Bundesliga drop-zone — have built them up, in Watzke’s words, ‘from ground zero to Wembley’.
Klopp shrugs off suggestions that an all-German final heralds a power shift in Europe. ‘Bayern Munich are where they should be, in the final,’ he said. ‘They are one of the best, and maybe the best team in the world. The only surprise is Borussia Dortmund being there as well.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... z2TjjgsL8O
By MARTHA KELNER
PUBLISHED: 18th May 2013
English football, awash with Abu Dhabi, Qatari, Russian and US money, has not placed the same onus on developing young players.
The sight of Wembley Way on Saturday, coloured by the red-and-white of Bayern Munich and the yellow-and-black of Borussia Dortmund will not be a particularly welcome one for English football. The national stadium swaying to the beat of German football anthems is not exactly what was envisaged.
Chelsea had designs on defending their Champions League title on home turf but crashed out in the group stages, suffering the ignominy of the earliest exit for holders. Manchester City limped out at the same stage, while Manchester United and Arsenal bowed out in the round of 16.
Nobody saw the double-Deutsch finale coming. But this apparent shift in football’s hierarchy, from the financially manicured English and Spanish leagues to the more grounded, fan-owned Bundesliga is no accident.
Top man: Robert Lewandowski scored four goals against Real Madrid in the semi-final first leg to help Dortmund reach the Champions League final at Wembley
Dortmund chief executive Hans-Joachim Watzke thinks important lessons can be gleaned from the Germans, particularly for those clubs operating as multinational corporations and run on the whim of foreign billionaires.
‘We do not need to telephone Asia or Russia to get our orders,’ said Watzke. ‘We make our own thing. That’s the point of our own philosophy and our power.
'In merchandising and sponsorship, it’s a good situation for us. We must be more creative to make our own way. We must be more native, to make our own culture, to have the same people for a lot of years.’
Seventh heaven: Bayern Munich incredibly beat Barcelona 7-0 on aggregate to reach the final
German football, run by Germans, for Germans. That was the mantra of Bayern and Dortmund as they prepare for Saturday’s first all-German final of Europe’s premier club competition.
Granted, some of the star players are foreign — Holland’s Arjen Robben and France’s Franck Ribery at Munich and the Polish trio at Dortmund, Jakub Błaszczykowski, Łukasz Piszczek and, most notably, Robert Lewandowski, whose four goals stunned Real Madrid in the semi-final. But the core of both teams is homegrown, as are the coaches, Dortmund’s Jurgen Klopp and Bayern’s Jupp Heynckes.
At both clubs, the majority of shares are owned by fans, meaning they remain tied to their communities. A season ticket at Bayern’s architecturally spectacular Allianz Arena costs the equivalent of £101, less than £6 per Bundesliga game. Contrast that with £985 for Arsenal’s cheapest season ticket.
Watzke suggests English fans are treated as cash cows. ‘It’s not good when you treat fans as if they are just customers,’ he said. ‘There is a difference. A fan is a fan with his heart, and from that he gives his money.’
The affordability of tickets means younger and less affluent fans can attend matches. This, argues Watzke, improves the atmosphere in grounds, a view Roy Keane, who famously lambasted United’s corporate ‘prawn sandwich’ brigade would doubtless endorse.
Not that the Bundesliga lacks box-office appeal. At the Allianz this week, Thomas Muller, 23, who scored Bayern’s goal in last year’s final against Chelsea, engaged with easy charm.
‘Bayern’s Messi’ was irrepressible in the semi-final defeat of Barcelona. He, in common with 13 members of Bayern and Dortmund’s regular starting XIs, is a product of Germany’s youth system, reformed at high cost after a disastrous Euro 2000 campaign.
‘A decade on, you have far more young, talented Germans who are getting into the team,’ said Muller. ‘We don’t tend to buy older, foreign players. Things really changed and now we have two teams in the Champions League final, that is proof of its success.
'If you can rely on youth development you don’t have to invest so much. There has been a lot of talk about the national team for a long time but now it is the Bundesliga getting the attention.’
English football, awash with Abu Dhabi, Qatari, Russian and US money, has not placed the same onus on developing young players.
Trevor Brooking, the FA’s outgoing director of football development, admitted it needs addressing.
‘English clubs have done pretty well in Europe in recent seasons, but sometimes with only one or two English players,’ he said last week.
‘Long term, we have to get more English players in Premier League first teams on a regular basis. We need 18 to 20-year-olds breaking into our teams, as they do in Germany.’
Work to be done: Outgoing FA director of football developlment admits that English football could do more to develop young players
The Premier League’s Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP), costing several million pounds, is a long-term strategy, similar to the undertaking in Germany a decade ago.
‘After going through a tough time the Germans invested around 50million euros in youth development and look where they are now,’ said Brooking. ‘I’d be disappointed in five years if more English players are not holding their own in our first teams, which hopefully will be reflected in Europe.’
At Dortmund’s Westfalenstadion, the similarly marketable Mario Gotze, 20, is testament to the way Bayern’s opponents also nurture young talent. He is in the uniquely testing position of having already signed for Bayern, who triggered a £32m release clause in his contract, before he opposes his future club.
Big money: Maio Gotze, 20, will move from Dortmund to Bayern in the summer for £32million
Some fans have already disowned him, crossing out Gotze’s name on their replica shirts. He is emblematic of the difficulties Dortmund face in holding on to their best players.
The superior financial muscle of Bayern means they have a stronghold domestically, finishing the season 20 points ahead of Dortmund. They were also rumoured to be in the market to sign Lewandowski — a Manchester United target — although Klopp is ‘confident’ the forward will remain in Dortmund.
While the advance of Bayern, to be coached by Pep Guardiola next season, to the final is no great surprise — they have been in three of the past four — Dortmund are a ‘fairy-tale’ story. Nine years ago, they borrowed money from Bayern and Watzke admits that in 2005 they were on the cusp of going out of business.
New boss: Pep Guardiola will take over from Heynckes in charge at Bayern this summer
He, along with sporting director Michael Zorc and maverick coach Klopp — he took over in 2008 when Dortmund finished three places above the Bundesliga drop-zone — have built them up, in Watzke’s words, ‘from ground zero to Wembley’.
Klopp shrugs off suggestions that an all-German final heralds a power shift in Europe. ‘Bayern Munich are where they should be, in the final,’ he said. ‘They are one of the best, and maybe the best team in the world. The only surprise is Borussia Dortmund being there as well.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... z2TjjgsL8O
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 11:56 am
The FA could learn so much from german football they treat their fans with respect , low ticket prices and there is rules in place which prevents mega rich taking over the clubs , they have to be partly owned by the fans
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 11:56 am
The FA could learn so much from german football they treat their fans with respect , low ticket prices and there is rules in place which prevents mega rich taking over the clubs , they have to be partly owned by the fans
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 1:09 pm
The German's certainly have a point BUT we need to remember that if it wasn't for that 'foreign' investment then OUR club wouldn't be where it is right now...
Just a point but worth remembering
Just a point but worth remembering
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 1:10 pm
Quote Uli Hoeness (Chairman Bayern):
"We could charge more than £104. Let's say we charged £300. We'd get £2m more in income but what's £2m to us?
In a transfer discussion you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan.
We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk. Football has got to be for everybody. That's the biggest difference between us and England."
compare the 12/13 season tickets (cheapest and highest prices):
PREMIER LEAGUE
Arsenal £985-£1,955
Aston Villa £295-£580 (Earlybird), £325-£595 afterwards
Chelsea £595-£1,250
Everton £399-£597.60 (Earlybird), £443-£672 afterwards
Fulham £399-£597.60 (Earlybird), £499-£959
Liverpool £725-£780
Manchester City £275-£745
Manchester United £532-£950
Newcastle United £373-£717
Norwich City £547-£608
Queens Park Rangers £499-£949
Reading £375-425 (Earlybird), £525-£595
Stoke City £399-£599
Sunderland £425-£525
Swansea City £449-£499
Tottenham Hotspur £730-£1,845
West Bromwich Albion £349-£449
West Ham United £600-£850
Wigan Athletic £255-£350
BUNDESLIGA
Augsburg £274-£469
Bayer Leverkusen £133-£450
Bayern Munich £104-£540
Borussia Dortmund £303-£823
Borussia Monchengladbach £274-£511
Eintracht Frankfurt £267-£635
Fortuna Dusseldorf £212-£574
Freiburg £307-£590
Greuther Furth £258-£407
Hamburg £230-£603
Hannover £75-£278
Hoffenheim £212-£475
Mainz £155-£516
Nuremburg £200-£729
Schalke 04 £303-£735
Stuttgart £145-£607
Werder Bremen £141-£498
Wolfsburg £174-£450
"We could charge more than £104. Let's say we charged £300. We'd get £2m more in income but what's £2m to us?
In a transfer discussion you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan.
We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk. Football has got to be for everybody. That's the biggest difference between us and England."
compare the 12/13 season tickets (cheapest and highest prices):
PREMIER LEAGUE
Arsenal £985-£1,955
Aston Villa £295-£580 (Earlybird), £325-£595 afterwards
Chelsea £595-£1,250
Everton £399-£597.60 (Earlybird), £443-£672 afterwards
Fulham £399-£597.60 (Earlybird), £499-£959
Liverpool £725-£780
Manchester City £275-£745
Manchester United £532-£950
Newcastle United £373-£717
Norwich City £547-£608
Queens Park Rangers £499-£949
Reading £375-425 (Earlybird), £525-£595
Stoke City £399-£599
Sunderland £425-£525
Swansea City £449-£499
Tottenham Hotspur £730-£1,845
West Bromwich Albion £349-£449
West Ham United £600-£850
Wigan Athletic £255-£350
BUNDESLIGA
Augsburg £274-£469
Bayer Leverkusen £133-£450
Bayern Munich £104-£540
Borussia Dortmund £303-£823
Borussia Monchengladbach £274-£511
Eintracht Frankfurt £267-£635
Fortuna Dusseldorf £212-£574
Freiburg £307-£590
Greuther Furth £258-£407
Hamburg £230-£603
Hannover £75-£278
Hoffenheim £212-£475
Mainz £155-£516
Nuremburg £200-£729
Schalke 04 £303-£735
Stuttgart £145-£607
Werder Bremen £141-£498
Wolfsburg £174-£450
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 1:36 pm
Hofmeister wrote:Quote Uli Hoeness (Chairman Bayern):
"We could charge more than £104. Let's say we charged £300. We'd get £2m more in income but what's £2m to us?
In a transfer discussion you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan.
We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk. Football has got to be for everybody. That's the biggest difference between us and England."
Thats what I mean respect
compare the 12/13 season tickets (cheapest and highest prices):
PREMIER LEAGUE
Arsenal £985-£1,955
Aston Villa £295-£580 (Earlybird), £325-£595 afterwards
Chelsea £595-£1,250
Everton £399-£597.60 (Earlybird), £443-£672 afterwards
Fulham £399-£597.60 (Earlybird), £499-£959
Liverpool £725-£780
Manchester City £275-£745
Manchester United £532-£950
Newcastle United £373-£717
Norwich City £547-£608
Queens Park Rangers £499-£949
Reading £375-425 (Earlybird), £525-£595
Stoke City £399-£599
Sunderland £425-£525
Swansea City £449-£499
Tottenham Hotspur £730-£1,845
West Bromwich Albion £349-£449
West Ham United £600-£850
Wigan Athletic £255-£350
BUNDESLIGA
Augsburg £274-£469
Bayer Leverkusen £133-£450
Bayern Munich £104-£540
Borussia Dortmund £303-£823
Borussia Monchengladbach £274-£511
Eintracht Frankfurt £267-£635
Fortuna Dusseldorf £212-£574
Freiburg £307-£590
Greuther Furth £258-£407
Hamburg £230-£603
Hannover £75-£278
Hoffenheim £212-£475
Mainz £155-£516
Nuremburg £200-£729
Schalke 04 £303-£735
Stuttgart £145-£607
Werder Bremen £141-£498
Wolfsburg £174-£450
Can't believe the differences in prices
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 1:45 pm
So 2 German teams make it to the final of the CL?
I say about time as we have had Italian, Spanish and English teams doing the same in recent years. I really don't think there is a power change towards Germany, although I wouldn't be surprised to see Russian and French teams immerge over the next few years.
I say about time as we have had Italian, Spanish and English teams doing the same in recent years. I really don't think there is a power change towards Germany, although I wouldn't be surprised to see Russian and French teams immerge over the next few years.
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 2:23 pm
I dont think European footie will be dominated by ze Germans, either. But one thing is, that the league is financially stable, its affordable to watch games, drink while watching the games, terraces and have a good standard to watch...
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 2:26 pm
Hannover's cheapest ST costs a lil more than a single ticket at Chelsea... Been to Stamford Bridge v Arsenal a few years back, still with Bergkamp and Lehmann playing for the Gunners. Couldnt believe the prices they were asking for...
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 2:35 pm
Nobody saw the double-Deutsch finale coming.
Actually I did which is why I have money on Dortmund winning the thing and will be sodding off on holiday in September if they win the Champions League. Did I expect Bayern or Dortmund to beat Barca and Madrid in the way they did? Not at all and I doubt many others did but I knew Bayern would get there and I believed Dortmund would be the underdogs every Barca, Madrid, Milan, United, etc. fan had to watch out for.
I knew what they were capable of as I watch the Bundesliga more than the Prem. Now Dortmund, bring me my bloody money.
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 4:04 pm
darran1927 wrote:The FA could learn so much from german football they treat their fans with respect , low ticket prices and there is rules in place which prevents mega rich taking over the clubs , they have to be partly owned by the fans
they really could darran.the germans are miles in front of us in all aspects.tbf i have no prob with a all german final in london.the two best teams who deserve their day at wembley.i just feel for the fans who will have a heart attack when they see the rip off prices in the ground
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 6:50 pm
Very interesting. Hasn't the German government wanted to own the Balearic Islands for years?
Re: English football, awash with ' Very good article/read '
Sun May 19, 2013 8:29 pm
The final was always going to happen and I said before it kicked off this season Dortmund would get there.
The talent that is emerging is unreal.
I can't wait to go out Germany soon to visit my relatives maybe going to a few matches.
It is great how much they think of the fans and make the experience brilliant for them.
Also every league game the players go around the stadium like clubs only do for the last home game of the season..
The talent that is emerging is unreal.
I can't wait to go out Germany soon to visit my relatives maybe going to a few matches.
It is great how much they think of the fans and make the experience brilliant for them.
Also every league game the players go around the stadium like clubs only do for the last home game of the season..