Is there a God?

Ohhga I think that is a bit stereotypical to describe that religion is forced on people from birth and quite unfair. We live in a Christian society and it's a part of our communities. Parents have the right to decide if they want their children to be brought up in a religious environment as a child you have no thought on such things and so your parents are responsible for for you. Saying that if it was left till 16 is of course going to see less devotion as they would have no connection to religion. It is always up to the individual if they want to believe in God and if they choose to keep practising the faith it is solely their point no one elses

How is it stereotypical? I never said that it was applicable to all, I said that is is applicable to many. Equally, I disagree that we live in a Christian society, I believe that we live in a fairly agnostic society, and Christianity is of course the most prominent religion.

Of course they are, however the standing of religion must surely be questioned if child indoctrination is required? Nobody, regardless of age, should not be force-fed religious rhetoric without their own consent. Religious primary schools are an interesting subject with regards to this.

You return to my initial point, religious choice, belief, and faith should all be a result of the individual alone, and not external or environmental factors. However, due to many variables, this is simply not the case.

a lot of our laws are based on christianity so the state must still see it as worthwhile as most of the laws have been around a few years.talking of schools.when i was married i /we got my eldest step son into a catholic high school.for me i wanted him to have a christian education and for his mother more the discapline.the lad has sort of gone from non belief to a bit of a belief to non again to a sort of belief.i never ever told him he must believe.glad he went there though.next weekend he flies to sweden with the england handball team.they don,t really play handball that much in the non catholic schools around here.i,m not catholic by the way.pleased and so proud of him.great school who have helped turn out a great young lad.tbf your school seem to have done a good job with you along of course with your parents.i like your zest for life

I hope he does well in whatever he chooses, including handball! There are some really good Catholic schools around though, I live close to one which is fairly popular. I'm not so sure whether I agree with the principal as I seriously dislike Catholicism, however a good education and upbringing is so valuable.

As for me, it's not so much my school (recently ranked 221st out of 225 schools in Wales ) but my Parents, and my own desire to succeed and simply enjoy my life while I can. I really do want to achieve as much as possible, and make the most of any opportunity which is important.

Galeo was classes a heretic by the Vatican purely because he went against the idea that the Earth was the centre of solar system and had calculated that it was rather the Sun was the centre and we revolved around it. The Vatican were against this and placed him under house arrest hoping he would change his mind.

As for religion being forced in the olden days it is because religion made up the backbone of all great civilisations hence if you didn't believe in it you were seen as odd and an outcast. However as science has become more popular religion has had to take a more subdued role

So, are you saying we NEED religion?

No not at all I was just stating why religion has been "forced" all these years. To be honest though I respect religion I would rather we didn't have it

Galeo was classes a heretic by the Vatican purely because he went against the idea that the Earth was the centre of solar system and had calculated that it was rather the Sun was the centre and we revolved around it. The Vatican were against this and placed him under house arrest hoping he would change his mind.

As for religion being forced in the olden days it is because religion made up the backbone of all great civilisations hence if you didn't believe in it you were seen as odd and an outcast. However as science has become more popular religion has had to take a more subdued role

So, are you saying we NEED religion?

No not at all I was just stating why religion has been "forced" all these years. To be honest though I respect religion I would rather we didn't have it

Agreed, religion has caused nothing but problems and many deaths.

Galeo was classes a heretic by the Vatican purely because he went against the idea that the Earth was the centre of solar system and had calculated that it was rather the Sun was the centre and we revolved around it. The Vatican were against this and placed him under house arrest hoping he would change his mind.

As for religion being forced in the olden days it is because religion made up the backbone of all great civilisations hence if you didn't believe in it you were seen as odd and an outcast. However as science has become more popular religion has had to take a more subdued role

So, are you saying we NEED religion?

No not at all I was just stating why religion has been "forced" all these years. To be honest though I respect religion I would rather we didn't have it

Agreed, religion has caused nothing but problems and many deaths.

I don't blame the religion rather the people who brandish the flag of their faith for their own personal gain such as Islamic extrimists and many christians throughout history

We have the technology to access information billions of light years into space.We can discuss the contents of black holes and the constituent elements of the stars.We have identified particles and antiparticles,molecules,atoms,protons,neutrons,quarks,electrons,positrons,photons,mesons and neutrinos.Our understanding of the lwas of nature is greater than even one generation ago.
Peter Atkins (well known atheist) even goes as far to say that "there is nothing that cannot be understood"
This is a remarkably bold statement of faith.There are millons of things we do not understand,including the fundamentals of quantum physics.Having shown that there is absolutely no way in which ,as humans we could ever have an understanding of,for example,other universes that might exist.It seems after all that if everything can be understood,only a God could understand it,so Atkins is commited to theism,but doesn`t realise it.
Albert Einstein, "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior Spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail & feeble minds"
Einstein also said "Everyone who is seriously intersted in the pursuit of science becomes convicted that a Spirit is manifest in the laws of the Univerese a Spirit vastly superior to man,and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble"

Atkins stating that there is nothing we don't understand is crazy we don't even fully understand the human body let alone the universe. I do agree though that we can know everything to a degree somethings are experimentally impossible at the current times or maybe never

Ohhga I think that is a bit stereotypical to describe that religion is forced on people from birth and quite unfair. We live in a Christian society and it's a part of our communities. Parents have the right to decide if they want their children to be brought up in a religious environment as a child you have no thought on such things and so your parents are responsible for for you. Saying that if it was left till 16 is of course going to see less devotion as they would have no connection to religion. It is always up to the individual if they want to believe in God and if they choose to keep practising the faith it is solely their point no one elses

How is it stereotypical? I never said that it was applicable to all, I said that is is applicable to many. Equally, I disagree that we live in a Christian society, I believe that we live in a fairly agnostic society, and Christianity is of course the most prominent religion.

Of course they are, however the standing of religion must surely be questioned if child indoctrination is required? Nobody, regardless of age, should not be force-fed religious rhetoric without their own consent. Religious primary schools are an interesting subject with regards to this.

You return to my initial point, religious choice, belief, and faith should all be a result of the individual alone, and not external or environmental factors. However, due to many variables, this is simply not the case.

a lot of our laws are based on christianity so the state must still see it as worthwhile as most of the laws have been around a few years.talking of schools.when i was married i /we got my eldest step son into a catholic high school.for me i wanted him to have a christian education and for his mother more the discapline.the lad has sort of gone from non belief to a bit of a belief to non again to a sort of belief.i never ever told him he must believe.glad he went there though.next weekend he flies to sweden with the england handball team.they don,t really play handball that much in the non catholic schools around here.i,m not catholic by the way.pleased and so proud of him.great school who have helped turn out a great young lad.tbf your school seem to have done a good job with you along of course with your parents.i like your zest for life

I hope he does well in whatever he chooses, including handball! There are some really good Catholic schools around though, I live close to one which is fairly popular. I'm not so sure whether I agree with the principal as I seriously dislike Catholicism, however a good education and upbringing is so valuable.

As for me, it's not so much my school (recently ranked 221st out of 225 schools in Wales ) but my Parents, and my own desire to succeed and simply enjoy my life while I can. I really do want to achieve as much as possible, and make the most of any opportunity which is important.

tbh ohhga the school always hits a certain level .sometimes other schools beat it but then they dip.so his mother and i went for the consistant one.don,t think they are like the old style catholic schools.glad he is there though.as i say i,m not catholic.thanks for the chat.k.r.o

Lots of knowledge claims here but not a lot of people prepared to back up how they can know anything?

Without God, you can't prove anything.

Can life come from non-life?

Can reason come from non-reason?

Can logic come from non-logic?

Any argument against God needs God to exists for it to work, because either your argument has no logic (and then why should we believe it?) or it has logic in which it's laws can only be accounted for by the existence of a intelligent, universal, unchanging, immaterial God.

Lots of knowledge claims here but not a lot of people prepared to back up how they can know anything?

Without God, you can't prove anything.

Can life come from non-life?

Can reason come from non-reason?

Can logic come from non-logic?

Any argument against God needs God to exists for it to work, because either your argument has no logic (and then why should we believe it?) or it has logic in which it's laws can only be accounted for by the existence of a intelligent, universal, unchanging, immaterial God.

You don't need god to explain anything in the universe except for the beginning of it all. However you can neither disprove or prove God was the cause of it all aswell as that the Big Bang theory. That theory is the most common because it has the moat evidence more than that for god. As for life from more life yes it is possible simply put all we are is a junior of elements correctly aligned to produce life and it all comes down to probability

Well this topic exploded

Lets just tone down the pseudo intellectualism and keep it reasonable.

I heard so many times that so called God is a loving god, well if there is one and I ever get to meet him I will spit in his face, and ask him why or how he could let all them children in Aberfan died the way they did, and how he could lets children of this world suffer as they do now.

Some very interesting thoughts and opinions.

On a football forum! Who'd 'av thunk it?

Some very interesting thoughts and opinions.

On a football forum! Who'd 'av thunk it?

I know! Opinions of a football forum!!

Some very interesting thoughts and opinions.

On a football forum! Who'd 'av thunk it?

I know! Opinions of a football forum!!

At least it beats arguing over the rebranding

Some very interesting thoughts and opinions.

On a football forum! Who'd 'av thunk it?

I know! Opinions of a football forum!!

At least it beats arguing over the rebranding

Couldn't get much worse

Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, to comprehend, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated and the least beneficial.

Faith isnt a sinister thing. I believe faith is extremely improtant in some ways, it provides a rock for people. It can help people overcome grief, rationalise the unknowable and provide a spirtual enlightment. People who truly believe in God I tend to find are generally very happy with their lives and fufilled

I appreciate the reasons why people choose to believe in a deity; however faith is still a sinister concept to me. Surrendering all my questioning, all my desire to learn and to comprehend, simply because of an archaic book seems ludicrous to me. More so considering it was put together by primitive, uncultured, desert dwellers with minimal knowledge. Equally, anything contained within a religious text could be said just as well in a non-religious one. Don't steal, don't kill, don't lie and so on are simple ethical and moral guidelines.

Why is the indoctrination of children required to teach such simple lessons? Telling children, that if they don’t do the right thing, they’ll suffer terrifying punishments or unbelievable rewards, that’s making a living out of lying to children. That’s what the priesthood do. And if all they did was lie to the children, it would be bad enough. But they rape them and torture them and then hope we’ll call it ‘abuse’.

Furthermore, organised religion is sinister as it allows the control of many people. As Hitchens once said, [i]“Everything about Christianity is contained in the pathetic image of 'the flock.” This epitomises my problem with faith and religion, it promotes blind and unquestioning loyalty in a theory without proof. The oligarchs, those at the top, have indefinite power to manipulate and control on the basis of a religious text. A text which was obviously written by some fairly unexceptional humans, however is now widely proclaimed as the 'word of God' to coerce people into belief.

However, as you say, if faith allows people to deal with the simple concept of mortality then so be it. However, I fail to see how it 'rationalises the unknowable'. That seems fairly oxymoronic, can the 'unknowable' (as you put it) ever be rationalised? Even so, as a previous poster has said, religion left him with more questions than he had to begin with. Thus, religion is the basis for a myriad of problems in humanity, yet provides no answers; only more unanswerable questions.

im sorry your having a go at me for 'generalising' athiests and now youve called every priest in my religion a rapist and a pedophile thanks very educated you are.
as for religious doctrine on the does and donts and perceived 'threats' if you do the wrong thing its no different from what a parent will say to their children.
religion is sinister? really how do you work that out a religion will give you a set of rules to adhere to and its up to you to live by those rules, not much different to a government or your job or your family they all create rules you have to live by
as for primitive, uncultured, desert dwelling idiots, apart from living in the desert nothing could be further from the truth, these religions have come from some of the greatest cultures in history who have created the finest architecture, created our mathematic skills, languages, alphabet and our writing techniques which have stood the test of time. Im sorry they werent walking around with ipads 8000, 4000, 2000 years ago but dont confuse the progress of technology with a lack of intelligence.
If you want to be an athiest fine you carry on im not criticising you for it, but im not sure what gives you the right to belittle my religion and my religious beliefs.
Simple fact is if you dont believe in any type of God you give up the right to criticise the details of religion.
If youve chosen not to follow religion because you dont agree with the organisation of religion thats a different story.

Ohhga I think that is a bit stereotypical to describe that religion is forced on people from birth and quite unfair. We live in a Christian society and it's a part of our communities. Parents have the right to decide if they want their children to be brought up in a religious environment as a child you have no thought on such things and so your parents are responsible for for you. Saying that if it was left till 16 is of course going to see less devotion as they would have no connection to religion. It is always up to the individual if they want to believe in God and if they choose to keep practising the faith it is solely their point no one elses

In the olden days, religion WAS forced upon you. If you didn't believe in god and was an atheist, you were essentially a heretic. Galilleo (spelling) as a prime example, I believe he didn't believe in god or any religion, he told the Vatican (?) and they ordered his execution, UNLESS, he believed in god.

Now, I may have that WAY off the mark, however, it's roughly on the same lines.

My point being, over the years religion was forced upon you, but eventually was relaxed a bit more due to "freedom of speech" (which itself is a load of bollocks), however a heck of a lot of people STILL believe in god and I believe it's because the way they teach it to you in school. The way they taught religion to me, was effectively preaching, they pretty much told me God exists and Darwins theory of Evolution is wrong, what's their proof? Oh that's right, some stories in an old book.


Now, I have no problem with religious PEOPLE and I respect their views, however I do have a problem with religion.

Galileo wasnt executed he was excommunicated bit of a difference there, Galileo died of natural causes at the ripe old age of 77

Ohhga I think that is a bit stereotypical to describe that religion is forced on people from birth and quite unfair. We live in a Christian society and it's a part of our communities. Parents have the right to decide if they want their children to be brought up in a religious environment as a child you have no thought on such things and so your parents are responsible for for you. Saying that if it was left till 16 is of course going to see less devotion as they would have no connection to religion. It is always up to the individual if they want to believe in God and if they choose to keep practising the faith it is solely their point no one elses

In the olden days, religion WAS forced upon you. If you didn't believe in god and was an atheist, you were essentially a heretic. Galilleo (spelling) as a prime example, I believe he didn't believe in god or any religion, he told the Vatican (?) and they ordered his execution, UNLESS, he believed in god.

Now, I may have that WAY off the mark, however, it's roughly on the same lines.

My point being, over the years religion was forced upon you, but eventually was relaxed a bit more due to "freedom of speech" (which itself is a load of bollocks), however a heck of a lot of people STILL believe in god and I believe it's because the way they teach it to you in school. The way they taught religion to me, was effectively preaching, they pretty much told me God exists and Darwins theory of Evolution is wrong, what's their proof? Oh that's right, some stories in an old book.


Now, I have no problem with religious PEOPLE and I respect their views, however I do have a problem with religion.

Galileo wasnt executed he was excommunicated bit of a difference there, Galileo died of natural causes at the ripe old age of 77

I didn't say he was executed, I said they threatened him.

im sorry your having a go at me for 'generalising' athiests and now youve called every priest in my religion a rapist and a pedophile thanks very educated you are.
as for religious doctrine on the does and donts and perceived 'threats' if you do the wrong thing its no different from what a parent will say to their children.
religion is sinister? really how do you work that out a religion will give you a set of rules to adhere to and its up to you to live by those rules, not much different to a government or your job or your family they all create rules you have to live by
as for primitive, uncultured, desert dwelling idiots, apart from living in the desert nothing could be further from the truth, these religions have come from some of the greatest cultures in history who have created the finest architecture, created our mathematic skills, languages, alphabet and our writing techniques which have stood the test of time. Im sorry they werent walking around with ipads 8000, 4000, 2000 years ago but dont confuse the progress of technology with a lack of intelligence.
If you want to be an athiest fine you carry on im not criticising you for it, but im not sure what gives you the right to belittle my religion and my religious beliefs.
Simple fact is if you dont believe in any type of God you give up the right to criticise the details of religion.
If youve chosen not to follow religion because you dont agree with the organisation of religion thats a different story.

That is one of the most ridiculous replies I have ever read; although I will respond.

1) I did not 'call every preist in your religion a rapist and a paedophile'. I merely pointed out that it is a worrying occurence in religious organisations and has not been fully dealt with.

2) It's not different to what a parent will tell their child? Don't be ridiculous. I for one will not be telling my children that if they steal, lie or cheat they will suffer for eternity in Hell. Nor will I tell them that they will be rewarded with unimaginable goods if they do no wrong.

3) I believe that surrendering your individuality to blind and unquestioning faith is a sinister prospect. That's how I 'worked that one out'.

4) I'm sorry, but civilisation was simply not cultured and was extremely primitive. Great architecture does not mean they had an apt understanding of their world and universe. Thus, the Bible is archaic and although aspects are pertinent today; it still remains fact that it was produced in an epoch of minimal understanding and knowledge (most notably regarding Science). Which by the way is seperate from intelligence, so it is indeed you who is confusing concepts.

5) I'm not attempting to belittle your beliefs, I'm stating my opinion on the fallacy of orgainised religion. I have said many times that I fully respect individual faith and belief.

6) That is another ignorant statement and typical of the elitist believers. "If you don't believe in a God then you cannot criticise". What tripe, as I have stated previously, you must welcome all perspectives. If only believers could comment then there would be total and utter bias, leading us back into the dark ages of religious rhetoric that no one can refute.

7) Yes, I disagree with the majority of organised religion.

Ohhga I think that is a bit stereotypical to describe that religion is forced on people from birth and quite unfair. We live in a Christian society and it's a part of our communities. Parents have the right to decide if they want their children to be brought up in a religious environment as a child you have no thought on such things and so your parents are responsible for for you. Saying that if it was left till 16 is of course going to see less devotion as they would have no connection to religion. It is always up to the individual if they want to believe in God and if they choose to keep practising the faith it is solely their point no one elses

In the olden days, religion WAS forced upon you. If you didn't believe in god and was an atheist, you were essentially a heretic. Galilleo (spelling) as a prime example, I believe he didn't believe in god or any religion, he told the Vatican (?) and they ordered his execution, UNLESS, he believed in god.

Now, I may have that WAY off the mark, however, it's roughly on the same lines.

My point being, over the years religion was forced upon you, but eventually was relaxed a bit more due to "freedom of speech" (which itself is a load of bollocks), however a heck of a lot of people STILL believe in god and I believe it's because the way they teach it to you in school. The way they taught religion to me, was effectively preaching, they pretty much told me God exists and Darwins theory of Evolution is wrong, what's their proof? Oh that's right, some stories in an old book.


Now, I have no problem with religious PEOPLE and I respect their views, however I do have a problem with religion.

Galileo wasnt executed he was excommunicated bit of a difference there, Galileo died of natural causes at the ripe old age of 77

I didn't say he was executed, I said they threatened him.

well im not sure threatened him is really correct either, a death sentence was the punishment for heresy at the time but death sentences were common back then not just by the church but in common society. whether locking him up for the rest of his life was correct because he was unpopular was correct, but as governments still lock people up on suspicion alone you cant really say we are enlightened.

im sorry your having a go at me for 'generalising' athiests and now youve called every priest in my religion a rapist and a pedophile thanks very educated you are.
as for religious doctrine on the does and donts and perceived 'threats' if you do the wrong thing its no different from what a parent will say to their children.
religion is sinister? really how do you work that out a religion will give you a set of rules to adhere to and its up to you to live by those rules, not much different to a government or your job or your family they all create rules you have to live by
as for primitive, uncultured, desert dwelling idiots, apart from living in the desert nothing could be further from the truth, these religions have come from some of the greatest cultures in history who have created the finest architecture, created our mathematic skills, languages, alphabet and our writing techniques which have stood the test of time. Im sorry they werent walking around with ipads 8000, 4000, 2000 years ago but dont confuse the progress of technology with a lack of intelligence.
If you want to be an athiest fine you carry on im not criticising you for it, but im not sure what gives you the right to belittle my religion and my religious beliefs.
Simple fact is if you dont believe in any type of God you give up the right to criticise the details of religion.
If youve chosen not to follow religion because you dont agree with the organisation of religion thats a different story.

That is one of the most ridiculous replies I have ever read; although I will respond.

1) I did not 'call every preist in your religion a rapist and a paedophile'. I merely pointed out that it is a worrying occurence in religious organisations and has not been fully dealt with.

2) It's not different to what a parent will tell their child? Don't be ridiculous. I for one will not be telling my children that if they steal, lie or cheat they will suffer for eternity in Hell. Nor will I tell them that they will be rewarded with unimaginable goods if they do no wrong.

3) I believe that surrendering your individuality to blind and unquestioning faith is a sinister prospect. That's how I 'worked that one out'.

4) I'm sorry, but civilisation was simply not cultured and was extremely primitive. Great architecture does not mean they had an apt understanding of their world and universe. Thus, the Bible is archaic and although aspects are pertinent today; it still remains fact that it was produced in an epoch of minimal understanding and knowledge (most notably regarding Science). Which by the way is seperate from intelligence, so it is indeed you who is confusing concepts.

5) I'm not attempting to belittle your beliefs, I'm stating my opinion on the fallacy of orgainised religion. I have said many times that I fully respect individual faith and belief.

6) That is another ignorant statement and typical of the elitist believers. "If you don't believe in a God then you cannot criticise". What tripe, as I have stated previously, you must welcome all perspectives. If only believers could comment then there would be total and utter bias, leading us back into the dark ages of religious rhetoric that no one can refute.

7) Yes, I disagree with the majority of organised religion.

1. yes you did you didnt state that point at the time your back tracking an apology would have been more apt

2. its the same theory, if your kid does something wrong you punish them, if they do something right you praise and reward them i dont see a big difference

3. who says faith is blind and unquestioning. am i not allowed to question my religion because im a catholic i think you will find i can and i do, the latest one being gay marriage.

4. dont confuse lack of knowledge with a lack of understanding. these people werent stupid if read scripture on how the world was created i think you will find science agrees with it, though not in 7 days. Though if you go back to ancient Jewish religion you will find that the 7 was more intune with our meaning of infinity. So God created the earth in 6 days and on the 7th He rested whos to say that 7th day has arrived yet.

5. you are belittling my beliefs and you are doing a very good job of it by calling my holy book as archaic and wrong in simpler terms

6. i dont think that statement is ignorant if you dont believe in God why spend so much time trying to prove He doesnt exist.

7. fine no worries but you need to ask yourself a question do you actually believe that there is no God or are you just pissed off with religion

Some very interesting thoughts and opinions.

On a football forum! Who'd 'av thunk it?

.......you certainly have a future as a journalist or marketeer for sure if you want it. Now we've done the religion piece, can we expect to see Politics as a separate thread anytime soon?

As football topics are clearly not being discussed here today, I've just popped over to the the Scientology forum and started a thread called "Operating Thetans - Come And Have A Go If You Think Your Hard Enough". They've taken the bait and I've had three furious replies thus far from the following posters who I believe maybe well known practitioners of this sound religious philosophy:

1. The last time I was this emotional is when my wife found me in the cockpit with my "civil partner" - TheJohnTravolta
2. Me getting to you will certainly be no Mission Impossible - TopGun
3. PM me and we'll arrange a meet you fakking muggy kant - ElRonHubbard

Hang on, the doorbells just rung..........................

1. yes you did you didnt state that point at the time your back tracking an apology would have been more apt

2. its the same theory, if your kid does something wrong you punish them, if they do something right you praise and reward them i dont see a big difference

3. who says faith is blind and unquestioning. am i not allowed to question my religion because im a catholic i think you will find i can and i do, the latest one being gay marriage.

4. dont confuse lack of knowledge with a lack of understanding. these people werent stupid if read scripture on how the world was created i think you will find science agrees with it, though not in 7 days. Though if you go back to ancient Jewish religion you will find that the 7 was more intune with our meaning of infinity. So God created the earth in 6 days and on the 7th He rested whos to say that 7th day has arrived yet.

5. you are belittling my beliefs and you are doing a very good job of it by calling my holy book as archaic and wrong in simpler terms

6. i dont think that statement is ignorant if you dont believe in God why spend so much time trying to prove He doesnt exist.

7. fine no worries but you need to ask yourself a question do you actually believe that there is no God or are you just pissed off with religion

You can't see the difference between a simple and fair punishment, and telling an impressionable child that they will burn in hell? I certainly can.

Many people do follow their faith blindly, perhaps you question it, however many do not. Catholicism angers me with regards to gay marriage, the use of condoms, abortion and so on yet many Catholics (two that I know) try to play down the significane of this.

I'm not suggesting that these people were stupid, why do you keep saying this? I even said it was seperate from intelligence, I'm merely pointing out that the Bible was written in an historical epoch whereby knowledge and understanding was minimal in comparison with recent history; this is indisputible.

Where on earth have I said that the Bible is 'wrong'? Please can you refrain from misconstruing my points. I did however state that the Bible is archaic, of course it is, it's thousands of years old. Everything that is of such a great age can be described as archaic, however you seem unable to accept this fact when it concerns the Bible.

Once again you're misconstruing my points. I cannot disprove the existence of a deity; nobody can, the debate is infinite. I have not spent any time whatsoever attempting to do this. What I have been doing is giving my reasons against orgainised religion and why I believe it is harmful to society. These are very different things.

I sincerely believe that there is no God. I believe that the deity theory spawned from the mind of early-humanity (religion is man-made of course) and has consequently been used as a method for comfort, rationalisation and escapism for millions of people ever since;which I must admit is a fascinating thought. I also dislike (to say the least) organised religion for many aforementioned reasons.

Ohhga I think that is a bit stereotypical to describe that religion is forced on people from birth and quite unfair. We live in a Christian society and it's a part of our communities. Parents have the right to decide if they want their children to be brought up in a religious environment as a child you have no thought on such things and so your parents are responsible for for you. Saying that if it was left till 16 is of course going to see less devotion as they would have no connection to religion. It is always up to the individual if they want to believe in God and if they choose to keep practising the faith it is solely their point no one elses

In the olden days, religion WAS forced upon you. If you didn't believe in god and was an atheist, you were essentially a heretic. Galilleo (spelling) as a prime example, I believe he didn't believe in god or any religion, he told the Vatican (?) and they ordered his execution, UNLESS, he believed in god.

Now, I may have that WAY off the mark, however, it's roughly on the same lines.

My point being, over the years religion was forced upon you, but eventually was relaxed a bit more due to "freedom of speech" (which itself is a load of bollocks), however a heck of a lot of people STILL believe in god and I believe it's because the way they teach it to you in school. The way they taught religion to me, was effectively preaching, they pretty much told me God exists and Darwins theory of Evolution is wrong, what's their proof? Oh that's right, some stories in an old book.


Now, I have no problem with religious PEOPLE and I respect their views, however I do have a problem with religion.

Galileo wasnt executed he was excommunicated bit of a difference there, Galileo died of natural causes at the ripe old age of 77

I didn't say he was executed, I said they threatened him.

well im not sure threatened him is really correct either, a death sentence was the punishment for heresy at the time but death sentences were common back then not just by the church but in common society. whether locking him up for the rest of his life was correct because he was unpopular was correct, but as governments still lock people up on suspicion alone you cant really say we are enlightened.

You've confused me, where did I say we are enlightened?

I' d rayher eat my own shit than believe in religeon. fairy tales for adults as far as i'm concerned.

1. yes you did you didnt state that point at the time your back tracking an apology would have been more apt

2. its the same theory, if your kid does something wrong you punish them, if they do something right you praise and reward them i dont see a big difference

3. who says faith is blind and unquestioning. am i not allowed to question my religion because im a catholic i think you will find i can and i do, the latest one being gay marriage.

4. dont confuse lack of knowledge with a lack of understanding. these people werent stupid if read scripture on how the world was created i think you will find science agrees with it, though not in 7 days. Though if you go back to ancient Jewish religion you will find that the 7 was more intune with our meaning of infinity. So God created the earth in 6 days and on the 7th He rested whos to say that 7th day has arrived yet.

5. you are belittling my beliefs and you are doing a very good job of it by calling my holy book as archaic and wrong in simpler terms

6. i dont think that statement is ignorant if you dont believe in God why spend so much time trying to prove He doesnt exist.

7. fine no worries but you need to ask yourself a question do you actually believe that there is no God or are you just pissed off with religion

You can't see the difference between a simple and fair punishment, and telling an impressionable child that they will burn in hell? I certainly can.

Many people do follow their faith blindly, perhaps you question it, however many do not. Catholicism angers me with regards to gay marriage, the use of condoms, abortion and so on yet many Catholics (two that I know) try to play down the significane of this.

I'm not suggesting that these people were stupid, why do you keep saying this? I even said it was seperate from intelligence, I'm merely pointing out that the Bible was written in an historical epoch whereby knowledge and understanding was minimal in comparison with recent history; this is indisputible.

Where on earth have I said that the Bible is 'wrong'? Please can you refrain from misconstruing my points. I did however state that the Bible is archaic, of course it is, it's thousands of years old. Everything that is of such a great age can be described as archaic, however you seem unable to accept this fact when it concerns the Bible.

Once again you're misconstruing my points. I cannot disprove the existence of a deity; nobody can, the debate is infinite. I have not spent any time whatsoever attempting to do this. What I have been doing is giving my reasons against orgainised religion and why I believe it is harmful to society. These are very different things.

I sincerely believe that there is no God. I believe that the deity theory spawned from the mind of early-humanity (religion is man-made of course) and has consequently been used as a method for comfort, rationalisation and escapism for millions of people ever since;which I must admit is a fascinating thought. I also dislike (to say the least) organised religion for many aforementioned reasons.

no not really its how you bring up your child, most things kids do wrong are of no real consequence but you have to install a level of morality and a vision of right and wrong. Hell is described as a scary place where you will be punished for a life time of wrong doings. Put it into context when I was a kid and I did something wrong my mum used to threaten me with the back of her hand or her slipper. Now if she said it to me now id probably laugh but when when I was very young that was a very scary prospect, but even now as it was when I was a child going to hell is a very prospect so I try to live my life as best I can. You do however miss out one huge side of this argument and thats forgiveness of sin and the idea of your slate being wiped clean so to speak. Most of the sacraments are based on forgiveness.

why does the catholic church do to anger you? and why dont you include other christian denominations. The Catholic church takes the blame of a lot failings in the christian church but they are not always to blame.
if you look at Gay marriage, its not the catholic church who are so against it with some pretty poor arguments you might want to look at the anglicans for that. As far as im concerned God created every individual if your gay your gay if your straight your straight. The Catholic church has the same opinion the same rules apply to every individual and gay people are not discriminated against. Marriage is a holy sacrament and prepares a couple to raise a family. Gay people cant do this not because they are emotionally incapable of raising a family its because they biologically cant produce children. As for civil marriage personally I dont see the difference between marriage and a civil partnership but if they want to call it marriage go for it doesnt bother me in the slightest.
Condoms, well if the church allows the use of condoms they might as well throw away their beliefs out of the window. Sex is for the procreation of children if you allow contraceptives your giving sex a whole other meaning.
Abortion, well its a living human being I dont see why we should justify murder because in the majority of cases being pregnant is inconvenient or something I discovered the other day the wrong sex. Why is having a boy more inconvenient to having a girl?
You are saying the bible is wrong when you keep saying its archaic and old. Though ill remind you the book will always remain but the way its interpreted is continually changing and is revised on many occasions.
You cant keep saying that people had limited knowledge and understanding they understood the world as it was. Even with technological and scientific advancements, the same questions remain who are we and where did we come from, the base questions still havent been answered today as they couldnt be answered thousands of years ago.

Yes religion is man-made but faith isnt. Why do people blame something when there isnt anyone to blame, or who are you asking for help when no one can help you. Who are you talking to when you ask why me? when something goes wrong, surely thats just the luck of the draw. Who are you asking for help when you enter an exam or a war-zone or a difficult situation and you utter those words to yourself i need help to get through this. Whether you rationalise faith as being an intervention from God to get you through things or just the belief in your own ability to get the job done faith is real and its the basis of every religion in the world.

Ohhga I think that is a bit stereotypical to describe that religion is forced on people from birth and quite unfair. We live in a Christian society and it's a part of our communities. Parents have the right to decide if they want their children to be brought up in a religious environment as a child you have no thought on such things and so your parents are responsible for for you. Saying that if it was left till 16 is of course going to see less devotion as they would have no connection to religion. It is always up to the individual if they want to believe in God and if they choose to keep practising the faith it is solely their point no one elses

In the olden days, religion WAS forced upon you. If you didn't believe in god and was an atheist, you were essentially a heretic. Galilleo (spelling) as a prime example, I believe he didn't believe in god or any religion, he told the Vatican (?) and they ordered his execution, UNLESS, he believed in god.

Now, I may have that WAY off the mark, however, it's roughly on the same lines.

My point being, over the years religion was forced upon you, but eventually was relaxed a bit more due to "freedom of speech" (which itself is a load of bollocks), however a heck of a lot of people STILL believe in god and I believe it's because the way they teach it to you in school. The way they taught religion to me, was effectively preaching, they pretty much told me God exists and Darwins theory of Evolution is wrong, what's their proof? Oh that's right, some stories in an old book.


Now, I have no problem with religious PEOPLE and I respect their views, however I do have a problem with religion.

Galileo wasnt executed he was excommunicated bit of a difference there, Galileo died of natural causes at the ripe old age of 77

I didn't say he was executed, I said they threatened him.

well im not sure threatened him is really correct either, a death sentence was the punishment for heresy at the time but death sentences were common back then not just by the church but in common society. whether locking him up for the rest of his life was correct because he was unpopular was correct, but as governments still lock people up on suspicion alone you cant really say we are enlightened.

You've confused me, where did I say we are enlightened?

you didnt I did

Lots of knowledge claims here but not a lot of people prepared to back up how they can know anything?

Without God, you can't prove anything.

Can life come from non-life?

Can reason come from non-reason?

Can logic come from non-logic?

Any argument against God needs God to exists for it to work, because either your argument has no logic (and then why should we believe it?) or it has logic in which it's laws can only be accounted for by the existence of a intelligent, universal, unchanging, immaterial God.

You don't need god to explain anything in the universe except for the beginning of it all. However you can neither disprove or prove God was the cause of it all aswell as that the Big Bang theory. That theory is the most common because it has the moat evidence more than that for god. As for life from more life yes it is possible simply put all we are is a junior of elements correctly aligned to produce life and it all comes down to probability

You do realise the probability of that is so ridiculous that no serious scientist would ever assume it could happen. It's akin to shooting a dart at the moon, hitting it and then the dart coming back and landing on an 'x' you have placed on earth!

How do you know that you don't need God to explain anything in the universe except for the beginning of it all? If you're going to make knowledge claims, please show how you account for your knowledge!

no not really its how you bring up your child, most things kids do wrong are of no real consequence but you have to install a level of morality and a vision of right and wrong. Hell is described as a scary place where you will be punished for a life time of wrong doings. Put it into context when I was a kid and I did something wrong my mum used to threaten me with the back of her hand or her slipper. Now if she said it to me now id probably laugh but when when I was very young that was a very scary prospect, but even now as it was when I was a child going to hell is a very prospect so I try to live my life as best I can. You do however miss out one huge side of this argument and thats forgiveness of sin and the idea of your slate being wiped clean so to speak. Most of the sacraments are based on forgiveness.

why does the catholic church do to anger you? and why dont you include other christian denominations. The Catholic church takes the blame of a lot failings in the christian church but they are not always to blame.
if you look at Gay marriage, its not the catholic church who are so against it with some pretty poor arguments you might want to look at the anglicans for that. As far as im concerned God created every individual if your gay your gay if your straight your straight. The Catholic church has the same opinion the same rules apply to every individual and gay people are not discriminated against. Marriage is a holy sacrament and prepares a couple to raise a family. Gay people cant do this not because they are emotionally incapable of raising a family its because they biologically cant produce children. As for civil marriage personally I dont see the difference between marriage and a civil partnership but if they want to call it marriage go for it doesnt bother me in the slightest.
Condoms, well if the church allows the use of condoms they might as well throw away their beliefs out of the window. Sex is for the procreation of children if you allow contraceptives your giving sex a whole other meaning.
Abortion, well its a living human being I dont see why we should justify murder because in the majority of cases being pregnant is inconvenient or something I discovered the other day the wrong sex. Why is having a boy more inconvenient to having a girl?
You are saying the bible is wrong when you keep saying its archaic and old. Though ill remind you the book will always remain but the way its interpreted is continually changing and is revised on many occasions.
You cant keep saying that people had limited knowledge and understanding they understood the world as it was. Even with technological and scientific advancements, the same questions remain who are we and where did we come from, the base questions still havent been answered today as they couldnt be answered thousands of years ago.

Yes religion is man-made but faith isnt. Why do people blame something when there isnt anyone to blame, or who are you asking for help when no one can help you. Who are you talking to when you ask why me? when something goes wrong, surely thats just the luck of the draw. Who are you asking for help when you enter an exam or a war-zone or a difficult situation and you utter those words to yourself i need help to get through this. Whether you rationalise faith as being an intervention from God to get you through things or just the belief in your own ability to get the job done faith is real and its the basis of every religion in the world.

You must surely be able to differentiate between the 'back of a slipper', and the constant fear of eternal and nightmarish torture? More so from a child's perspective? How you can compare the two is beyond me, and only goes to prove how religion turns honest and fair people into repugnant and immoral beings. Threatening an impressionable child with such hideous images cannot be justified, and I simply will not accept the excuse of 'well I believe it'. That's fine and is not my concern, but there is no need to scare and frighten young children, none whatsoever.

Also, can you stop miscontruing what I am saying? It's wholly infuriating. Stating that something is old (correct) and archaic (correct) is not the same as saying it is wrong.

Oh be realistic, of course they had a limited understanding of the world around them, the people of BC knew a tiny fraction of what we do today and almost every scientific claim from that epoch has been disproven. You claim that the question of where we came from has not been answered, however the question was answered for many with the publication of 'On the Origin of Species' and has been further answered through greater scientific understanding and advancements.

With regards to abortion, condoning it (as I do) does not mean I condone China's one-child policy as you seem to be implying. What nonsense. If my partner was pregnant, we would be first in line for an abortion as having a child is simply not a possibility at present. However we find contraception to be more effective, a subject I will later discuss. Either way, who are the Catholic church to dictate whether abortions are just? How many Popes, Priests, Arch-bishops or Bishops will ever require an abortion? The opinion of Catholics on is of no value.

So you ask, why does the Catholic church anger me? Let me tell you.

I must clarify something beforehand, I have no issue with personal devotion and faith. This is fine, understandable, and a basic right of which every human must always be allowed. This is not, in any way, an attack on the individual.

The Catholic church holds responsibility for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people; most notably in South America. Furthermore, Catholicism has blood on its hands from the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race; in which the Catholic church remained all too quiet during Hitler's 'Final solution' (Anti-Semitism was preached as an official doctrine of the Church until 1964; simply grotesque).

How many people were burned and tortured in this country as a result of Catholicism? Individuals were actually killed, maimed and tortured for owning a Bible in their own language, English. Ludicrous. Well, you might say, that was a long time ago. I presume you've heard of Thomas Moore, one of the principal burners responsible for the deaths of those who dared to own an English Bible. Only last century he was made a Saint by the Catholic Church and it was only in the year 2000 that the Pope made him the Patron Saint of Politicians. This is a man who tortured and burnt those who simply wanted to read the Bible in English.

It doesn't end there, there are smaller but equally deplorable examples of monstrosity in both the past and present records of Catholicism. Firstly, the institutionalisation of the rape, the torture and the maltreatment of many children across the globe is both odious and inexcusable. These include orphans in Church run schools in almost every country on earth, from Ireland to Australia, and such heinous crimes continue to occur on a regular basis today.

What about Rwanda? The most Catholic country in Africa. Here, Catholic Priests, Nuns and Bishops are on trial for inciting the massacre of their fellow people through pulpits, churches as well as media such as radio and newspapers. Staying with the African theme, the Catholic church were happy to declare that AIDS is a terrible disease, which it obviously is. However in their eyes it's not quite as bad as condoms and contraceptives, which are in some form more immoral then the disease they prevent. It is for this reason that the rhetoric of the Catholic church is directly responsible for the deaths of millions across the continent.

Of course, in your eyes, condoms would give intercourse 'a 'whole other meaning'. What, such as pleasure? Dolphins have intercourse for pleasure my friend, as humans have done for centuries. It is a primary impulse and perfectly healthy, yet the Cathlolic church is unwilling to accept this basic fact. Insisting instead to stubbornly scorn the use of contraceptives, as sexual intercourse for pleasure and love is evidently more immoral than the mass genocide of millions of Africans. So much so, that the Pope actually spreads the lie, the shameful lie, that condoms actually increase the likelihood of AIDS and HIV. The Catholic church should not only feel utterly ashamed, but should issue a direct apology and plea for forgiveness.

I find it shocking that you try to defer the discrimination of homosexuals from the Catholic church; which is of course the main perpetrator. Your church has condemned homosexuals for centuries, suggesting that they cannot and will not join, that they will not go to heaven, that they have sinned from birth because of who and what they are. The Catholic church branded and I quote, homosexuals as "disordered and morally evil individuals". This is inhuman, morally repugnant and disgraceful and your Church should feel utterly ashamed once again.

Even the the twisted, the neurotic and hysterical ways that the leaders of the Catholic church are chosen. The cellabacy, the nuns, the preisthood, it is quite simply not natural in the 21st century, not at all. Then we move on to the vulgar wealth, the disgusting hierachy of Bishops and Arch-Bishops, the possession of the money and treasures from the countries that they once raped and violated are all symbolic of the oligarchic form of the Catholic church.

This is why the Catholic church angers me, this is why I have zero respect for it as an institution, and this is why it should feel totally and utterly ashamed.

There's bloody loads of the buggers... old religion for me.