Welsh Independence?

Everyone knows public spending would solve the problem - but no one has been able to come up with an idea how to generate the money.

And you are not talking about the UK. You are talking about tiny Wales without the back up of the city of London. Someone already point out Greece, but you dissmissed that for reasons you didn't make clear.

I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about GDP? You said giving all that money to the banks was a waste and I simple pointed out that the British economy is based around the banking/service industry.

Again, you wanted to take away the focus point of our economy and still borrow money for huge public spending?

There is a great video on YouTube with this past Nobel economic winners being taken to school on their views on the current economic problems.

What about joining the EU?

Hooray at last. You recognise that public spending would solve the problem.

No it wasn't clear you were talking about GDP and that has little to do with the overall discussion anyway. You must be a proud banker or something If you wanted to invest over 100 BILLION pounds in a sector to create jobs it certainly wouldn't be banking. Manufacturing and construction would be far better. As it was the government probably had no choice but to do it because the bankers fucked it up so badly the whole economy would have collapsed if they weren't bailed out by public money. In that sense it was a huge waste of money...covering for a f**k up.

The City of London which you mention as some sort of powerhouse, and the banking sector in particular, is primarily responsible for f*cking up the country.

Just because Wales is small doesn't mean that we wouldn't thrive. Big does not mean better.

Look, I'm in the camp which believes that Wales should try and make our own way in the world. Being tied economically to england has failed us badly. Many people are either too scared to try it or don't even care to think about such matters (probably the majority sadly) or don't have faith/pride in their fellow Welshmen/women. Not sure which category you come into but hey...it's been nice having a chat.

Everyone knows that high public spending works.

Nazi Germany became a power house on the back of it.

The US spent it's way out of a economic melt down during WW II

But what you have failed to do is answer where the money is going to come from.

Failed to answer if you see Wales as a member of the EU.

Yes, the banking sector is the reason we are where we are.

BUT the banking sector was also the reason behind the boom years.

How has it failed us badly? Do you have a low standard of living?

We get more from London that what we pay in.

How has it failed us badly? Do you have a low standard of living?

We get more from London that what we pay in.

Failed us because we are top (or near top) of most of the poverty leagues.

We may get more than we pay in. Personally I don't like that. I would much rather have a go at doing it our way. If we fail we fail but where's the pride in living off another? If you are ok with that there's where we differ and probably always will. Also, I think there's a good chance that if we are in a sink or swim situation we would swim. At the moment we are sinking because we have our hands tied behind our backs. Devolution is a joke. No real teeth to affect the situation. We can only tweak things around the edge and that is not enough to make a difference. Almost like we've been set up to fail. We are in opposite camps buddy. Just respect the difference.

Let's hope we have a good season down the City.

Everyone knows that high public spending works.

Nazi Germany became a power house on the back of it.

The US spent it's way out of a economic melt down during WW II

But what you have failed to do is answer where the money is going to come from.

Failed to answer if you see Wales as a member of the EU.

Where did the government get the £100 billion+ to bail out the banks? It can be done....like the examples you give above.

Wales in the EU? I guess we are by default as part of the uk. If we became independent I don't see that changing.

Yes, the banking sector is the reason we are where we are.

BUT the banking sector was also the reason behind the boom years.

Boom...Bust !! not a great way to run an economy.

Everyone knows that high public spending works.

Nazi Germany became a power house on the back of it.

The US spent it's way out of a economic melt down during WW II

But what you have failed to do is answer where the money is going to come from.

Failed to answer if you see Wales as a member of the EU.

Where did the government get the £100 billion+ to bail out the banks? It can be done....like the examples you give above.

Wales in the EU? I guess we are by default as part of the uk. If we became independent I don't see that changing.

We would have to apply and I guess you have not been following the news and the plans Germany want to bring in would stop the high debt public spending you are talking about.

Poverty is a sense compared to other leading and developed nations. We don't have anything like the poverty seen in Romania. Since Romania has joined the EU, poverty has been redefeind - we get less money.

So, where does that leave us? No money from the city of London. Less money from the EU.

You claim we are in poverty. Well guess what, buddy! Now we are! What do you do with a lot less tax revenue? Tax the people of Wales more?

But why do you keep bringing up the money the Labour Govt spent that wiped the UK out?

Why would an independent Wales have access to that type of money?

my view as a englishman is this.i feel english and british and don,t want to break up the union.i accept their are diff cultures within the uk that have been here for hundreds of yesars and have no probs with that.england has diff cultures inside her borders but we don,t have to spilt for them to be carried on.the independence issue is interesting.i,v yet to hear ONE nationaolist from wales or scotland say they,d like to break away but not be linked to the e.u.why is that?is it because if it goes bozz eyed then instead of england bailing the mess wales and scotland would be bailed out by brussels?in reality the e.u would be handing over english tax payers money (as they do now in some cases0rather than london doing it.hardly standing on your own two feet is it?what a lot of nationalists in wales and scotland don,t take on board because of the insular thinking they have is a shift in some english peoples thinking about the independence issue.a growing number of english are getting sick to death of the sniping and anti english retoric and would be quite happy for wales and scotland to break away.in fact there are english stirrings for an independent england.if that grows then it might not be the choice of wales and scotland to make.imagine it.every time you went to watch cardiff away you,d be taxed to enter england and to leave.all your exports would be taxed to death if they left through england.this isn,t pie in the sky as england would/could be run by right wing tories .do you think they would miss a chance to make a mint?like i said at the top of this im british so i want us to stay together but independence is something i,d urge any welshman to think long and hard about.considering there are people in north wales who have little time for south walians .once it,s done and if england florishes then i can,t see any english people wanting to reverse it if wales or scotland go down the tubes.

The only way Wales 'could've work is if you cut the benefit handouts immensely. However because of the deep routed socialist ideology which is in much of the Welsh population then it has no chance.

As the old political saying goes 'it easier to throw stones than take full responsibility'.

I disagree that there's a "deep-rooted socialist ideology" in Wales. It's just that people don't want to be raped by the right again like they were by Thatcher, so understandably they have drifted towards the left. This, combined with the larger proportion of working-class voters, explains alot.

"working class" ?? not enough of them in Wales. Too many living off benefits and too high proportion of public service (non productive) employees.

We need private sector businesses and skilled production/manufacturing jobs, none of which are encouraged here (look at the WAG talking shop who have no idea of business or how to attract it). Too many people unfit to work (fat slobs and chavs plus badly educated).

Welsh politicians like to blame Tories, Margaret Thatcher etc (but remember we have had socialism running Wales for 100 years, and we are still a poor badly run region of Europe) but when they have a chance to do something about it they are clueless. All ideology,pandering to the people but not a clue of how to create wealth and jobs (apart for themselves of course eg: Kinnocks,Tango man from Neath).

If you all think times are hard now,just wait till Greece goes tits up followed by Spain-make what were going through now seem like a garden party.And I shudder to think what will happen if the Irish don't get their act together.

my view as a englishman is this.i feel english and british and don,t want to break up the union.i accept their are diff cultures within the uk that have been here for hundreds of yesars and have no probs with that.england has diff cultures inside her borders but we don,t have to spilt for them to be carried on.the independence issue is interesting.i,v yet to hear ONE nationaolist from wales or scotland say they,d like to break away but not be linked to the e.u.why is that?is it because if it goes bozz eyed then instead of england bailing the mess wales and scotland would be bailed out by brussels?in reality the e.u would be handing over english tax payers money (as they do now in some cases0rather than london doing it.hardly standing on your own two feet is it?what a lot of nationalists in wales and scotland don,t take on board because of the insular thinking they have is a shift in some english peoples thinking about the independence issue.a growing number of english are getting sick to death of the sniping and anti english retoric and would be quite happy for wales and scotland to break away.in fact there are english stirrings for an independent england.if that grows then it might not be the choice of wales and scotland to make.imagine it.every time you went to watch cardiff away you,d be taxed to enter england and to leave.all your exports would be taxed to death if they left through england.this isn,t pie in the sky as england would/could be run by right wing tories .do you think they would miss a chance to make a mint?like i said at the top of this im british so i want us to stay together but independence is something i,d urge any welshman to think long and hard about.considering there are people in north wales who have little time for south walians .once it,s done and if england florishes then i can,t see any english people wanting to reverse it if wales or scotland go down the tubes.

Spot on. Careful what you (we ) wish for, is a statement that is very apt here.

If you all think times are hard now,just wait till Greece goes tits up followed by Spain-make what were going through now seem like a garden party.And I shudder to think what will happen if the Irish don't get their act together.

Just been there. They are in a bad way. Could (probably will ) impact very badly on us.
But many of their problems were self inflicted. Socialist ideology. Spend spend spend governments on public services/servants. Tax evasion (by everyone, top to bottom). Building houses and airports (in Spain) with no control and thought of who would buy/use them.
The bureacracy is unbelievable - so many pen pushers and forms is beyond a joke. Try getting work or projects going is almost impossible with so many public servants to negotiate with.

Many businessmen pulling out and moving businesses (and jobs) abroad.

Batten down the hatches in the UK. Could be flooded with immigrants moving here (benefit system). Also will no doubt be bullied into helping to bail out these countries.

If you all think times are hard now,just wait till Greece goes tits up followed by Spain-make what were going through now seem like a garden party.And I shudder to think what will happen if the Irish don't get their act together.

Just been there. They are in a bad way. Could (probably will ) impact very badly on us.
But many of their problems were self inflicted. Socialist ideology. Spend spend spend governments on public services/servants. Tax evasion (by everyone, top to bottom). Building houses and airports (in Spain) with no control and thought of who would buy/use them.
The bureacracy is unbelievable - so many pen pushers and forms is beyond a joke. Try getting work or projects going is almost impossible with so many public servants to negotiate with.

Many businessmen pulling out and moving businesses (and jobs) abroad.

Batten down the hatches in the UK. Could be flooded with immigrants moving here (benefit system). Also will no doubt be bullied into helping to bail out these countries.

as a nation the uk has been earning a pound and spending one pound fifty.something was always going to give.abroad it,s worse.i don,t have a problem with big spending on say clean coal technolegy as it would provide many jobs and fuel for our long term needs.i have a problem with the non jobs created by both governments in an attempt to buy votes.we need to get our heads out of the sand and look 24 years ahead not 4years..this country has become a haven for dodgy ,greedy bankers and work shy shysters.in the middle are the working class getting squeezed to death.still as it,s been said it,s a tea party to what other e.u are going through or will be .

Firstly, I completely understand the redundancy of posting on a forum and then buggering off. I apologise. I can't lie, I dont have a strong opinion on the subject. To me it will always be a romantic pipe dream. I used a lot of your opinions to help write an article which arose from from an English mate of mine saying that 'the Welsh are too thick to run their own affairs' However, I completely accept the mundane responses of 'what is the point' and 'we will always be stronger within the union'. I accept these responses because they are true.

Anyways...

Why the hell would we want to be independent, we are all citizens of Great Britain so be proud of that, otherwise you may have been living in a country like Syria and look whats happening to those poor people, we are lucky to be living in a democratic society that was fought for by our fore fathers against Nazi tirany

Oh god not this again

All plaid cymru voters are Nazis.