Welsh Independence?

And do you promise you didn't use Google?

I must admit I'm not a fan.

She has nothing on Alex Salmond and I can't see Plaid making gains under her.

Are you a fan?

I didn't use google, as it was on the BBC Wales as soon as she became leader. Sorry for the delayed response just finished my Sunday dinner.

I'm not anti-british so no, I'm not a fan.

But as someone else stated the pro independence don't want to be run by Westminster they want to be run by Brussels. No thank you you can shove the euro up your rectum. And how would the Welsh be running Wales when Brussels would be running it. The lunatics (PLAID) would let the other lunatics run the asylum

But as someone else stated the pro independence don't want to be run by Westminster they want to be run by Brussels. No thank you you can shove the euro up your rectum. And how would the Welsh be running Wales when Brussels would be running it. The lunatics (PLAID) would let the other lunatics run the asylum

Agreed constable!!!

Austerity.

But as someone else stated the pro independence don't want to be run by Westminster they want to be run by Brussels. No thank you you can shove the euro up your rectum. And how would the Welsh be running Wales when Brussels would be running it. The lunatics (PLAID) would let the other lunatics run the asylum

This is a point most miss.

Hate the cut backs? Well, Germany and the EU was to make that the norm! They want to make public spending that leads to debt against the law!!!!

High public spending is key to Plaid.

Is it actually possible. My automatic feeling has always been 'no'. But why? The general opinion is that we could not support ourselves. Our fathers were too stupid, we are too stupid and our sons and daughters will be too stupid. We need to go begging to the English in order to survive. But is this true?

http://cambriapolitico.com/is-wales-eco ... ly-viable/

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-pr ... 11083.html

I am still undecided. But for those against, please offer something other than the usual drivel. Diolch yn fawr

U

Of course it's possible. We just lack confidence after hundreds of years of english rule and being brain-washed to think that we are not capable. We would get by no problem at all because we wouldn't be bogWged down by class warfare (because we're all working class in Wales) and because we'd work hard to make a success of things and because of self-esteem and pride in our own country

What utter bollicks fella. Around here in the Valleys is a considerable amount who will not work because they are to Fooking lazy to get of there arses and work. Take your rose tinted glasses off and jump into the real world of benefits.
Just because someone is Welsh does not mean they know how to run a Fooking Country. Is there any real difference between ordinary folk of England Scotland Ireland or Wales ? No there Fooking isn't each country has there fair share of scroungers layabouts, hard working people, and proud of there heratage .
Give this country to Plaid and we will be a third world nation, they are backward and anti progress IMO

Being joined at the hip economically to england has been so, so good to us over the last few hundred years hasn't it? It's you who is talking bollocks. And it's because of people with your attitude, who have no self esteem, who are happy to sponge off the english, who are content with being dictated to by a much larger, neighbouring country that Wales will always struggle to be economically successful. Where else in the world, outside of these shores, will you see a country content to be dictated to by another country, without the courage and pride to at least try and stand on their own two feet? It's quite beyond belief that you think if we had independence we would become a third world country....staggering. Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them. Also I didn't say that just because people are Welsh means that they know how to run a country......but why wouldn't they? And why would the english be be able to do it any better? They can hardly run their own country so why would they care about a neighbouring country if it's going tits up in their own green and pleasant land? Have a bit more faith in yourself and your fellow Welshmen and stop doing us down. That's the real problem....BELIEF. If you think that I'm wearing rose tinted glasses yours are covered in shit, which at least explains why you see things so pessimistically. But all the best anyway...at least you are a City fan

So the world's 6th biggest economie in the world has no idea what it's doing?

And we don't sit back and let the English tell us what to do.

Like the English we get a vote in general elections.

I love to hear about the creation of jobs. I'm sure that high tax policy of Plaid will have them running and swiming here.

Is it actually possible. My automatic feeling has always been 'no'. But why? The general opinion is that we could not support ourselves. Our fathers were too stupid, we are too stupid and our sons and daughters will be too stupid. We need to go begging to the English in order to survive. But is this true?

http://cambriapolitico.com/is-wales-eco ... ly-viable/

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-pr ... 11083.html

I am still undecided. But for those against, please offer something other than the usual drivel. Diolch yn fawr

U

Of course it's possible. We just lack confidence after hundreds of years of english rule and being brain-washed to think that we are not capable. We would get by no problem at all because we wouldn't be bogWged down by class warfare (because we're all working class in Wales) and because we'd work hard to make a success of things and because of self-esteem and pride in our own country

What utter bollicks fella. Around here in the Valleys is a considerable amount who will not work because they are to Fooking lazy to get of there arses and work. Take your rose tinted glasses off and jump into the real world of benefits.
Just because someone is Welsh does not mean they know how to run a Fooking Country. Is there any real difference between ordinary folk of England Scotland Ireland or Wales ? No there Fooking isn't each country has there fair share of scroungers layabouts, hard working people, and proud of there heratage .
Give this country to Plaid and we will be a third world nation, they are backward and anti progress IMO

Being joined at the hip economically to england has been so, so good to us over the last few hundred years hasn't it? It's you who is talking bollocks. And it's because of people with your attitude, who have no self esteem, who are happy to sponge off the english, who are content with being dictated to by a much larger, neighbouring country that Wales will always struggle to be economically successful. Where else in the world, outside of these shores, will you see a country content to be dictated to by another country, without the courage and pride to at least try and stand on their own two feet? It's quite beyond belief that you think if we had independence we would become a third world country....staggering. Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them. Also I didn't say that just because people are Welsh means that they know how to run a country......but why wouldn't they? And why would the english be be able to do it any better? They can hardly run their own country so why would they care about a neighbouring country if it's going tits up in their own green and pleasant land? Have a bit more faith in yourself and your fellow Welshmen and stop doing us down. That's the real problem....BELIEF. If you think that I'm wearing rose tinted glasses yours are covered in shit, which at least explains why you see things so pessimistically. But all the best anyway...at least you are a City fan

You did say we are ALL working class so what you said was grade A bullshit wasn't it. And as Big Boss Man says above we have the same rights as the English counterparts. You can vote cant you.Everyone has the right to vote Plaid if they want but do not as they are a bunch of clowns

So the world's 6th biggest economie in the world has no idea what it's doing?

And we don't sit back and let the English tell us what to do.

Like the English we get a vote in general elections.

I love to hear about the creation of jobs. I'm sure that high tax policy of Plaid will have them running and swiming here.

7th, Brazil have passed us.

Is it actually possible. My automatic feeling has always been 'no'. But why? The general opinion is that we could not support ourselves. Our fathers were too stupid, we are too stupid and our sons and daughters will be too stupid. We need to go begging to the English in order to survive. But is this true?

http://cambriapolitico.com/is-wales-eco ... ly-viable/

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-pr ... 11083.html

I am still undecided. But for those against, please offer something other than the usual drivel. Diolch yn fawr

U

Of course it's possible. We just lack confidence after hundreds of years of english rule and being brain-washed to think that we are not capable. We would get by no problem at all because we wouldn't be bogWged down by class warfare (because we're all working class in Wales) and because we'd work hard to make a success of things and because of self-esteem and pride in our own country

What utter bollicks fella. Around here in the Valleys is a considerable amount who will not work because they are to Fooking lazy to get of there arses and work. Take your rose tinted glasses off and jump into the real world of benefits.
Just because someone is Welsh does not mean they know how to run a Fooking Country. Is there any real difference between ordinary folk of England Scotland Ireland or Wales ? No there Fooking isn't each country has there fair share of scroungers layabouts, hard working people, and proud of there heratage .
Give this country to Plaid and we will be a third world nation, they are backward and anti progress IMO

Being joined at the hip economically to england has been so, so good to us over the last few hundred years hasn't it? It's you who is talking bollocks. And it's because of people with your attitude, who have no self esteem, who are happy to sponge off the english, who are content with being dictated to by a much larger, neighbouring country that Wales will always struggle to be economically successful. Where else in the world, outside of these shores, will you see a country content to be dictated to by another country, without the courage and pride to at least try and stand on their own two feet? It's quite beyond belief that you think if we had independence we would become a third world country....staggering. Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them. Also I didn't say that just because people are Welsh means that they know how to run a country......but why wouldn't they? And why would the english be be able to do it any better? They can hardly run their own country so why would they care about a neighbouring country if it's going tits up in their own green and pleasant land? Have a bit more faith in yourself and your fellow Welshmen and stop doing us down. That's the real problem....BELIEF. If you think that I'm wearing rose tinted glasses yours are covered in shit, which at least explains why you see things so pessimistically. But all the best anyway...at least you are a City fan

You did say we are ALL working class so what you said was grade A bullshit wasn't it. And as Big Boss Man says above we have the same rights as the English counterparts. You can vote cant you.Everyone has the right to vote Plaid if they want but do not as they are a bunch of clowns

Pretty much all working class...yes. We are not hung up on class differences as they are in england. We don't have the problem of elitism which runs through the english ruling classes. Just look at the cr@p that has been dominating the telly today in London. You pick on one word and follow it up by insults. You refer to Plaid as clowns. That's all you got. No substance at all. No comments about the rest of my reply?? Don't worry...I can see it's a subject that we won't agree on but never mind we both support the City....that's the main thing. Leave me and others to have belief in my country but lay off the insults....there's no need is there?

If Wales ever became independant I think I'd move my family out rather than starve.I think this country would quickly become another Ireland.I'm happy with devolution and would like a bit more but I think many are kidding themselves if they think we could go it alone.I suppose if we were to go for Independance we could follow the scottish independance manefesto which seems to say "whats yours is mine and whats mines my own"

We have way too many workers in the public sector to ever think of becoming indepedent. We lack the ambition and competitiveness to survive.

We have way too many workers in the public sector to ever think of becoming indepedent. We lack the ambition and competitiveness to survive.

A sweeping statement based upon........?

So let's all continue to sponge off the English then. That's a very proud and honourable way to act.

We have way too many workers in the public sector to ever think of becoming indepedent. We lack the ambition and competitiveness to survive.

A sweeping statement based upon........?

So let's all continue to sponge off the English then. That's a very proud and honourable way to act.

How are we sponging off the British government?

Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them.

Now THAT is a sweeping statement.WHY THE f**k DIDN'T OUR POLITICIANS THINK OF THAT. So bloody easy isn't it.Moonboots I believe youv'e come up with not only the answer to Wales' problems but Irelands,Spains,Portugal,Greece and a host of other european countries.The WDA(before their demise)did a resonable job attracting foriegn investment with well paid jobs into Wales but the people that took over have since screwed it up-who are they?-The f*cking welsh assembly,and you want to let these idiots loose in total control.Its a bit like saying all Cardiff City got to do is buy all of the best Man U,Man C and Chelsea players and Champions League football is a formality-which is quite true as a solution to our lack of CL football goes but..........................................................................do you now see where your rationale runs into a few problems in the real world.

Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them.

Now THAT is a sweeping statement.WHY THE f**k DIDN'T OUR POLITICIANS THINK OF THAT. So bloody easy isn't it.Moonboots I believe youv'e come up with not only the answer to Wales' problems but Irelands,Spains,Portugal,Greece and a host of other european countries.The WDA(before their demise)did a resonable job attracting foriegn investment with well paid jobs into Wales but the people that took over have since screwed it up-who are they?-The f*cking welsh assembly,and you want to let these idiots loose in total control.Its a bit like saying all Cardiff City got to do is buy all of the best Man U,Man C and Chelsea players and Champions League football is a formality-which is quite true as a solution to our lack of CL football goes but..........................................................................do you now see where your rationale runs into a few problems in the real world.

They didn't think of it because most of our politicians are useless gits who put the trust of our whole country in the hands of greedy and equally useless bankers who screwed up this country as well as plenty of others. You can create jobs quite easily....by commissioning some major projects.....road building, rail building (we're miles behind europe and Japan in this) the Severn Barrage and plenty more. These projects can be done with a combo of public and private money. They create jobs for people who pay taxes into the coffers instead of paying people benefits to stay home and do f**k all. It makes sense and lots of people are starting to recognise this now and are telling our pathetic UK government to ditch these crazy austerity measures and start spending some dosh to kick start the ecoomy. So stop being so condecending and open your eyes to an alternative method. What makes me laugh is that lots of people mock the Welsh Assembly when the real culprits are in London. They are the ones who have fucked up the country. The AMs have very little clout on the most important matters.
You seem to be the one with a very narrow outlook yet you lecture me on the real world!

By high tax then?

At the sametime deter any future inward investment.

Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them.

Now THAT is a sweeping statement.WHY THE f**k DIDN'T OUR POLITICIANS THINK OF THAT. So bloody easy isn't it.Moonboots I believe youv'e come up with not only the answer to Wales' problems but Irelands,Spains,Portugal,Greece and a host of other european countries.The WDA(before their demise)did a resonable job attracting foriegn investment with well paid jobs into Wales but the people that took over have since screwed it up-who are they?-The f*cking welsh assembly,and you want to let these idiots loose in total control.Its a bit like saying all Cardiff City got to do is buy all of the best Man U,Man C and Chelsea players and Champions League football is a formality-which is quite true as a solution to our lack of CL football goes but..........................................................................do you now see where your rationale runs into a few problems in the real world.

They didn't think of it because most of our politicians are useless gits who put the trust of our whole country in the hands of greedy and equally useless bankers who screwed up this country as well as plenty of others. You can create jobs quite easily....by commissioning some major projects.....road building, rail building (we're miles behind europe and Japan in this) the Severn Barrage and plenty more. These projects can be done with a combo of public and private money. They create jobs for people who pay taxes into the coffers instead of paying people benefits to stay home and do f**k all. It makes sense and lots of people are starting to recognise this now and are telling our pathetic UK government to ditch these crazy austerity measures and start spending some dosh to kick start the ecoomy. So stop being so condecending and open your eyes to an alternative method. What makes me laugh is that lots of people mock the Welsh Assembly when the real culprits are in London. They are the ones who have fucked up the country. The AMs have very little clout on the most important matters.
You seem to be the one with a very narrow outlook yet you lecture me on the real world!

Jesus Christ!!!What your suggesting is EXACTLY what the Greeks did and look where it got them!!And wheres all this public and private money comming from.At the risk of upsetting you futher-I'm guessing your quite young.And just because I don't support independance it doesn't make me a sponger.

By high tax then?

At the sametime deter any future inward investment.

No, Mr Boss, quite the contrary......people employed by creating jobs through major projects (paid for by public and private money) would contribute far more money by way of tax and NI to the government coffers therefore taking the pressure off the need for high taxes. Major project investment by the government would also be a huge boost to the private sector. That is quite normal.

Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them.

Now THAT is a sweeping statement.WHY THE f**k DIDN'T OUR POLITICIANS THINK OF THAT. So bloody easy isn't it.Moonboots I believe youv'e come up with not only the answer to Wales' problems but Irelands,Spains,Portugal,Greece and a host of other european countries.The WDA(before their demise)did a resonable job attracting foriegn investment with well paid jobs into Wales but the people that took over have since screwed it up-who are they?-The f*cking welsh assembly,and you want to let these idiots loose in total control.Its a bit like saying all Cardiff City got to do is buy all of the best Man U,Man C and Chelsea players and Champions League football is a formality-which is quite true as a solution to our lack of CL football goes but..........................................................................do you now see where your rationale runs into a few problems in the real world.

They didn't think of it because most of our politicians are useless gits who put the trust of our whole country in the hands of greedy and equally useless bankers who screwed up this country as well as plenty of others. You can create jobs quite easily....by commissioning some major projects.....road building, rail building (we're miles behind europe and Japan in this) the Severn Barrage and plenty more. These projects can be done with a combo of public and private money. They create jobs for people who pay taxes into the coffers instead of paying people benefits to stay home and do f**k all. It makes sense and lots of people are starting to recognise this now and are telling our pathetic UK government to ditch these crazy austerity measures and start spending some dosh to kick start the ecoomy. So stop being so condecending and open your eyes to an alternative method. What makes me laugh is that lots of people mock the Welsh Assembly when the real culprits are in London. They are the ones who have fucked up the country. The AMs have very little clout on the most important matters.
You seem to be the one with a very narrow outlook yet you lecture me on the real world!

Jesus Christ!!!What your suggesting is EXACTLY what the Greeks did and look where it got them!!And wheres all this public and private money comming from.At the risk of upsetting you futher-I'm guessing your quite young.And just because I don't support independance it doesn't make me a sponger.

We all sponge off the english. If their stats are right they subsidise us and the Scots quite considerably so don't be offended as I include myself in that. The only difference being is that I would like not to sponge off them and have a go at doing things our own way. I believe that we can do better. Years of being joined at the hip to the english economy has really fucked us up as can be seen by the fact that Wales is top of most of the poverty leagues in the uk. You surely can't believe that Welsh people are inferior do you? Your comment on Greece is irrelevant. It's a different set of circumstances. Also, you ask where the money is coming from. But the goverment somehow managed to find over 100 BILLION pounds in order to bail out the banks so money can be found but should be put to better use IMO. Shall we talk football instead....it's much more fun.

Christ, you are going to pay for the work with the tax you will get from the workers you hired to do it?

Will there be tolls on the road? If not why would the private sector invest?

Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them.

Now THAT is a sweeping statement.WHY THE f**k DIDN'T OUR POLITICIANS THINK OF THAT. So bloody easy isn't it.Moonboots I believe youv'e come up with not only the answer to Wales' problems but Irelands,Spains,Portugal,Greece and a host of other european countries.The WDA(before their demise)did a resonable job attracting foriegn investment with well paid jobs into Wales but the people that took over have since screwed it up-who are they?-The f*cking welsh assembly,and you want to let these idiots loose in total control.Its a bit like saying all Cardiff City got to do is buy all of the best Man U,Man C and Chelsea players and Champions League football is a formality-which is quite true as a solution to our lack of CL football goes but..........................................................................do you now see where your rationale runs into a few problems in the real world.

They didn't think of it because most of our politicians are useless gits who put the trust of our whole country in the hands of greedy and equally useless bankers who screwed up this country as well as plenty of others. You can create jobs quite easily....by commissioning some major projects.....road building, rail building (we're miles behind europe and Japan in this) the Severn Barrage and plenty more. These projects can be done with a combo of public and private money. They create jobs for people who pay taxes into the coffers instead of paying people benefits to stay home and do f**k all. It makes sense and lots of people are starting to recognise this now and are telling our pathetic UK government to ditch these crazy austerity measures and start spending some dosh to kick start the ecoomy. So stop being so condecending and open your eyes to an alternative method. What makes me laugh is that lots of people mock the Welsh Assembly when the real culprits are in London. They are the ones who have fucked up the country. The AMs have very little clout on the most important matters.
You seem to be the one with a very narrow outlook yet you lecture me on the real world!

Jesus Christ!!!What your suggesting is EXACTLY what the Greeks did and look where it got them!!And wheres all this public and private money comming from.At the risk of upsetting you futher-I'm guessing your quite young.And just because I don't support independance it doesn't make me a sponger.

We all sponge off the english. If their stats are right they subsidise us and the Scots quite considerably so don't be offended as I include myself in that. The only difference being is that I would like not to sponge off them and have a go at doing things our own way. I believe that we can do better. Years of being joined at the hip to the english economy has really fucked us up as can be seen by the fact that Wales is top of most of the poverty leagues in the uk. You surely can't believe that Welsh people are inferior do you? Your comment on Greece is irrelevant. It's a different set of circumstances. Also, you ask where the money is coming from. But the goverment somehow managed to find over 100 BILLION pounds in order to bail out the banks so money can be found but should be put to better use IMO. Shall we talk football instead....it's much more fun.

The British economy is based around the banking industry. Better use? f*cking hell.

Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them.

Now THAT is a sweeping statement.WHY THE f**k DIDN'T OUR POLITICIANS THINK OF THAT. So bloody easy isn't it.Moonboots I believe youv'e come up with not only the answer to Wales' problems but Irelands,Spains,Portugal,Greece and a host of other european countries.The WDA(before their demise)did a resonable job attracting foriegn investment with well paid jobs into Wales but the people that took over have since screwed it up-who are they?-The f*cking welsh assembly,and you want to let these idiots loose in total control.Its a bit like saying all Cardiff City got to do is buy all of the best Man U,Man C and Chelsea players and Champions League football is a formality-which is quite true as a solution to our lack of CL football goes but..........................................................................do you now see where your rationale runs into a few problems in the real world.

They didn't think of it because most of our politicians are useless gits who put the trust of our whole country in the hands of greedy and equally useless bankers who screwed up this country as well as plenty of others. You can create jobs quite easily....by commissioning some major projects.....road building, rail building (we're miles behind europe and Japan in this) the Severn Barrage and plenty more. These projects can be done with a combo of public and private money. They create jobs for people who pay taxes into the coffers instead of paying people benefits to stay home and do f**k all. It makes sense and lots of people are starting to recognise this now and are telling our pathetic UK government to ditch these crazy austerity measures and start spending some dosh to kick start the ecoomy. So stop being so condecending and open your eyes to an alternative method. What makes me laugh is that lots of people mock the Welsh Assembly when the real culprits are in London. They are the ones who have fucked up the country. The AMs have very little clout on the most important matters.
You seem to be the one with a very narrow outlook yet you lecture me on the real world!

Jesus Christ!!!What your suggesting is EXACTLY what the Greeks did and look where it got them!!And wheres all this public and private money comming from.At the risk of upsetting you futher-I'm guessing your quite young.And just because I don't support independance it doesn't make me a sponger.

We all sponge off the english. If their stats are right they subsidise us and the Scots quite considerably so don't be offended as I include myself in that. The only difference being is that I would like not to sponge off them and have a go at doing things our own way. I believe that we can do better. Years of being joined at the hip to the english economy has really fucked us up as can be seen by the fact that Wales is top of most of the poverty leagues in the uk. You surely can't believe that Welsh people are inferior do you? Your comment on Greece is irrelevant. It's a different set of circumstances. Also, you ask where the money is coming from. But the goverment somehow managed to find over 100 BILLION pounds in order to bail out the banks so money can be found but should be put to better use IMO. Shall we talk football instead....it's much more fun.

All parts of the UK get subsidised not just the Welsh and scottish. We pay taxes that go to the government so we have a fair right to that money. The money is based on population and poverty.

Christ, you are going to pay for the work with the tax you will get from the workers you hired to do it?

Will there be tolls on the road? If not why would the private sector invest?

It's not just me but famous economists such as Professor James Tobin, John Maynard Keynes and Sir John Hicks believe that governments need to spend during a recession in order to stimulate the economy. Apparently wars are proof of this.

A REVIEW OF KEYNESIAN THEORY

Keynesian theory is central to understanding the Great Depression. We'll review just the theory here, and reserve for other sections the opportunity to see if the events of the 1930s bear out the theory.

Keynesianism is named after John Maynard Keynes, a British economist who lived from 1883 to 1946. He was a man of many contradictions: an elitist whose economic theories would be embraced by liberals the world over; a bisexual who enjoyed a happy and lifelong marriage to a Russian ballerina; a genius with an uncanny ability to predict the future, but whose works were often badly organized and sometimes very wrong. I mention this only because many of Keynes' critics try to refute his theories by pointing to the man himself. This is worse than irrelevant, of course; such criticisms are often prejudiced.

What is not in contention is that even Keynes' critics call him the greatest and most influential economist of the 20th century. For this reason, he is known as "the father of modern economics." When the Great Depression hit worldwide, it fell on economists to explain it and devise a cure. Most economists were convinced that something as large and intractable as the Great Depression must have complicated causes. Keynes, however, came up with an explanation of economic slumps that was surprisingly simple. In fact, when he shared his theory and proposed solution with Franklin Roosevelt, the President is said to have dismissed them with the words: "Too easy."

Keynes explanations of slumps ran something like this: in a normal economy, there is a high level of employment, and everyone is spending their earnings as usual. This means there is a circular flow of money in the economy, as my spending becomes part of your earnings, and your spending becomes part of my earnings. But suppose something happens to shake consumer confidence in the economy. (There are many possible reasons for this, which we'll cover in a moment.) Worried consumers may then try to weather the coming economic hardship by saving their money. But because my spending is part of your earnings, my decision to hoard money makes things worse for you. And you, responding to your own difficult times, will start hoarding money too, making things even worse for me. So there's a vicious circle at work here: people hoard money in difficult times, but times become more difficult when people hoard money.

The cure for this, Keynes said, was for the central bank to expand the money supply. By putting more bills in people's hands, consumer confidence would return, people would spend, and the circular flow of money would be reestablished. Just that simple! Too simple, in fact, for the policy-makers of that time.

If this is the proposed definition and cure for recessions, then what about depressions? Keynes believed that depressions were recessions that had fallen into a "liquidity trap." A liquidity trap is when people hoard money and refuse to spend no matter how much the government tries to expand the money supply. In these dire circumstances, Keynes believed that the government should do what individuals were not, namely, spend. In his memorable phrase, Keynes called this "priming the pump" of the economy, a final government effort to reestablish the circular flow of money.

Let's return now to the reasons why people start hoarding money in the first place. There are many possible explanations, all of which are open to argument. It may be a consumer loss of confidence in the economy, perhaps triggered by a visible event like a stock market crash. It may be a natural disaster, such as a drought, earthquake or hurricane. It may be a sudden loss of jobs, or a weak sector of the economy. It may be inequality of wealth, which results in the rich producing a surplus of goods, but leaving the poor too poor to buy them. It may be something intrinsic within the economy which causes it to go through a natural cycle of recessions and recoveries. Or the Federal Reserve may tighten the money supply too much, compelling people to hang on to their disappearing dollars. This last point is especially important, since many critics of activist government believe that is how the Great Depression started.

As mentioned above, Keynes' advice on ending the Great Depression was rejected. President Roosevelt tried countless other approaches, all of which failed. Almost all economists agree that World War II cured the Great Depression; Keynesians believe this was so because the U.S. finally began massive public spending on defense. This is a large part of the reason why "wars are good for the economy." Although no one knows the full secret to economic growth (the world's top economists are still working on this mystery), wars are an economic boon in part because governments always resort to Keynesian spending during them. Of course, such spending need not be directed only towards war -- social programs are much more preferable.

In seven short years, under massive Keynesian spending, the U.S. went from the greatest depression it has ever known to the greatest economic boom it has ever known. The success of Keynesian economics was so resounding that almost all capitalist governments around the world adopted its policies. And the result seems to be nothing less than the extinction of the economic depression! Before World War II, eight U.S. recessions worsened into depressions (as happened in 1807, 1837, 1873, 1882, 1893, 1920, 1933, and 1937). Since World War II, under Keynesian policies, there have been nine recessions (1945-46, 1949, 1954, 1956, 1960-61, 1970, 1973-75, 1980-83, 1990-92 ), and not one has turned into a depression. The success of Keynesian economics was such that even Richard Nixon once declared, "We are all Keynesians now."
Taken from http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Keynesianism.htm

Not that anyone wants a war....but it sure makes the point.

Also, I am aware that there are a lot of lazy fookers...but create proper jobs with proper pay (not the minimum wage cr@p we have in Wales) and the vast majority will take them.

Now THAT is a sweeping statement.WHY THE f**k DIDN'T OUR POLITICIANS THINK OF THAT. So bloody easy isn't it.Moonboots I believe youv'e come up with not only the answer to Wales' problems but Irelands,Spains,Portugal,Greece and a host of other european countries.The WDA(before their demise)did a resonable job attracting foriegn investment with well paid jobs into Wales but the people that took over have since screwed it up-who are they?-The f*cking welsh assembly,and you want to let these idiots loose in total control.Its a bit like saying all Cardiff City got to do is buy all of the best Man U,Man C and Chelsea players and Champions League football is a formality-which is quite true as a solution to our lack of CL football goes but..........................................................................do you now see where your rationale runs into a few problems in the real world.

They didn't think of it because most of our politicians are useless gits who put the trust of our whole country in the hands of greedy and equally useless bankers who screwed up this country as well as plenty of others. You can create jobs quite easily....by commissioning some major projects.....road building, rail building (we're miles behind europe and Japan in this) the Severn Barrage and plenty more. These projects can be done with a combo of public and private money. They create jobs for people who pay taxes into the coffers instead of paying people benefits to stay home and do f**k all. It makes sense and lots of people are starting to recognise this now and are telling our pathetic UK government to ditch these crazy austerity measures and start spending some dosh to kick start the ecoomy. So stop being so condecending and open your eyes to an alternative method. What makes me laugh is that lots of people mock the Welsh Assembly when the real culprits are in London. They are the ones who have fucked up the country. The AMs have very little clout on the most important matters.
You seem to be the one with a very narrow outlook yet you lecture me on the real world!

Jesus Christ!!!What your suggesting is EXACTLY what the Greeks did and look where it got them!!And wheres all this public and private money comming from.At the risk of upsetting you futher-I'm guessing your quite young.And just because I don't support independance it doesn't make me a sponger.

We all sponge off the english. If their stats are right they subsidise us and the Scots quite considerably so don't be offended as I include myself in that. The only difference being is that I would like not to sponge off them and have a go at doing things our own way. I believe that we can do better. Years of being joined at the hip to the english economy has really fucked us up as can be seen by the fact that Wales is top of most of the poverty leagues in the uk. You surely can't believe that Welsh people are inferior do you? Your comment on Greece is irrelevant. It's a different set of circumstances. Also, you ask where the money is coming from. But the goverment somehow managed to find over 100 BILLION pounds in order to bail out the banks so money can be found but should be put to better use IMO. Shall we talk football instead....it's much more fun.

The British economy is based around the banking industry. Better use? f*cking hell.

No it's not' It's one component. And yes it was found for the banks who cocked up big time so can be found to be put into building a future for the country which is better than bailing incompetent bankers.

Please list what sectors are on par with the banking industry?

I guess you haven't heard the saying....

'How to you confuse a economist? Ask him about the economy......'

Just spend you way out. How? None of these famous economists can answer.

Your 'brilliant' idea was to use tax/NI from the road workers to pay for the work.......

Don't your find it funny that industry leaders - people who had made millions - never agree with the economists who has never left the classroom?

Please list what sectors are on par with the banking industry?

I guess you haven't heard the saying....

'How to you confuse a economist? Ask him about the economy......'

Just spend you way out. How? None of these famous economists can answer.

Your 'brilliant' idea was to use tax/NI from the road workers to pay for the work.......

Don't your find it funny that industry leaders - people who had made millions - never agree with the economists who has never left the classroom?

According to this

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 6DaihMGLQg

there are two sectors bigger than banking.

Have you ever heard the saying "some sayings are crap and childish and mean absolutely nothing"?

But Keynes was proved right like many others. And your so called industry leaders may have made millions for themselves but don't give a f**k about society and that's why I believe it can be done better...for the greater good of the many, not to line the pockets of the greedy.

Pointless going on because we'll never agree. All the best. No hard feelings.

Christ, have you confused employment numbers with GDP?

Again, which sectors bring in as much money as the service/banking industry?

And your idol has said we need to spend money but has put no ideas on how that money should be raised.

Maybe he should your 'brilliant' idea of your tax from the road workers to cover their wages and materials? Brilliant logic.

Are Wales going to join the EU once we leave the UK?

That would mean joining the Euro.

Also Germany is pushing laws that will prevent high debt public spending.

You really don't have a clue.

Christ, have you confused employment numbers with GDP?

Again, which sectors bring in as much money as the service/banking industry?

And your idol has said we need to spend money but has put no ideas on how that money should be raised.

Maybe he should your 'brilliant' idea of your tax from the road workers to cover their wages and materials? Brilliant logic.

You didn't specify how to measure it did you? Anyway, the size of the banking industry is taking it off topic...you are trying to cloud the argument by sticking to a single issue, and the rest of your post is pretty garbled as you obviously haven't understood the points being made. Tax from road workers is a gross over-simplication of what I described. Also, Keynes is not my idol (silly mockery on your part) and he advocated large scale public spending to kick-start the economy. Clearly market forces alone are not enough.There's far more to it than that but there's no point in going through it all again as you just rubbish/mock it with one-liners based on opinion or f**k all (take your pick). I tried to lighten it up a bit with some banter and the odd but you are getting a bit intense but with nothing sensible to say. Up the City

Everyone knows public spending would solve the problem - but no one has been able to come up with an idea how to generate the money.

And you are not talking about the UK. You are talking about tiny Wales without the back up of the city of London. Someone already point out Greece, but you dissmissed that for reasons you didn't make clear.

I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about GDP? You said giving all that money to the banks was a waste and I simple pointed out that the British economy is based around the banking/service industry.

Again, you wanted to take away the focus point of our economy and still borrow money for huge public spending?

There is a great video on YouTube with this past Nobel economic winners being taken to school on their views on the current economic problems.

What about joining the EU?