" SURELY IT CANNOT CONTINUE AS IT IS? "

I have just read through a thread on this board and thought I would start a new thread about the clubs finances.

Before I start I appreciate that some of the figures being posted on this board are a result of my updates and have not been qualified as fact but I will explain as I go how I came to know these figures.

Our current level of debt is by my reckoning over £70million and it is growing daily.

How does the £70million break down?

The Malaysians have so far invested £36million and £6million of that has been converted to shares therefore leaving them owed £30million. Steve Borley told a mutual friend of the figure that the Malaysians have invested after he learned that some posters on this message board were questioning the Malaysians committment.

Steve Borley also told our mutual friend that the Malaysians were putting in £1.2million every month to service the clubs day to day running.

We know there is a figure of £24million attached to Langston but there is also the other aspects of bonuses which become payable if and when certain achievements are made ie.promotion. When everything is added together with the interest then the Langston debt becomes £35million. This £35million is debated between the club and Langston but we know for certain that it is £24million plus the interest.

We also have other creditors still owed money, Ray Ranson, PMG, Steve Borley, Michael Isaac etc. these total more than £5million so we are in excess of £70million.

Now if we take into account that the Malaysians are paying £1.2million each month then the figure is continuing to rise, how long can this situation continue to happen.

The Langston debt will not just go away, regardless of anyone's view of Sam Hammam, it has to be serviced whether it be in 4 days or in 4 years.

The Malaysians debt will not just go away, when the time cones that the Malaysians move on then I do not envisage that the dent will be wiped free.

Our wage bill is 'broadly comparative' to that of last season yet we lost many of the big name players.

So how much longer can we go on adding to an already exuberant sum?

You don't even know how much Annis has in his wallet so how the hell do you expect to know the financial dealings of some very experienced businessman and their shrewd accountants.

Cop onto yourself, forget it and enjoy the football.

It's no doubt fact that the club has massive debt.
So what is the solution?
It's fine debating the ins and outs but if anyone thinks they know better than the owners then let's see some good solutions being offered.....anyone?

It's no doubt fact that the club has massive debt.
So what is the solution?
It's fine debating the ins and outs but if anyone thinks they know better than the owners then let's see some good solutions being offered.....anyone?

Alex,

The best question asked for a long time.

Not being funny carl or having a dig at you in anyway,but why would borley be disgusing club finaces with a fan surely there has to be some privacy

why is debt bad? if we can service the debt and meet our obligations as and when they fall due then what is the issue?

Not being funny carl or having a dig at you in anyway,but why would borley be disgusing club finaces with a fan surely there has to be some privacy

My old friend they are public knowledge anyway.

Cardiff city won't go into admin where doing well, new stadium, good fan base etc we will get there in the end ain't no way this club going anywhere

Nice one annis

You could not borrow enough to buy a tripe supper on the security of a certain piece of paper

No Carl, I don't recall taking your call and perhaps you will ask Steve Davies to confirm your claims on here.
I don't tell the manager who to sign, he has his head of recruitment and head scout to do that for him. We don't play championship manager in the boardroom. If I have an opinion I will keep it to myself.

Well Steve I certainly remember and it was within working hours.

I started the call with a simple question and that was 'Do you believe the Malaysians are in it for the long haul ?' we then discussed at length the subject.

I didn't suggest you told the manager who to sign.

I am sure Steve and I will talk tomorrow.

The club will do whats best for the club the malasians will do whats best for the club they woulndt invest this much money into us without any reason they obviously see a return or theyd be shit at buisness. As fans we buy tickets we buy merchandise we support the club lets leave the finances up to the professionals? stop speculating as its not getting us anywhere and carl love your updates but better off just leaveing the finances to the club instead of telling everyone everything i no this debt is well known allready but us discussing it wont change a thing

lets just enjoy the football and kick all this politics into touch

lets just enjoy the football and kick all this politics into touch

Agree Baz.

Carl

in case you missed it first time round, do you think the clubs running costs are £35m per annum? I have arrived at this figure using an estimate of £20m turnover and the £15m you reckon VT needs to put in to cover the shortfall each year.

The club will do whats best for the club the malasians will do whats best for the club they woulndt invest this much money into us without any reason they obviously see a return or theyd be shit at buisness. As fans we buy tickets we buy merchandise we support the club lets leave the finances up to the professionals? stop speculating as its not getting us anywhere and carl love your updates but better off just leaveing the finances to the club instead of telling everyone everything i no this debt is well known allready but us discussing it wont change a thing

The debt is well known as you say, I hope it is sorted sooner rather than later, I see that some believe this to be anti-Malaysian post but it is not. They will also say it is a pro Sam post but again it is not.

I am debating the figures

Carl,as a city fan for 45 years I remember similar concerns about our finances when Fred Dewey ran the club then,goldstone,Kenton utilities,clemo,wright,Steve borley,Sam and others I've probably missed.the upshot is nobody really knows except those in charge and as a business man myself it's the way it should be.whatever the prime motivation of all our previous and present owners,the upshot is we should be thankful that someone has always stepped forward.debt being accrued is necessary in football at the highest level,it's who you owe money to which is the biggest issue ie tax man,vat and secured creditors.level of our debt didn't put off the malaysians, especially as we didn't seem to have much in the way of assets.maybe days like Sunday and all the reflected glory is their motivation, time will tell.

Carl

in case you missed it first time round, do you think the clubs running costs are £35m per annum? I have arrived at this figure using an estimate of £20m turnover and the £15m you reckon VT needs to put in to cover the shortfall each year.

I don't reckon it Damien, it was said that a director said it.

I am asking questions like you.

what figures are being debated Carl? None are in the public domain and Steve Borley has suggested that we wait and see for the official figures. Have you seen a set of audited statements or are you engaging in post hoc rationalisation?

Carl

in case you missed it first time round, do you think the clubs running costs are £35m per annum? I have arrived at this figure using an estimate of £20m turnover and the £15m you reckon VT needs to put in to cover the shortfall each year.

I don't reckon it Damien, it was said that a director said it.

I am asking questions like you.

so you have not heard directly from a director, but someone has told you they heard it from a director. Is that correct?

Carl,as a city fan for 45 years I remember similar concerns about our finances when Fred Dewey ran the club then,goldstone,Kenton utilities,clemo,wright,Steve borley,Sam and others I've probably missed.the upshot is nobody really knows except those in charge and as a business man myself it's the way it should be.whatever the prime motivation of all our previous and present owners,the upshot is we should be thankful that someone has always stepped forward.debt being accrued is necessary in football at the highest level,it's who you owe money to which is the biggest issue ie tax man,vat and secured creditors.level of our debt didn't put off the malaysians, especially as we didn't seem to have much in the way of assets.maybe days like Sunday and all the reflected glory is their motivation, time will tell.

Monty I want plenty more days like Sunday, it was fantastic, I just hope that if these figures are correct then we are able to manage them as a club without being underpinned by a benefactor.

Carl

in case you missed it first time round, do you think the clubs running costs are £35m per annum? I have arrived at this figure using an estimate of £20m turnover and the £15m you reckon VT needs to put in to cover the shortfall each year.

I don't reckon it Damien, it was said that a director said it.

I am asking questions like you.

so you have not heard directly from a director, but someone has told you they heard it from a director. Is that correct?

Bit of both really Damien.

In the conversation I had with Steve Borley days after the Reading defeat, Steve said the Malaysians had out in £21million, that was in a conversation with myself.

A couple of weeks ago Steve Davies said that Steve told him that the Malaysians were had put in £1.2million each month since August and one particular month the figure was £1.5million.

Then at the end of last week the steve Davies said that Steve told him the figure they had now invested was £36million.

but you have not heard directly from any director that the debt is £70m? Likewise you have not heard directly from any director that the malaysians have invested £36m or even if this is true all of the debt was repayable rather than equity investment?

its a bit like chinese whispers really. Its probably best that we all wait until tomorrow when the figures are published then we can all have a look at what the auditors make of it all.

but you have not heard directly from any director that the debt is £70m? Likewise you have not heard directly from any director that the malaysians have invested £36m or even if this is true all of the debt was repayable rather than equity investment?

its a bit like chinese whispers really. Its probably best that we all wait until tomorrow when the figures are published then we can all have a look at what the auditors make of it all.

Well £70million would not show if the accounts are indeed released tomorrow Damien as I would expect you already know.

Say it enough times and you will start to believe it. That was a certain persons classic trick. I see I have told the tooth fairy it takes 35mill a year to run the club as well Will see what the clubs accounts say and wether you get Steve Davies to back up your story on here.

but you have not heard directly from any director that the debt is £70m? Likewise you have not heard directly from any director that the malaysians have invested £36m or even if this is true all of the debt was repayable rather than equity investment?

its a bit like chinese whispers really. Its probably best that we all wait until tomorrow when the figures are published then we can all have a look at what the auditors make of it all.

Well £70million would not show if the accounts are indeed released tomorrow Damien as I would expect you already know.

How delightfully convenient for this story you have just broke

Don't know of the debt.
No winding up orders though which is always a good start.

IMO this seasons debt will certainly be the biggest of any season considering all the people we are paying. Go backwards before you can go forward.

Makes a mockery of people demanding more transfer though Carl?

Say it enough times and you will start to believe it. That was a certain persons classic trick. I see I have told the tooth fairy it takes 35mill a year to run the club as well Will see what the clubs accounts say and wether you get Steve Davies to back up your story on here.

And if Steve backs it up then what?

Why are you so bothered by a certain Sam Hammam Steve?

That's 2 digs in this thread already.

I have already said that material facts will be disclosed in the accounts if indeed they are material. Even if VT is injecting £1.2m per month, who is to say it is not being used to repay one form of debt and replace with another at terms more favourable to the club. there are so many unknowns here that any form of speculation really is pissing in the wind.

Can I ask again:

did you hear directly from a director that the malaysians have invested £36m? and
did you hear directly from a director that the clubs debt is now £70m?

but you have not heard directly from any director that the debt is £70m? Likewise you have not heard directly from any director that the malaysians have invested £36m or even if this is true all of the debt was repayable rather than equity investment?

its a bit like chinese whispers really. Its probably best that we all wait until tomorrow when the figures are published then we can all have a look at what the auditors make of it all.

Well £70million would not show if the accounts are indeed released tomorrow Damien as I would expect you already know.

How delightfully convenient for this story you have just broke

These figures have been discussed on here for some time, I have just made a post mentioning all these. Nothing new here.

I have already said that material facts will be disclosed in the accounts if indeed they are material. Even if VT is injecting £1.2m per month, who is to say it is not being used to repay one form of debt and replace with another at terms more favourable to the club. there are so many unknowns here that any form of speculation really is pissing in the wind.

Can I ask again:

did you hear directly from a director that the malaysians have invested £36m? and
did you hear directly from a director that the clubs debt is now £70m?

Read above for response.