" LET US ALL REMEMBER "

At the end of the day QPR won the league on merit, there was no cheating on the pitch & for the life of me I cannot see how they had an advantage over the rest of us. Good luck to QPR and I wish them well in their enquiry

I'd say playing a player whose ownership infringed Fa rules, the providing false documentation to cover that (if the charges are proven) is gaining an advantage.

How on earth can you separate on/off pitch activities? What should the punishment be, if proven? A fine?

if so, why then shouldn't we break every rule under the sun with Tan bankrolling any fine?

If proven, the charges are serious enough to warrent a big points deduction. And I'd think exactly the same if it was us.

With Ridsdale pulling the strings not so long ago who knows what dodgy deals we might have got ourselves into.

Weather they get a points deduction or not at this particular time I don't care as I want to solely focus on seeing Cardiff City gaining automatic promotion, preferably without the aid of a QPR points deduction. Of course I won't complain if they are deducted points, however I am not going to waste my time caring about their court case.

Chris you think similar to myself

I just think some people have gone overboard and like you said we are not whiter than white.

Cardiff City is my priority, I'm not giving QPR or any other club apart from Norwich a second thought.

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

That throughout all this talk of QPR and cheating etc.

Remember how many clubs were gunning for us when we signed Craig Bellamy.

We do not pay anywhere near a percentage of his wages before it is deemed morally correct and I am certain that the rules regarding loan signings will change this Summer as a result.

I am not saying that we have cheated in any way but are we right to take the moral high ground when, let's be honest, we would be going mental if another club had done what we have done throughout this season.

Yes QPR may have broken rules but they were broken in August 2009, not this season and as far as I am concerned they are worthy Champions and if we are to gain promotion automatically then I hope we do it on merit.

I am not saying I would take promotion via default but I certainly would not celebrate it and I think that way of promotion would cause problems amongst City fans as those who want DJ out would claim he has ultimately failed and he only got up by default.

At the end of the day QPR won the league on merit, there was no cheating on the pitch & for the life of me I cannot see how they had an advantage over the rest of us. Good luck to QPR and I wish them well in their enquiry

As of the 6th May - your views may change - when an influential player in their squad - might soon be deemed to be as an ineledgible player for a number of matches. IF they are found guilty - then the statement you wrote above has no value, because they would have cheated!

Because no one came forward did they. It was rumoured that Tottenham and Everton were interested but did they come forward to annouce their interest? No they did not, why becuase Man city would have not allowed it to happen.

for bellamy this was his best choice. as well as family matters. on the money side of things, the mentioned teams.would not have paid bellamy 90thousand a week, so coming to cardiff was a money factor as well. close to family. still getting 90thousand a week

That throughout all this talk of QPR and cheating etc.

Remember how many clubs were gunning for us when we signed Craig Bellamy.

We do not pay anywhere near a percentage of his wages before it is deemed morally correct and I am certain that the rules regarding loan signings will change this Summer as a result.

I am not saying that we have cheated in any way but are we right to take the moral high ground when, let's be honest, we would be going mental if another club had done what we have done throughout this season.

Yes QPR may have broken rules but they were broken in August 2009, not this season and as far as I am concerned they are worthy Champions and if we are to gain promotion automatically then I hope we do it on merit.

I am not saying I would take promotion via default but I certainly would not celebrate it and I think that way of promotion would cause problems amongst City fans as those who want DJ out would claim he has ultimately failed and he only got up by default.

At the end of the day QPR won the league on merit, there was no cheating on the pitch & for the life of me I cannot see how they had an advantage over the rest of us. Good luck to QPR and I wish them well in their enquiry

As of the 6th May - your views may change - when an influential player in their squad - might soon be deemed to be as an ineledgible player for a number of matches. IF they are found guilty - then the statement you wrote above has no value, because they would have cheated!

Craig correct me if I am wrong but was Faurlin ineligible this season or part of last season ?

I would absolutely Carl because I worked damned hard for over 20 years as a local league secretary and county fa council member to maintain integrity in football. Believe me it was hard work but above all else I believe that everyone involved in this wonderful sport should have respect for all aspects of it.

Respect for the laws of the game for match officials and opponents and of course respect for the rules and regulations of the competitions thats where you find true and longlasting morality for the game.

Football administration is simple really and is purely about black and white right and wrong, you say we are not whiter than white of CB I couldn't disagree more. We have shown complete respect for the rules and regulations of the competition so we are as white as driven snow.

To introduce a moral dimension to the CB loan signing introduces a grey area and football doesn't operate efficently with anything less than black and white.

I respect your opinion of course and I know you respect mine so I know you will understand why my 20 years experience has left me with such strong views.

I tell you one thing Carl Neil Warnock would most definately not want my 20 years experience on the IRC Panel thats a fact.

Superb post again Castle. I totally agree with you that adding a moral dimention is totally ridiculous and can you imagine the reaction if Dave Jones was quoted in the press that he had turned down the chance to sign Craig Bellamy because "it was morally wrong?"

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

You're the man with the answers

We've no documentation at hand to answer your question. It may well be a commitment of Tan to invest said amount into club regularly which covers the wages. Hence the "not part of wage bill" being both true and false at the same time.

However, it's nowhere close to being third party ownership imo. He's "owned" by Man City, or more accurately, his registration is. Tan cannot disperse of him as an asset to other clubs. The only argument you can really make is Tan is loaning the club money to cover the loan agreement fees, which is nowhere near comparable to the Faurlin case. Nor is it illegal or immoral.

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

No Tan has no restriction or control over his contract and indeed does not own it.

That throughout all this talk of QPR and cheating etc.

Remember how many clubs were gunning for us when we signed Craig Bellamy.

We do not pay anywhere near a percentage of his wages before it is deemed morally correct and I am certain that the rules regarding loan signings will change this Summer as a result.

I am not saying that we have cheated in any way but are we right to take the moral high ground when, let's be honest, we would be going mental if another club had done what we have done throughout this season.

Yes QPR may have broken rules but they were broken in August 2009, not this season and as far as I am concerned they are worthy Champions and if we are to gain promotion automatically then I hope we do it on merit.

I am not saying I would take promotion via default but I certainly would not celebrate it and I think that way of promotion would cause problems amongst City fans as those who want DJ out would claim he has ultimately failed and he only got up by default.

Carl it was this season that they cheated infact last October alledgedly re: false information given to the FA when extending faurlons contract and the FA then asking them who did they buy him off as for taking the high ground what we done when having Craig on loan was within the rules, and the FA sanctioned it, what QPR have done is break the rules and not once but seven times, promotion, Yes at QPR's expense, of course, and I wont lose any sleep over it

At the end of the day QPR won the league on merit, there was no cheating on the pitch & for the life of me I cannot see how they had an advantage over the rest of us. Good luck to QPR and I wish them well in their enquiry

I'd say playing a player whose ownership infringed Fa rules, the providing false documentation to cover that (if the charges are proven) is gaining an advantage.

How on earth can you separate on/off pitch activities? What should the punishment be, if proven? A fine?

if so, why then shouldn't we break every rule under the sun with Tan bankrolling any fine?

If proven, the charges are serious enough to warrent a big points deduction. And I'd think exactly the same if it was us.

Point I badly made was that they deserved their promotion on merit, however if they are proven to be guilty then sobeit & be punished accordingly. Someone else pointed out that whatever way we get promotion we'll be delighted. I know one thing for sure if that was us we would have been dealt with immediately with a point reduction. I just cannot see the logic of leaving it until 6th May only for the fact that a decision had already been made, time will tell.

That throughout all this talk of QPR and cheating etc.

Remember how many clubs were gunning for us when we signed Craig Bellamy.

We do not pay anywhere near a percentage of his wages before it is deemed morally correct and I am certain that the rules regarding loan signings will change this Summer as a result.

I am not saying that we have cheated in any way but are we right to take the moral high ground when, let's be honest, we would be going mental if another club had done what we have done throughout this season.

Yes QPR may have broken rules but they were broken in August 2009, not this season and as far as I am concerned they are worthy Champions and if we are to gain promotion automatically then I hope we do it on merit.

I am not saying I would take promotion via default but I certainly would not celebrate it and I think that way of promotion would cause problems amongst City fans as those who want DJ out would claim he has ultimately failed and he only got up by default.

I am very surprised at this post Carl and whilst I always respect opinions that are different to mine I think you are most definately wrong on a few points here.

Firstly as a club we have done absolutely nothing wrong with the terms of the Craig Bellamy every detail of that loan was checked over by the FL prior to the transfer being approved so we have absolutely nothing to reproach ourselves over nothing. Football is a dog eat dog business and if any other club in the Championship could have done this deal they would of make absolutely no mistake about that.

As for rules being changed to prevent such a loan happening again well I hope the amendment to rules application has been put in because it is now to late to submit rules changes to be ratified by the FL AGM in June.

The other part where I think you are so wrong in your opinion is that QPR have very much been charged with infringement of FA regulations this season, I accept a lot of the charges relate to event around the time of signing the player in July 2009 but I thought you would have known that it is not uncommen for the FA to backdate charges against a club. Luton Town for instance were charged with alledged infringments of FA regulations regarding unlicensed agents and improper payments to agent between July 2004 and February 2007. Luton eventually lost their FL status as a result of point deductions from both the FA and FL and as I believe each and every club involved in the FL or FA competitions has an absolute responsibility to act AT ALL TIMES WITH THE RULES AND REGULATIONS I have no sympathy for clubs who are foundto have breached them.

It may be that I spent over 20 years in football administration but I passiontately believe in the integrity of the sport we all love and the competitions our club takes part in. I can tell you this IF we messed up our last 2 games and the Jacks finished ahead of us and get promoted because QPR have points deducted I would say well done to them because having played within the rules and regulations and IMO will be promoted on merit, if QPR are found guilty any merit they have earned on the pitch is totally devalued by their behaviour off it.

Remember they are charged deliberately submitting false documentation to the FA Investigation department in September 2010 in my opinion any club found guilty of that has lost all respect for the National Association and the competitions it takes part in and I hope the FA absolutely throw the book at them.

If that charge is proven during the IRC of course.

Not a personal dig Carl I think you are a top poster on this board but please please think again on this point THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME AND IT'S COMPETITIONS MUST COME BEFORE ALL ELSE.

If found guilty then I agree QPR deserve whatever punishment the FL find necessary but my point was that many City fans are getting a little carried away by the whole affair when if we are honest, yes we did not break rules, but ask yourself this, when we signed Craig Bellamy was it right, morally ?

Ok I admit football is far from a morally correct business but maybe that is where I am old fashioned.

We owed money left right and centre and in many cases still do, I am just surprised at the many responses on here regarding QPR and I do wonder would we as a set of fans have such an interest if we were not a point off the automatics ?

carl

dont forget craig's role in this he wanted to come and he engineered the transfer to make it happen

Because no one came forward did they. It was rumoured that Tottenham and Everton were interested but did they come forward to annouce their interest? No they did not, why becuase Man city would have not allowed it to happen.

for bellamy this was his best choice. as well as family matters. on the money side of things, the mentioned teams.would not have paid bellamy 90thousand a week, so coming to cardiff was a money factor as well. close to family. still getting 90thousand a week

Agreed.

Man City were reluctant to loan him out to a premier club unless someone brought him. No premier club were intersted in buying him due ot his injuries. Man City were stuck with a guy they could not afford to have in their squad as they would have been lucky to get 1 game out of 2 from him.

Although Man City are paying a large proportion of his wages they have done well out of the deal as now they will have a fit Bellamy come the end of the season witohut the injuries. It trhey take him bakc they will sell him on and recoup their money.

That throughout all this talk of QPR and cheating etc.

Remember how many clubs were gunning for us when we signed Craig Bellamy.

We do not pay anywhere near a percentage of his wages before it is deemed morally correct and I am certain that the rules regarding loan signings will change this Summer as a result.

I am not saying that we have cheated in any way but are we right to take the moral high ground when, let's be honest, we would be going mental if another club had done what we have done throughout this season.

Yes QPR may have broken rules but they were broken in August 2009, not this season and as far as I am concerned they are worthy Champions and if we are to gain promotion automatically then I hope we do it on merit.

I am not saying I would take promotion via default but I certainly would not celebrate it and I think that way of promotion would cause problems amongst City fans as those who want DJ out would claim he has ultimately failed and he only got up by default.

out of 5000 plus posts this is by far your worse

It just seems to me that many City fans are looking at the QPR case as the only way of promotion and I hope that we do it on merit, not just for us as fans but the club in general and DJ

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

Because Vincent Tan pays Bellamy's wages that doesn't mean he owns his economic rights (Manchester City do and they have agreed to loan him to Cardiff City).

Faulin's economic rights were owned by a South American Agency up until October 2010 and it appears that QPR tried to decieve the FA that they had full economic right well before they actually did.

That throughout all this talk of QPR and cheating etc.

Remember how many clubs were gunning for us when we signed Craig Bellamy.

We do not pay anywhere near a percentage of his wages before it is deemed morally correct and I am certain that the rules regarding loan signings will change this Summer as a result.

I am not saying that we have cheated in any way but are we right to take the moral high ground when, let's be honest, we would be going mental if another club had done what we have done throughout this season.

Yes QPR may have broken rules but they were broken in August 2009, not this season and as far as I am concerned they are worthy Champions and if we are to gain promotion automatically then I hope we do it on merit.

I am not saying I would take promotion via default but I certainly would not celebrate it and I think that way of promotion would cause problems amongst City fans as those who want DJ out would claim he has ultimately failed and he only got up by default.

out of 5000 plus posts this is by far your worse

Thank You

It just seems to me that many City fans are looking at the QPR case as the only way of promotion and I hope that we do it on merit, not just for us as fans but the club in general and DJ

Wrong again Carl.

i would say the majority of us want to go up in 2nd, that is on merit. However if we fail to get 2nd then the majority of us will take the default option.

It just seems to me that many City fans are looking at the QPR case as the only way of promotion and I hope that we do it on merit, not just for us as fans but the club in general and DJ

But at the end of the day you know full well you'd be happy to take it if the point deduction happened, we all would. Get up there at any cost as far as Im concerned.

It just seems to me that many City fans are looking at the QPR case as the only way of promotion and I hope that we do it on merit, not just for us as fans but the club in general and DJ

Of course it would be great to do it on merit.

If the charges against QPR are proven, tell us what the alternative is. If simply a fine, then why don't we break every rule with Tan bankrolling any fine?

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

how can a loan be considered ownership craig is owned by manchester city

carl

dont forget craig's role in this he wanted to come and he engineered the transfer to make it happen

Steve I fully understand Craig's role as you know. My point to others was that they say no other club would pay the wages that we would pay and I am saying that is ludicrous, of course they would have.

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

how can a loan be considered ownership craig is owned by manchester city

I am asking can it be likened too, in that the wages are being paid for by elsewhere and we as a club are not paying one penny towards it, unless we gain promotion this season.

cardiff city have done absolutely nothing morally wrong. Nothing.

Man City had a player they wanted shot of, he can be a disruptive bugger.
They didnt want to sell him to a Premiership side for obvious reasons. He
is the sort to come back and bite you on the arse. Furthermore, his injury
would have caused a problem in any long term deals or sale. So Man City
saw an ideal way to get him out of their hair. Perfectly within the rules.
There is NOT ONE CLUB in this league would have turned round and said
"Oh I feel a bit cheesy getting a player like this, so thanks but no thanks!"
Cardiff did everything above board, to the letter. and were still dragged
over the coals.

Gianni Paladini has been in hot water on numerous occasions for his murky
dealings, he was once a dodgy agent, he did dodgy deals with dodgy agents
and the whole Forlain episode is the result of more dodgy dealings. They
have been caught with their pants down. Not only that but sooner than holding
their hands up they dug a deeper hole by falsifying documents to cover their
tracks. Thats Paladini to a tee. Thinks he can bullshit his way out of anything.

Its a shame for QPR, but its not our fault he's the Chairman there, Cardiff City
didnt appoint him.


if we were tenth now, id still be saying the same thing. Not only did this greaseball
break the rules, he lied about breaking them. Had he immediately held his hands up,
QPR would probably been docked 10 points two months ago, and theyd probably STILL
be top now!!! But his way is to lie and cheat and con. He is the Italian Peter Ridsdale
and he gets everything he deserves. So NO, we are a million times removed from what
QPR have done.

It just seems to me that many City fans are looking at the QPR case as the only way of promotion and I hope that we do it on merit, not just for us as fans but the club in general and DJ

I'm sorry that's not the case, what 'many City fans are looking for' is that if QPR are found to have cheated they are dealt with in the correct manner.

But do you believe that the majority would care should we be mid table ?

I'm not sure but my experience tellsme most, not all people, only show interest in things that affect them so probably not. But I also believe there will be many people who will be interested in the outcome of this case like myself.

Let me tell you something about myself many years ago my son was playing for his local youth club in a County FA Cup Competition, it was the quarter final stage and the game was on a Wednesday evening. I was working but said I would do my best to get there but I couldn't promise. Anyway I managed to get away from work early and arrived during the 2nd half and was delighted to find my sons team not only winning but he had scored a goal, I was so proud of him until I realised the team manager was playing a ringer an overage player.

I knew what I had to do immediately and whilst the game was going on I telephoned the County FA and reported the breach of rules. After the game I approached the team manager and told him I had reported the ineligible overage player, he was the team managers son.

When I got home I spoke to my son and told him what I had done and why I had to do it he said its OK Dad I told the manager not to do it because if you found out you would report it. The team manager never spoke to me again my sons team were expelled from the competition and I never batted an eyelid, black and white you see, my son has always been fine about I had always taught him right from wrong. Nothing wrong with my moral barometer.

So please answer one thing for me Carl and never mind the reasons or motivations behind peoples interest or disinterest in this story.

Is the integrity of football better served by punishing a club found guilty of breaching regulations and if required stopping them from being promoted or is it better to adopt a more liberal namby pamby attitude of well they deserve to be top of the league because they have the best team and are there on merit.

I know which side of the fence I'm on hows your moral barometer Carl.

carl

dont forget craig's role in this he wanted to come and he engineered the transfer to make it happen

Steve I fully understand Craig's role as you know. My point to others was that they say no other club would pay the wages that we would pay and I am saying that is ludicrous, of course they would have.

Dont beleive that onw Carl. No other club in the premier would have had him because of his injuries. Also no other club in the championship would pay what we are paying.

Teams in the Prem would have wanted him.

Man City wouldn't want him loaned out to them.

Going back to a previous point about Paladini - he fired QPR's long term secretary who dealt with all transfers, let's not forget, to do the job himself...

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

how can a loan be considered ownership craig is owned by manchester city

I am asking can it be likened too, in that the wages are being paid for by elsewhere and we as a club are not paying one penny towards it, unless we gain promotion this season.

absolutely not and thats the way the football league see it as they sanctioned it.
i agree with you that other clubs would have paid craigs wages but you cant make a player go where he dosent want to.
craig wanted this move for himself and it suited man city to let it happen

carl

dont forget craig's role in this he wanted to come and he engineered the transfer to make it happen

Steve I fully understand Craig's role as you know. My point to others was that they say no other club would pay the wages that we would pay and I am saying that is ludicrous, of course they would have.

Dont beleive that onw Carl. No other club in the premier would have had him because of his injuries. Also no other club in the championship would pay what we are paying.

Cannot agree Ian, Stoke, Everton and Tottenham wanted him.

And do you think that QPR, of all clubs, would not have paid £21k pw for him ?