Red or Blue - Time To Move On

If there was a remote bit of news about the success of Tans rebranding then it would be shamelessly rammed down our throats at every opportunity. When Tan released his red vision there were many articles at the time (some posted here) whereby commercial industry experts commented that Tans plan was deeply flawed. Tan maybe a businessman but is certainly out of his depth in the footballing world especially as much of his thinking is built on no more than superstitions.
If anyone is in doubt about how barking this guy is then the following Tan quote should remove any of your doubts:

"So I say the bluebird was frightened by other symbols, other people have much bigger and stronger symbols, all kinds of symbols, the ram, what not, what not. You know I am a new football fan so I don't know all the symbols they use, but I say the bluebird symbol was frightened by the other symbols. Then came the strong dragon, the dragon protect the bluebird and the bluebird still remains there underneath the red dragon and the bluebird teach the red dragon how to fly higher, so the red dragon works together with the bluebird."

This is the biggest problem with the rebrand. It makes no commercial sense.

The owners are far more tapped into the potential of the club financially than we are. You are commenting on the rebrand, with few facts avaliable to you

The owner is just tapped. Tan has not got got a clue of the potential of our club at all and his recent antics have done nothing but damage us on the global stage. Sacking moody was proof enough for me and if you want more proof then Tan is certainly causing more harm than good by trying to tell Malky what tactics he should be adopting. The only potential that Tan can see is the blatant exploitation of our name and tradition to make himself a quick buck. This man has no interest in football other than treating us as an extention of his own name and ego who is only interested in self promotion at all costs.
The egotistical dictator should ship out before he causes us any more embarrassment and before all you Tan appeasers comment further remember that this forum has its roots in blue and as Annis has stated always will.

I think I said in my original thread that Tan looks on CCFC as purely a business venture, and I agree with you that he knows little about football as a sport, and has no particular love of our club. My understanding is that when he became involved, we were in dire financial difficulties, and the business probably had no financial value at that time. If as you say he is in it to make a quick buck, the club will have to be financially sound, and be worth a bob or two when he goes. Therefore, as a business venture he will think of it as a success, and hopefully the new owners will be able to take the club on from there. I would like to ask you a question, as I honestly don't know the answer to it. If Tan had turned down the offer to become involved, where do you think our club would be right now?

This is the biggest problem with the rebrand. It makes no commercial sense.

The owners are far more tapped into the potential of the club financially than we are. You are commenting on the rebrand, with few facts avaliable to you

The owner is just tapped. Tan has not got got a clue of the potential of our club at all and his recent antics have done nothing but damage us on the global stage. Sacking moody was proof enough for me and if you want more proof then Tan is certainly causing more harm than good by trying to tell Malky what tactics he should be adopting. The only potential that Tan can see is the blatant exploitation of our name and tradition to make himself a quick buck. This man has no interest in football other than treating us as an extention of his own name and ego who is only interested in self promotion at all costs.
The egotistical dictator should ship out before he causes us any more embarrassment and before all you Tan appeasers comment further remember that this forum has its roots in blue and as Annis has stated always will.

I think I said in my original thread that Tan looks on CCFC as purely a business venture, and I agree with you that he knows little about football as a sport, and has no particular love of our club. My understanding is that when he became involved, we were in dire financial difficulties, and the business probably had no financial value at that time. If as you say he is in it to make a quick buck, the club will have to be financially sound, and be worth a bob or two when he goes. Therefore, as a business venture he will think of it as a success, and hopefully the new owners will be able to take the club on from there. I would like to ask you a question, as I honestly don't know the answer to it. If Tan had turned down the offer to become involved, where do you think our club would be right now?

The honest answer is that I do not know. What I would say is that when we first turned down Tans rebrand, he did threaten not to fully invest as he intended but he also stated that he would look to bring in further investors and leave the club in a good state. For me this statement was enough to satisfy me that we were not facing an imminent threat of aministration and I personally would have been happy to ditch Tan at that stage.There were however fans who did not interpret Tans words in the same light as myself.

When Tan moves on from this ridiculous and unnecessary tearing away of our identity then the fans will move on. Until then? Get used to it.

When Tan moves on from this ridiculous and unnecessary tearing away of our identity then the fans will move on. Until then? Get used to it.

No real answer to my question then, just the usual crap that you keep spouting off on this and various other posts.

Never ever move to the red shite side, bluebirds in blue forever

This is the biggest problem with the rebrand. It makes no commercial sense.

The owners are far more tapped into the potential of the club financially than we are. You are commenting on the rebrand, with few facts avaliable to you

The owner is just tapped. Tan has not got got a clue of the potential of our club at all and his recent antics have done nothing but damage us on the global stage. Sacking moody was proof enough for me and if you want more proof then Tan is certainly causing more harm than good by trying to tell Malky what tactics he should be adopting. The only potential that Tan can see is the blatant exploitation of our name and tradition to make himself a quick buck. This man has no interest in football other than treating us as an extention of his own name and ego who is only interested in self promotion at all costs.
The egotistical dictator should ship out before he causes us any more embarrassment and before all you Tan appeasers comment further remember that this forum has its roots in blue and as Annis has stated always will.

I think I said in my original thread that Tan looks on CCFC as purely a business venture, and I agree with you that he knows little about football as a sport, and has no particular love of our club. My understanding is that when he became involved, we were in dire financial difficulties, and the business probably had no financial value at that time. If as you say he is in it to make a quick buck, the club will have to be financially sound, and be worth a bob or two when he goes. Therefore, as a business venture he will think of it as a success, and hopefully the new owners will be able to take the club on from there. I would like to ask you a question, as I honestly don't know the answer to it. If Tan had turned down the offer to become involved, where do you think our club would be right now?

The honest answer is that I do not know. What I would say is that when we first turned down Tans rebrand, he did threaten not to fully invest as he intended but he also stated that he would look to bring in further investors and leave the club in a good state. For me this statement was enough to satisfy me that we were not facing an imminent threat of aministration and I personally would have been happy to ditch Tan at that stage.There were however fans who did not interpret Tans words in the same light as myself.

i think we missed the boat there too....but all this tan out crap now?... Sunday the eyes of the world are on us....we can be viewed as desperately wanting blue back,and could well gain sympathy from the media in his homeland.or we can deflect it to tan out,and maybe seen as ungrateful idiots..im pretty certain there will be more blue than ever.....i have my fingers crossed that the thousands that are making one point dont get overshadowed by a dozen or so with a different agenda

Everyone knows that football is as much big business as it is sport. Cardiff City FC are a business that have a multi million pound turnover, and like all businesses are in a competitive dog eat dog world. Whether we like it or not, that world is changing, and the British football scene in 10 or 20 years time will be completely different to what it is now. We know what happens to businesses that don't move with the times, look at Woolworth, Bradford & Bingley, the British motorbike industry etc. etc. Plenty of companies have had to carry out rebranding exercises to ensure that they maintain commercial viability. Lloyds Bank for example have been branded green, then blue, now green again with the return of the black horse. Vincent Tan looks at Cardiff City as purely a business venture, and he needs a successful club to ensure he gets a good return on his investment. Whether he succeeds or fails remains to be seen. I would prefer to see the team play in Blue like most other supporters would, but we have to decide whether or not we want a football team playing at the highest level, or watch the likes of Hartlepool, Fleetwood and Newport on a regular basis. The leagues are growing further apart, and the money available for the top teams will continue to grow, while there will be less and less for the lower leagues. I can't see 92 league sides still in existence in 10 or 15 years time. If we want to be part of the top tiers of football, we are going to have to accept that change is inevitable, and move with the time, or return to playing unfashionable sides in front of four or five thousand people again.

Great post and something half the brain dead on here don't realise I have lots of posts in this mould that get shot down cos of tradition and indentity, yes I appreciate that but financially viable is more important than colour no point turning over £1 and continually spending £2 your only going to go bust

I've always said u sink or swim and I agree with you that there won't be 92 clubs left in 10 years plus

I no Newport county are still struggling and they are now back in football league they have a millionaire backer now but season tickets rising regardless of what league they are in next season cos they can't generate enough revenue

It's a business and change is always needed

End of

No.

Great response from the man who has an opinion on everything finally stumped chuckles by someone with a but of business knowledge

All I can say after reading all three pages is some right tosh on here

Are people really naive enough to think that the rebrand would raise revenue almost immediately?

It was never going to do that, however what tan has done is create other streams of income, advertising is far greater around the stadium that it's ever been with Langston now gone so to speak if expect naming rights to be big on the agenda as well generating millions, merchandise which people bang on about was never going to grow, not within the first 2/3 years anyway due to strong opposition to the colour change however we are selling shirts in Asia and the more successful we become the more we will sell eventually note the words eventually!

We all know merchandise is a small percentage of the revenue we receive probably less than 1% of overall revenue the bulk is tv rights followed by ticket sales, staying on the premiership puts bums on seats and bums on seats = higher revenue, higher league positions also generate more prize money better finishes attract bigger sponsorships and so on

The rebrand was just to get the media talking that's my belief! To get everyone talking and thinking about Cardiff city and you know what it's still working and vinny must be laughing his tits off at it!

Like i said it will take 20 years of success on red before turnover of merchandise reaches even 5% of total annual turnover that's not why he done it controversy was the reason and like I said premiership football guarantees bums on seats and those who fail to attend due to colour are easily replaced by others that's tans plan, you won't change that the more u protest and fill forums up with continual bollocks the more he loves it as we get more media attention which puts more eyes on the club

It's a master stroke really the more you think about it

Stadium expansion underway another 8000 seats at £40 a ticket per game

Do the math?

8000 x £40 = £320,000 per match

£320,000 x 19 home games = £6,080,000 per annum

Programmes food merchandise of new fans

Lot of extra revenue and that only comes with staying up of course

Adds value to the balance sheets value to shares and vinny sells up eventually making a handsome profit

That's the VT master plan working so far

Give him 3 years he'll be gone but his legacy will last a lifetime as time he goes stadium will be red 20,000 new fans embracing red = by by blue = vinny wins

No.

Great response from the man who has an opinion on everything finally stumped chuckles by someone with a but of business knowledge

What are you babbling on about now?

"Time to move on" & my answer was no.

Considering you want me banned, you jump on my every post.

This is the biggest problem with the rebrand. It makes no commercial sense.

The owners are far more tapped into the potential of the club financially than we are. You are commenting on the rebrand, with few facts avaliable to you

The owner is just tapped. Tan has not got got a clue of the potential of our club at all and his recent antics have done nothing but damage us on the global stage. Sacking moody was proof enough for me and if you want more proof then Tan is certainly causing more harm than good by trying to tell Malky what tactics he should be adopting. The only potential that Tan can see is the blatant exploitation of our name and tradition to make himself a quick buck. This man has no interest in football other than treating us as an extention of his own name and ego who is only interested in self promotion at all costs.
The egotistical dictator should ship out before he causes us any more embarrassment and before all you Tan appeasers comment further remember that this forum has its roots in blue and as Annis has stated always will.

I think I said in my original thread that Tan looks on CCFC as purely a business venture, and I agree with you that he knows little about football as a sport, and has no particular love of our club. My understanding is that when he became involved, we were in dire financial difficulties, and the business probably had no financial value at that time. If as you say he is in it to make a quick buck, the club will have to be financially sound, and be worth a bob or two when he goes. Therefore, as a business venture he will think of it as a success, and hopefully the new owners will be able to take the club on from there. I would like to ask you a question, as I honestly don't know the answer to it. If Tan had turned down the offer to become involved, where do you think our club would be right now?

The honest answer is that I do not know. What I would say is that when we first turned down Tans rebrand, he did threaten not to fully invest as he intended but he also stated that he would look to bring in further investors and leave the club in a good state. For me this statement was enough to satisfy me that we were not facing an imminent threat of aministration and I personally would have been happy to ditch Tan at that stage.There were however fans who did not interpret Tans words in the same light as myself.

i think we missed the boat there too....but all this tan out crap now?... Sunday the eyes of the world are on us....we can be viewed as desperately wanting blue back,and could well gain sympathy from the media in his homeland.or we can deflect it to tan out,and maybe seen as ungrateful idiots..im pretty certain there will be more blue than ever.....i have my fingers crossed that the thousands that are making one point dont get overshadowed by a dozen or so with a different agenda

The reason that the calls for Tan out are now more prominent is that many of the red or dead brigade are now convinced that we are now not financially vunerable as we once were previously. In all fairness many of these fans did tell us at the time that the only reason that they were accepting the rebrand was because we were not on a stable financial footing at the time and that once we were then they would then lend their support into getting us back to blue.

This is the biggest problem with the rebrand. It makes no commercial sense.

The owners are far more tapped into the potential of the club financially than we are. You are commenting on the rebrand, with few facts avaliable to you

The owner is just tapped. Tan has not got got a clue of the potential of our club at all and his recent antics have done nothing but damage us on the global stage. Sacking moody was proof enough for me and if you want more proof then Tan is certainly causing more harm than good by trying to tell Malky what tactics he should be adopting. The only potential that Tan can see is the blatant exploitation of our name and tradition to make himself a quick buck. This man has no interest in football other than treating us as an extention of his own name and ego who is only interested in self promotion at all costs.
The egotistical dictator should ship out before he causes us any more embarrassment and before all you Tan appeasers comment further remember that this forum has its roots in blue and as Annis has stated always will.

I think I said in my original thread that Tan looks on CCFC as purely a business venture, and I agree with you that he knows little about football as a sport, and has no particular love of our club. My understanding is that when he became involved, we were in dire financial difficulties, and the business probably had no financial value at that time. If as you say he is in it to make a quick buck, the club will have to be financially sound, and be worth a bob or two when he goes. Therefore, as a business venture he will think of it as a success, and hopefully the new owners will be able to take the club on from there. I would like to ask you a question, as I honestly don't know the answer to it. If Tan had turned down the offer to become involved, where do you think our club would be right now?

The honest answer is that I do not know. What I would say is that when we first turned down Tans rebrand, he did threaten not to fully invest as he intended but he also stated that he would look to bring in further investors and leave the club in a good state. For me this statement was enough to satisfy me that we were not facing an imminent threat of aministration and I personally would have been happy to ditch Tan at that stage.There were however fans who did not interpret Tans words in the same light as myself.

i think we missed the boat there too....but all this tan out crap now?... Sunday the eyes of the world are on us....we can be viewed as desperately wanting blue back,and could well gain sympathy from the media in his homeland.or we can deflect it to tan out,and maybe seen as ungrateful idiots..im pretty certain there will be more blue than ever.....i have my fingers crossed that the thousands that are making one point dont get overshadowed by a dozen or so with a different agenda

The reason that the calls for Tan out are now more prominent is that many of the red or dead brigade are now convinced that we are now not financially vunerable as we once were previously. In all fairness many of these fans did tell us at the time that the only reason that they were accepting the rebrand was because we were not on a stable financial footing at the time and that once we were then they would then lend their support into getting us back to blue.

i would love BU to get our colours back..i would love the march to be thousands not hundreds,but reading opinions on here,seems the majority feel as i do regarding Tan out,its a step too far,makes no sense and prevents BU becoming what they set out to be, a group that actually unites the fans.as chuckles points out a thousand times a day,they have not put it in an official statement that tan out is one of the aims, but surely as a group that wants to unite the fans behind blue you would think a statement to clarify the groups views on tan out wouldnt go a miss......it deffo is a big issue, far from being united,this issue has divided.and it doesnt even make sense

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

he isnt a committee member who has been voted in
or an employee of the club.
he owns it. so yes it is a wonder. i own my house, and i own other premises . i can not even imagine anyone thinking that by turning up with OUT banners that id actually go and give them the keys.
and strangely i doubt the people with this notion would think it sane to turn up at someones business or house and act like this.
JUST because its a football club the law of the land isnt different.it applies exactly the same.
Cardiff City Football Club..is im afraid one of mr tans businesses . exactly the same as mr davies owns the butchers, mr jones owns the bakers..

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

he isnt a committee member who has been voted in
or an employee of the club.
he owns it. so yes it is a wonder. i own my house, and i own other premises . i can not even imagine anyone thinking that by turning up with OUT banners that id actually go and give them the keys.
and strangely i doubt the people with this notion would think it sane to turn up at someones business or house and act like this.
JUST because its a football club the law of the land isnt different.it applies exactly the same.
Cardiff City Football Club..is im afraid one of mr tans businesses . exactly the same as mr davies owns the butchers, mr jones owns the bakers..

Thats not a very good analogy. You have said nothing to convince me that we will ever be able to go back to blue and retain Tan as well so as previously stated Tan out is the only answer at present.

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

he isnt a committee member who has been voted in
or an employee of the club.
he owns it. so yes it is a wonder. i own my house, and i own other premises . i can not even imagine anyone thinking that by turning up with OUT banners that id actually go and give them the keys.
and strangely i doubt the people with this notion would think it sane to turn up at someones business or house and act like this.
JUST because its a football club the law of the land isnt different.it applies exactly the same.
Cardiff City Football Club..is im afraid one of mr tans businesses . exactly the same as mr davies owns the butchers, mr jones owns the bakers..

Thats not a very good analogy. You have said nothing to convince me that we will ever be able to go back to blue and retain Tan as well so as previously stated Tan out is the only answer at present.

at the moment the ground game by game is turning more and more blue. when it starts going the other way. you and people like you will be at fault as much as tan himself

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

he isnt a committee member who has been voted in
or an employee of the club.
he owns it. so yes it is a wonder. i own my house, and i own other premises . i can not even imagine anyone thinking that by turning up with OUT banners that id actually go and give them the keys.
and strangely i doubt the people with this notion would think it sane to turn up at someones business or house and act like this.
JUST because its a football club the law of the land isnt different.it applies exactly the same.
Cardiff City Football Club..is im afraid one of mr tans businesses . exactly the same as mr davies owns the butchers, mr jones owns the bakers..

Thats not a very good analogy. You have said nothing to convince me that we will ever be able to go back to blue and retain Tan as well so as previously stated Tan out is the only answer at present.

at the moment the ground game by game is turning more and more blue. when it starts going the other way. you and people like you will be at fault as much as tan himself

No need to worry about the ground going back to red as it won't happen now. I will agree that there is more blue at each game but even if everyone wore blue then do you think Tan would still take any notice?

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

It's fair enough that you would like Tan to go, but you still need an alternative. I know a lot of people think that Tan is slightly mad, and I would agree as I think anyone prepared to pump money into a football club must have a cell or two missing. Before he goes, you need to find another eccentric person prepared to throw his money around. Looking around at the owners of other clubs, there seem to be a lot of them who appear slightly strange to say the least, and there are plenty of supporters around who are unhappy with their club owners. I don't think it will be that easy to find a viable replacement, and virtually impossible to find someone who will come in for the genuine love of the club. It will still be someone looking for a profit. I still think that blue will sell abroad as much as red, and can't see any harm in changing back to our original colours.

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

It's fair enough that you would like Tan to go, but you still need an alternative. I know a lot of people think that Tan is slightly mad, and I would agree as I think anyone prepared to pump money into a football club must have a cell or two missing. Before he goes, you need to find another eccentric person prepared to throw his money around. Looking around at the owners of other clubs, there seem to be a lot of them who appear slightly strange to say the least, and there are plenty of supporters around who are unhappy with their club owners. I don't think it will be that easy to find a viable replacement, and virtually impossible to find someone who will come in for the genuine love of the club. It will still be someone looking for a profit. I still think that blue will sell abroad as much as red, and can't see any harm in changing back to our original colours.

Can't argue with any of that.

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

It's fair enough that you would like Tan to go, but you still need an alternative. I know a lot of people think that Tan is slightly mad, and I would agree as I think anyone prepared to pump money into a football club must have a cell or two missing. Before he goes, you need to find another eccentric person prepared to throw his money around. Looking around at the owners of other clubs, there seem to be a lot of them who appear slightly strange to say the least, and there are plenty of supporters around who are unhappy with their club owners. I don't think it will be that easy to find a viable replacement, and virtually impossible to find someone who will come in for the genuine love of the club. It will still be someone looking for a profit. I still think that blue will sell abroad as much as red, and can't see any harm in changing back to our original colours.

good post

I am sure if Tan were to compromise then most fans would choose to keep him but the distain and contempt he has shown towards us indicates this will never happen so there is no alternative left as if we want blue back then Tan has to go. I also do not think that it is just a colour thing anymore as quite a few fans have now indicated that they have no confidence in him over the way he has acted over the past few weeks. You cannot ignore the general feeling of mistrust and dissatisfaction Tan has attracted recently so its no wonder there are calls for him to go. These calls will not diminish and will only grow stronger while he remains.

It's fair enough that you would like Tan to go, but you still need an alternative. I know a lot of people think that Tan is slightly mad, and I would agree as I think anyone prepared to pump money into a football club must have a cell or two missing. Before he goes, you need to find another eccentric person prepared to throw his money around. Looking around at the owners of other clubs, there seem to be a lot of them who appear slightly strange to say the least, and there are plenty of supporters around who are unhappy with their club owners. I don't think it will be that easy to find a viable replacement, and virtually impossible to find someone who will come in for the genuine love of the club. It will still be someone looking for a profit. I still think that blue will sell abroad as much as red, and can't see any harm in changing back to our original colours.

good post

Two separate points of view here, nothing wrong with that. Shame that there is a bit of abuse being thrown around between people who support the same team, maybe that should be saved for the jacks. Everyone entitled to a point of view, but no point in just saying Tan in or Tan out without an alternative plan in place. Whatever happens, we need to look at the outcome should we get what we are asking for eg. where will we be in 12 months time with Tan at the helm, and vice versa.