The stats from Craven Cottage have been compiled

Of course its silly, if anyone else had said it you wouldnt have tried to make an argument against it - its common sense. It was only a few short months ago that there was talk on this board of Everton being a sideward step for Malky

Everton are not a big gun. Their average league finish since year 2000/01 is 9th (8.75), liverpool average is 4th (4.5). Want me to go nto recent trophy wins and european forays?

Swansea and wigan won cups last season. Are they a big guns ? My thoughts are based on recent league finishes and what their team is today, not how they did with a completely different team 12 or 13 years ago!

Your entitled to your opinion, but I'm glad we've got Everton out of the way and held them to a deserved point. IMO that's 4 points we've taken from 2 of the big guns. Lets see how it all unfolds

No neither are because we havent done it on a consistant basis, obviously. The same sentiment that goes to why Everton are not a big gun based on their recent history (1 solitary top 4 finish since the Prem began)

How you can attempt to call a team one of the big guns - that has finished in the top 4 ONCE in the premier leagues 20 odd year history is beyond me and claiming they have more of a case than Liverpool who consistently challenge the top 4 im afraid is just silly and purely a case of seeing the username and not the content.

Being glad you got everton out of the way is one thing, im glad we have wba away out of the way however just because of that id never even consider to call them one of the big guns.

Everton are not one of the big guns, that isnt an opinion - thats just an obvious common sense statement backed by historical evidence, thay have been in the champions league once in 20 years

Of course its silly, if anyone else had said it you wouldnt have tried to make an argument against it - its common sense. It was only a few short months ago that there was talk on this board of Everton being a sideward step for Malky

Everton are not a big gun. Their average league finish since year 2000/01 is 9th (8.75), liverpool average is 4th (4.5). Want me to go nto recent trophy wins and european forays?

Swansea and wigan won cups last season. Are they a big guns ? My thoughts are based on recent league finishes and what their team is today, not how they did with a completely different team 12 or 13 years ago!

Your entitled to your opinion, but I'm glad we've got Everton out of the way and held them to a deserved point. IMO that's 4 points we've taken from 2 of the big guns. Lets see how it all unfolds

No neither are because we havent done it on a consistant basis, obviously. The same sentiment that goes to why Everton are not a big gun based on their recent history (1 solitary top 4 finish since the Prem began)

How you can attempt to call a team one of the big guns - that has finished in the top 4 ONCE in the premier leagues 20 odd year history is beyond me and claiming they have more of a case than Liverpool who consistently challenge the top 4 im afraid is just silly and purely a case of seeing the username and not the content.

Being glad you got everton out of the way is one thing, im glad we have wba away out of the way however just because of that id never even consider to call them one of the big guns.

Everton are not one of the big guns, that isnt an opinion - thats just an obvious common sense statement backed by historical evidence, thay have been in the champions league once in 20 years

It's called being in the present, not harping back to history that has little relevance as the teams were completely different. Its about this season with the current squads. By your logic, spurs finished on average 8th from 2000/01, and have only been close to CL qualification in recent years (been in it once i believe) yet they are a big gun

So its about the present yet you claim everton are a big gun because they finished 6th/7th in the PAST 2 years.

Past league success has a knock on effect which is why Liverpool consistently attract the better player, they have a history of success. If they werent consistently in and around the champions league places then they wouldn't be able to sign the likes of suarez - thats the difference.

I am literally in awe that you are still debating the fact Everton are on of the premier leagues big guns when their highest ever Premier League finish is 4th which they achieved ONCE

(Please dont try and tell me you are now attempting to say Everton are better than Spurs too )

Last edited by RoathMagic on Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

So its about the present yet you claim everton are a big gun because they finished 6th/7th in the PAST 2 years.

Past league success has a knock on effect which is why Liverpool consistently attract the better player, they have a history of success. If they werent consistently in and around the champions league places then they wouldn't be able to sign the likes of suarez - thats the difference.

I am literally in awe that you are still debating the fact Everton are on of the premier leagues big guns when their highest ever Premier League finish is 4th which they achieved ONCE

Any comment on spurs?

I think a PL team capable of finishing top 6 is a big gun, yes. It's called am opinion

So its about the present yet you claim everton are a big gun because they finished 6th/7th in the PAST 2 years.

Past league success has a knock on effect which is why Liverpool consistently attract the better player, they have a history of success. If they werent consistently in and around the champions league places then they wouldn't be able to sign the likes of suarez - thats the difference.

I am literally in awe that you are still debating the fact Everton are on of the premier leagues big guns when their highest ever Premier League finish is 4th which they achieved ONCE

Any comment on spurs?

I think a PL team capable of finishing top 6 is a big gun, yes. It's called am opinion

Yep edited it, last paragraph at the bottom. Im just shocked you have now moved on to trying to tell me Everton are better than Spurs too

You are not a big gun by finishing 6th - 9th consistently with never a hope of top 4. (Once). The BIGGEST goal for clubs is to finish top 4, something the 6 teams i mention are massive favourites to do and are in their own mini league.

Like i say, everton are 12-1 to finish in the top 4 compared to pretty much even money and less for the other 6. If we have all got it wrong then cash in... Make sure you post it up here wont you

So its about the present yet you claim everton are a big gun because they finished 6th/7th in the PAST 2 years.

Past league success has a knock on effect which is why Liverpool consistently attract the better player, they have a history of success. If they werent consistently in and around the champions league places then they wouldn't be able to sign the likes of suarez - thats the difference.

I am literally in awe that you are still debating the fact Everton are on of the premier leagues big guns when their highest ever Premier League finish is 4th which they achieved ONCE

Any comment on spurs?

I think a PL team capable of finishing top 6 is a big gun, yes. It's called am opinion

Yep edited it, last paragraph at the bottom. Im just shocked you have now moved on to trying to tell me Everton are better than Spurs too

You are not a big gun by finishing 6th - 9th consistently with never a hope of top 4. (Once). The BIGGEST goal for clubs is to finish top 4, something the 6 teams i mention are massive favourites to do and are in their own mini league.

Like i say, everton are 12-1 to finish in the top 4 compared to pretty much even money and less for the other 6. If we have all got it wrong then cash in... Make sure you post it up here wont you

I never said Everton were better than spurs, just used your logic to measure them as wondered how they were a big gun when their average position was 8th and been in the CL ONCE. So by your definition, spurs are not a big gun?

They are because they are currently big favourites to finish in the champions league spots and one of the favourites for the title... Something everton have never had. To suggest one of the favourites for the title is not a big gun is lunacy.

Surely this is obvious?

Right, so history doesn't matter now then it's about this season. Shock horror roath moves the goalposts
And it's the bookies who decide who the big guns are?

I understand.

Except that paddy power have spurs to finish 5th, hardly favourites for the title or a CL spot
Of course bookies vary, just like opinion can

In terms of the other big guns, Liverpool are down for 6th and Everton 7th.

Plus of course, the bookies never get it wrong.
Lets see what happens

Right, so history doesn't matter now then it's about this season. Shock horror roath moves the goalposts
And it's the bookies who decide who the big guns are?

I understand.

Except that paddy power have spurs to finish 5th, hardly favourites for the title or a CL spot
Of course bookies vary, just like opinion can

In terms of the other big guns, Liverpool are down for 6th and Everton 7th.

Plus of course, the bookies never get it wrong.
Lets see what happens

Its all combined, as you full well know.

Its like saying being a big club is based on attendances alone. There are many factors into what makes a big club. Just like there are many factors that go into who counts as one of the big guns. Recent high champions league challenges, cup wins and current favourites for the title are all factors.

Everton have none of the above, they have never been one of the favourites for the title, they have never consistantly challenged or finished in the top 4 and have never had consistant european success.

Title odds......

Man City 9-4
Chelsea 3-1
Arsenal 4-1
Man Utd 6-1
Tottenham 8-1
Liverpool 12-1
......
Everton 150-1

Im all for sensibke debate but your just arguing for arguments sake here

Right, so history doesn't matter now then it's about this season. Shock horror roath moves the goalposts
And it's the bookies who decide who the big guns are?

I understand.

Except that paddy power have spurs to finish 5th, hardly favourites for the title or a CL spot
Of course bookies vary, just like opinion can

In terms of the other big guns, Liverpool are down for 6th and Everton 7th.

Plus of course, the bookies never get it wrong.
Lets see what happens

Its all combined, as you full well know.

Its like saying being a big club is based on attendances alone. There are many factors into what makes a big club. Just like there are many factors that go into who counts as one of the big guns. Recent high champions league challenges, cup wins and current favourites for the title are all factors.

Everton have none of the above, they have never been one of the favourites for the title, they have never consistantly challenged or finished in the top 4 and have never had consistant european success.

Title odds......

Man City 9-4
Chelsea 3-1
Arsenal 4-1
Man Utd 6-1
Tottenham 8-1
Liverpool 12-1
......
Everton 150-1

Im all for sensibke debate but your just arguing for arguments sake here

And neither have spurs

Spurs are odds on for a champions league finish, have won 4 trophies since 1991, are one of the favourites for the title (8-1 compared to evertons 150-1), and have finished in the top 4 or one place outside for the past 4 seasons and odds on to make it 5

Spurs are odds on for a champions league finish, are one of the favourites for the title (8-1 compared to evertons 150-1), and have finished in the top 4 or one place outside for the past 4 seasons and odds on to make it 5

They are not odds on, and they are 5th favourites.
Everton are favourites to finish 7th, it doesn't mean they will. I think they have a great chance to finish higher, they are a good side this season, and based on this they are a big gun.

What happened to your "since 2001" stats or don't they suit anymore?

Spurs are odds on for a champions league finish, are one of the favourites for the title (8-1 compared to evertons 150-1), and have finished in the top 4 or one place outside for the past 4 seasons and odds on to make it 5

They are not odds on, and they are 5th favourites.
Everton are favourites to finish 7th, it doesn't mean they will. I think they have a great chance to finish higher, they are a good side this season, and based on this they are a big gun.

What happened to your "since 2001" stats or don't they suit anymore?

They are 10/11 - thats odds on

And yes they are 5th favourites in the group of the big 6, 8-1. Outside the big 6 odds go from 150-1 which shows the difference between the 6 clubs i mention and then the rest of them. This is obvious and painful to even entertain.

Everton are a good side, you are correct. As are swansea, it doesnt make us a big gun however as we are never consistently in the champions league spots.

You think using stats from 2001 suited me? I used that as a comparison for Liverpool and Everton.... you do realise that prior to 2001 Everton barely had a top 12 finish let alone a top 6 i used that date as its when everton got better, i was helping you.

I can go from the beginning of the prem if you like but it will only make your silly argumentative opinion look even more silly and argumentative... Up to you

Spurs are odds on for a champions league finish, are one of the favourites for the title (8-1 compared to evertons 150-1), and have finished in the top 4 or one place outside for the past 4 seasons and odds on to make it 5

They are not odds on, and they are 5th favourites.
Everton are favourites to finish 7th, it doesn't mean they will. I think they have a great chance to finish higher, they are a good side this season, and based on this they are a big gun.

What happened to your "since 2001" stats or don't they suit anymore?

They are 10/11 - thats odds on

And yes they are 5th favourites in the group of the big 6, 8-1. Outside the big 6 odds go from 150-1 which shows the difference between the 6 clubs i mention and then the rest of them. This is obvious and painful to even entertain.

Everton are a good side, you are correct. As are swansea, it doesnt make us a big gun however as we are never consistently in the champions league spots.

You think using stats from 2001 suited me? I used that as a comparison for Liverpool and Everton.... you do realise that prior to 2001 Everton barely had a top 12 finish let alone a top 6 i used that date as its when everton got better, i was helping you.

I can go from the beginning of the prem if you like but it will only make your silly argumentative opinion look even more silly and argumentative... Up to you

Oh so it was ok for Liverpool but when it showed spurs finished 8th on average it doesn't work
My stance was always relating it to recent times, especially this season. I never saw the relevance of looking back 13 years. You tried the history card that back fired on you. How going back to the beginning of the PL will make me look silly is beyond belief and just reiterates your obsession with stats as an armchair fan.
You just make it up as you go along.

Spurs are evens for top 4 with many bookies, inc my beloved paddy power.
Everton are a top side, a big gun. However you dress it up, at worst we've probably played 3 out of the top 7, maybe top 5 or 6 we just don't know. Bookies odds now mean nothing, they don't mean it's going to happen.

As for mentioning swansea

Oh so it was ok for Liverpool but when it showed spurs finished 8th on average it doesn't work

We have be through this have we not? It is not about average league position alone, tottenham a one of the favourites to win the league this year (8-1 compared to evertons 150-1), they have recently been in the champions league and beaten teams such as inter milan, they have finished in the top 4 twice in 4 years and 5th the other two seasons. This is why they are a big gun, they are a real bet for a champions league spot and even the title.


My stance was always relating it to recent times, especially this season. I never saw the relevance of looking back 13 years. You tried the history card that back fired on you. How going back to the beginning of the PL will make me look silly is beyond belief and just reiterates your obsession with stats as an armchair fan.

we have been through this too. Liverpools success 10 years ago has lead their reputation to increase and allowing them to aquire players such as Suarez. They have players playing for them now that were involved in a Champions league win ffs .... Evertons best position they have ever finished in the league is 4th and that happened once, the rest is a mix of 6th-16th , .

Spurs are evens for top 4 with many bookies, inc my beloved paddy power.
Everton are a top side, a big gun. However you dress it up, at worst we've probably played 3 out of the top 7, maybe top 5 or 6 we just don't know. Bookies odds now mean nothing, they don't mean it's going to happen.

doesnt matter what paddy power say. They are readily available at odds on prices. Everton are neither a top side nor are the a big gun for the obvious reasons highlighted above. Everton are not and never have been a big gun, so there is no dressing it up.

We have played 4 of the 6 big guns with odds of 12-1 or less for the title, you have played 2 of them in your 6 games while trying to claim another thats 150-1 and have never been in the title race ever

:

So we agree your average league position since 2001 was a load of bollocks and contradicted your own argument. Fair enough.

What players do Liverpool have that won the CL?
Gerrard and that's it!

I believe Everton will do well, finish 7th at the very least, and are a big gun.
Is there such a huge gap between teams in 6th and 7th? 2 points last season when Everton finished 6th.

If history is relevant, then surely last season is more relevant than any other. The further back you go the further apart you get from today's squads. For me though it's about this season. We can argue all day, your passion I know, but only time will tell us how good Everton are. Having played 3 out of the likely top 7 (maybe 6 or 5) is a difficult start and we've come out of it ok with 4 points, very nearly 5.

So we agree your average league position since 2001 was a load of bollocks and contradicted your own argument. Fair enough.

it would be if used alone. But it wasnt used alone, there are endless reasons as to why liverpool are a big gun. Winning a recent champions league just one such example everton have never been in a title race.... Ever

What players do Liverpool have that won the CL?
Gerrard and that's it!

gerrard yep and up until a few months ago had carragher. Im showing you that the champions league win was recent enough to impact on todays liverpool team considering their driving force still plays for them. Im still amazed you dont think liverpool are a big gun

I believe Everton will do well, finish 7th at the very least, and are a big gun.
Is there such a huge gap between teams in 6th and 7th? 2 points last season when Everton finished 6th.

i dont care what you believe. Everton are not a big gun and never have been. They have only finished 4th once in their prem history, have hardly ever competed in the premier european competition or even challenged to be in it with any real threat. They are not a big gun.

If history is relevant, then surely last season is more relevant than any other. The further back you go the further apart you get from today's squads. For me though it's about this season. We can argue all day, your passion I know, but only time will tell us how good Everton are. Having played 3 out of the likely top 7 (maybe 6 or 5) is a difficult start and we've come out of it ok with 4 points, very nearly 5.

recent history is completely relevant however, no ONE season is relevant. There must be a consistancy, you dont become a big gun by one season. Everton havent even had one of these big gun seasons to hold onto so im not sure why you keep refering to them finishing 6th, this doesnt make them a big gun.

Liverpool have recently challenged for the title, won the champions league and competed in it regularly.
Arsenal have won the title, been in a champions league final and are an ever present in the title race
Man Utd have won everything you wish to look at.
Chelsea have won the champions league and premier league amongst other trophies.
Man City have won the title and competed in the champions league and are faves for the title
Spurs have been in the top 4 in 2 of the last 4 seasons finishing 5th the other 2 times. They have also recently competed in the champions league and a real contender for the title this year

Everton usually finish 7th or 8th and thats about it.

Not a big gun.

Who cares how good a side were 15 years ago, it's where they will finish this season. I think Everton will be up there, at least top 7, and that makes them a big gun. Its only a label anyway, the point is we've played 3 out of the top 7 (maybe 6 or 5).
They were 6th last year and could well improve on that this year with the astute signings they have made and a new manager.

Only time will tell, or do the bookies decide who finishes where? Is there something I should know, a conspiracy?

Do I need I keep saying the same thing?

Who cares how good a side were 15 years ago, it's where they will finish this season. I think Everton will be up there, at least top 7, and that makes them a big gun. Its only a label anyway, the point is we've played 3 out of the top 7 (maybe 6 or 5).

been through this too havent we. Success in living memory increases the reputation of a club and thus becomes more attractive to potential players.

Everton have never been "up there". Once in their history have they finished 4th in the prem and thats it, usually in the past decade they are a high mid table finish before that it was even worse.

6th 7th 8th does not make a club a big gun


They were 6th last year and could well improve on that this year with the astute signings they have made and a new manager.

so if they do improve and do it consistently then they may become a big gun. But they havent.... So they are not.

Only time will tell, or do the bookies decide who finishes where? Is there something I should know, a conspiracy?

Do I need I keep saying the same thing?

time certainly will tell, and time so far has told us that everton are not a big gun

If Everton are such a mediocre team, how come Swansea have struggled every time against them?

If Everton are such a mediocre team, how come Swansea have struggled every time against them?

I didnt say they are mediocre, i said the obvious statement that they are not one of the big guns. They have never challenged for the title in their history and are mostly around high mid table.

We struggle against Norwich too, just one of those teams... And no .norwich arent a big gun either.

Who cares how good a side were 15 years ago, it's where they will finish this season. I think Everton will be up there, at least top 7, and that makes them a big gun. Its only a label anyway, the point is we've played 3 out of the top 7 (maybe 6 or 5).

been through this too havent we. Success in living memory increases the reputation of a club and thus becomes more attractive to potential players.

Everton have never been "up there". Once in their history have they finished 4th in the prem and thats it, usually in the past decade they are a high mid table finish before that it was even worse.

6th 7th 8th does not make a club a big gun


They were 6th last year and could well improve on that this year with the astute signings they have made and a new manager.

so if they do improve and do it consistently then they may become a big gun. But they havent.... So they are not.

Only time will tell, or do the bookies decide who finishes where? Is there something I should know, a conspiracy?

Do I need I keep saying the same thing?

time certainly will tell, and time so far has told us that everton are not a big gun

All about this season, not next or 15 years ago. If Everton finish top 6 or 7 then our thoughts that we've had a difficult start will have been proven, and in the context of this season secured Everton as big gun status

All about this season, not next or 15 years ago. If Everton finish top 6 or 7 then our thoughts that we've had a difficult start will have been proven, and in the context of this season secured Everton as big gun status

so you think Everton will be top 4 this season? As we have said, you dont become a big gun by being on the outskirts of the Europa league

Name your price

All about this season, not next or 15 years ago. If Everton finish top 6 or 7 then our thoughts that we've had a difficult start will have been proven, and in the context of this season secured Everton as big gun status

so you think Everton will be top 4 this season?

Name your price

Pretty sure I said top 6 or 7. Top 6 last year so who knows this year.

Why would I bet with you, don't you have a history of not paying up?

All about this season, not next or 15 years ago. If Everton finish top 6 or 7 then our thoughts that we've had a difficult start will have been proven, and in the context of this season secured Everton as big gun status

so you think Everton will be top 4 this season?

Name your price

Pretty sure I said top 6 or 7. Top 6 last year so who knows this year.

Why would I bet with you, don't you have a history of not paying up?

Well if its top 6 or 7 then they arent a big gun are they you say they are looking good and then back them to just miss out on the europa league or just scrape in... That isnt a big gun.

I dont have a history of not paying up, i always pay my bets. I asked for proof the other person paid in the form of a screenshot and it was refused... However you can bet with the bookies and post the bet here, cash in they have obviously got it wrong

All about this season, not next or 15 years ago. If Everton finish top 6 or 7 then our thoughts that we've had a difficult start will have been proven, and in the context of this season secured Everton as big gun status

so you think Everton will be top 4 this season?

Name your price

Pretty sure I said top 6 or 7. Top 6 last year so who knows this year.

Why would I bet with you, don't you have a history of not paying up?

Well if its top 6 or 7 then they arent a big gun are they you say they are looking good and then back them to just miss out on the europa league or just scrape in... That isnt a big gun.

I dont have a history of not paying up, i always pay my bets. I asked for proof the other person paid in the form of a screenshot and it was refused... However you can bet with the bookies and post the bet here, cash in they have obviously got it wrong

Depends on the definition. Time will tell.

Thought you hadn't paid up

Well you thought wrong.

And im sure you wont find many people with the definition of a bog gun as someone capable of finishing 7th. Man Utd, Liverpool, Tottenham, Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal are the big guns in their own champions league mini league... Nobody else is in this group.

Well you thought wrong.

And im sure you wont find many people with the definition of a bog gun as someone capable of finishing 7th. Man Utd, Liverpool, Tottenham, Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal are the big guns in their own champions league mini league... Nobody else is in this group.

And you would have said that last season or is it a new rule for this season?

Bog gun made me chuckle though

Well you thought wrong.

And im sure you wont find many people with the definition of a bog gun as someone capable of finishing 7th. Man Utd, Liverpool, Tottenham, Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal are the big guns in their own champions league mini league... Nobody else is in this group.

And you would have said that last season or is it a new rule for this season?

Bog gun made me chuckle though

Would have said what last season? Thatsbeing 7th doesnt make you a big gun, yes i would Just like nearly everyone else.

And simple mind i guess...

Well you thought wrong.

And im sure you wont find many people with the definition of a bog gun as someone capable of finishing 7th. Man Utd, Liverpool, Tottenham, Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal are the big guns in their own champions league mini league... Nobody else is in this group.

And you would have said that last season or is it a new rule for this season?

Bog gun made me chuckle though

Would have said what last season? Thatsbeing 7th doesnt make you a big gun, yes i would Just like nearly everyone else.

And simple mind i guess...

Cool, Everton were 6th so are a reigning big gun until this season decides otherwise