Is there a God?

I think man invented God out of desperation for clarity during the dark times, when science and reason was unheard of. However, there are things, such as Pascal's Wager, which give weight to a deity existing. So I don't know.

Yours sincerely
Morgan

How on earth does Blaise Pascal's wager give weight to a deity existing????

All it says, is if there is a God, you potentially gain everything by believing in him and lose nothing if he doesn't exist - whereas if he does exist and you don't believe in him, you will suffer eternal torment. Therefore, it's better to believe in him than not.

I can see why logically Pascal makes the point from a purely self-interest perspective, but how on earth does that give weight to him actually existing????

For me, I'm inclined to think that the evidence for Christianity is at the very least peruasive - too detailed to go in to in detail in a post like this, but briefly for the following reasons :

a) The evidence for the resurrection - its hard to see how the Church could have spread as it did with people dying for something that they would have known was patent nonsense if they hadn't seen what they thought was him resurrected. This only applies to the first Generation Christians, but that's the important part, given it was when it spread throughout the known world.

b) Old Testament prophecies that seem to be too conveniently 'fulfilled' in the New Testament to be purely coincidence.

c) The survival of the Jewish race (as predicted) even after they were dispersed from their ancient land and had to go to all 4 corners of the globe, and yet for the best part of 2000 years survived despite the most horrendous persecution suffered by any race, and then were relocated back in their ancient homeland (as predicted) against the most overwhelming odds.

However, whilst I find the 'evidence' persuasive, the theology of Christianity leaves me cold, as what it essentially says is those who are chosen to be Christian will live in bliss for eternity, and those that are not will be eternally tormented - this despite the fact that they never even asked to be born in the first place!

So, for me, I think its likely to be true but I could never support a theology such as the one that I believe Christianity teaches.

I voted "I don't know" in the vote, as I'm not certain if there is a God, but I find the likelihood of the Christian God being there to be persuasive because of the above points (but I'm not certain, and I hope against hope its not true), and I would never support him.

I'm influenced considerably by the writings of Hitchens, a self-proclaimed 'anti-theist'. Essentially, an individual who finds the prospect of a deity somewhat hideous, and is rather relieved that there is no significant evidence to prove such an existence.

I'm influenced considerably by the writings of Hitchens, a self-proclaimed 'anti-theist'. Essentially, an individual who finds the prospect of a deity somewhat hideous, and is rather relieved that there is no significant evidence to prove such an existence.

I love Hitchens' books, but I don't think he gives strong enough arguments against the evidence for Christianity being true.

He makes the assumption that by proving God (if he exists) is a monster, you disprove the veracity of God. I think that's a false argument.

I'd like to think it was a good argument, but sadly, looking at the world we've got, if there is a God, I don't think he could be anything other than a monster (I apologise for any offence caused to theists on this mb by this argument, but these are my strongly held beliefs after years of agonising over the issue).

That however does not mean God doesn't exist - merely that if he does exist, he's a monster.

The strongest argument against Christianity is the evidence for evolution, but I don't know enough about science to buy that completely, and I certainly wouldn't just trust something because the so called experts in the field tell me it's true.

I do however know enough about history to find the arguments I've briefly outlined above to be persuasive of the veracity of "the Christ event" being true.

Religion is silly. I can't see how that would ever be an opinion. People who believe in god are supporting a blind faith, no evidence to support it. Causes wars etc. everyone should just be normal and lead there life instead of worrying wot comes next. Sorry if I offend.

[quote="Pontypool_Bluebird"]Religion is silly. I can't see how that would ever be an opinion. People who believe in god are supporting a blind faith, no evidence to support it. Causes wars etc. everyone should just be normal and lead there life instead of worrying wot comes next. Sorry if I offend.[/quotia..


how did we survive as babies????

we must of been created as life cant start from nothing because of the age factor newborn animals/humans need to be cared for and nurished,

there for there is either a creator or a superior race in the universe, we wouldnt just appear full grown able people

Religion is silly. I can't see how that would ever be an opinion. People who believe in god are supporting a blind faith, no evidence to support it. Causes wars etc. everyone should just be normal and lead there life instead of worrying wot comes next. Sorry if I offend.[/quotia..


how did we survive as babies????

we must of been created as life cant start from nothing because of the age factor newborn animals/humans need to be cared for and nurished,

there for there is either a creator or a superior race in the universe, we wouldnt just appear full grown able people

One word EVOLUTION.

I'm a geologist by training a a believer in science and the big bang
But.........
Where do particles come from?
Step by step work backwards.......

There he is

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I'm a geologist by training a a believer in science and the big bang
But.........
Where do particles come from?
Step by step work backwards.......

There are such things as virtual particles in quantum physics. For an incredibly small time, incomprehensibly small particles come into existence with a neutral charge, from quite simply, empty space. So scientists think this may have caused the initial universe to be, in the oscillating universe theory ( series of big bang to collapse to big bang etc ), which I believe in.

Yes, I think if you are following it, you do need to be truthful, as God can supposedly see through all deceit, otherwise the premise falls apart.

But it doesn't instruct you how to live your life AFAIK. It doesn't instruct anything, only encourages how to place your Wager

.

Therein lies the second flaw. Only those who have an inclination to believe in God, or at least apathy towards belief, can follow the thesis correctly. Individuals like myself who sincerely believe that there is no such thing are unable to do so without being dishonest and consequently sinning. Thus, only those who are inclined to believe can follow the wager successfully. All others are simply pretending.

The third flaw regards instruction and encouragement. Being told what to believe in, more so with regards to religion, undermines its primary principals entirely. Religious belief should be a natural decision made by the individual concerned; not by a theory, statistic, or philosophy such as this. What it's saying is "There's more to gain through belief than there is to lose". However, religion is not that simple for many.

but most athiests have no problem telling you that God doesnt exist using statistics, theories or scientific theory.
I believe in God with all my heart its the way I was raised and the choices I have made in my life and I expect people to respect that same as i respect other peoples beliefs.
Personally I find athiests an interesting breed and rather rude they not far from jehovahs witnesses who seem to feel the need to hammer their beliefs into every passerby and if you dont agree they throw a wobly.
The fact is I cant prove God exists anymore than you can prove that God doesnt exist, but that doesnt change my beliefs and doesnt give athiests the right to have a go at my beliefs.

There he is

I was going to say that as well

The Big Bang Theory is simply the most logical theory that has the most substantial evidence for the creation of the universe. Even though when it comes down to what was there before the big bang is a bit murky it is no less illogical than there being a deity

Yes, I think if you are following it, you do need to be truthful, as God can supposedly see through all deceit, otherwise the premise falls apart.

But it doesn't instruct you how to live your life AFAIK. It doesn't instruct anything, only encourages how to place your Wager

.

Therein lies the second flaw. Only those who have an inclination to believe in God, or at least apathy towards belief, can follow the thesis correctly. Individuals like myself who sincerely believe that there is no such thing are unable to do so without being dishonest and consequently sinning. Thus, only those who are inclined to believe can follow the wager successfully. All others are simply pretending.

The third flaw regards instruction and encouragement. Being told what to believe in, more so with regards to religion, undermines its primary principals entirely. Religious belief should be a natural decision made by the individual concerned; not by a theory, statistic, or philosophy such as this. What it's saying is "There's more to gain through belief than there is to lose". However, religion is not that simple for many.

but most athiests have no problem telling you that God doesnt exist using statistics, theories or scientific theory.
I believe in God with all my heart its the way I was raised and the choices I have made in my life and I expect people to respect that same as i respect other peoples beliefs.
Personally I find athiests an interesting breed and rather rude they not far from jehovahs witnesses who seem to feel the need to hammer their beliefs into every passerby and if you dont agree they throw a wobly.
The fact is I cant prove God exists anymore than you can prove that God doesnt exist, but that doesnt change my beliefs and doesnt give athiests the right to have a go at my beliefs.

It works the other way aswell the amount of preaching by the religous is equally as bad as the minority of athiests that feel the need to shake peoples faith

Yes, I think if you are following it, you do need to be truthful, as God can supposedly see through all deceit, otherwise the premise falls apart.

But it doesn't instruct you how to live your life AFAIK. It doesn't instruct anything, only encourages how to place your Wager

.

Therein lies the second flaw. Only those who have an inclination to believe in God, or at least apathy towards belief, can follow the thesis correctly. Individuals like myself who sincerely believe that there is no such thing are unable to do so without being dishonest and consequently sinning. Thus, only those who are inclined to believe can follow the wager successfully. All others are simply pretending.

The third flaw regards instruction and encouragement. Being told what to believe in, more so with regards to religion, undermines its primary principals entirely. Religious belief should be a natural decision made by the individual concerned; not by a theory, statistic, or philosophy such as this. What it's saying is "There's more to gain through belief than there is to lose". However, religion is not that simple for many.

but most athiests have no problem telling you that God doesnt exist using statistics, theories or scientific theory.
I believe in God with all my heart its the way I was raised and the choices I have made in my life and I expect people to respect that same as i respect other peoples beliefs.
Personally I find athiests an interesting breed and rather rude they not far from jehovahs witnesses who seem to feel the need to hammer their beliefs into every passerby and if you dont agree they throw a wobly.
The fact is I cant prove God exists anymore than you can prove that God doesnt exist, but that doesnt change my beliefs and doesnt give athiests the right to have a go at my beliefs.

It works the other way aswell the amount of preaching by the religous is equally as bad as the minority of athiests that feel the need to shake peoples faith

I agree to a point which is why I brought up Jehovahs Witnesses, as far as im concerned with regards to my religion, you know where my church is, you know when our services are held if you want to join in the door is open if not no problem, but we will always be there for you if you ever need us.

Yes, I think if you are following it, you do need to be truthful, as God can supposedly see through all deceit, otherwise the premise falls apart.

But it doesn't instruct you how to live your life AFAIK. It doesn't instruct anything, only encourages how to place your Wager

.

Therein lies the second flaw. Only those who have an inclination to believe in God, or at least apathy towards belief, can follow the thesis correctly. Individuals like myself who sincerely believe that there is no such thing are unable to do so without being dishonest and consequently sinning. Thus, only those who are inclined to believe can follow the wager successfully. All others are simply pretending.

The third flaw regards instruction and encouragement. Being told what to believe in, more so with regards to religion, undermines its primary principals entirely. Religious belief should be a natural decision made by the individual concerned; not by a theory, statistic, or philosophy such as this. What it's saying is "There's more to gain through belief than there is to lose". However, religion is not that simple for many.

but most athiests have no problem telling you that God doesnt exist using statistics, theories or scientific theory.
I believe in God with all my heart its the way I was raised and the choices I have made in my life and I expect people to respect that same as i respect other peoples beliefs.
Personally I find athiests an interesting breed and rather rude they not far from jehovahs witnesses who seem to feel the need to hammer their beliefs into every passerby and if you dont agree they throw a wobly.
The fact is I cant prove God exists anymore than you can prove that God doesnt exist, but that doesnt change my beliefs and doesnt give athiests the right to have a go at my beliefs.

It works the other way aswell the amount of preaching by the religous is equally as bad as the minority of athiests that feel the need to shake peoples faith

I agree to a point which is why I brought up Jehovahs Witnesses, as far as im concerned with regards to my religion, you know where my church is, you know when our services are held if you want to join in the door is open if not no problem, but we will always be there for you if you ever need us.

It is unfair to simply lay the blame with Jehovah Witnesses though I do agree they are a nuisance. The amount of times I have been approached by a Protestant or catholic trying to persuade me to believe in god is more often than anyone from the Jehovah witness faith

Yes, I think if you are following it, you do need to be truthful, as God can supposedly see through all deceit, otherwise the premise falls apart.

But it doesn't instruct you how to live your life AFAIK. It doesn't instruct anything, only encourages how to place your Wager

.

Therein lies the second flaw. Only those who have an inclination to believe in God, or at least apathy towards belief, can follow the thesis correctly. Individuals like myself who sincerely believe that there is no such thing are unable to do so without being dishonest and consequently sinning. Thus, only those who are inclined to believe can follow the wager successfully. All others are simply pretending.

The third flaw regards instruction and encouragement. Being told what to believe in, more so with regards to religion, undermines its primary principals entirely. Religious belief should be a natural decision made by the individual concerned; not by a theory, statistic, or philosophy such as this. What it's saying is "There's more to gain through belief than there is to lose". However, religion is not that simple for many.

but most athiests have no problem telling you that God doesnt exist using statistics, theories or scientific theory.
I believe in God with all my heart its the way I was raised and the choices I have made in my life and I expect people to respect that same as i respect other peoples beliefs.
Personally I find athiests an interesting breed and rather rude they not far from jehovahs witnesses who seem to feel the need to hammer their beliefs into every passerby and if you dont agree they throw a wobly.
The fact is I cant prove God exists anymore than you can prove that God doesnt exist, but that doesnt change my beliefs and doesnt give athiests the right to have a go at my beliefs.

It works the other way aswell the amount of preaching by the religous is equally as bad as the minority of athiests that feel the need to shake peoples faith

I agree to a point which is why I brought up Jehovahs Witnesses, as far as im concerned with regards to my religion, you know where my church is, you know when our services are held if you want to join in the door is open if not no problem, but we will always be there for you if you ever need us.

It is unfair to simply lay the blame with Jehovah Witnesses though I do agree they are a nuisance. The amount of times I have been approached by a Protestant or catholic trying to persuade me to believe in god is more often than anyone from the Jehovah witness faith

I cant say ive ever seen a Catholic recruitment party, ive attended events they put on where obviously religion is the main theme but nothing like what the Jehovahs do.
If individuals from different religions choose to preach their religion in public thats up to them and have a certain level of admiration for them, but Jehovahs go door to door as an organisation there is a difference.
I would be interested in your experiences though.

I do agree that Catholics tend to keep to themselves. As for jehova witnesses do go door to door I have had a few protestants come knocking though mainly chinese. Most of my run ins with christianity preaching has come from standing in the middle of Cardiff politely arguing with some very racist christians. I have nothing against religion though I am an Athiest, the teachings the bible can provide are essential though I dont see the reward of heaven as a need to do it

I do agree that Catholics tend to keep to themselves. As for jehova witnesses do go door to door I have had a few protestants come knocking though mainly chinese. Most of my run ins with christianity preaching has come from standing in the middle of Cardiff politely arguing with some very racist christians. I have nothing against religion though I am an Athiest, the teachings the bible can provide are essential though I dont see the reward of heaven as a need to do it

yeah I can imagine it takes a certain type of person to stand in the street and preach, obviously they were preaching their religious beliefs but would you say they were preaching with consent of a religious organisation or on their own back

I do agree that Catholics tend to keep to themselves. As for jehova witnesses do go door to door I have had a few protestants come knocking though mainly chinese. Most of my run ins with christianity preaching has come from standing in the middle of Cardiff politely arguing with some very racist christians. I have nothing against religion though I am an Athiest, the teachings the bible can provide are essential though I dont see the reward of heaven as a need to do it

yeah I can imagine it takes a certain type of person to stand in the street and preach, obviously they were preaching their religious beliefs but would you say they were preaching with consent of a religious organisation or on their own back

Indeed, specially as a few of them claimed to have been a part of a satanic cult at some point in their lives If you don't mind me asking seeing as your a religous person do you believe in the theory of evolution?

I'm a geologist by training a a believer in science and the big bang
But.........
Where do particles come from?
Step by step work backwards.......

There are such things as virtual particles in quantum physics. For an incredibly small time, incomprehensibly small particles come into existence with a neutral charge, from quite simply, empty space. So scientists think this may have caused the initial universe to be, in the oscillating universe theory ( series of big bang to collapse to big bang etc ), which I believe in.

So who made these virtual particles?

I do agree that Catholics tend to keep to themselves. As for jehova witnesses do go door to door I have had a few protestants come knocking though mainly chinese. Most of my run ins with christianity preaching has come from standing in the middle of Cardiff politely arguing with some very racist christians. I have nothing against religion though I am an Athiest, the teachings the bible can provide are essential though I dont see the reward of heaven as a need to do it

yeah I can imagine it takes a certain type of person to stand in the street and preach, obviously they were preaching their religious beliefs but would you say they were preaching with consent of a religious organisation or on their own back

Indeed, specially as a few of them claimed to have been a part of a satanic cult at some point in their lives If you don't mind me asking seeing as your a religous person do you believe in the theory of evolution?

yes I have no doubt evolution exists and is real
theres too much proof to say it doesnt exist
though I can see both sides of the argument.
I believe we were created in Gods image and our particular evolution (especially our intelligence) acknowledges that.

I'm a geologist by training a a believer in science and the big bang
But.........
Where do particles come from?
Step by step work backwards.......

There are such things as virtual particles in quantum physics. For an incredibly small time, incomprehensibly small particles come into existence with a neutral charge, from quite simply, empty space. So scientists think this may have caused the initial universe to be, in the oscillating universe theory ( series of big bang to collapse to big bang etc ), which I believe in.

So who made these virtual particles?

Why do the have to be MADE?

I'm a geologist by training a a believer in science and the big bang
But.........
Where do particles come from?
Step by step work backwards.......

There are such things as virtual particles in quantum physics. For an incredibly small time, incomprehensibly small particles come into existence with a neutral charge, from quite simply, empty space. So scientists think this may have caused the initial universe to be, in the oscillating universe theory ( series of big bang to collapse to big bang etc ), which I believe in.

So who made these virtual particles?

Why do the have to be MADE?

If they exist, they have come from something. Where did that something come from and for what purpose? Was it designed?

I'm a geologist by training a a believer in science and the big bang
But.........
Where do particles come from?
Step by step work backwards.......

There are such things as virtual particles in quantum physics. For an incredibly small time, incomprehensibly small particles come into existence with a neutral charge, from quite simply, empty space. So scientists think this may have caused the initial universe to be, in the oscillating universe theory ( series of big bang to collapse to big bang etc ), which I believe in.

So who made these virtual particles?

Why do the have to be MADE?

If they exist, they have come from something. Where did that something come from and for what purpose? Was it designed?

Fundamental particles exist both in a particle and wave state hence wave-particle duality. As they can exist as a wave they are simply described as a packet of energy. These energies were created from the big bang and as such not designed

I'm a geologist by training a a believer in science and the big bang
But.........
Where do particles come from?
Step by step work backwards.......

There are such things as virtual particles in quantum physics. For an incredibly small time, incomprehensibly small particles come into existence with a neutral charge, from quite simply, empty space. So scientists think this may have caused the initial universe to be, in the oscillating universe theory ( series of big bang to collapse to big bang etc ), which I believe in.

So who made these virtual particles?

Why do the have to be MADE?

If they exist, they have come from something. Where did that something come from and for what purpose? Was it designed?

Fundamental particles exist both in a particle and wave state hence wave-particle duality. As they can exist as a wave they are simply described as a packet of energy. These energies were created from the big bang and as such not designed

Ok but then energy, particles etc how did they come into existence. What's the purpose, the life or driving force? I find it all a bit mind blowing as if you don't believe in God then how did it all start and why, yet if you do then how did God come into existence? For me if there is a God then I still don't believe in all the relions the world has as IMO they are all made by man for control purposes. Tricky stuff.

Ok but then energy, particles etc how did they come into existence. What's the purpose, the life or driving force? I find it all a bit mind blowing as if you don't believe in God then how did it all start and why, yet if you do then how did God come into existence? For me if there is a God then I still don't believe in all the relions the world has as IMO they are all made by man for control purposes. Tricky stuff.

Unfortunatly thats the current limits with both science and religon is in the fact that they both have unobtainable answers. As for the big bang theory it is believed that the universe was in an a state that was of infinite density, infinite energy, at an infinite temperature and pressure. This state then begin to cool and expand allowing this high energy to become the most funamental particles and led to the forces of the universe to be created.

Out of 100 men, one will read the Bible, the other 99 will read the Christian. CCFC

No there isn't. There's absolute no proof what so ever of it existing. When believers ask, where did the particles come from? Well who made god? Where did it come from?

No just no, there is no one up in the sky who creates poeple and created earth

Yes - and she's red