" SURELY IT CANNOT CONTINUE AS IT IS? "

The Malaysians have said they are in it for the long term, that'll do me.

"If" these figures (I don't follow rumour) are correct then perhaps certain fans will shut up about bringing in more players.

Nice timing by the way......... 2 days after a momentous day for Cardiff City.

Well without the players on the field for a prem push where do CERTAIN FANS as you put it expect the club to be in 1-3 years time if this debt as carl puts it just keeps going up and up because a promotion to the prem is worth 90million after all

Presuming Carl is correct of course, a mutual friend told me that Steve Borley said ---------------- I usually go by more than that.

As for the Prem being worth 90 million I think thats more than misleading and always have.

Will I take the word of someone on the MB or show faith in the Malaysians who have categorically stated they are in it for the long term ....whilst building up more links in Malaysia?

I suggest anyone who questions the Malaysians intent they come out and publicly state it......instead of stirring things up just days after our final.

People are questioning the Malaysians yet still think of SH as some form of messiah.

Who is questioning the Malaysians intent? Have I, no I have not.

I am talking about the figures that Steve Borley stated. Would you rather I posted this on the eve of the Cup final? No I guess you wouldn't.

When would be a good time for you? Perhaps if we fail to go up? Or shall we wait until we reach £80million?

When are we allowed to discuss it, should I seek your permission first?

Or should you stop burying your head and face up to where we are?

tell me then, wot do you think we should do about it. coz where i`m sitting, there`s f**k all we can do except.... enjoy the ride like we all did with the previous messiah...

Another great debate by Carlos.

I will watch with interest.

Don't forget my contribution Annis.

Why do shares = debt

Why does approx £1m invested each month = debt

How much do we owe to parties outside of the Football club?

Who said shares equal debt?

£1.2million being paid by a party to run the club each month on top of what the club manages to pay by its own means equals debt or do you think it is a gift?

Carl,
Why start a thread and then get abrasive when people question you.

You said Our current level of debt is over £70million and it is growing daily.

So do we have invoices, loans etc totalling this amount.

Or put another who outside of the club can take legal action to get their
Money back.

I think we'd all prefer no debt. But it started a long time ago, not just when the malaysians got involved

Rob I have not suggested the debt only started when the Malaysians got involved and if anyone suggested that they would be in cuckoo land.

I got abrasive when a poster brings into question that I am questioning the Malaysians intent.

I am posting about the talked about figures of Malaysian investment, Langston debt and others including PMG,Borley, Ranson etc.

I am stating that in my opinion it cannot continue as it currently is. Don't forget I posted about the Malaysians propping the club up to the tune of £1.2million every month, I applauded that for obvious reasons but it still concerns me.

You mentioned shares in another post and I would be a very happy Bluebird if all the outstanding debt was turned into shares.

We will just have to carry on and hope for the best, because we as fans cant do f**k all....

We will just have to carry on and hope for the best, because we as fans cant do f**k all....

We have a right to be concerned and we have right to ask questions though.

Your missing the piont, the £24million due to sam will never be paid, the rest of the cash will be paid off, if and when we get to the premiership. other debts will also be reduced or Writen off over time.

Your missing the piont, the £24million due to sam will never be paid, the rest of the cash will be paid off, if and when we get to the premiership. other debts will also be reduced or Writen off over time.

Why do you believe the club will never pay the Langston debt?

Your missing the piont, the £24million due to sam will never be paid, the rest of the cash will be paid off, if and when we get to the premiership. other debts will also be reduced or Writen off over time.

The problem with that is of course, if you ever get to the Prem, your outgoings will shoot up massively thereby negating most of the increases in income.

You only have to look at the financial plight of many Prem clubs to see it's not the golden egg laying goose it's made out to be.

Carl very interesting that you quote my name and yet not my friend, secondly I have no recollection speaking to you after the Reading game. You are constantly in the press as the "fans spokesman" telling us we need to sign more players and back the manager and next minute saying cant continue as it is. Anyone see Villas results today or Man City's or Chelsea's results recently. The accounts will be published shortly best to wait rather than speculate and concentrate on watching football.

Why do shares = debt

Why does approx £1m invested each month = debt

How much do we owe to parties outside of the Football club?

Who said shares equal debt?

£1.2million being paid by a party to run the club each month on top of what the club manages to pay by its own means equals debt or do you think it is a gift?

Carl,
Why start a thread and then get abrasive when people question you.

You said Our current level of debt is over £70million and it is growing daily.

So do we have invoices, loans etc totalling this amount.

Or put another who outside of the club can take legal action to get their
Money back.

I think we'd all prefer no debt. But it started a long time ago, not just when the malaysians got involved

Rob I have not suggested the debt only started when the Malaysians got involved and if anyone suggested that they would be in cuckoo land.

I got abrasive when a poster brings into question that I am questioning the Malaysians intent.

I am posting about the talked about figures of Malaysian investment, Langston debt and others including PMG,Borley, Ranson etc.

I am stating that in my opinion it cannot continue as it currently is. Don't forget I posted about the Malaysians propping the club up to the tune of £1.2million every month, I applauded that for obvious reasons but it still concerns me.

You mentioned shares in another post and I would be a very happy Bluebird if all the outstanding debt was turned into shares.

There was certainly no abrasive tone meant.

Yes, I think we as fans should revel in the good times when they happen. I have seen nothing form the Malaysians for me to question them. They have turned a good deal of debt into shares so far and Im sure they have a business plan in turn.

Are you saying Steve Borley has said that the Maalaysians are proppinp up the club by 1.2M per month?

Can Steve break the figures down income and out goings and there is 1.2M on top of this a month?

Considering its a MB and 99% of us would be quite ignorant of business.....thats why I think its a bit dangerous mentioning what people are saying without all the facts.

You know what the internet is like....a rumour can become a fact amongst City fans.

We hit a poor patch and the same old rumblings of our future will come up again.

Your missing the piont, the £24million due to sam will never be paid, the rest of the cash will be paid off, if and when we get to the premiership. other debts will also be reduced or Writen off over time.

The problem with that is of course, if you ever get to the Prem, your outgoings will shoot up massively thereby negating most of the increases in income.

You only have to look at the financial plight of many Prem clubs to see it's not the golden egg laying goose it's made out to be.

100% agree with this. The only way you can make money from the prem is if you're a club that had no visions of getting promotion and has been working as a lower championship/higher league 1 club and didn't bother putting prem clauses into the player contracts.

I have just read through a thread on this board and thought I would start a new thread about the clubs finances.

Before I start I appreciate that some of the figures being posted on this board are a result of my updates and have not been qualified as fact but I will explain as I go how I came to know these figures.

Our current level of debt is by my reckoning over £70million and it is growing daily.

How does the £70million break down?

The Malaysians have so far invested £36million and £6million of that has been converted to shares therefore leaving them owed £30million. Steve Borley told a mutual friend of the figure that the Malaysians have invested after he learned that some posters on this message board were questioning the Malaysians committment.

Steve Borley also told our mutual friend that the Malaysians were putting in £1.2million every month to service the clubs day to day running.

We know there is a figure of £24million attached to Langston but there is also the other aspects of bonuses which become payable if and when certain achievements are made ie.promotion. When everything is added together with the interest then the Langston debt becomes £35million. This £35million is debated between the club and Langston but we know for certain that it is £24million plus the interest.

We also have other creditors still owed money, Ray Ranson, PMG, Steve Borley, Michael Isaac etc. these total more than £5million so we are in excess of £70million.

Now if we take into account that the Malaysians are paying £1.2million each month then the figure is continuing to rise, how long can this situation continue to happen.

The Langston debt will not just go away, regardless of anyone's view of Sam Hammam, it has to be serviced whether it be in 4 days or in 4 years.

The Malaysians debt will not just go away, when the time cones that the Malaysians move on then I do not envisage that the dent will be wiped free.

Our wage bill is 'broadly comparative' to that of last season yet we lost many of the big name players.

So how much longer can we go on adding to an already exuberant sum?

I'm sorry to say but puting such information, obtained second-hand, on a fan's messageboard is both irresponsible and potential damaging to the Club. It real does you no credit and I real wonder what you hope to achieve by such a disclosure. This does not, as another poster implies ,create a healthy discussion but is purely scare mongering on a monumental scale.
Shame on you!

Carl very interesting that you quote my name and yet not my friend, secondly I have no recollection speaking to you after the Reading game. You are constantly in the press as the "fans spokesman" telling us we need to sign more players and back the manager and next minute saying cant continue as it is. Anyone see Villas results today or Man City's or Chelsea's results recently. The accounts will be published shortly best to wait rather than speculate and concentrate on watching football.

Steve you and I spoke for at least an hour after the Reading game, not the same day as the game but within days of it. I am surprised you do not remember such a lengthy call.

Steve with regards to players of course I am saying it like our manager is saying it too, don't you think we need more players then?

I am saying that the debt levels cannot continue to rise as they are at present.

Whilst you're here, did you not tell Steve Davies (our mutual friend) that the Malaysians have put in £1.2million every month since August and did you not say last week that the Malaysians have invested £36million so far.

It's all gloom and doom, Perhaps a bit of scare mongering maybe?

All ifs and buts, however why would the Malaysians invest so much(£36m) just to walk away?

And Vinnie Tan has stated he wants to concentrate mor on developing BRAND Cardiff city, for all we know he could be planning a complete buyout.
Plus he wealth will grow by over £100m when Facebook starts floating.

I have just read through a thread on this board and thought I would start a new thread about the clubs finances.

Before I start I appreciate that some of the figures being posted on this board are a result of my updates and have not been qualified as fact but I will explain as I go how I came to know these figures.

Our current level of debt is by my reckoning over £70million and it is growing daily.

How does the £70million break down?

The Malaysians have so far invested £36million and £6million of that has been converted to shares therefore leaving them owed £30million. Steve Borley told a mutual friend of the figure that the Malaysians have invested after he learned that some posters on this message board were questioning the Malaysians committment.

Steve Borley also told our mutual friend that the Malaysians were putting in £1.2million every month to service the clubs day to day running.

We know there is a figure of £24million attached to Langston but there is also the other aspects of bonuses which become payable if and when certain achievements are made ie.promotion. When everything is added together with the interest then the Langston debt becomes £35million. This £35million is debated between the club and Langston but we know for certain that it is £24million plus the interest.

We also have other creditors still owed money, Ray Ranson, PMG, Steve Borley, Michael Isaac etc. these total more than £5million so we are in excess of £70million.

Now if we take into account that the Malaysians are paying £1.2million each month then the figure is continuing to rise, how long can this situation continue to happen.

The Langston debt will not just go away, regardless of anyone's view of Sam Hammam, it has to be serviced whether it be in 4 days or in 4 years.

The Malaysians debt will not just go away, when the time cones that the Malaysians move on then I do not envisage that the dent will be wiped free.

Our wage bill is 'broadly comparative' to that of last season yet we lost many of the big name players.

So how much longer can we go on adding to an already exuberant sum?

I'm sorry to say but puting such information, obtained second-hand, on a fan's messageboard is both irresponsible and potential damaging to the Club. It real does you no credit and I real wonder what you hope to achieve by such a disclosure. This does not, as another poster implies ,create a healthy discussion but is purely scare mongering on a monumental scale.
Shame on you!

These figures have been known for sometime, some of it goes back 6 years it is hardly a breach of the secrets act.

It's all gloom and doom, Perhaps a bit of scare mongering maybe?

All ifs and buts, however why would the Malaysians invest so much(£36m) just to walk away?

And Vinnie Tan has stated he wants to concentrate mor on developing BRAND Cardiff city, for all we know he could be planning a complete buyout.
Plus he wealth will grow by over £100m when Facebook starts floating.

It is not doom and gloom or scare mongerng.

It is discussing figures that we have known about for some time.

The Malaysians have said they are in it for the long term, that'll do me.

"If" these figures (I don't follow rumour) are correct then perhaps certain fans will shut up about bringing in more players.

Nice timing by the way......... 2 days after a momentous day for Cardiff City.

Agree the timing of this post is pants. Sunday was one of the best days ever to be a Cardiff City fan. Opinions like this could have waited in my opinion.

Your missing the piont, the £24million due to sam will never be paid, the rest of the cash will be paid off, if and when we get to the premiership. other debts will also be reduced or Writen off over time.

Why do you believe the club will never pay the Langston debt?

It`s simple that debt cannot be proved, Sams holding out for penny`s not pounds, I`m not saying Sam wont see nothing but it`s clear the malaysians are playing a game of cat and mouse, it`s been nearly 7 years since Sam went I think, If he thought the money was due why is he holding off.

Your missing the piont, the £24million due to sam will never be paid, the rest of the cash will be paid off, if and when we get to the premiership. other debts will also be reduced or Writen off over time.

Why do you believe the club will never pay the Langston debt?

It`s simple that debt cannot be proved, Sams holding out for penny`s not pounds, I`m not saying Sam wont see nothing but it`s clear the malaysians are playing a game of cat and mouse, it`s been nearly 7 years since Sam went I think, If he thought the money was due why is he holding off.

Its there in black and white, its in the bloody accounts.

Your missing the piont, the £24million due to sam will never be paid, the rest of the cash will be paid off, if and when we get to the premiership. other debts will also be reduced or Writen off over time.

Why do you believe the club will never pay the Langston debt?

It`s simple that debt cannot be proved, Sams holding out for penny`s not pounds, I`m not saying Sam wont see nothing but it`s clear the malaysians are playing a game of cat and mouse, it`s been nearly 7 years since Sam went I think, If he thought the money was due why is he holding off.

The debt to Langston is in the accounts.

The Malaysians have said they are in it for the long term, that'll do me.

"If" these figures (I don't follow rumour) are correct then perhaps certain fans will shut up about bringing in more players.

Nice timing by the way......... 2 days after a momentous day for Cardiff City.

Agree the timing of this post is pants. Sunday was one of the best days ever to be a Cardiff City fan. Opinions like this could have waited in my opinion.

So on the eve of the accounts being released we cannot discuss amongst ourselves our levels of debt.

I think Steve Borley has given me a reason to leave this debate......the accounts will be published soon.

To run a business we also watch what we spend, the Malaysians never said they would spend their way to success. Unlike a certain SH and PR.

Enjoying following the City at the moment!

The Malaysians have said they are in it for the long term, that'll do me.

"If" these figures (I don't follow rumour) are correct then perhaps certain fans will shut up about bringing in more players.

Nice timing by the way......... 2 days after a momentous day for Cardiff City.

Agree the timing of this post is pants. Sunday was one of the best days ever to be a Cardiff City fan. Opinions like this could have waited in my opinion.

So on the eve of the accounts being released we cannot discuss amongst ourselves our levels of debt.

Perhaps the day after the accounts being published would be more appropriate.

I think Steve Borley has given me a reason to leave this debate......the accounts will be published soon.

To run a business we also watch what we spend, the Malaysians never said they would spend their way to success. Unlike a certain SH and PR.

Enjoying following the City at the moment!

The latest set of accounts will not show the past 10 months

The Malaysians have said they are in it for the long term, that'll do me.

"If" these figures (I don't follow rumour) are correct then perhaps certain fans will shut up about bringing in more players.

Nice timing by the way......... 2 days after a momentous day for Cardiff City.

Agree the timing of this post is pants. Sunday was one of the best days ever to be a Cardiff City fan. Opinions like this could have waited in my opinion.

So on the eve of the accounts being released we cannot discuss amongst ourselves our levels of debt.

Everyone's on an high at the moment, let's discuss the accounts once they are released.

Carl

you allude to the fact that the club is accumulating debts at a rate of £1.2m per month since the malaysians are investing this cash on a monthly basis. to keep it simple we will ignore the fact that cash inflow does not necessarily infer an increase in creditors.

if VT is investing £15m per annum to stay still and we have turnover and other income of around £20m or so, that would infer running costs in the region of £35m per annum. Are you suggesting that we have running costs of £35m per annum?

I think Steve Borley has given me a reason to leave this debate......the accounts will be published soon.

To run a business we also watch what we spend, the Malaysians never said they would spend their way to success. Unlike a certain SH and PR.

Enjoying following the City at the moment!

The latest set of accounts will not show the past 10 months

they will show material facts after the balance sheet date that can affect the verisimilitude or otherwise of the statements

No Carl, I don't recall taking your call and perhaps you will ask Steve Davies to confirm your claims on here.
I don't tell the manager who to sign, he has his head of recruitment and head scout to do that for him. We don't play championship manager in the boardroom. If I have an opinion I will keep it to myself.

Why do shares = debt

Why does approx £1m invested each month = debt

How much do we owe to parties outside of the Football club?

Who said shares equal debt?

£1.2million being paid by a party to run the club each month on top of what the club manages to pay by its own means equals debt or do you think it is a gift?

Carl,
Why start a thread and then get abrasive when people question you.

You said Our current level of debt is over £70million and it is growing daily.

So do we have invoices, loans etc totalling this amount.

Or put another who outside of the club can take legal action to get their
Money back.

I think we'd all prefer no debt. But it started a long time ago, not just when the malaysians got involved

Rob I have not suggested the debt only started when the Malaysians got involved and if anyone suggested that they would be in cuckoo land.

I got abrasive when a poster brings into question that I am questioning the Malaysians intent.

I am posting about the talked about figures of Malaysian investment, Langston debt and others including PMG,Borley, Ranson etc.

I am stating that in my opinion it cannot continue as it currently is. Don't forget I posted about the Malaysians propping the club up to the tune of £1.2million every month, I applauded that for obvious reasons but it still concerns me.

You mentioned shares in another post and I would be a very happy Bluebird if all the outstanding debt was turned into shares.

I have no problem with the finances being discussed but I think you have simplified the debt calculation and arrived at a figure that is quite scary and gets noticed.

From this point on there will be so many people believing we are £70m in debt.

That could be damaging to the club

Carl

you allude to the fact that the club is accumulating debts at a rate of £1.2m per month since the malaysians are investing this cash on a monthly basis. to keep it simple we will ignore the fact that cash inflow does not necessarily infer an increase in creditors.

if VT is investing £15m per annum to stay still and we have turnover and other income of around £20m or so, that would infer running costs in the region of £35m per annum. Are you suggesting that we have running costs of £35m per annum?

Ask Steve Borley.