Drakeford is a tw*t

Full stadiums in England next season.

4500 odd rattling around in the CCS until Drakeford decides that's not "cautious" enough and restricts it further.

by skidemin » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:23 pm

Sven wrote:
davids wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Posted other day that expert says should lift lockdown but since then WG as got out the big guns and are putting out overtones that lockdown wont be lifted just yet they are scared of covid mutating ? They really saying don't want to lift it until covid is gone...


That's exactly what they're saying. They have said that restrictions must remain whilst covid is a threat to people's health.

Well that will always be the case and covid will never be gone forever.

Now looking for any excuse to drag out the restrictions - there "may" be lots of people needing hospitalisation, there "may" be new variants that the vaccine doesn't work against, there "may" be an increase in deaths etc etc

There "may" e a new virus that comes along in 2097 that's even worse than covid so best keep everything restricted "just in case".

Oh and no mention of any of the myriad negative effects on people's physical and mental well being as the result of lockdowns and restrictions because the WAG has not acknowledged that such things exist at any time during this whole pandemic.

I can understand WAG's cautious approach to a large extent and anyone suffering from Covid-19 and Long Covid will attest; but if ever there was a time for a 'national' approach, it is now...

Not to do so will just confuse matters further and give some people the excuse they need to make up their own rules based on the actions of others around the UK

Personally, I believe it is time to move on and get this country, specifically the UK, in to economic recovery mode but this should be tempered with the maintaining of face masks in public spaces where unavoidable close contact is avoidable

Eradicating this disease is not going to happen, so intelligent management is the to go to Steps 2 and 3 of the management process and both control and isolate as best as we can



i cant say this enough....there are literally thousands suffering and can attest to suffering from all sorts of ailments for every one suffering covid.... its not made up its a fact.... yet caution over covid trumps all....its not fair, not right and certainly not sensible... for all the lockdowns/ restrictions they are predicting millions upon millions of cases this summer..predictions which will no doubt be repeated in the autumn , winter and next spring...... so all these millions having given up all this freedom end up with something they can catch , pass on and die from vaccinated or not... ? only mary next door is dead and dai around the corner is dead neither had covid and would probably not be had it not been for the hysteria.... its criminal....

You're absolutely right about the massive backlog for treatment of other serious illnesses, and medical associations have already stated that it is going to take years to catch up and many already have died or will die because of the delays. With another significant surge of covid now predicted as a result of removing the restrictions in England ( including by the UK government itself ), this is now expected to get even worse as more go into hospital with covid. Sadly many patients are reluctant to even visit hospitals because they are apparently one of the worst places for actually catching covid.

I know that a lot of hospitals have had staff shortages since a lot of the European staff left and it takes years to train staff to that level. Having been a management consultant in a former life, I don't know why our health boards don't work together to set up a system where some hospitals in each region do not take in any covid patients so that the most serious non-covid illnesses are dealt with without the fear of also catching covid when they are already battling.

As far as Drakeford is concerned, at least he seems to know that masks are to protect others, unlike Boris.

by skidemin » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:23 pm

Sven wrote:
davids wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Posted other day that expert says should lift lockdown but since then WG as got out the big guns and are putting out overtones that lockdown wont be lifted just yet they are scared of covid mutating ? They really saying don't want to lift it until covid is gone...


That's exactly what they're saying. They have said that restrictions must remain whilst covid is a threat to people's health.

Well that will always be the case and covid will never be gone forever.

Now looking for any excuse to drag out the restrictions - there "may" be lots of people needing hospitalisation, there "may" be new variants that the vaccine doesn't work against, there "may" be an increase in deaths etc etc

There "may" e a new virus that comes along in 2097 that's even worse than covid so best keep everything restricted "just in case".

Oh and no mention of any of the myriad negative effects on people's physical and mental well being as the result of lockdowns and restrictions because the WAG has not acknowledged that such things exist at any time during this whole pandemic.

I can understand WAG's cautious approach to a large extent and anyone suffering from Covid-19 and Long Covid will attest; but if ever there was a time for a 'national' approach, it is now...

Not to do so will just confuse matters further and give some people the excuse they need to make up their own rules based on the actions of others around the UK

Personally, I believe it is time to move on and get this country, specifically the UK, in to economic recovery mode but this should be tempered with the maintaining of face masks in public spaces where unavoidable close contact is avoidable

Eradicating this disease is not going to happen, so intelligent management is the to go to Steps 2 and 3 of the management process and both control and isolate as best as we can



i cant say this enough....there are literally thousands suffering and can attest to suffering from all sorts of ailments for every one suffering covid.... its not made up its a fact.... yet caution over covid trumps all....its not fair, not right and certainly not sensible... for all the lockdowns/ restrictions they are predicting millions upon millions of cases this summer..predictions which will no doubt be repeated in the autumn , winter and next spring...... so all these millions having given up all this freedom end up with something they can catch , pass on and die from vaccinated or not... ? only mary next door is dead and dai around the corner is dead neither had covid and would probably not be had it not been for the hysteria.... its criminal....

You're absolutely right about the massive backlog for treatment of other serious illnesses, and medical associations have already stated that it is going to take years to catch up and many already have died or will die because of the delays. With another significant surge of covid now predicted as a result of removing the restrictions in England ( including by the UK government itself ), this is now expected to get even worse as more go into hospital with covid. Sadly many patients are reluctant to even visit hospitals because they are apparently one of the worst places for actually catching covid.

I know that a lot of hospitals have had staff shortages since a lot of the European staff left and it takes years to train staff to that level. Having been a management consultant in a former life, I don't know why our health boards don't work together to set up a system where some hospitals in each region do not take in any covid patients so that the most serious non-covid illnesses are dealt with without the fear of also catching covid when they are already battling.

As far as Drakeford is concerned, at least he seems to know that masks are to protect others, unlike Boris.

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

by pembroke allan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:33 am

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

About 5 years was the figure that I'd heard as well, but that was before the latest surge in cases, so I agree that it now looks
5 yrs plus.

As for Boris, I think it's because he and his team didn't understand that a mask is to protect others not protect yourself. Several of them stated that "if people feel safer still wearing masks, that's fine", but they then got quite a lot of comments and started recommending that people might still want to wear them when using public transport, but no mention of supermarkets that I've heard of yet.

I see Sir Sven is in the house and spouting his grand superior wisdom.

My take is this and that the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Slow and steady is the way. Its only football ffs, season ticket holders only. Show your 2 jab id perhaps??? Jusst temporary till we get through this.

Vaccine passports is probably the best way to reduce the risk of spread.

by pembroke allan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:33 am

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

About 5 years was the figure that I'd heard as well, but that was before the latest surge in cases, so I agree that it now looks
5 yrs plus.

As for Boris, I think it's because he and his team didn't understand that a mask is to protect others not protect yourself. Several of them stated that "if people feel safer still wearing masks, that's fine", but they then got quite a lot of comments and started recommending that people might still want to wear them when using public transport, but no mention of supermarkets that I've heard of yet.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I think they should make people wear masks in areas where old and potentially scared people have to visit, like public transport and supermarkets, otherwise we need to let people make their own minds up.

I don't like masks and feel the benefits are slightly overrated as particles still get through, but would happily wear them in those places to reassure others.

by pembroke allan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:33 am

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

About 5 years was the figure that I'd heard as well, but that was before the latest surge in cases, so I agree that it now looks
5 yrs plus.

As for Boris, I think it's because he and his team didn't understand that a mask is to protect others not protect yourself. Several of them stated that "if people feel safer still wearing masks, that's fine", but they then got quite a lot of comments and started recommending that people might still want to wear them when using public transport, but no mention of supermarkets that I've heard of yet.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I think they should make people wear masks in areas where old and potentially scared people have to visit, like public transport and supermarkets, otherwise we need to let people make their own minds up.

I don't like masks and feel the benefits are slightly overrated as particles still get through, but would happily wear them in those places to reassure others.

Basic Masks are a one way protection they prevent the wearer spreading covid particles but dont stop wearer catching covid but does lessen the risk considerably....
Only pp3 level masks are effective for both. But I believe masks should be mandatory in shops and any public building for next 2 months just to make sure got enough vaccinated? Because If dont lift restrictions now we'll end up with winter respiration problems clouding the landscape and will be in lockdown until may.

by pembroke allan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:33 am

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

About 5 years was the figure that I'd heard as well, but that was before the latest surge in cases, so I agree that it now looks
5 yrs plus.

As for Boris, I think it's because he and his team didn't understand that a mask is to protect others not protect yourself. Several of them stated that "if people feel safer still wearing masks, that's fine", but they then got quite a lot of comments and started recommending that people might still want to wear them when using public transport, but no mention of supermarkets that I've heard of yet.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I think they should make people wear masks in areas where old and potentially scared people have to visit, like public transport and supermarkets, otherwise we need to let people make their own minds up.

I don't like masks and feel the benefits are slightly overrated as particles still get through, but would happily wear them in those places to reassure others.

Basic Masks are a one way protection they prevent the wearer spreading covid particles but dont stop wearer catching covid but does lessen the risk considerably....
Only pp3 level masks are effective for both. But I believe masks should be mandatory in shops and any public building for next 2 months just to make sure got enough vaccinated? Because If dont lift restrictions now we'll end up with winter respiration problems clouding the landscape and will be in lockdown until may.

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nano particles,smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.

by pembroke allan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:33 am

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

About 5 years was the figure that I'd heard as well, but that was before the latest surge in cases, so I agree that it now looks
5 yrs plus.

As for Boris, I think it's because he and his team didn't understand that a mask is to protect others not protect yourself. Several of them stated that "if people feel safer still wearing masks, that's fine", but they then got quite a lot of comments and started recommending that people might still want to wear them when using public transport, but no mention of supermarkets that I've heard of yet.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I think they should make people wear masks in areas where old and potentially scared people have to visit, like public transport and supermarkets, otherwise we need to let people make their own minds up.

I don't like masks and feel the benefits are slightly overrated as particles still get through, but would happily wear them in those places to reassure others.

Basic Masks are a one way protection they prevent the wearer spreading covid particles but dont stop wearer catching covid but does lessen the risk considerably....
Only pp3 level masks are effective for both. But I believe masks should be mandatory in shops and any public building for next 2 months just to make sure got enough vaccinated? Because If dont lift restrictions now we'll end up with winter respiration problems clouding the landscape and will be in lockdown until may.

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nano particles,smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.

If you cough into a mask the majority of the spit, mucous, water vapours, etc stay within the mask instead of spreading in front of you. If someone opposite you isn’t wearing a mask and coughs, if you’re close enough whatever they expel can land on your clothes, your hands, your hair, face, shopping, etc.

The main function of the mask is to stop you spreading it not stop you catching it. The higher quality masks do both.

by TheHangedMan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:48 am

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nanoparticles, smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.

I sent virtually the same question to Dr. Chris Smith, the virologist from the University of Cambridge who appears on the BBC months ago and the answer was that the particles come out from your nose and mouth, both of which can be stopped by the mask. If somebody not wearing a mask coughs your mask would protect you breathing it in, but the particles can still get to you 2 ways:-

1) they land on things that you then touch, hence the constant message to wash your hands or use sanitizer in supermarkets;
2) the one I didn't know was that it can also enter a person's system via their tear ducts which are not protected with the mask and apparently the reason that hospital staff wear masks and have plastic shields over their faces to protect their tear ducts.

by TheHangedMan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:48 am

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nanoparticles, smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.

I sent virtually the same question to Dr. Chris Smith, the virologist from the University of Cambridge who appears on the BBC months ago and the answer was that the particles come out from your nose and mouth, both of which can be stopped by the mask. If somebody not wearing a mask coughs your mask would protect you breathing it in, but the particles can still get to you 2 ways:-

1) they land on things that you then touch, hence the constant message to wash your hands or use sanitizer in supermarkets;
2) the one I didn't know was that it can also enter a person's system via their tear ducts which are not protected with the mask and apparently the reason that hospital staff wear masks and have plastic shields over their faces to protect their tear ducts.

Thanks that basically explains what I said.. same as homemade masks they are limited in their protection.... working within nhs environment get to know lots things.... basic masks just help prevent spread doesnt eliminate it only pp3 grade masks do that... been common knowledge about eyes and mouth dont touch when in shops ect hence message as been sanatise/ wash hands regularly its surprising how few people do it entering or leaving supermarkets...

I see Sir Sven is in the house and spouting his grand superior wisdom.

My take is this and that the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Slow and steady is the way. Its only football ffs, season ticket holders only. Show your 2 jab id perhaps??? Jusst temporary till we get through this.

Vaccine passports is probably the best way to reduce the risk of spread.

Why? Vaccines don't stop transmission by much if at all. If they do they have actually monumentally cocked up. Best way to finish this is for the virus to spread and become weaker as all viruses become endemic if allowed to spread. If the vaccines stop transmission the virus will evolve to become stronger to overcome the vaccine. If the vaccine simply reduces the risk of dying/hospitalisation it has done an excellent job.

If Vaccines work, why need vaccine passports?

If they don't, why need vaccine passports?

by pembroke allan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:33 am

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

About 5 years was the figure that I'd heard as well, but that was before the latest surge in cases, so I agree that it now looks
5 yrs plus.

As for Boris, I think it's because he and his team didn't understand that a mask is to protect others not protect yourself. Several of them stated that "if people feel safer still wearing masks, that's fine", but they then got quite a lot of comments and started recommending that people might still want to wear them when using public transport, but no mention of supermarkets that I've heard of yet.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I think they should make people wear masks in areas where old and potentially scared people have to visit, like public transport and supermarkets, otherwise we need to let people make their own minds up.

I don't like masks and feel the benefits are slightly overrated as particles still get through, but would happily wear them in those places to reassure others.

Basic Masks are a one way protection they prevent the wearer spreading covid particles but dont stop wearer catching covid but does lessen the risk considerably....
Only pp3 level masks are effective for both. But I believe masks should be mandatory in shops and any public building for next 2 months just to make sure got enough vaccinated? Because If dont lift restrictions now we'll end up with winter respiration problems clouding the landscape and will be in lockdown until may.

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nano particles,smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.

Nailed it in one, if masks don't protect you then they certainly do not protect anyone else.

by TheHangedMan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:48 am

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nanoparticles, smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.

I sent virtually the same question to Dr. Chris Smith, the virologist from the University of Cambridge who appears on the BBC months ago and the answer was that the particles come out from your nose and mouth, both of which can be stopped by the mask. If somebody not wearing a mask coughs your mask would protect you breathing it in, but the particles can still get to you 2 ways:-

1) they land on things that you then touch, hence the constant message to wash your hands or use sanitizer in supermarkets;
2) the one I didn't know was that it can also enter a person's system via their tear ducts which are not protected with the mask and apparently the reason that hospital staff wear masks and have plastic shields over their faces to protect their tear ducts.

The bolded bit is very much debunked now, the scientific consensus has changed since March last year - covid is an aersol based virus which means it hangs in the air. The overwhelming way you catch it is by being in a indoor space where someone who has had the virus has been. Masks are useless keeping the virus in and out and a read of the Sage minutes and Dr Fauci's personal e-mails show that the medical community know this but use them to keep the fear of the virus in peoples minds to control their behaviour towards compliance.

Full stadiums in England next season.

4500 odd rattling around in the CCS until Drakeford decides that's not "cautious" enough and restricts it further.

I know it is basically heresy but if MD does not allow a decent crowd all Welsh sports teams should announce they will play home games in England until he does. Imagine the pressure and embarrassment that would heap upon him, he would cave before the week is out and we would never have to do so.

by pembroke allan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:33 am

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

About 5 years was the figure that I'd heard as well, but that was before the latest surge in cases, so I agree that it now looks
5 yrs plus.

As for Boris, I think it's because he and his team didn't understand that a mask is to protect others not protect yourself. Several of them stated that "if people feel safer still wearing masks, that's fine", but they then got quite a lot of comments and started recommending that people might still want to wear them when using public transport, but no mention of supermarkets that I've heard of yet.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I think they should make people wear masks in areas where old and potentially scared people have to visit, like public transport and supermarkets, otherwise we need to let people make their own minds up.

I don't like masks and feel the benefits are slightly overrated as particles still get through, but would happily wear them in those places to reassure others.

Basic Masks are a one way protection they prevent the wearer spreading covid particles but dont stop wearer catching covid but does lessen the risk considerably....
Only pp3 level masks are effective for both. But I believe masks should be mandatory in shops and any public building for next 2 months just to make sure got enough vaccinated? Because If dont lift restrictions now we'll end up with winter respiration problems clouding the landscape and will be in lockdown until may.

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nano particles,smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.

Nailed it in one, if masks don't protect you then they certainly do not protect anyone else.

You may not have read other posts or you'll see the rationale for wearing them... same as vaccination is not 100% protection but affords greater protection than not having a vaccination at all .... these things are in the public domain if want more info..

I see Sir Sven is in the house and spouting his grand superior wisdom.

My take is this and that the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Slow and steady is the way. Its only football ffs, season ticket holders only. Show your 2 jab id perhaps??? Jusst temporary till we get through this.

Vaccine passports is probably the best way to reduce the risk of spread.

Why? Vaccines don't stop transmission by much if at all. If they do they have actually monumentally cocked up. Best way to finish this is for the virus to spread and become weaker as all viruses become endemic if allowed to spread. If the vaccines stop transmission the virus will evolve to become stronger to overcome the vaccine. If the vaccine simply reduces the risk of dying/hospitalisation it has done an excellent job.

If Vaccines work, why need vaccine passports?

If they don't, why need vaccine passports?

Vaccinations have been proven to have a significant impact in reducing the spread?

It has a far greater impact again on hospitalisation and death agreed which is also a positive.

Vaccines do work at preventing the spread to an extent, so this will reduce the spread and lower the numbers.

We need vaccination passports to make the ill and weak feel safer to go out and socialise this is good for their mental health, and we mostly need them to encourage the uptake, many people will have them to go on holiday and go to the pub.

We are striving for heard immunity and need an uptake in vaccinations and an uptake in young and fit people catching covid -19 and building immunity, we are getting close to gaining control, although it needs to get worse before it gets better.

by mjw6150 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:25 pm

Scoularite wrote:
by TheHangedMan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:48 am

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nanoparticles, smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.


I sent virtually the same question to Dr. Chris Smith, the virologist from the University of Cambridge who appears on the BBC months ago and the answer was that the particles come out from your nose and mouth, both of which can be stopped by the mask. If somebody not wearing a mask coughs your mask would protect you breathing it in, but the particles can still get to you 2 ways:-

1) they land on things that you then touch, hence the constant message to wash your hands or use sanitizer in supermarkets;
2) the one I didn't know was that it can also enter a person's system via their tear ducts which are not protected with the mask and apparently the reason that hospital staff wear masks and have plastic shields over their faces to protect their tear ducts.


The bolded bit is very much debunked now, the scientific consensus has changed since March last year - covid is an aersol based virus which means it hangs in the air. The overwhelming way you catch it is by being in a indoor space where someone who has had the virus has been. Masks are useless keeping the virus in and out and a read of the Sage minutes and Dr Fauci's personal e-mails show that the medical community know this but use them to keep the fear of the virus in peoples minds to control their behaviour towards compliance.

I don't have access to Dr. Fauci's personal e.mails, but I do know that everyone knew from day one that it was an air-based virus, but the question has always been how far does it travel before it lands on some surface, as it does not have the capability to stay airborne indefinitely.

I also find it strange that any government would want to do something that rips their own economy apart, and why would so many of the medical communities worldwide all want to do the same?

by pembroke allan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:33 am

For once I agree with drakeford about masks and not sure why boris
wouldnt kept masks for another 2 months now got situation where the ones not vaccinated or had 1 jab wont bother to get vaccinated why should they when free to go anywhere no restrictions unless they implement vaccine passports..... as for the suggestion of non covid hospitals that as been in place for quite a while but mainly with a hospital being split into red and green zones? With strict protocols not even myself can access covid free areas to pick patients up they come to me...and things are picking up but tbh do not expect waiting lists to ever be cleared to pre pandemic levels certainly not within next 5yrs probably longer thats from me working within nhs hospitals..

About 5 years was the figure that I'd heard as well, but that was before the latest surge in cases, so I agree that it now looks
5 yrs plus.

As for Boris, I think it's because he and his team didn't understand that a mask is to protect others not protect yourself. Several of them stated that "if people feel safer still wearing masks, that's fine", but they then got quite a lot of comments and started recommending that people might still want to wear them when using public transport, but no mention of supermarkets that I've heard of yet.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I think they should make people wear masks in areas where old and potentially scared people have to visit, like public transport and supermarkets, otherwise we need to let people make their own minds up.

I don't like masks and feel the benefits are slightly overrated as particles still get through, but would happily wear them in those places to reassure others.

Basic Masks are a one way protection they prevent the wearer spreading covid particles but dont stop wearer catching covid but does lessen the risk considerably....
Only pp3 level masks are effective for both. But I believe masks should be mandatory in shops and any public building for next 2 months just to make sure got enough vaccinated? Because If dont lift restrictions now we'll end up with winter respiration problems clouding the landscape and will be in lockdown until may.

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nano particles,smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.

Nailed it in one, if masks don't protect you then they certainly do not protect anyone else.

You may not have read other posts or you'll see the rationale for wearing them... same as vaccination is not 100% protection but affords greater protection than not having a vaccination at all .... these things are in the public domain if want more info..

The only studies on the effectiveness of masks showed they make little to no impact on spread. See ‘Danmask study’

I see Sir Sven is in the house and spouting his grand superior wisdom.

My take is this and that the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Slow and steady is the way. Its only football ffs, season ticket holders only. Show your 2 jab id perhaps??? Jusst temporary till we get through this.

Vaccine passports is probably the best way to reduce the risk of spread.

Why? Vaccines don't stop transmission by much if at all. If they do they have actually monumentally cocked up. Best way to finish this is for the virus to spread and become weaker as all viruses become endemic if allowed to spread. If the vaccines stop transmission the virus will evolve to become stronger to overcome the vaccine. If the vaccine simply reduces the risk of dying/hospitalisation it has done an excellent job.

If Vaccines work, why need vaccine passports?

If they don't, why need vaccine passports?

Vaccinations have been proven to have a significant impact in reducing the spread?

It has a far greater impact again on hospitalisation and death agreed which is also a positive.

Vaccines do work at preventing the spread to an extent, so this will reduce the spread and lower the numbers.

We need vaccination passports to make the ill and weak feel safer to go out and socialise this is good for their mental health, and we mostly need them to encourage the uptake, many people will have them to go on holiday and go to the pub.

We are striving for heard immunity and need an uptake in vaccinations and an uptake in young and fit people catching covid -19 and building immunity, we are getting close to gaining control, although it needs to get worse before it gets better.

That’s far from proven, we will see for sure this winter. We hadlow cases last summer without a vaccine and despite eat out to help out etc. Other unvaccinated countries also seeing lowering cases. Cases in vaccinated are rising quickly whilst cases in unvaccinated starting to steady and decline according to ZOE app. As I said that’s irrelevant as a successful vaccine would not provide protection against transmission only symptoms. If it does then they have cocked up massively as the virus will grow stronger as opposed to weaken in order to overcome the protection. It won’t become endemic.

Cases are not important as long as hospitalisations and deaths don’t increase!

by mjw6150 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:25 pm

Scoularite wrote:
by TheHangedMan » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:48 am

Sorry Allan, you have confused me. Can you explain how nanoparticles, smaller than the "pores" in a mask, can only go one way. i.e. inwards to the mouth but not outwards from the mouth. That does not make sense but you may well have scientific evidence to back up your claim. Cheers.


I sent virtually the same question to Dr. Chris Smith, the virologist from the University of Cambridge who appears on the BBC months ago and the answer was that the particles come out from your nose and mouth, both of which can be stopped by the mask. If somebody not wearing a mask coughs your mask would protect you breathing it in, but the particles can still get to you 2 ways:-

1) they land on things that you then touch, hence the constant message to wash your hands or use sanitizer in supermarkets;
2) the one I didn't know was that it can also enter a person's system via their tear ducts which are not protected with the mask and apparently the reason that hospital staff wear masks and have plastic shields over their faces to protect their tear ducts.


The bolded bit is very much debunked now, the scientific consensus has changed since March last year - covid is an aersol based virus which means it hangs in the air. The overwhelming way you catch it is by being in a indoor space where someone who has had the virus has been. Masks are useless keeping the virus in and out and a read of the Sage minutes and Dr Fauci's personal e-mails show that the medical community know this but use them to keep the fear of the virus in peoples minds to control their behaviour towards compliance.

I don't have access to Dr. Fauci's personal e.mails, but I do know that everyone knew from day one that it was an air-based virus, but the question has always been how far does it travel before it lands on some surface, as it does not have the capability to stay airborne indefinitely.

I also find it strange that any government would want to do something that rips their own economy apart, and why would so many of the medical communities worldwide all want to do the same?

His emails were leaked and caused a huge scandal in US, even BBC reported it here…

I didn’t say anything of that note so I’m not sure how to respond. The only reason they would do such a thing if they were is to protect themselves from criticism just in case…

by mjw6150 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:34 pm




His emails were leaked and caused a huge scandal in US, even BBC reported it here…

I didn’t say anything of that note so I’m not sure how to respond. The only reason they would do such a thing if they were is to protect themselves from criticism just in case…

The scandal could have been because he did not realise that gravity would cause any particles to land on something, which is why the rest of the world realised that people needed to wash their hands and use sanitizer.

Maybe he'd seen too many sci-fi films.

I see Sir Sven is in the house and spouting his grand superior wisdom.

My take is this and that the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Slow and steady is the way. Its only football ffs, season ticket holders only. Show your 2 jab id perhaps??? Jusst temporary till we get through this.

Vaccine passports is probably the best way to reduce the risk of spread.

Why? Vaccines don't stop transmission by much if at all. If they do they have actually monumentally cocked up. Best way to finish this is for the virus to spread and become weaker as all viruses become endemic if allowed to spread. If the vaccines stop transmission the virus will evolve to become stronger to overcome the vaccine. If the vaccine simply reduces the risk of dying/hospitalisation it has done an excellent job.

If Vaccines work, why need vaccine passports?

If they don't, why need vaccine passports?

Vaccinations have been proven to have a significant impact in reducing the spread?

It has a far greater impact again on hospitalisation and death agreed which is also a positive.

Vaccines do work at preventing the spread to an extent, so this will reduce the spread and lower the numbers.

We need vaccination passports to make the ill and weak feel safer to go out and socialise this is good for their mental health, and we mostly need them to encourage the uptake, many people will have them to go on holiday and go to the pub.

We are striving for heard immunity and need an uptake in vaccinations and an uptake in young and fit people catching covid -19 and building immunity, we are getting close to gaining control, although it needs to get worse before it gets better.

That’s far from proven, we will see for sure this winter. We hadlow cases last summer without a vaccine and despite eat out to help out etc. Other unvaccinated countries also seeing lowering cases. Cases in vaccinated are rising quickly whilst cases in unvaccinated starting to steady and decline according to ZOE app. As I said that’s irrelevant as a successful vaccine would not provide protection against transmission only symptoms. If it does then they have cocked up massively as the virus will grow stronger as opposed to weaken in order to overcome the protection. It won’t become endemic.

Cases are not important as long as hospitalisations and deaths don’t increase!

I agree with most of what you say, but the vaccine is reducing the spread in two ways;

1/ it reduces the chances of you catching it significantly, but you still can catch it, especially if your immunity is wearing off, ie people who are weak. old or in poor health or have had the vaccine a long time ago.

2/ People who have been vaccinated that catch the virus are significantly less likely to pass it on, that's the reason many scientists like the idea of vaccination passports. It reduces the virus in the nose at the time of infection, More virus in the nose has been linked to greater infectiousness and increased risks of onward transmission.

I see Sir Sven is in the house and spouting his grand superior wisdom.

My take is this and that the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Slow and steady is the way. Its only football ffs, season ticket holders only. Show your 2 jab id perhaps??? Jusst temporary till we get through this.

Vaccine passports is probably the best way to reduce the risk of spread.

Why? Vaccines don't stop transmission by much if at all. If they do they have actually monumentally cocked up. Best way to finish this is for the virus to spread and become weaker as all viruses become endemic if allowed to spread. If the vaccines stop transmission the virus will evolve to become stronger to overcome the vaccine. If the vaccine simply reduces the risk of dying/hospitalisation it has done an excellent job.

If Vaccines work, why need vaccine passports?

If they don't, why need vaccine passports?

Vaccinations have been proven to have a significant impact in reducing the spread?

It has a far greater impact again on hospitalisation and death agreed which is also a positive.

Vaccines do work at preventing the spread to an extent, so this will reduce the spread and lower the numbers.

We need vaccination passports to make the ill and weak feel safer to go out and socialise this is good for their mental health, and we mostly need them to encourage the uptake, many people will have them to go on holiday and go to the pub.

We are striving for heard immunity and need an uptake in vaccinations and an uptake in young and fit people catching covid -19 and building immunity, we are getting close to gaining control, although it needs to get worse before it gets better.

That’s far from proven, we will see for sure this winter. We hadlow cases last summer without a vaccine and despite eat out to help out etc. Other unvaccinated countries also seeing lowering cases. Cases in vaccinated are rising quickly whilst cases in unvaccinated starting to steady and decline according to ZOE app. As I said that’s irrelevant as a successful vaccine would not provide protection against transmission only symptoms. If it does then they have cocked up massively as the virus will grow stronger as opposed to weaken in order to overcome the protection. It won’t become endemic.

Cases are not important as long as hospitalisations and deaths don’t increase!

Cases are growing this year because of the delta variant it's 66% more transmissible, so it's going to be tricky but with it flying around like it is there are going to be an increase in cases, but it's doing much less damage to the NHS and killing many less people.

When comparing vaccinated people and unvaccinated people don't forget it's like comparing old sick people with poor immune systems with fit young people with strong immune responses, so we will see vaccinated people catch covid and go to hospital and die as many of them are 80 plus.

Drakeford as said today that he does not intend to make it easy to travel! The title of this thread is appropriate.

Drakeford as said today that he does not intend to make it easy to travel! The title of this thread is appropriate.

Allan, I've travelled the UK extensively in the last few weeks and not a single sign of any anti-travel sentiment from WAG or anyone else...

It's just rhetoric and Drakeford alluded to this himself when he said "It will be difficult to stop people travelling..."

Boris, by default, has opened the floodgates and people are teeming through in search of their annual holidays

Of course, the Forum's Martin Lewis, B£ue 'Two Jabs' £agoon won't be travelling to his claimed Florida Manse, as President Biden is still keeping his borders closed to citizens of the UK (and other places)

Personally, I am one that thinks a pragmatic approach is needed as we approach reopening; but there will never be a 'right' time, if Drakeford's assumption is that the virus has to be eradicated first...

Just ain't going to happen, so we need to control it as best we can, as we do with other constant diseases

Drakeford as said today that he does not intend to make it easy to travel! The title of this thread is appropriate.

Allan, I've travelled the UK extensively in the last few weeks and not a single sign of any anti-travel sentiment from WAG or anyone else...

It's just rhetoric and Drakeford alluded to this himself when he said "It will be difficult to stop people travelling..."

Boris, by default, has opened the floodgates and people are teeming through in search of their annual holidays

Of course, the Forum's Martin Lewis, B£ue 'Two Jabs' £agoon won't be travelling to his claimed Florida Manse, as President Biden is still keeping his borders closed to citizens of the UK (and other places)

Personally, I am one that thinks a pragmatic approach is needed as we approach reopening; but there will never be a 'right' time, if Drakeford's assumption is that the virus has to be eradicated first...

Just ain't going to happen, so we need to control it as best we can, as we do with other constant diseases

Chris he said this...
First Minister Mark Drakeford says that he does not want to make it easier for people to travel abroad amid criticism over the costs of Covid tests.....
Mr Drakeford said he had no plans to change the policy. There was more but you get impression he wont lift certain restrictions until no more covid which as we know (not him) wont happen but do agree on masks still being mandatory otherwise if make it advisable younger people wont feel need for vaccination......(boris got this wrong) restrictions need to be lifted before it's to late winter flu ect will be here with a vengeance if believe experts and that will cause to much pressure on nhs? a reason he wont lift restrictions in 1st place.... if hes not careful hes going to have people ignoring him even more than they are now when see the freedom in England at least.... no easy answers but theres careful and theres hesitation hesitate to long and things will unravel.

Drakeford as said today that he does not intend to make it easy to travel! The title of this thread is appropriate.

Allan, I've travelled the UK extensively in the last few weeks and not a single sign of any anti-travel sentiment from WAG or anyone else...

It's just rhetoric and Drakeford alluded to this himself when he said "It will be difficult to stop people travelling..."

Boris, by default, has opened the floodgates and people are teeming through in search of their annual holidays

Of course, the Forum's Martin Lewis, B£ue 'Two Jabs' £agoon won't be travelling to his claimed Florida Manse, as President Biden is still keeping his borders closed to citizens of the UK (and other places)

Personally, I am one that thinks a pragmatic approach is needed as we approach reopening; but there will never be a 'right' time, if Drakeford's assumption is that the virus has to be eradicated first...

Just ain't going to happen, so we need to control it as best we can, as we do with other constant diseases

Chris he said this...
First Minister Mark Drakeford says that he does not want to make it easier for people to travel abroad amid criticism over the costs of Covid tests.....
Mr Drakeford said he had no plans to change the policy. There was more but you get impression he wont lift certain restrictions until no more covid which as we know (not him) wont happen but do agree on masks still being mandatory otherwise if make it advisable younger people wont feel need for vaccination......(boris got this wrong) restrictions need to be lifted before it's to late winter flu ect will be here with a vengeance if believe experts and that will cause to much pressure on nhs? a reason he wont lift restrictions in 1st place.... if hes not careful hes going to have people ignoring him even more than they are now when see the freedom in England at least.... no easy answers but theres careful and theres hesitation hesitate to long and things will unravel.

I thought the flu was eradicted last year. Strange that it will suddenly reapper.....whilst covid figures decline.....mmmm.

Looks like Boris might be the one really screwing up yet again as the Dutch have to change their policy of removing restrictions:

Report by the Independent

First came the easing of lockdown, then came the reimposition of pandemic restrictions, folowed by a humbling apology by the prime minister.
Now comes the reckoning. The Netherlands has learned to its cost that even when three-quarters of its adults are vaccinated, there are still huge risks in reopening. Coronavirus infections have exploded by more than 500 per cent over the last week, the country’s public health institute has said. Nearly 52,000 people in the Netherlands tested positive for COVID-19 over the past week.
With the reopening of nightclubs, the institute found that almost four in ten of the new infections happened in a hospitality venue such as a bar or club. Infections among people ages 18-24 surged by 262 per cent, followed by a 191 per cent rise for 25-29 year-olds.
After restrictions in Dutch nightclubs were lifted on June 26, coronavirus infections surged twelvefold to their highest levels in a year: from just 806 cases a day on July 1, they reached 3,646 on July 7 and 10,345 on Saturday, July 10. Even as a seven-day rolling average, the numbers rose tenfold between June 30 and July 12 to 6,667. That works out at 345 cases per million, with only Britain (477) and Cyprus (1,012) having higher infection rates in Europe.
On Tuesday, for the first time since the start of the coronavirus pandemic, the reproduction (R) number had climbed to over two other people, reaching 2.17. The spike in infections has not yet led to a notable rise in hospital admissions, but the government has now warned that this could be threatened by the current “unprecedented” increase in infections.
Around 1,260 people likely went to nightclubs in the past two weeks while they were infected, according to data analyst Martijn de Riet, who says this led to around 30 superspreader events. But while the government blamed irresponsible, infected youngsters for faking QR codes to get into venues, Mr de Riet says the real issue was a testing system with too many false negatives.
“It means that 0.3% of last weekend’s 420,000 tests were falsely negative. That’s 1,260 people with Covid19 who happily went into the pub with a green tick mark,” he said. “There is no reason to believe that cheating QRs are the cause of this outbreak. This is pure gaslighting.”
The Dutch experience is a salutory lesson for any country that feels confident enough to lift, wholesale, coronavirus restrictions.
The experiment lasted barely two weeks.
From June 26, Mark Rutte, the PM announced that face masks would, in most cases, be ditched. No limits were set on the number of guests allowed in stores, bars and restaurants. “This is a special moment,” he said. Mr Rutte was not wrong.
The plans were reversed by early July after the massive spike in infections, with bars, restaurants and nightclubs closed once again to indoor service last Friday. Mr Rutte on Monday offered his mea culpa to the nation.
“What we thought would be possible, turned out not to be possible in practice,” he said. “We had poor judgement, which we regret and for which we apologise.”
Now, the country’s top virologists claim their warnings about easing lockdown rules at the end of June were ignored by politicians.

Looks like Boris might be the one really screwing up yet again as the Dutch have to change their policy of removing restrictions:

Report by the Independent

First came the easing of lockdown, then came the reimposition of pandemic restrictions, folowed by a humbling apology by the prime minister.
Now comes the reckoning. The Netherlands has learned to its cost that even when three-quarters of its adults are vaccinated, there are still huge risks in reopening. Coronavirus infections have exploded by more than 500 per cent over the last week, the country’s public health institute has said. Nearly 52,000 people in the Netherlands tested positive for COVID-19 over the past week.
With the reopening of nightclubs, the institute found that almost four in ten of the new infections happened in a hospitality venue such as a bar or club. Infections among people ages 18-24 surged by 262 per cent, followed by a 191 per cent rise for 25-29 year-olds.
After restrictions in Dutch nightclubs were lifted on June 26, coronavirus infections surged twelvefold to their highest levels in a year: from just 806 cases a day on July 1, they reached 3,646 on July 7 and 10,345 on Saturday, July 10. Even as a seven-day rolling average, the numbers rose tenfold between June 30 and July 12 to 6,667. That works out at 345 cases per million, with only Britain (477) and Cyprus (1,012) having higher infection rates in Europe.
On Tuesday, for the first time since the start of the coronavirus pandemic, the reproduction (R) number had climbed to over two other people, reaching 2.17. The spike in infections has not yet led to a notable rise in hospital admissions, but the government has now warned that this could be threatened by the current “unprecedented” increase in infections.
Around 1,260 people likely went to nightclubs in the past two weeks while they were infected, according to data analyst Martijn de Riet, who says this led to around 30 superspreader events. But while the government blamed irresponsible, infected youngsters for faking QR codes to get into venues, Mr de Riet says the real issue was a testing system with too many false negatives.
“It means that 0.3% of last weekend’s 420,000 tests were falsely negative. That’s 1,260 people with Covid19 who happily went into the pub with a green tick mark,” he said. “There is no reason to believe that cheating QRs are the cause of this outbreak. This is pure gaslighting.”
The Dutch experience is a salutory lesson for any country that feels confident enough to lift, wholesale, coronavirus restrictions.
The experiment lasted barely two weeks.
From June 26, Mark Rutte, the PM announced that face masks would, in most cases, be ditched. No limits were set on the number of guests allowed in stores, bars and restaurants. “This is a special moment,” he said. Mr Rutte was not wrong.
The plans were reversed by early July after the massive spike in infections, with bars, restaurants and nightclubs closed once again to indoor service last Friday. Mr Rutte on Monday offered his mea culpa to the nation.
“What we thought would be possible, turned out not to be possible in practice,” he said. “We had poor judgement, which we regret and for which we apologise.”
Now, the country’s top virologists claim their warnings about easing lockdown rules at the end of June were ignored by politicians.

That was a hard read, but enlightening at the same time...