EXCLUSIVE: CITY TO FACE £30MILL BILL WITH LOSS OF £14MILL

The possibility that this young man has lost his life in such tragic circumstances is truly heartbreaking. Of course, our first thoughts should be with his family and loved ones.

However, since some may be speculating as to the financial loss that Cardiff City Football Club may face, let's make sure that we get it right.

It is some time since I worked in the field of Contract Law so I may be incorrect in my assessment of this matter, so maybe a practising lawyer could comment.

Presumably, there are 2 contracts involving Emiliano Sala, which we need to look at.

The first contract is the contract for the purchase of the player himself. In this case it would appear that Cardiff City would be liable for the full purchase price (although questions could be asked about the Agents fee should be paid if it turns out that the Agent was liable).

But the reason I decided to register and comment on this forum is because the second correct, that between the club and the player may need more attention.

It is being suggested that Cardiff City are liable to pay all the players wages for the full length of his contract, presumably to his heir or heirs.

I don't believe that this is correct. In this case, if as sadly seems likely, Emiliano is unable to perform his contract to play for the club, or at least be available to play, then Cardiff City will be legally entitled to terminate the contract due to "frustration" of that contract.

http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Frustrated-contracts.php

The club may make a goodwill payment to the players family but would certainly not be contractually bound to do so.

So, it seems to me, and like I say I may be wrong, that if City have insurance in place which will cover the transfer fee then they will not lose a massive amount of money as a result of this awful situation.

I think the official search was called off too soon and am pleased to hear that further attempts are being made to find Emiliano and the pilot.

Contract Law.... Without reading the contract, how can you honestly make presumptions?

With no knowledge of contract law, how can you possibly even comment or post your childish emojis?

I was only trying to help. As a football club, we have enough to worry about without having to find an additional £15 million. Money which could and should be spent to keep us in the Premier League.

For your information, though, a contract is a contract and any contract can be terminated due to impossibility which frustrates the contract.

Why not actually look it up before making your insulting comments?

with no knowledge of contract law..
your base for the post is a newspaper article which contains zero actual figures
and zero actual quotes from anyone at the club re fees, insurance , monies.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound rude/condescending but as above without any facts nobody can presume.

That's OK - I think we are all feeling a little on edge at the moment after the strain of the last 5 days!
I just wanted to make the point that the headline of this particular is almost certainly not true - at least as far as an obligation to pay Emiliano Sala's wages are concerned. Don't we get enough of Project Fear these days?
I used to post on this forum under the name Casual but that was probably over 10 years ago - I forgot my password and which email address I used so created a new member identity instead!
I don't forget the law though, so I am 99% certain that what I said is correct. I haven't seen the contract but all contracts can be terminated in circumstances such as this. Likewise, of course, I have not seen evidence of any insurance policy, I am just a member of the public, and clearly my comments were made on the assumption that statements made about the life insurance policy were correct.

The possibility that this young man has lost his life in such tragic circumstances is truly heartbreaking. Of course, our first thoughts should be with his family and loved ones.

However, since some may be speculating as to the financial loss that Cardiff City Football Club may face, let's make sure that we get it right.

It is some time since I worked in the field of Contract Law so I may be incorrect in my assessment of this matter, so maybe a practising lawyer could comment.

Presumably, there are 2 contracts involving Emiliano Sala, which we need to look at.

The first contract is the contract for the purchase of the player himself. In this case it would appear that Cardiff City would be liable for the full purchase price (although questions could be asked about the Agents fee should be paid if it turns out that the Agent was liable).

But the reason I decided to register and comment on this forum is because the second correct, that between the club and the player may need more attention.

It is being suggested that Cardiff City are liable to pay all the players wages for the full length of his contract, presumably to his heir or heirs.

I don't believe that this is correct. In this case, if as sadly seems likely, Emiliano is unable to perform his contract to play for the club, or at least be available to play, then Cardiff City will be legally entitled to terminate the contract due to "frustration" of that contract.

http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Frustrated-contracts.php

The club may make a goodwill payment to the players family but would certainly not be contractually bound to do so.

So, it seems to me, and like I say I may be wrong, that if City have insurance in place which will cover the transfer fee then they will not lose a massive amount of money as a result of this awful situation.

I think the official search was called off too soon and am pleased to hear that further attempts are being made to find Emiliano and the pilot.

Contract Law.... Without reading the contract, how can you honestly make presumptions?

With no knowledge of contract law, how can you possibly even comment or post your childish emojis?

I was only trying to help. As a football club, we have enough to worry about without having to find an additional £15 million. Money which could and should be spent to keep us in the Premier League.

For your information, though, a contract is a contract and any contract can be terminated due to impossibility which frustrates the contract.

Why not actually look it up before making your insulting comments?

with no knowledge of contract law..
your base for the post is a newspaper article which contains zero actual figures
and zero actual quotes from anyone at the club re fees, insurance , monies.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound rude/condescending but as above without any facts nobody can presume.

That's OK - I think we are all feeling a little on edge at the moment after the strain of the last 5 days!
I just wanted to make the point that the headline of this particular is almost certainly not true - at least as far as an obligation to pay Emiliano Sala's wages are concerned. Don't we get enough of Project Fear these days?
I used to post on this forum under the name Casual but that was probably over 10 years ago - I forgot my password and which email address I used so created a new member identity instead!
I don't forget the law though, so I am 99% certain that what I said is correct. I haven't seen the contract but all contracts can be terminated in circumstances such as this. Likewise, of course, I have not seen evidence of any insurance policy, I am just a member of the public, and clearly my comments were made on the assumption that statements made about the life insurance policy were correct.

Agree, ultimately we all want what's best for all involved. Just a question, how does 'force majeure' stand in this claim? Surely that will write off any insurance involved?

It’s a complicated mess which will take a year or two (or more) to sort out. Common sense and basic justice will go out of the window once the lawyers are involved ( who will cost far more than £2.5m agents fee). We don’t have a clue at the moment so arguing over pure guesswork is pointless.

A further complication is that the two bodies and the wreckage may never be found, or not found for many months or even years.

The money is bound to be an issue under FFP, which is the biggest problem, as it is bound to be included in the trading losses of the club.

I realise that emotions are running high, but let’s not argue about things we don’t know anything about.

The contract would have had addons and conditions, score X amount of goals bonus, stay in PL bonus etc. Obviously that wont happen now.

You could also argue that the contract stipulates doing something in return for payment. Unfortunately one side of the agreement will be in breach of that and not be able to fulfil the conditions in the contract etc.

Ive never know a situation like this - and I just hope that a sensible approach can be found. If you purchase something in return for payment - you expect that those conditions to be met before you make subsequent payments. SImple law of contract.

The liability will be on whoever booked / arranged the flights, who paid for it , who agreed he could get on the flight and the owners / pilot of the aircraft.

What a mess

Yes whoever arranged that fateful flight is surely culpable? Didn’t it struggle to take off or something a few times? Then request to land not long after, with Emi text8ng his mate saying the plane was terrible. Hindsight I know, but What a terrible decision to take that flight instead of the scheduled one he was looking at previous. I don’t think our club will recover from this, this season, it seems almost irrelevant to the lose Emi’s family and friends will suffer forever more.

I realise that emotions are running high, but let’s not argue about things we don’t know anything about.

I agree, sorry for any offence caused!

The possibility that this young man has lost his life in such tragic circumstances is truly heartbreaking. Of course, our first thoughts should be with his family and loved ones.

However, since some may be speculating as to the financial loss that Cardiff City Football Club may face, let's make sure that we get it right.

It is some time since I worked in the field of Contract Law so I may be incorrect in my assessment of this matter, so maybe a practising lawyer could comment.

Presumably, there are 2 contracts involving Emiliano Sala, which we need to look at.

The first contract is the contract for the purchase of the player himself. In this case it would appear that Cardiff City would be liable for the full purchase price (although questions could be asked about the Agents fee should be paid if it turns out that the Agent was liable).

But the reason I decided to register and comment on this forum is because the second correct, that between the club and the player may need more attention.

It is being suggested that Cardiff City are liable to pay all the players wages for the full length of his contract, presumably to his heir or heirs.

I don't believe that this is correct. In this case, if as sadly seems likely, Emiliano is unable to perform his contract to play for the club, or at least be available to play, then Cardiff City will be legally entitled to terminate the contract due to "frustration" of that contract.

http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Frustrated-contracts.php

The club may make a goodwill payment to the players family but would certainly not be contractually bound to do so.

So, it seems to me, and like I say I may be wrong, that if City have insurance in place which will cover the transfer fee then they will not lose a massive amount of money as a result of this awful situation.

I think the official search was called off too soon and am pleased to hear that further attempts are being made to find Emiliano and the pilot.

Contract Law.... Without reading the contract, how can you honestly make presumptions?

With no knowledge of contract law, how can you possibly even comment or post your childish emojis?

I was only trying to help. As a football club, we have enough to worry about without having to find an additional £15 million. Money which could and should be spent to keep us in the Premier League.

For your information, though, a contract is a contract and any contract can be terminated due to impossibility which frustrates the contract.

Why not actually look it up before making your insulting comments?

with no knowledge of contract law..
your base for the post is a newspaper article which contains zero actual figures
and zero actual quotes from anyone at the club re fees, insurance , monies.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound rude/condescending but as above without any facts nobody can presume.

That's OK - I think we are all feeling a little on edge at the moment after the strain of the last 5 days!
I just wanted to make the point that the headline of this particular is almost certainly not true - at least as far as an obligation to pay Emiliano Sala's wages are concerned. Don't we get enough of Project Fear these days?
I used to post on this forum under the name Casual but that was probably over 10 years ago - I forgot my password and which email address I used so created a new member identity instead!
I don't forget the law though, so I am 99% certain that what I said is correct. I haven't seen the contract but all contracts can be terminated in circumstances such as this. Likewise, of course, I have not seen evidence of any insurance policy, I am just a member of the public, and clearly my comments were made on the assumption that statements made about the life insurance policy were correct.

Agree, ultimately we all want what's best for all involved. Just a question, how does 'force majeure' stand in this claim? Surely that will write off any insurance involved?

Agreed. I think that Force Majeure would not release the Insurer in this case. That's only my personal opinion, of course! I will not comment further because evidently there are some sad people on here who are only too happy to criticise others for offering their opinion. Its not like I have any agenda here. I have nothing to gain whether people agree with me or not.

I shouldn't worry about it. I'm not aiming this at anyone in this thread, but in general there are some people here who get angry if you know the difference between a simile and a banjo or use any big words. It's something you just have to let run off your back if you want to post here.
There are plenty of perfectly intelligent people on the forum with whom you can engage, but you will get coins thrown as you do so !

I shouldn't worry about it. I'm not aiming this at anyone in this thread, but in general there are some people here who get angry if you know the difference between a simile and a banjo or use any big words. It's something you just have to let run off your back if you want to post here.
There are plenty of perfectly intelligent people on the forum with whom you can engage, but you will get coins thrown as you do so !

OK Thanks!

I shouldn't worry about it. I'm not aiming this at anyone in this thread, but in general there are some people here who get angry if you know the difference between a simile and a banjo or use any big words. It's something you just have to let run off your back if you want to post here.
There are plenty of perfectly intelligent people on the forum with whom you can engage, but you will get coins thrown as you do so !

OK Thanks!

No, hang on. I specifically said there that I didn't mean to associate my comments with what you'd said in this thread or elsewhere for that matter. For clarity I do not in any way classify you with the verbal "coin throwers " ,and I apologise if I gave that impression .

My comment was aimed at the other chap , warning him that some people here, ( NOT you ), are incredibly rude and nasty , and making the point that you've got to be quite thick skinned when you post. I was a bit worried that you'd think I meant you,which was why I put that bit in the original posting. Please accept my apology if I didn't express myself as clearly as I meant to .

As a previous poster quoted there is probably no point speculating at this point as too many factors need to be considered.

If there is a legal claim then who could the defendants be?

Dave Ibbotsen as the pilot - in the same way as a car driver is negligent
Owner of the aircraft
French Air Traffic Control - for allowing a plane to take off "under irregularities" if there are any?
The Agent - If he regularly uses this plane and pilot - he could be "vicariously liable"
etc etc etc

Remember, certainly in UK law, just because an event happened doesnt mean that someone is automatically liable - there has to be "Negligence" - and that has to be proven.

And in this situation you also have to prove that a fatality has occurred - and this is where I see a potential problem. In UK Law a person can only be declared dead if there is no sign of them for 7 years - (i.e. as in the case of Richey in Manic Street Preachers).

As someone who works in law these are just some of the initial questions I am thinking. And like a previous poster quoted this is not even scratching the surface.

The legal stuff is for another day though. Two guys have potentially died. The important thing is not who pays but that they are found and returned to their respective families - so, if the worst has happened, they can be given a proper burial and the families have a place they can visit.

This is such a tragic scenario but I think us. Our fans, Our Owners. Our Players and Staff, Ken, Mehmet and VT have all come out of this with a huge amount of dignity. In sad times we have all come together and realised what is important and what isnt.

As a previous poster quoted there is probably no point speculating at this point as too many factors need to be considered.

If there is a legal claim then who could the defendants be?

Dave Ibbotsen as the pilot - in the same way as a car driver is negligent
Owner of the aircraft
French Air Traffic Control - for allowing a plane to take off "under irregularities" if there are any?
The Agent - If he regularly uses this plane and pilot - he could be "vicariously liable"
etc etc etc

Remember, certainly in UK law, just because an event happened doesnt mean that someone is automatically liable - there has to be "Negligence" - and that has to be proven.

And in this situation you also have to prove that a fatality has occurred - and this is where I see a potential problem. In UK Law a person can only be declared dead if there is no sign of them for 7 years - (i.e. as in the case of Richey in Manic Street Preachers).

As someone who works in law these are just some of the initial questions I am thinking. And like a previous poster quoted this is not even scratching the surface.

The legal stuff is for another day though. Two guys have potentially died. The important thing is not who pays but that they are found and returned to their respective families - so, if the worst has happened, they can be given a proper burial and the families have a place they can visit.

This is such a tragic scenario but I think us. Our fans, Our Owners. Our Players and Staff, Ken, Mehmet and VT have all come out of this with a huge amount of dignity. In sad times we have all come together and realised what is important and what isnt.

I hesitate to perpetuate this , because my point remains, but the identity of defendants, respondents and parties will be many and varied. They will snowball as the litigation proceeds. Leaving aside possible criminal culpability , this will be largely a civil matter, in which everyone will try to shift or mitigate their alleged liabilities onto someone else, and they'll be doing that in two or three Continents as I explained.
For example, and this is a very easy one for the purposes of illustration,( and I stress merely an hypothetical). If Cardiff City say that they are indemnified for their loss by a particular insurance policy, that insurance company will automatically refuse the claim on the basis of some argument or another , and the club will have to sue them to try and make them pay. They will resist no doubt. If they are found liable or agree liability, they will look to someone else to shift their liability onto - for example the French airport, the pilot's indemnity insurers or whoever . All recipients of suits will do the same and I can confidently predict an intricate game of legal " pass the parcel ".
Judgements are also likely to be sought or obtained in France, the USA and Argentina. Then they'll all be trying to enforce them in other jurisdictions and it will get more and more ridiculous as the legal costs billow, and these additional costs are added to eventual payouts .
I expect that it will eventually be settled by consent, but that will take years. It's correct that the seven year thing will apply to some of this litigation, but by no means all of it.
As I said, unless you're a QC being paid a lot of money and in possession of the documents and other voluminous evidence , and you've got a couple of years to spare, don't even go there.
I only took the time to explain that because you mentioned that you're in the trade. Anyone who gives you an opinion on the course and outcome at this time is a complete dick though. It's not a simple matter and even if it were, there's enough money and politics in the mix to guarantee that it will become intricately complicated.
The only thing I can safely predict is that the professional fees will buy quite a few Italian sports cars and boats for people in the Inns.

Sir Jimmy thank you for your response. Yes I am "in the trade" so to speak. Years ago I used to be one of the clubs photographers. But my main line of work, for the last 25 years, has been Personal Injury claims - which include fatalities. I used to work for Admiral (when in Cardiff) I now work for a top 500 legal company in Manchester.

I have also been involved in Historical Football Abused claims and most notably the cases involving Bob Higgins and Barry Bennell.

As you rightly say this one is a "long runner" and because of my legal background I can think of so many questions that I would ask but there are no doubt hundreds more that a QC would want to ask. And, following the disappearance of "canoe man" a few years ago I really do think some of the Lloyds Insurers and ReInsurers (who would no doubt will be dealing with this) will want to know they are dealing with a confirmed fatality as opposed to a disappearance - hence the point about 7 years

As you say I dont think this one will be settled soon.

I think the club will do the right thing. There is something about our Malaysian Owners that I like. They might be rich but they are extremely humble in times like this and I really like that.

Its just an extremely sad situation and I hope Sala and the pilot are found - so that the families can find some peace.

FairPlay there are some beauty’s on this forum. What makes you think we will have to pay Salas wages for 3 years, unfortunately due to his passing away he has defaulted on his contract and won’t be paid a penny. The insurance will cover the fee to Nantes, but I wouldn’t give the agents a penny.

Sir Jimmy thank you for your response. Yes I am "in the trade" so to speak. Years ago I used to be one of the clubs photographers. But my main line of work, for the last 25 years, has been Personal Injury claims - which include fatalities. I used to work for Admiral (when in Cardiff) I now work for a top 500 legal company in Manchester.

I have also been involved in Historical Football Abused claims and most notably the cases involving Bob Higgins and Barry Bennell.

As you rightly say this one is a "long runner" and because of my legal background I can think of so many questions that I would ask but there are no doubt hundreds more that a QC would want to ask. And, following the disappearance of "canoe man" a few years ago I really do think some of the Lloyds Insurers and ReInsurers (who would no doubt will be dealing with this) will want to know they are dealing with a confirmed fatality as opposed to a disappearance - hence the point about 7 years

As you say I dont think this one will be settled soon.

I think the club will do the right thing. There is something about our Malaysian Owners that I like. They might be rich but they are extremely humble in times like this and I really like that.

Its just an extremely sad situation and I hope Sala and the pilot are found - so that the families can find some peace.

Well I was mainly a criminal man, but I've done a bit of civil litigation too of course. I'd been avoiding any canoe talk because it will upset people, but it's certainly a consideration both for the French police and in relation to insurance litigation. Of course the insurers will be trying to make a case for that , since they can refuse liability in the event of fraud.
What you say is, in general, quite accurate, but there are those who wouldn't ordinarily accept instructions for day to day p.i stuff, but will do so in a big case with big fees. Of course, they will come at you in unexpected ways and do all sorts of tricks you wouldn't see in these everyday cases. They'll start applying for summary judgements without notice, employing private detectives to discredit witnesses and trying to shift the proceedings to higher Courts etc etc ad inf.
It'll be a circus of a sort you won't see outside the Bailey or the Strand, and it will all be replicated in other countries , where they will make entirely different judgements .
Thus, the parties who come out of it best will be those who can afford the beat lawyers and the law as it's usually applied won't be a big factor .

Hopefully not and I think the current Cardiff City regime will try to avoid that scenario

I still think it's too early to decide on or start formal actions, as the full facts are still to come and the two men involved in the incident have still not been accounted for

However, reading the report, it suggests that the onus was on the Agent(s) of Emiliano Sala regarding the arrangement of the flight and not Cardiff City FC and it further suggests that insurance is likely to have been in place for the player once he signed his contract two days earlier

Slowly but surely it's unravelling and with some patience the truth will eventually out

You have to think though Nantes dont need to charge the full amount giving the circumstances. This situation is very harsh on the buying club. A compromise fee should be agreed somehow. This really could knock this club back years if we suffer relegation now as we have no asset for the money.

Nantes do need charge full amount. No co promise. We sell you our best player. You buy you pay.

Good to see where your priorities lie Ze Monde.

Dopey c**t,in trying to sound french,he ends up sounding like an angry Chinese shop owner"you buy,you pay"what a dickhead

Sir Jimmy thank you for your response. Yes I am "in the trade" so to speak. Years ago I used to be one of the clubs photographers. But my main line of work, for the last 25 years, has been Personal Injury claims - which include fatalities. I used to work for Admiral (when in Cardiff) I now work for a top 500 legal company in Manchester.

I have also been involved in Historical Football Abused claims and most notably the cases involving Bob Higgins and Barry Bennell.

As you rightly say this one is a "long runner" and because of my legal background I can think of so many questions that I would ask but there are no doubt hundreds more that a QC would want to ask. And, following the disappearance of "canoe man" a few years ago I really do think some of the Lloyds Insurers and ReInsurers (who would no doubt will be dealing with this) will want to know they are dealing with a confirmed fatality as opposed to a disappearance - hence the point about 7 years

As you say I dont think this one will be settled soon.

I think the club will do the right thing. There is something about our Malaysian Owners that I like. They might be rich but they are extremely humble in times like this and I really like that.

Its just an extremely sad situation and I hope Sala and the pilot are found - so that the families can find some peace.

Well I was mainly a criminal man, but I've done a bit of civil litigation too of course. I'd been avoiding any canoe talk because it will upset people, but it's certainly a consideration both for the French police and in relation to insurance litigation. Of course the insurers will be trying to make a case for that , since they can refuse liability in the event of fraud.
What you say is, in general, quite accurate, but there are those who wouldn't ordinarily accept instructions for day to day p.i stuff, but will do so in a big case with big fees. Of course, they will come at you in unexpected ways and do all sorts of tricks you wouldn't see in these everyday cases. They'll start applying for summary judgements without notice, employing private detectives to discredit witnesses and trying to shift the proceedings to higher Courts etc etc ad inf.
It'll be a circus of a sort you won't see outside the Bailey or the Strand, and it will all be replicated in other countries , where they will make entirely different judgements .
Thus, the parties who come out of it best will be those who can afford the beat lawyers and the law as it's usually applied won't be a big factor .

Been thinking about this and I think the best thing for all parties would be an early negotiated settlement and agreement that they won't pursue the matter in other jurisdictions. Something along the lines of half each on the transfer fee and say £10Million to the family, without involving insurance companies. That wouldn't stop any criminal proceedings of course, or prevent the parties separately trying to recover some part of their losses from any insurances which are in place, but it would pre emp the free for all which I've described and reduce legal costs hugely.
Everyone will be going after the plane operator of course, ( rightly or wrongly ), and their insurer if they have one which recognises the claim, but I doubt whether they've got the resources to make this worthwhile.

In the court of fairness - as there are no winners here.
Agents dont get any money.
Any / all assurance and insurance payments claimed go to Nantes and Sala's family (Im guessing he would have had life assurance anyway).
Nantes wont get the whole amount - as the contract wont have been fulfilled. No one wants to go to court as they'll end never being compensated for quite a few years.

If anyone has acted illegally - then obviously the Police will take appropriate action.

Looking at this scenario - what happens if a club sign a player, the player then gets in his friends car, whose tyres are on the edge of being worn. The car crashes and the player is no more. Who is liable then ? - the player ?, the car owner ? , the club for letting him get in a car ? - it is a very very grey area. Other than that if the contract had been signed and agreed by all parties - then the payment should be made. What you will find now is that clauses will now be added to all new contracts that will cover this type of scenario.

I'll be going down the club later to pay my respects, say a little prayer and just hope for any good news.