Immense Signing, but...

Salad you make some good points but I totally disagree with your view on loan players. I have never understood why it is so important to have the likes of Koumas, Oli and Bellamy listed as 'assets'

If we do miss out on promotion then they return to their clubs and we haven't wasted millions on transfer fees or got stuck with huge wage earners for the next 2 to 3 years.

Indeed once they have returned we are free to look at other loanees without again laying out millions in transfer fees.

The way I look at it is similar to owning or leasing a car. You can either buy a car (on finance of course) and be responsible for the insurance and up keep, whilst watching its value deprecate, or lease a brand new car where you get the maximum benefit for the least amount of fuss and you can change for a newer model after a set amount of time.

Depending on your circumstances a lease is far better until you are in a solid financial position to easily afford to buy a car outright.

That is exactly what the Malaysians are doing and whilst creditors might complain the obvious answer to them is we are 'loaning' these 'playing assets' not buying them.

Salad, been reading your posts for many years, going back to the old Echo forum. You always post a balanced view.

With regards to the wages, reading between the lines, I don't think we are paying very much for Bellamy at all. I listened to the Real Radio phone in last night - twice I was so excited!!! Dai Bishop mentioned a few times that we have not got the deal of the century, but the deal of the millennium. Before he mentioned it the second time, he almost slipped up when mentioning his wages.

Cardiff's contribution to the wages in my opinion will be very low, very low (regardless of who is paying them). That this is not being publicised has been agreed with Man City saving a bit of face, again, my opinion.

Anyway, I think things are really looking up down the City and can see us getting some big crowds over the coming months. Who would of thought we would have a team as good as this just a couple of weeks ago?

Stoke got promoted a few seasons back with a lot of loanees in their squad , didnt do them any harm did it ? As for Bellamy's wages I do wonder what the deal is and maybe Man C have played a blinder here and been very honourable

Just hope they've hidden all the Golf Clubs down the Vale!

i think what some of you guys seem to forget is that this will actually worsen our position and i'm still not sure of the malayasians position in all this??? they have to my reckoning invested £10m plus already which i'm sure some of you are not aware is secured against the clubs assets!!! this for me is not such a nice thought.
securing against assets ie the stadium means they have put money in at virtually no risk cos if we don;t go up and then go into administartion or even wound up they will still force us to sell stadium to get their money back, sends chills up my spine to be honest as langston and unsecured debt don't mean anything as they are last on the list should we go boom!!!
thats why mr hamman keeps an interest in things cos he doesn;t want us in administration cos langston probably end up with 10p in every pound we owe!!
although i'm happy for now i am seriously worrying about the future especially with £15m due to langston in december as well how will this be paid??
if it isn;t paid the debt will go back to oringinal £24m

I think we're missing the point here. Although it is a football club to us it is a BUSINESS to the Malaysians. Yes, they want it to succeed but for the satisfaction of making money as well as winning at football.

No-one gets to be a multi-millionaire or even billionaire without taking a few risks, or without sailing close to the wind financially. They happen to be using our club which we are too emotionally attached to look at in a realistic way, which can ultimately make them money. If they don't have to pay a creditor for a week, a month or a year, then they won't do it - that's standard business practice. If you are that creditor then don't be so naive next time and learn your lesson!

Anyone who can make that amount of money can lie straight to your face, and you will be so grateful you will thank them for it. And then they'll rob you blind (although I am sure that they are honourable men).

Now stop worrying and enjoy the ride....!

What the club have saved in getting rid of Ridsdale will pay all the wages as he took as much as these players cost Im sure

Interesting comments guys, especially ref Langston as ever! I'm sure those close to Sam may be able to divulge more, but the list of creditors I alluded to that are unlikely to be so understanding to our plight certainly come no bigger than Sam. It will be interesting to see how he reacts to this news (I'm sure positively in many ways, but not so sure about how well to this can be funded yet he has not been paid back a bean of the vast debt he has been owed for several years) and the ramifications as to how patient he will be, whatever the rights and plentiful wrongs of his time here. Even if he does react positively, many others will certainly not, unless HMRC for instance are kept sweet, I fear our dealings with them will antagonise them hugely leaving a fierce and determined foe. They won't be the only one's and regardless that the reaction of Mr Boyle of Motgerwell can easily be described as hypocritical given his ethical behaviour, both in his personal business (in the travel industry I believe) and not least at Motherwell which included some despicable treatment to some of the lowest paid players in the game, it does not make our actions right nonetheless.

The final point about my old sparring partner Peter, yes, it will save us large amounts of money, but not enough to fund these deals unfortunately. Open to correction, but by my understanding, Ridsdale was on £500k p/a plus bonuses and expenses, Gethin Jenkins is on £60k. That at a guess should save us the best part of a £1m give or take, enough to fund one of the deals, but our wage bill needs reducing, not increasing and even before these spate of expensive signings, was on the limit of what is affordable and sustainable to a club turning over approximately £18m. I stress again, this is without factoring in any debt repayments of which we all know there are many.

Interesting comments guys, especially ref Langston as ever! I'm sure those close to Sam may be able to divulge more, but the list of creditors I alluded to that are unlikely to be so understanding to our plight certainly come no bigger than Sam. It will be interesting to see how he reacts to this news (I'm sure positively in many ways, but not so sure about how well to this can be funded yet he has not been paid back a bean of the vast debt he has been owed for several years) and the ramifications as to how patient he will be, whatever the rights and plentiful wrongs of his time here. Even if he does react positively, many others will certainly not, unless HMRC for instance are kept sweet, I fear our dealings with them will antagonise them hugely leaving a fierce and determined foe. They won't be the only one's and regardless that the reaction of Mr Boyle of Motgerwell can easily be described as hypocritical given his ethical behaviour, both in his personal business (in the travel industry I believe) and not least at Motherwell which included some despicable treatment to some of the lowest paid players in the game, it does not make our actions right nonetheless.

The final point about my old sparring partner Peter, yes, it will save us large amounts of money, but not enough to fund these deals unfortunately. Open to correction, but by my understanding, Ridsdale was on £500k p/a plus bonuses and expenses, Gethin Jenkins is on £60k. That at a guess should save us the best part of a £1m give or take, enough to fund one of the deals, but our wage bill needs reducing, not increasing and even before these spate of expensive signings, was on the limit of what is affordable and sustainable to a club turning over approximately £18m. I stress again, this is without factoring in any debt repayments of which we all know there are many.

salad

sam is quite happy to wait for his money in december and is totally behind the way that the malaysians are running and dealing with the clubs debts.
As i have said before the malaysians think it will cost over 30 million to actually clear debts and have control of the club and although that sounds a horrendous amount of money they think that they are getting a bargain for a club that will be established firmly as one of the top teams in the championship or with a fair wind a lower premiership club this time next year a bargain.
They will also own a stadium that with a little more investment can be extended to a 35k capacity therefore enhancing income and obviously the stadium as an asset.

I completely agree Steve, my concern is that the high profile signing of Bellamy will be counter productive in the Malaysians restructuring the debt in the way they wish, basically slowly. If Sam is on board, it is hugely significant, the question is will others be so understanding? Ultimately, if the Malaysians are prepared to cough up quickly if need be to passify creditors, and these could be sizeable amounts, all good and well, if not, it could cause quite a few problems and they can have no complaints.

The Bellamy thing for me has huge and obvious positives, I just think a bit more balance is required on the subject as it's easy to get lost in the rejoicing without looking at potential downfalls. Not a case of trying to be negative, just objective, as indeed I feel I have been at times of despair when putting a more positive slant on things. Quite aside from the financial aspect and questions of morality (to which I find the outcry from others hypocritical in the extreme), Bellamy brings many other risks whether it be the volatility of his charachter, injury problems, or to a lesser extent upsetting the dynamic of the squad.

Personally, I think it's an incredible signing and hugely positive for the club on so many fronts. Do I think they outweigh the negatives? Yes, I do, there are so many, but do I think it could almost as easily end in tears too? Again, yes.

Salad you make some good points but I totally disagree with your view on loan players. I have never understood why it is so important to have the likes of Koumas, Oli and Bellamy listed as 'assets'

If we do miss out on promotion then they return to their clubs and we haven't wasted millions on transfer fees or got stuck with huge wage earners for the next 2 to 3 years.

Indeed once they have returned we are free to look at other loanees without again laying out millions in transfer fees.

The way I look at it is similar to owning or leasing a car. You can either buy a car (on finance of course) and be responsible for the insurance and up keep, whilst watching its value deprecate, or lease a brand new car where you get the maximum benefit for the least amount of fuss and you can change for a newer model after a set amount of time.

Depending on your circumstances a lease is far better until you are in a solid financial position to easily afford to buy a car outright.

That is exactly what the Malaysians are doing and whilst creditors might complain the obvious answer to them is we are 'loaning' these 'playing assets' not buying them.

I don't drive I'm afraid Tony and not well versed in car dealership! I accept there are some benefits and vague similarities in what you say, indeed as I have pointed out I completely agree the loan system can be a very effective tool, I just despise the system in general and believe it is also a very short term tactic. Where transfers differ hugely from your thesis above is that for all bar the very biggest clubs in the Champions League, and even they are not immune from an occassional dose of reality (Ronaldo for example), player sales are part and parcel of making ends meet for every club. Investing in transfers is completely different from investing in a car because as you rightly say car's depreciate markedly and quickly in value, players do not. Many of our squad have been signed for nominal fees, yet have a vluations in the millions of pounds. I would say of course it is hugely beneficial to have players listed as assets for the reasons I have mentioned earlier. First and foremost, whether we like it or not, it is the easiest and most obvious way to make ends meet, secondly, you will have that many more players to retain as the core of your squad for the coming seasons.

I can't stress enough, I completely get what an effective tool the loan system is and the players brougt in are as good as anything about, but the key to these deals being effective is wholly reliant on gaining promotion. To me it's just a big gamble, albeit one that has every chance of coming off, especially if that elusive back up to Bothroyd and a centre half who can actually defend are also brought in.

I don't drive I'm afraid Tony and not well versed in car dealership! I accept there are some benefits and vague similarities in what you say, indeed as I have pointed out I completely agree the loan system can be a very effective tool, I just despise the system in general and believe it is also a very short term tactic. Where transfers differ hugely from your thesis above is that for all bar the very biggest clubs in the Champions League, and even they are not immune from an occassional dose of reality (Ronaldo for example), player sales are part and parcel of making ends meet for every club. Investing in transfers is completely different from investing in a car because as you rightly say car's depreciate markedly and quickly in value, players do not. Many of our squad have been signed for nominal fees, yet have a vluations in the millions of pounds. I would say of course it is hugely beneficial to have players listed as assets for the reasons I have mentioned earlier. First and foremost, whether we like it or not, it is the easiest and most obvious way to make ends meet, secondly, you will have that many more players to retain as the core of your squad for the coming seasons.

I can't stress enough, I completely get what an effective tool the loan system is and the players brougt in are as good as anything about, but the key to these deals being effective is wholly reliant on gaining promotion. To me it's just a big gamble, albeit one that has every chance of coming off, especially if that elusive back up to Bothroyd and a centre half who can actually defend are also brought in.

A lot of what you say is true, but you have to factor in our present circumstances as well. We are not in a position to spend transfer fees on players with the quality of Koumas, Bellamy and Oli. Indeed you yourself have been hughley critical about the Chopra deal where a huge amount of money was spent on a striker, when we already had a 20 goal a season player in McCormack. (BTW I fully agreed with your viewpoint on that matter)

Also there is a huge difference from buying an unknown Roger Johnson or Glen Loovens for pittance and selling them on for a fortune, to buying players aged 30+ such as Koumas and Bellamy for millions and then watch their value depricate as their contracts run down.

I understand you personally might not like the loan system, but is it really such a gamble when Manchester C are paying most of Bellamy's wages and Koumas costs only the same as Joe Ledley would have?

Salad you make some good points but I totally disagree with your view on loan players. I have never understood why it is so important to have the likes of Koumas, Oli and Bellamy listed as 'assets'

If we do miss out on promotion then they return to their clubs and we haven't wasted millions on transfer fees or got stuck with huge wage earners for the next 2 to 3 years.

Indeed once they have returned we are free to look at other loanees without again laying out millions in transfer fees.

The way I look at it is similar to owning or leasing a car. You can either buy a car (on finance of course) and be responsible for the insurance and up keep, whilst watching its value deprecate, or lease a brand new car where you get the maximum benefit for the least amount of fuss and you can change for a newer model after a set amount of time.

Depending on your circumstances a lease is far better until you are in a solid financial position to easily afford to buy a car outright.

That is exactly what the Malaysians are doing and whilst creditors might complain the obvious answer to them is we are 'loaning' these 'playing assets' not buying them.

I suppose there is the argument that you get more out of players if they are with a club permanently rather than temporarily, but I'm not sure I agree with it though.

The bubble seems to have burst already.

The bubble seems to have burst already.

I'm not sure if the bubble has burst but it certainly looks like it's close to happening.

DJ puled off a great loan signing, problem is could he manage a player who is never shy in speaking his own opinion? We all know of the fall outs DJ has had with numerous other players for speaking out against him, so how was he going to deal with this when Bellamy does, because it was going to happen somewhere along the road.

If he does nothing and let's Bellamy have his say without reacting, then surely the other players will feel they have the right to express their feelings too, something Jones has never liked. This is where I can see the split in the camp happening, and at the end of the day it's DJ's own undoing.

Players are increasingly getting frustrated with DJ's tactics, some like Chopra gets relegated to the bench for opening his mouth, others are maybe quietly losing confidence in Jones, my opinion only, but who knows. This would make those rumours of a unsettled dressing room make sense.

The bubble seems to have burst already.

I'm not sure if the bubble has burst but it certainly looks like it's close to happening.

DJ puled off a great loan signing, problem is could he manage a player who is never shy in speaking his own opinion? We all know of the fall outs DJ has had with numerous other players for speaking out against him, so how was he going to deal with this when Bellamy does, because it was going to happen somewhere along the road.

If he does nothing and let's Bellamy have his say without reacting, then surely the other players will feel they have the right to express their feelings too, something Jones has never liked. This is where I can see the split in the camp happening, and at the end of the day it's DJ's own undoing.

Players are increasingly getting frustrated with DJ's tactics, some like Chopra gets relegated to the bench for opening his mouth, others are maybe quietly losing confidence in Jones, my opinion only, but who knows. This would make those rumours of a unsettled dressing room make sense.

For a dressing room like ours we need a strong manager. Bothroyd, Bellamy, Chopra... three very
strong-willed fellers. I dont think Jones IS strong. He lets certain players have their say, and slams
other players for opening their mouths. Thats weak, not strong. THATS where your dressing room
starts to fall apart.

The bubble seems to have burst already.

I'm not sure if the bubble has burst but it certainly looks like it's close to happening.

DJ puled off a great loan signing, problem is could he manage a player who is never shy in speaking his own opinion? We all know of the fall outs DJ has had with numerous other players for speaking out against him, so how was he going to deal with this when Bellamy does, because it was going to happen somewhere along the road.

If he does nothing and let's Bellamy have his say without reacting, then surely the other players will feel they have the right to express their feelings too, something Jones has never liked. This is where I can see the split in the camp happening, and at the end of the day it's DJ's own undoing.

Players are increasingly getting frustrated with DJ's tactics, some like Chopra gets relegated to the bench for opening his mouth, others are maybe quietly losing confidence in Jones, my opinion only, but who knows. This would make those rumours of a unsettled dressing room make sense.

For a dressing room like ours we need a strong manager. Bothroyd, Bellamy, Chopra... three very
strong-willed fellers. I dont think Jones IS strong. He lets certain players have their say, and slams
other players for opening their mouths. Thats weak, not strong. THATS where your dressing room
starts to fall apart.

This is true. When other managers talk of DJ & say that his [Dave Jones] management style is to let certain players "get on with things" its no wonder we have problems, & its no wonder we have the same problems at exactly the same time of year.
& if its anything like the 06/07 season the same problems will roll on well into next year!

He will come through for us dont you worry!!

A Good and Interesting Debate