Just too many immigrants in Wales

Each to their own but id rather have English living next door to me then a bunch of Muslim migrants. I'm just waiting to be called racist now.

Anyone with a quarter of a brain cell would agree with you on that one.

Would that person with a quarter of a brain cell know what a "Mossie"is? Is it someone covered in moss?

Each to their own but id rather have English living next door to me then a bunch of Muslim migrants. I'm just waiting to be called racist now.

Anyone with a quarter of a brain cell would agree with you on that one.

Would that person with a quarter of a brain cell know what a "Mossie"is? Is it someone covered in moss?

This thread takes some believing doesn't it? I keep thinking this is April 1st not November 1st! Whatever next?

Aren't most people in the valleys of English descent after the mass migration for work in the mines?

Aren't most people in the valleys of English descent after the mass migration for work in the mines?

Many from Ireland came here when they forgot what field they planted their spuds in, at one time Cardiff was 40% Irish. As for the English as long as they don't force people to start Morris Dancing I have no problem with them.

Aren't most people in the valleys of English descent after the mass migration for work in the mines?

Probably. The majority of Welsh people seem to have English surnames.

The point of the opening thread was part tongue in cheek and part to question what the media make us think of as the immigration problem. What is immigration? Who are immigrants? I am not anti any nationality but I appreciate that the numbers of persons coming into the UK needed to be managed / controlled.

The immigration problem / issue in the UK is nothing new, and in my lifetime the media have highlighted the blacks; the Pakistanis and Indians; the Ugandan Asians(!); the eastern Europeans; the Syrians - to name but a few. As if it is their fault.
This just stirs up racist reactions. (The type of reaction like the poster branding me a 'cretin' which speaks volumes about him).
The fault lies with successive governments not controlling numbers properly. When the numbers are not too big the people can be assimilated and integrated.
Turning to Wales, the impact of "immigrants" has been very small. I know hardly any "immigrants" well but those I have met have been fine. I have many English friends and I have no problem with English people. However, as a fact, English people coming over to Wales in large numbers have had far more impact than any "immigrants".
REFER to Daily Telegraph article...."Number of non-Welsh Britons settling in Wales jumps by 17 per cent in 20 years putting Welsh on course to become a minority in their own country within the century ..."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -west.html

But English people living in Wales are not immigrants. How much would you like it if you moved over the bridge only to be described as a migrant?

But English people living in Wales are not immigrants. How much would you like it if you moved over the bridge only to be described as a migrant?

They might not be immigrants, but they move in to the north and west of Wales in their thousands annually bringing their own language and culture with them and totally ignoring our way of life, our language and culture.
Now when that happens in Leicester or Birmingham we call them immigrants...

My problem is not with their nationality, although some english do bring their own colourful traditions over the border - see Rhyl. The problem is the numbers, we're not talking about the people that have married in etc (think of the ones who have married europeans who have a serious problem in 2 years time) - we're talking about the endless drags of society that are hidden in small villages and towns up & down Wales, we're talking about the second home owners, who have turned communities into playgrounds for 3 months a year and leave the place empty for the rest. Resulting in the ultimate welsh saviour 'tourism' - of course our young people want low paid, seasonal work, where the house prices have an affordability level of x 2,000 their wages. Young people need a government that will acknowledge the very problems that lead us to a position of being the poorest part of northern europe. And this begs the question, if our finances are almost completely controlled from westminster, why the hell is welsh independence not our response to westminster trying to claw control of wales lowly. Then you have retirees, who are the biggest burden on the health service taking over as a majority in our coastal towns. Take the north west of england & n wales - we;re talking 5million people that see n wales as 'cheshire by the sea'.
If you think england or scotland would accept being a minority in their own country like we will be soon - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -west.html - then you're mistaken, because as we've seen with ***xit - they clearly won't. Welsh peoples indifference to anything put upon the country is exactly why we're totally ignored in politics which culminates in us remaining perpetually poor.
We've had the tedious debate about immigrants in the UK - that seems to have completely made some welsh people think that all their problems have been made by the foreign man. When in fact, in times of austerity and financial crisis - the immigrants and the poor are blamed, as it's a systematic tactic of governments to deflect blame as to hide their complete failings. The easiest people to pick on, the ones who can't defend themselves. Bankers caused this mess we've been in - greedy bankers. It just reminds me of the story of the banker 'An immigrant, a worker and a banker are sitting at the table with 10 biscuits. The banker takes 9 and then tells the worker "watch out, the immigrant is going to steal your biscuit". This is what's happening and we're being played, it's easy for them.
So what's wrong with wanting skilled english people, people who will add and hopefully respect wales' way of life - and just making sure that the drain on our services are kept away? We're not talking about footballers ffs - this is how dense some of arguments for bettering our country would be - 'could I see my english mates again?' - 'nah mate, I don't want a great health service and a government that creates jobs if it means that i miss the bake off, you can f*ck right off'. Currently the set up of this "union" is to work against wales' interests, I mean 2 of our tory mp's said that cardiff airport couldn't have air passenger duty tax (which would make wales competitive and bring in needed £££) because it would disadvantage bristol airport - now correct me if i'm wrong, but bristol & surrounding areas are one of the wealthiest regions in UK & south wales has some of the the poorest region in northern europe, so we're already at a massive disadvantage anyway - so we'd only be trying to claw up to the level playing field. But we're not allowed to, and this is with support of the 'welsh' mp's - and this is just why we can never ever achieve what we want as a country by being controlled from westminstr.
This is the debate that's been allowed to be played out in 'our' english owned -dominated papers / media on a daily basis the past 2 years - but unfortunately it's a debate we'll never be allowed in our own country - somewhere where it actually is a massive problem.
Lets just see some independence facts;
- there's 100 smaller countries than wales who are independent.
- In fact, of the top 10 wealthiest countries in terms of GDP per capita, 9 have a population of less than 5 million, and 7 of those have a smaller population than Wales. So are we welsh just not clever enough or good enough to do this?
- There is no longer a link between the size of a country and its economic success.
- wales has a £5bn trade surplus - compared to england's massive trade deficit, scotland also has a trade surplus. How doesn't this translate to strong public finances..? Because we've been disgracefully treated by the people in charge of £££ - westminstr.
- 8/10 of the countries who are scored for quality of live, education health etc are small countries.
- last poll on welsh independence was 28% would vote, this was based on being a part of the EU albeit -= but if there's 28% of welsh people willing to go for independence without even a debate on the matter - just imagine what it'd be if people knew we're being royally screwed in this union. It's much higher than 2 years before the scots voted.
- england has a strong nationalist party, scotland has theirs - but we're going to left behind if we don't start thinking what in our interest. Stop our politicians denying us the right to better ourselves because it might impact england - we should be their competitor - strong economic links will obviously always be there, but in the future not to our disadvantage.
- we've not benefited from any of our natural resources, trillions taken in coal - coal communities desolate. Villages drowned to supply water to our neighbours and we end up having higher water bills, you could not make it up. Nationalising our water would bring in £££ billions - but again, anything that negatively impacts on england... if we don't wake up soon to this hoodwinkery then i guess we don't deserve to be a nation. The original people of these isles. Civic nationalism - everyone from any walk of life - any colour, any religion, working to better wales. That's what the scots have, that's what we should have.
Lets not become a minority in our own country.

But English people living in Wales are not immigrants. How much would you like it if you moved over the bridge only to be described as a migrant?

immigrant
noun
a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.


If english people are 'persons' and they come to live in wales, a foreign, different country, then i'd say that immigrant is fair. it's the context & language used by the media that's made immigrant a dirty word. like all those wonderful 'expats' living in spain that have become fluent in spanish & only serve spanish delicacies to the costa del sod your culture brigade.

Aren't most people in the valleys of English descent after the mass migration for work in the mines?

Probably. The majority of Welsh people seem to have English surnames.

Most welsh surnames had to be dropped to find work or have the slightest chance in life, as the welsh were excluded from all civic life. the irish & scots kept their Mc's - son of. The union with england made sure the surnames would diminish.
The Welsh patronymic system describes family trees in terms of the male line only and records the family association in the 'ap' or 'ab' prefix (ap is a contraction of the Welsh word mab, which means son). So, Rhys ap Dafydd means, in English, Rhys son of David.

Modern Welsh surnames such as Powell, Price and Prichard are the result of this contraction and a progressive tendency to Anglicise Welsh names: under the patronymic system they would have been ap Hywel; ap Rhys and ap Richard. The names Bowen and Bevan were derived in the same way.

But English people living in Wales are not immigrants. How much would you like it if you moved over the bridge only to be described as a migrant?

They might not be immigrants, but they move in to the north and west of Wales in their thousands annually bringing their own language and culture with them and totally ignoring our way of life, our language and culture.
Now when that happens in Leicester or Birmingham we call them immigrants...

And there's no Welsh people living in England?

But English people living in Wales are not immigrants. How much would you like it if you moved over the bridge only to be described as a migrant?

immigrant
noun
a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.


If english people are 'persons' and they come to live in wales, a foreign, different country, then i'd say that immigrant is fair. it's the context & language used by the media that's made immigrant a dirty word. like all those wonderful 'expats' living in spain that have become fluent in spanish & only serve spanish delicacies to the costa del sod your culture brigade.

English people like the welsh, Scots, northern Irish are uk citizens so they are not foreign are they?

But English people living in Wales are not immigrants. How much would you like it if you moved over the bridge only to be described as a migrant?

immigrant
noun
a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.


If english people are 'persons' and they come to live in wales, a foreign, different country, then i'd say that immigrant is fair. it's the context & language used by the media that's made immigrant a dirty word. like all those wonderful 'expats' living in spain that have become fluent in spanish & only serve spanish delicacies to the costa del sod your culture brigade.

English people like the welsh, Scots, northern Irish are uk citizens so they are not foreign are they?

I'm a citizen of europe,for now, but i'd still consider myself an immigrant if i went to live in another european country. this is what I'm saying, this mindset will always hold us back because we're too happy to appease everyone else expect ourselves. I'm not being derogatory about the people, they could be any nationality in the world- it's just when you have a country with 58million livin on the border to a country with 3 million and it seems like nobody stands up for us, well somewhere down the line, it needs to be discussed. You say there's the same amount of welsh living in england - well in 2014 it was 507,000 compared with 636,000, but that's a tiny percentage of englands population, but a substantial amount of the welsh one - an amount that has a greater impact on wales. welsh people in england are not a threat to the future of england. Then there's why there's 500,000 welsh people in england, i'd argue that a large amount of those people would work in wales if the opportunities were here. Take the latest denying of legal jurisdiction to wales by westminster - well the law society found that 8,000 new jobs are created and £379 million is added to the economy when the legal services sector grows by 1%.This model also shows that every 100 extra jobs in legal services supports a further 67 jobs in the wider economy.
How many of those would've stayed to work in the legal sector - if wales had its own supreme court & control of all prisons etc - therefore contributing greatly to the welsh economy and providing high wage/skilled jobs - this is just the norm in most countries, but as you see by how much its worth - westminster does not want this to happen. Instead of gaining from this, there's magistrates courts closing all over the place & being sold off to whoever sees they can make some money from our country. Manchester a city has more control over policing than wales - a country does.
One day, welsh kids will grow up laughing that we were controlled by another country. Imagine dublin being dictated to by london these days. Wouldn't it be great if cardiff was the club that the whole of wales looked to - like barcelona does in catalunya - to be the greatest export for welsh self rule.

I vote we build a wall

But English people living in Wales are not immigrants. How much would you like it if you moved over the bridge only to be described as a migrant?

They might not be immigrants, but they move in to the north and west of Wales in their thousands annually bringing their own language and culture with them and totally ignoring our way of life, our language and culture.
Now when that happens in Leicester or Birmingham we call them immigrants...

100% of the Welsh population speak English, 20% of the Welsh population speak Welsh.

The official languages of Wales are Welsh AND English. They are not "bringing" their own language and culture here, it's already here.

Aren't most people in the valleys of English descent after the mass migration for work in the mines?

Probably. The majority of Welsh people seem to have English surnames.

Most welsh surnames had to be dropped to find work or have the slightest chance in life, as the welsh were excluded from all civic life. the irish & scots kept their Mc's - son of. The union with england made sure the surnames would diminish.
The Welsh patronymic system describes family trees in terms of the male line only and records the family association in the 'ap' or 'ab' prefix (ap is a contraction of the Welsh word mab, which means son). So, Rhys ap Dafydd means, in English, Rhys son of David.

Modern Welsh surnames such as Powell, Price and Prichard are the result of this contraction and a progressive tendency to Anglicise Welsh names: under the patronymic system they would have been ap Hywel; ap Rhys and ap Richard. The names Bowen and Bevan were derived in the same way.

English uses the patronymic prefix "Fitz" and I think Irish Gaelic uses "O'". Many other cultures and languages employ similar. For example, Russian e.g. uses "vic", Georgian "adze/idze", etc.

But English people living in Wales are not immigrants. How much would you like it if you moved over the bridge only to be described as a migrant?

They might not be immigrants, but they move in to the north and west of Wales in their thousands annually bringing their own language and culture with them and totally ignoring our way of life, our language and culture.
Now when that happens in Leicester or Birmingham we call them immigrants...

100% of the Welsh population speak English, 20% of the Welsh population speak Welsh.

The official languages of Wales are Welsh AND English. They are not "bringing" their own language and culture here, it's already here.

Well 100% is a lie. You don't know older people on the west coast I take it. There are areas where welsh is 70% first language, so it's true to say that they bring their own language & culture into these areas.

I doubt there are more than 100 monoglot Welsh speakers left on the Welsh coast? Some life they must have lead. If you rounded the figures up it would be 100%, that is not a lie. 70% of those welsh first language speakers will also be able to speak English. Language is a means of communication, nothing else. If the English incomers can communicate with the rest of us here in Wales then they are integrating.

We have two official languages here in Wales, English and Welsh. Why should English people bother to learn Welsh when they can converse in English (apart from a few old biddies marooned in Tregaron).

I vote we build a wall

. ....you might be onto something ...and make the English pay for it (a la Donald Trump with the Mexicans!!!

I vote we build a wall

. ....you might be onto something ...and make the English pay for it (a la Donald Trump with the Mexicans!!!

Who'd build it, the Poles?

I vote we build a wall

. ....you might be onto something ...and make the English pay for it (a la Donald Trump with the Mexicans!!!

Who'd build it, the Poles?

We have plenty of people in Wales looking for work... "so they say"

I vote we build a wall

I doubt there are more than 100 monoglot Welsh speakers left on the Welsh coast? Some life they must have lead. If you rounded the figures up it would be 100%, that is not a lie. 70% of those welsh first language speakers will also be able to speak English. Language is a means of communication, nothing else. If the English incomers can communicate with the rest of us here in Wales then they are integrating.

We have two official languages here in Wales, English and Welsh. Why should English people bother to learn Welsh when they can converse in English (apart from a few old biddies marooned in Tregaron).

When you learn a language you open a window on a new world, new cultures and traditions. Speaking one, English or Welsh gives you one view of the world and possibly a narrow one as you say. If you only speak Welsh you can't enjoy Shakespeare or Wordsworth and if you only speak English in Wales you're missing out on centuries of poets, playwrights, songs going back to the 6th century.
When you say 'language is a means of communicating nothing else' I disagree, I enjoy the cultures and literature of both England and Wales and without them the world would be a poorer place. Moving into a country or area of a country and ignoring languages and culture and insisting on their own is colonialism and unfortunately our 'friends' from over the border have a history of this!

I doubt there are more than 100 monoglot Welsh speakers left on the Welsh coast? Some life they must have lead. If you rounded the figures up it would be 100%, that is not a lie. 70% of those welsh first language speakers will also be able to speak English. Language is a means of communication, nothing else. If the English incomers can communicate with the rest of us here in Wales then they are integrating.

We have two official languages here in Wales, English and Welsh. Why should English people bother to learn Welsh when they can converse in English (apart from a few old biddies marooned in Tregaron).

It’s still 1948 and the world is flat.
‘Language is a means for communication, nothing else’. I take it you didn’t go to school, nobody is born with that kind of stupidity.
So when the Russians eventually take us over with ease, come back here and tell me why the Russians should learn English when overtime a majority in wales speaks Russian. Old Barbara in the bakery can’t quite express herself in the same way in Russian and you’re struggling to even get your words out. Language shapes the way we think and express ourselves – language has a profound effect on the way you see the world, people who speak a different language think differently. So would you be happy to ditch English, because ‘everyone one speaks russian?’ Would you f***! Hopefully you’ll never have to go through something like that, but show some more solidarity with your fellow natives that have.
I can imagine those people have led quite fulfilling lives – nestled in the most glorious part of these isles speaking the language that is the soil of Britain – they must be thinking ‘when did they start speaking russian in the siop?’.

I doubt there are more than 100 monoglot Welsh speakers left on the Welsh coast? Some life they must have lead. If you rounded the figures up it would be 100%, that is not a lie. 70% of those welsh first language speakers will also be able to speak English. Language is a means of communication, nothing else. If the English incomers can communicate with the rest of us here in Wales then they are integrating.

We have two official languages here in Wales, English and Welsh. Why should English people bother to learn Welsh when they can converse in English (apart from a few old biddies marooned in Tregaron).

When you learn a language you open a window on a new world, new cultures and traditions. Speaking one, English or Welsh gives you one view of the world and possibly a narrow one as you say. If you only speak Welsh you can't enjoy Shakespeare or Wordsworth and if you only speak English in Wales you're missing out on centuries of poets, playwrights, songs going back to the 6th century.
When you say 'language is a means of communicating nothing else' I disagree, I enjoy the cultures and literature of both England and Wales and without them the world would be a poorer place. Moving into a country or area of a country and ignoring languages and culture and insisting on their own is colonialism and unfortunately our 'friends' from over the border have a history of this!

Numbskull number one:

I am just weeping at the thought of not immersing myself in the poetry and literature of languages such as Slovenian and Bengali, how will I cope. I am aware of Welsh poetry, I love Dylan Thomas for instance, a Welshman who wrote about Wales in English. For me language is just a means of communication, I see no benefit in learning Welsh, I don't need it to further my career and everyone I want to speak to speaks English. The company I work for have significant contracts in Spain and German, if I am to learn a language it would be Spanish or German. I am also aware that in the not so distant future manadarin skills are going to be incredibly useful for our young people.

I disagree with you that English people (in the present day, not in history) come here and "colonise" us by not speaking our language. When they get here they see everyone is speaking English and 80% of the locals don't even speak Welsh, why should they bother? They aren't insisting anything, as I keep coming back to THERE ARE TWO OFFICIAL LANGUAGES IN WALES.

By the way, what is Welsh culture? Language aside? What are these English people moving here ignoring exactly?

I doubt there are more than 100 monoglot Welsh speakers left on the Welsh coast? Some life they must have lead. If you rounded the figures up it would be 100%, that is not a lie. 70% of those welsh first language speakers will also be able to speak English. Language is a means of communication, nothing else. If the English incomers can communicate with the rest of us here in Wales then they are integrating.

We have two official languages here in Wales, English and Welsh. Why should English people bother to learn Welsh when they can converse in English (apart from a few old biddies marooned in Tregaron).

It’s still 1948 and the world is flat.
‘Language is a means for communication, nothing else’. I take it you didn’t go to school, nobody is born with that kind of stupidity.
So when the Russians eventually take us over with ease, come back here and tell me why the Russians should learn English when overtime a majority in wales speaks Russian. Old Barbara in the bakery can’t quite express herself in the same way in Russian and you’re struggling to even get your words out. Language shapes the way we think and express ourselves – language has a profound effect on the way you see the world, people who speak a different language think differently. So would you be happy to ditch English, because ‘everyone one speaks russian?’ Would you f***! Hopefully you’ll never have to go through something like that, but show some more solidarity with your fellow natives that have.
I can imagine those people have led quite fulfilling lives – nestled in the most glorious part of these isles speaking the language that is the soil of Britain – they must be thinking ‘when did they start speaking russian in the siop?’.

Numbskull number two:

I went to school, had a bilingual education in English and Welsh. I haven't used Welsh once since I left those school gates, it looks great on the CV but I have never used it in the workplace nor have I ever been asked to. My world view has not been widened by speaking Welsh because the country I live in is a bilingual country where everything is, and should be, through the medium of two languages. What I can see in Welsh can also be seen in English.

I am not having a go at the older people who don't speak English, like you said I wouldn't bother to learn Russian if they took over unless I had to for my job. If I was retired and all my friends spoke English then I wouldn't need to learn Russian would I? But honestly I highly doubt there is anyone under the age of 80 who is a monoglot Welsh speaker. Also you are denigrating people in this country for only speaking one language then you go on to say the monoglot Welsh speakers have "led quite fulfilling lives", which is it?

Some question to you, language aside, what Welsh traditions are these English people ignoring?

Good God - there is a Welsh version of the Daily Mail after all.
What will tomorrow's headline be? - photos of only English people driving whilst on their mobile phones.
FFS

I doubt there are more than 100 monoglot Welsh speakers left on the Welsh coast? Some life they must have lead. If you rounded the figures up it would be 100%, that is not a lie. 70% of those welsh first language speakers will also be able to speak English. Language is a means of communication, nothing else. If the English incomers can communicate with the rest of us here in Wales then they are integrating.

We have two official languages here in Wales, English and Welsh. Why should English people bother to learn Welsh when they can converse in English (apart from a few old biddies marooned in Tregaron).

It’s still 1948 and the world is flat.
‘Language is a means for communication, nothing else’. I take it you didn’t go to school, nobody is born with that kind of stupidity.
So when the Russians eventually take us over with ease, come back here and tell me why the Russians should learn English when overtime a majority in wales speaks Russian. Old Barbara in the bakery can’t quite express herself in the same way in Russian and you’re struggling to even get your words out. Language shapes the way we think and express ourselves – language has a profound effect on the way you see the world, people who speak a different language think differently. So would you be happy to ditch English, because ‘everyone one speaks russian?’ Would you f***! Hopefully you’ll never have to go through something like that, but show some more solidarity with your fellow natives that have.
I can imagine those people have led quite fulfilling lives – nestled in the most glorious part of these isles speaking the language that is the soil of Britain – they must be thinking ‘when did they start speaking russian in the siop?’.

Numbskull number two:

I went to school, had a bilingual education in English and Welsh. I haven't used Welsh once since I left those school gates, it looks great on the CV but I have never used it in the workplace nor have I ever been asked to. My world view has not been widened by speaking Welsh because the country I live in is a bilingual country where everything is, and should be, through the medium of two languages. What I can see in Welsh can also be seen in English.

I am not having a go at the older people who don't speak English, like you said I wouldn't bother to learn Russian if they took over unless I had to for my job. If I was retired and all my friends spoke English then I wouldn't need to learn Russian would I? But honestly I highly doubt there is anyone under the age of 80 who is a monoglot Welsh speaker. Also you are denigrating people in this country for only speaking one language then you go on to say the monoglot Welsh speakers have "led quite fulfilling lives", which is it?

Some question to you, language aside, what Welsh traditions are these English people ignoring?

El bore is off again