" REAL PASSION IS WHAT MATTERS/ NOT A FAKE ATMOSPHERE? "

It's quite strange, I didnt see one Premier League game but did all the cracking games, and they were cracking in the 80s when the atmosphere was electric from the moment you started walking close to the ground, once inside and walking onto the bob bank the feeling of Cardiff City was unreal, it really was electric. Trips in the Welsh Cup to Hereford, Newport, Swansea, Wrexham, Hednesford Town were fantastic, Welsh cup games were great.

Cambridge away, 12 of us, Leyton Orient on the train, horrible trips to Stoke City in the early 90s.

I went to one game last year and it just didnt feel right, couldn't put my finger on it, could we put Ninian Park back?

When all those great togetherness days were in full swing, football outside us was catching up with a changing society.

During those days i would go down to the national stadium to watch 5 nation games. In those day in the south lower or east terrace you'd get in for a reasonable sum and hopefully miss being pissed on and have a great laugh and a few songs......

Now look at what a day at the millennium stadium consists of, dafts bints in daffodil hat, waving into the cameras and the cost of a nuclear defence programme.

Ninian park was one of the last bastions of that era. IMO we "advanced" nearly 2 decades in two years after the move to the CCS and a lot of the old school didn't like what we have become.....The same as everyone else.

Would i have taken my 10 year old daughter to NP, I doubt it. If i did, it would have been the grandstand and would she have had a discount like we get in the CCS, I doubt that as well.

The CCS needs to get its identity, if its gimmicks then so be it.

I'm fed up with reading this and that which has no relevance with regard to the atmosphere such as who went to Halifax in 1980 something. That's gone and so to has Ninian Park. That is a shame but that's life in the 21st Century.

Instead of moaning and finding a scapegoats to blame for our pathetic support over the last few seasons, how about taking responsibility and doing something?

Swapping ends is just another in a long line of excuses which are designed to deflect the fact that the problem and solution is US the fans. Lets get off our collective arses and frigging well get something done.

Great post - City fans must get that passion back ASAP, Football is nothing without fans and there's nothing better than a brilliant atmosphere

When all those great togetherness days were in full swing, football outside us was catching up with a changing society.

During those days i would go down to the national stadium to watch 5 nation games. In those day in the south lower or east terrace you'd get in for a reasonable sum and hopefully miss being pissed on and have a great laugh and a few songs......

Now look at what a day at the millennium stadium consists of, dafts bints in daffodil hat, waving into the cameras and the cost of a nuclear defence programme.

Ninian park was one of the last bastions of that era. IMO we "advanced" nearly 2 decades in two years after the move to the CCS and a lot of the old school didn't like what we have become.....The same as everyone else.

Would i have taken my 10 year old daughter to NP, I doubt it. If i did, it would have been the grandstand and would she have had a discount like we get in the CCS, I doubt that as well.

The CCS needs to get its identity, if its gimmicks then so be it.

Outside of NP, I guess you are right that football was changing and Cardiff was one of the last clubs to 'advance' so to speak. I am wondering if the clubs that kept the traditional football stadiums will benefit in the long run, those stadiums are a link to the past.

very interesting read I agree that banners should be installed at the games as let's face it, we got the room

" REAL PASSION IS WHAT MATTERS/ NOT A FAKE ATMOSPHERE? "

My strong strong beliefs

You can put your flags up,your drums banging,your cheer leaders on and a juke box jury, but you will never beat banter and songs coming from your heart,that's for me the only way to get our ground rocking and that's my belief after visiting over 360 odd grounds and more than 2,000 City games home and away.

Why not swop ends for one season only? Try it out,we have 33,000 seats, if you don't try,you will never know?


Talk to players like Jason Perry, Andy Legg,Kav, Phil Dwyer etc etc they will tell you the same,how passionate City fans use to be,without all this franchise stuff.

Our club needs to realise this

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions

" REAL PASSION COMES FROM THE HEART AND THE LOVE FROM YOUR CLUB "

It will never be the same Annis, when we first started going there were virtually no women and very few children, it's a different world theses days.

You could definately improve it though, especially with a change of ends ........

Mark, your prob right,it will never be as good as it was,but at least if they tried I honestly believe it would improve dramatically

" REAL PASSION IS WHAT MATTERS/ NOT A FAKE ATMOSPHERE? "

My strong strong beliefs

You can put your flags up,your drums banging,your cheer leaders on and a juke box jury, but you will never beat banter and songs coming from your heart,that's for me the only way to get our ground rocking and that's my belief after visiting over 360 odd grounds and more than 2,000 City games home and away.

Why not swop ends for one season only? Try it out,we have 33,000 seats, if you don't try,you will never know?


Talk to players like Jason Perry, Andy Legg,Kav, Phil Dwyer etc etc they will tell you the same,how passionate City fans use to be,without all this franchise stuff.

Our club needs to realise this

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions

" REAL PASSION COMES FROM THE HEART AND THE LOVE FROM YOUR CLUB "

Took the words right out of my mouth, comes from within it's very very simple!

The passion you talk about for me can only be there when you have pride in your team and were over the years I would defend my football club to the end know i find it impossible I just hope that something around the club on or off the field will rekindle my love for all things CCFC but at this time it's just not happening and I bet there are plenty like me.

" REAL PASSION IS WHAT MATTERS/ NOT A FAKE ATMOSPHERE? "

My strong strong beliefs

You can put your flags up,your drums banging,your cheer leaders on and a juke box jury, but you will never beat banter and songs coming from your heart,that's for me the only way to get our ground rocking and that's my belief after visiting over 360 odd grounds and more than 2,000 City games home and away.

Why not swop ends for one season only? Try it out,we have 33,000 seats, if you don't try,you will never know?


Talk to players like Jason Perry, Andy Legg,Kav, Phil Dwyer etc etc they will tell you the same,how passionate City fans use to be,without all this franchise stuff.

Our club needs to realise this

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions

" REAL PASSION COMES FROM THE HEART AND THE LOVE FROM YOUR CLUB "

Took the words right out of my mouth, comes from within it's very very simple!

That's how I feel and I've seen you at away matches with nothing but passion and vocal,you feel it and I rember when we first left Ninian Park, I gave the club 800 odd names on a sheet from Section A upper and lower of the Grandstand who wanted to all sit together,we were told a big NO. Yet we had not had an arrest in that section for years.

" REAL PASSION IS WHAT MATTERS/ NOT A FAKE ATMOSPHERE? "

My strong strong beliefs

You can put your flags up,your drums banging,your cheer leaders on and a juke box jury, but you will never beat banter and songs coming from your heart,that's for me the only way to get our ground rocking and that's my belief after visiting over 360 odd grounds and more than 2,000 City games home and away.

Why not swop ends for one season only? Try it out,we have 33,000 seats, if you don't try,you will never know?


Talk to players like Jason Perry, Andy Legg,Kav, Phil Dwyer etc etc they will tell you the same,how passionate City fans use to be,without all this franchise stuff.

Our club needs to realise this

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions

" REAL PASSION COMES FROM THE HEART AND THE LOVE FROM YOUR CLUB "

Took the words right out of my mouth, comes from within it's very very simple!

That's how I feel and I've seen you at away matches with nothing but passion and vocal,you feel it and I rember when we first left Ninian Park, I gave the club 800 odd names on a sheet from Section A upper and lower of the Grandstand who wanted to all sit together,we were told a big NO. Yet we had not had an arrest in that section for years.

It's a shame people can't organise to sit together, my biggest issue with all this is everybody moaning about it on their keyboards I have seen them in games the faces and quiet as mice! If they no longer have the passion or the flame has gone out I can understand that, and we're not all shouting from the roof tops all of the time, I also understand and have posted before that it's always the younger generation to lead by example and the rest will follow maybe not all the time but during periods in a game! For me the flame is burning as much this season as ever, the passion is there without a doubt

" REAL PASSION IS WHAT MATTERS/ NOT A FAKE ATMOSPHERE? "

My strong strong beliefs

You can put your flags up,your drums banging,your cheer leaders on and a juke box jury, but you will never beat banter and songs coming from your heart,that's for me the only way to get our ground rocking and that's my belief after visiting over 360 odd grounds and more than 2,000 City games home and away.

Why not swop ends for one season only? Try it out,we have 33,000 seats, if you don't try,you will never know?


Talk to players like Jason Perry, Andy Legg,Kav, Phil Dwyer etc etc they will tell you the same,how passionate City fans use to be,without all this franchise stuff.

Our club needs to realise this

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions

" REAL PASSION COMES FROM THE HEART AND THE LOVE FROM YOUR CLUB "

Took the words right out of my mouth, comes from within it's very very simple!

That's how I feel and I've seen you at away matches with nothing but passion and vocal,you feel it and I rember when we first left Ninian Park, I gave the club 800 odd names on a sheet from Section A upper and lower of the Grandstand who wanted to all sit together,we were told a big NO. Yet we had not had an arrest in that section for years.

It's a shame people can't organise to sit together, my biggest issue with all this is everybody moaning about it on their keyboards I have seen them in games the faces and quiet as mice! If they no longer have the passion or the flame has gone out I can understand that, and we're not all shouting from the roof tops all of the time, I also understand and have posted before that it's always the younger generation to lead by example and the rest will follow maybe not all the time but during periods in a game! For me the flame is burning as much this season as ever, the passion is there without a doubt

At away games as we have done for many a year,we still show that passion

" REAL PASSION IS WHAT MATTERS/ NOT A FAKE ATMOSPHERE? "

My strong strong beliefs

You can put your flags up,your drums banging,your cheer leaders on and a juke box jury, but you will never beat banter and songs coming from your heart,that's for me the only way to get our ground rocking and that's my belief after visiting over 360 odd grounds and more than 2,000 City games home and away.

Why not swop ends for one season only? Try it out,we have 33,000 seats, if you don't try,you will never know?


Talk to players like Jason Perry, Andy Legg,Kav, Phil Dwyer etc etc they will tell you the same,how passionate City fans use to be,without all this franchise stuff.

Our club needs to realise this

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions

" REAL PASSION COMES FROM THE HEART AND THE LOVE FROM YOUR CLUB "

Took the words right out of my mouth, comes from within it's very very simple!

That's how I feel and I've seen you at away matches with nothing but passion and vocal,you feel it and I rember when we first left Ninian Park, I gave the club 800 odd names on a sheet from Section A upper and lower of the Grandstand who wanted to all sit together,we were told a big NO. Yet we had not had an arrest in that section for years.

It's a shame people can't organise to sit together, my biggest issue with all this is everybody moaning about it on their keyboards I have seen them in games the faces and quiet as mice! If they no longer have the passion or the flame has gone out I can understand that, and we're not all shouting from the roof tops all of the time, I also understand and have posted before that it's always the younger generation to lead by example and the rest will follow maybe not all the time but during periods in a game! For me the flame is burning as much this season as ever, the passion is there without a doubt

At away games as we have done for many a year,we still show that passion

Very very true, some go for the social side some for the football! I love both and played for over 25years so for me it's catch up time

I'm fed up with reading this and that which has no relevance with regard to the atmosphere such as who went to Halifax in 1980 something. That's gone and so to has Ninian Park. That is a shame but that's life in the 21st Century.

Instead of moaning and finding a scapegoats to blame for our pathetic support over the last few seasons, how about taking responsibility and doing something?

Swapping ends is just another in a long line of excuses which are designed to deflect the fact that the problem and solution is US the fans. Lets get off our collective arses and frigging well get something done.

I dont know what your fed up about, IT ISNT A MOAN IT WAS JUST ADDING TO THE THREAD, my post was highlighting a fact that the passion and atmosphere was great back then so why is it not like that know? It has every relevance to the atmosphere, yes your right times change and things move on, but there were no gimmicks such as clappers, bands then, is this to replace fans noise with plastic noise. Ultras, great idea....when we have crowds of 60k plus!

You correctly say it is the fans that make the atmosphere and I think the general feeling is one of sombreness in the ground, too worried to stand up etc. If CCFC were in the Premier League it would be full and this discussion would not be happening...Whats the answer, I have not got a clue

A Ninian Park with 4k in was louder than CCS with 13k in...FACT

The thread by Annis is spot on 100% correct, and oh yes I have done the Hartlepool, Halifax and Darlington etc away games in my time, several times over. And our away day atmosphere created by the few was always brilliant

I agree with Annis (and that doesn`t happen very often ) that this creation of an artificial , U.S. style, manufactured atmosphere is no substitute for genuine passion of fans. Well meaning attempts by those trying to organise it , and doing something other than just moaning about the lack of atmosphere is to be admired and applauded but it is false and seems rather forced rather than natural.

What I disagree with him on (there , I knew it wouldn`t last ) is this persistent call by a few to move ends to have a singing section next to away fans - I just don`t get it. Perhaps the best home fan atmosphere throughout Europe is in the German Bundesliga where fans congregate to generate tremendous noise and support for their team at the opposite end to away fans. They don`t seem to feel the need to "eyeball" away fans in order to be able to make such noise - they focus more on supporting their own team than worrying about what away fans are doing (and it is the same in Spain, Italy etc) .
Getting far more people into the ground in the first place is , in my view , the top priority followed by getting as many of those as wish to together in a singing session in the Canton Stand.

The passion you talk about for me can only be there when you have pride in your team and were over the years I would defend my football club to the end know i find it impossible I just hope that something around the club on or off the field will rekindle my love for all things CCFC but at this time it's just not happening and I bet there are plenty like me.

Pride in your team and club are what gives you the passion your right

The thread by Annis is spot on 100% correct, and oh yes I have done the Hartlepool, Halifax and Darlington etc away games in my time, several times over. And our away day atmosphere created by the few was always brilliant

Yes Simon and I rem you at all of them

I agree with Annis (and that doesn`t happen very often ) that this creation of an artificial , U.S. style, manufactured atmosphere is no substitute for genuine passion of fans. Well meaning attempts by those trying to organise it , and doing something other than just moaning about the lack of atmosphere is to be admired and applauded but it is false and seems rather forced rather than natural.

What I disagree with him on (there , I knew it wouldn`t last ) is this persistent call by a few to move ends to have a singing section next to away fans - I just don`t get it. Perhaps the best home fan atmosphere throughout Europe is in the German Bundesliga where fans congregate to generate tremendous noise and support for their team at the opposite end to away fans. They don`t seem to feel the need to "eyeball" away fans in order to be able to make such noise - they focus more on supporting their own team than worrying about what away fans are doing (and it is the same in Spain, Italy etc) .
Getting far more people into the ground in the first place is , in my view , the top priority followed by getting as many of those as wish to together in a singing session in the Canton Stand.

Keith agrees with me


Keith, as to the second part it's not just a few it's thousands. On this I can see neither of us will ever agree,so we will have to just beg to differ.
Let's hope then the new ideas work,atmosphere improves every week and then crowds will also increase Hmmmm?

FB

Neil Muxworthy Fully agree. I've said loads of times, 10-14k is our attendance figures in this division. History does not lie. Over zealous stewarding and seats doesn't help. I see 'safe standing' as a possible solution. Providing the ends are swapped, but I can't see it ever happening.

I agree with Annis (and that doesn`t happen very often ) that this creation of an artificial , U.S. style, manufactured atmosphere is no substitute for genuine passion of fans. Well meaning attempts by those trying to organise it , and doing something other than just moaning about the lack of atmosphere is to be admired and applauded but it is false and seems rather forced rather than natural.

What I disagree with him on (there , I knew it wouldn`t last ) is this persistent call by a few to move ends to have a singing section next to away fans - I just don`t get it. Perhaps the best home fan atmosphere throughout Europe is in the German Bundesliga where fans congregate to generate tremendous noise and support for their team at the opposite end to away fans. They don`t seem to feel the need to "eyeball" away fans in order to be able to make such noise - they focus more on supporting their own team than worrying about what away fans are doing (and it is the same in Spain, Italy etc) .
Getting far more people into the ground in the first place is , in my view , the top priority followed by getting as many of those as wish to together in a singing session in the Canton Stand.

Keith agrees with me


Keith, as to the second part it's not just a few it's thousands. On this I can see neither of us will ever agree,so we will have to just beg to differ.
Let's hope then the new ideas work,atmosphere improves every week and then crowds will also increase Hmmmm?

But there is no evidence that there is "thousands" who want to swap ends is there? It is just a small number of people expressing a view on a message board. Nothing wrong at all with having such an opinion , it`s just that numbers wise it is far less than the many hundreds currently sitting in the Family Stand who answered an official survey and clearly stated that they wished to remain sitting at that end of the ground with their families. Why should the wishes of a relatively small number of people override the wishes of so many?.

Why do you think that the models that are so successful in Germany , Spain , Italy etc. where home fans at the opposite end of the stadium from away fans generate so much noise and support for their team , cannot work at CCFC ? Not being able to "eyeball" opposition fans doesn`t seem to have caused them a problem. Is it perhaps the availability of safe standing areas?

I agree with Annis (and that doesn`t happen very often ) that this creation of an artificial , U.S. style, manufactured atmosphere is no substitute for genuine passion of fans. Well meaning attempts by those trying to organise it , and doing something other than just moaning about the lack of atmosphere is to be admired and applauded but it is false and seems rather forced rather than natural.

What I disagree with him on (there , I knew it wouldn`t last ) is this persistent call by a few to move ends to have a singing section next to away fans - I just don`t get it. Perhaps the best home fan atmosphere throughout Europe is in the German Bundesliga where fans congregate to generate tremendous noise and support for their team at the opposite end to away fans. They don`t seem to feel the need to "eyeball" away fans in order to be able to make such noise - they focus more on supporting their own team than worrying about what away fans are doing (and it is the same in Spain, Italy etc) .
Getting far more people into the ground in the first place is , in my view , the top priority followed by getting as many of those as wish to together in a singing session in the Canton Stand.

Keith agrees with me


Keith, as to the second part it's not just a few it's thousands. On this I can see neither of us will ever agree,so we will have to just beg to differ.
Let's hope then the new ideas work,atmosphere improves every week and then crowds will also increase Hmmmm?

But there is no evidence that there is "thousands" who want to swap ends is there? It is just a small number of people expressing a view on a message board. Nothing wrong at all with having such an opinion , it`s just that numbers wise it is far less than the many hundreds currently sitting in the Family Stand who answered an official survey and clearly stated that they wished to remain sitting at that end of the ground with their families. Why should the wishes of a relatively small number of people override the wishes of so many?.

Why do you think that the models that are so successful in Germany , Spain , Italy etc. where home fans at the opposite end of the stadium from away fans generate so much noise and support for their team , cannot work at CCFC ? Not being able to "eyeball" opposition fans doesn`t seem to have caused them a problem. Is it perhaps the availability of safe standing areas?

Afternoon Keith

Abroad they get amazing atmosphere for the big derby games, the rest of the time,their crowds are mostly subdued.
I've been all over the world watching football
And nothing beats banter and fans not to far away from each so they can banter,your right they don't need to see each other's eye balls,which are Wayne Nashs words

It would not hurt to try it,if the latest ideas fail

Annis

Why not do a petition on here and then down the stadium show the strong feeling regarding swapping ends then hand to the club

I agree with Annis (and that doesn`t happen very often ) that this creation of an artificial , U.S. style, manufactured atmosphere is no substitute for genuine passion of fans. Well meaning attempts by those trying to organise it , and doing something other than just moaning about the lack of atmosphere is to be admired and applauded but it is false and seems rather forced rather than natural.

What I disagree with him on (there , I knew it wouldn`t last ) is this persistent call by a few to move ends to have a singing section next to away fans - I just don`t get it. Perhaps the best home fan atmosphere throughout Europe is in the German Bundesliga where fans congregate to generate tremendous noise and support for their team at the opposite end to away fans. They don`t seem to feel the need to "eyeball" away fans in order to be able to make such noise - they focus more on supporting their own team than worrying about what away fans are doing (and it is the same in Spain, Italy etc) .
Getting far more people into the ground in the first place is , in my view , the top priority followed by getting as many of those as wish to together in a singing session in the Canton Stand.

Keith agrees with me


Keith, as to the second part it's not just a few it's thousands. On this I can see neither of us will ever agree,so we will have to just beg to differ.
Let's hope then the new ideas work,atmosphere improves every week and then crowds will also increase Hmmmm?

But there is no evidence that there is "thousands" who want to swap ends is there? It is just a small number of people expressing a view on a message board. Nothing wrong at all with having such an opinion , it`s just that numbers wise it is far less than the many hundreds currently sitting in the Family Stand who answered an official survey and clearly stated that they wished to remain sitting at that end of the ground with their families. Why should the wishes of a relatively small number of people override the wishes of so many?.

Why do you think that the models that are so successful in Germany , Spain , Italy etc. where home fans at the opposite end of the stadium from away fans generate so much noise and support for their team , cannot work at CCFC ? Not being able to "eyeball" opposition fans doesn`t seem to have caused them a problem. Is it perhaps the availability of safe standing areas?

Afternoon Keith

Abroad they get amazing atmosphere for the big derby games, the rest of the time,their crowds are mostly subdued.
I've been all over the world watching football
And nothing beats banter and fans not to far away from each so they can banter,your right they don't need to see each other's eye balls,which are Wayne Nashs words

It would not hurt to try it,if the latest ideas fail

I have been to many club games abroad as well , including many at the likes of Real Madrid , Barcelona and Malaga in Spain (lots of ex-pats go to their games so an interesting mix of UK teams that they used to support). Also quite a few at places like Hertha Berlin and AC Milan. Other than one game at the Camp Nou ,and a big local rivalry game between Hertha and Hamburg, none of them were derby games yet the atmosphere was loud and proud from the home fans . The home fans were nowhere near the away fans , yet didn`t stop the creation of atmosphere. Indeed , some of the loudest support in a fairly small stadium was in the old Wisla Krakow ground (a group of us were there on the day City beat Middlesbrough away in our run to the F.A.Cup Final which caused more than a few odd looks from the local Poles when we reacted to the news of our goals on our mobiles!) - there were honestly no more than 20 away fans (at the opposite end of the stadium) but didn`t stop continuous singing and chanting from the home fans.

I hope the current ideas work. I don`t actually believe in the way they are artificial , but I want to see the atmosphere improve so if they work , then the fact that I don`t particularly like them is irrelevant. If we were about to move to a new stadium I would also agree with giving the fan positioning you suggest a try on the same basis. But , in my view , to cause all the upheaval and disruption to existing fans (against their stated wishes)at a big financial cost at this stage is not an acceptable option. As Tim Wegener points out in one of his posts , the (lack of) arrests figures since we moved to the new stadium and have used the current fans` layout is very impressive so why take even the slightest risk of that changing? If it`s not broke , don`t try and fix it.

I will be interested to see how the flag , drum , band , megaphones or whatever else is put in place for tomorrow`s game works out as , despite not renewing my season ticket for the first time in in 54 seasons (you youngsters have only been watching for a short period ) I have managed to attend all the home games so far - sometimes I have genuinely felt like not making the effort - even though I would have preferred existing fans` flags from supporters groups all over to be used rather than getting a big new one that most supporters had no say in designing .

Keith

I agree with Annis (and that doesn`t happen very often ) that this creation of an artificial , U.S. style, manufactured atmosphere is no substitute for genuine passion of fans. Well meaning attempts by those trying to organise it , and doing something other than just moaning about the lack of atmosphere is to be admired and applauded but it is false and seems rather forced rather than natural.

What I disagree with him on (there , I knew it wouldn`t last ) is this persistent call by a few to move ends to have a singing section next to away fans - I just don`t get it. Perhaps the best home fan atmosphere throughout Europe is in the German Bundesliga where fans congregate to generate tremendous noise and support for their team at the opposite end to away fans. They don`t seem to feel the need to "eyeball" away fans in order to be able to make such noise - they focus more on supporting their own team than worrying about what away fans are doing (and it is the same in Spain, Italy etc) .
Getting far more people into the ground in the first place is , in my view , the top priority followed by getting as many of those as wish to together in a singing session in the Canton Stand.

Keith agrees with me



Keith, as to the second part it's not just a few it's thousands. On this I can see neither of us will ever agree,so we will have to just beg to differ.
Let's hope then the new ideas work,atmosphere improves every week and then crowds will also increase Hmmmm?

But there is no evidence that there is "thousands" who want to swap ends is there? It is just a small number of people expressing a view on a message board. Nothing wrong at all with having such an opinion , it`s just that numbers wise it is far less than the many hundreds currently sitting in the Family Stand who answered an official survey and clearly stated that they wished to remain sitting at that end of the ground with their families. Why should the wishes of a relatively small number of people override the wishes of so many?.

Why do you think that the models that are so successful in Germany , Spain , Italy etc. where home fans at the opposite end of the stadium from away fans generate so much noise and support for their team , cannot work at CCFC ? Not being able to "eyeball" opposition fans doesn`t seem to have caused them a problem. Is it perhaps the availability of safe standing areas?

Afternoon Keith

Abroad they get amazing atmosphere for the big derby games, the rest of the time,their crowds are mostly subdued.
I've been all over the world watching football
And nothing beats banter and fans not to far away from each so they can banter,your right they don't need to see each other's eye balls,which are Wayne Nashs words

It would not hurt to try it,if the latest ideas fail

I have been to many club games abroad as well , including many at the likes of Real Madrid , Barcelona and Malaga in Spain (lots of ex-pats go to their games so an interesting mix of UK teams that they used to support). Also quite a few at places like Hertha Berlin and AC Milan. Other than one game at the Camp Nou ,and a big local rivalry game between Hertha and Hamburg, none of them were derby games yet the atmosphere was loud and proud from the home fans . The home fans were nowhere near the away fans , yet didn`t stop the creation of atmosphere. Indeed , some of the loudest support in a fairly small stadium was in the old Wisla Krakow ground (a group of us were there on the day City beat Middlesbrough away in our run to the F.A.Cup Final which caused more than a few odd looks from the local Poles when we reacted to the news of our goals on our mobiles!) - there were honestly no more than 20 away fans (at the opposite end of the stadium) but didn`t stop continuous singing and chanting from the home fans.

I hope the current ideas work. I don`t actually believe in the way they are artificial , but I want to see the atmosphere improve so if they work , then the fact that I don`t particularly like them is irrelevant. If we were about to move to a new stadium I would also agree with giving the fan positioning you suggest a try on the same basis. But , in my view , to cause all the upheaval and disruption to existing fans (against their stated wishes)at a big financial cost at this stage is not an acceptable option. As Tim Wegener points out in one of his posts , the (lack of) arrests figures since we moved to the new stadium and have used the current fans` layout is very impressive so why take even the slightest risk of that changing? If it`s not broke , don`t try and fix it.

I will be interested to see how the flag , drum , band , megaphones or whatever else is put in place for tomorrow`s game works out as , despite not renewing my season ticket for the first time in in 54 seasons (you youngsters have only been watching for a short period ) I have managed to attend all the home games so far - sometimes I have genuinely felt like not making the effort - even though I would have preferred existing fans` flags from supporters groups all over to be used rather than getting a big new one that most supporters had no say in designing .

Keith

Keith, I told you we would never agree

But we both have the club and fans at heart

I hope their ideas work,but I have big reservations.

Annis

Why not do a petition on here and then down the stadium show the strong feeling regarding swapping ends then hand to the club

I gave The Club a list of 800 season ticket holders who wanted to sit together in a stand like that,guess what they lost it
I argued with Nash about it for months.
It's a 100% No go,while Nash remains stadium manager.

I agree with Annis (and that doesn`t happen very often ) that this creation of an artificial , U.S. style, manufactured atmosphere is no substitute for genuine passion of fans. Well meaning attempts by those trying to organise it , and doing something other than just moaning about the lack of atmosphere is to be admired and applauded but it is false and seems rather forced rather than natural.

What I disagree with him on (there , I knew it wouldn`t last ) is this persistent call by a few to move ends to have a singing section next to away fans - I just don`t get it. Perhaps the best home fan atmosphere throughout Europe is in the German Bundesliga where fans congregate to generate tremendous noise and support for their team at the opposite end to away fans. They don`t seem to feel the need to "eyeball" away fans in order to be able to make such noise - they focus more on supporting their own team than worrying about what away fans are doing (and it is the same in Spain, Italy etc) .
Getting far more people into the ground in the first place is , in my view , the top priority followed by getting as many of those as wish to together in a singing session in the Canton Stand.

Hallelujah someone speaking some common sense! I 100% endorse what you're saying here! Support the team and players not waste your energy on the opposing fans! Look what's it's done for the Welsh team! The way we got behind the Welsh Team (and not bothered with the Belgium supporters) was a sight to behold! It certainly helped the team get over the line!