England's biggest club V Wales biggest club

Most famous clubs... Cardiff v Liverpool.

That's a different topic

Love to beat them again, it'll be the 4th time on the spin

33,000 watch us in Miller park, Milwaukee last year, granted most were there to watch the Mexican side Chivas but still, 66,000 eyeballs watching, who'd have thought 12 years ago.

You had 55,419 watching you against Barnsley in the L1 play-off final nine years ago and I'd imagine more than 66,000 against Reading five years later.

Biggest club in Wales though? Nah, you still have a while to go. Try almost winning the first division, winning the FA Cup, a few more major European adventures and a bigger stadium/fanbase first.

I'm sorry. How can we be possibly bigger than them? Jesus is this debate still going on?

how are they bigger????

They're getting bigger attendances. Much more successful. Have more fans around the world. Bigger income. All factors of making a big club. Hate to say it but the jacks are on the brink of something huge.

Attendances can vary so much, if we put a run together in the league we will be getting more than them again. It's a much longer view of history which determines which club is bigger and four good years are small in the wider context of the clubs histories.

I agree that you have to look at the big picture, but only what is relevant to today, going back to claim things 100 years ago when done nothing since is stretching it a little. Unless a club has had continued success over 100 years (like a Man United) then very rarely do I hear clubs claiming things from that time as a relevant reason they are bigger than another side.

We are extremely proud of the cup win in the 1920's - but it has little to do with how big a club we are today. There is probably not one solitary fan that remembers it. It was in an era when Bury won it twice and so did Notts County, Barnsley and Blackpool. That was also the time when we did well in the old division 1. So although we can be proud, it has little baring on today. Football is now a different entity.

If you did a straw poll throughout the UK then the jacks would be seen as the bigger club almost unanimously. I guarantee it. I have this opinion because I dont live in the CF11 ir even the Welsh bubble so know full well peoples thoughts on the matter. After their recent cup win, being established as a top half Premier League team, top 20 richest clubs in the World, succesfull European campaign and calibre of players they continue to attract - then they are the biggest club currently, hands down.

Are we putting success on the pitch as the measuring factor? For example, Leeds United and Sheffield Wednesday are both bigger clubs than us and Swansea put together.

Are we putting success on the pitch as the measuring factor? For example, Leeds United and Sheffield Wednesday are both bigger clubs than us and Swansea put together.

There are a load of factors, which is probably why nobody ever agrees. But id agree that both Leeds and Sheff Wed are bigger than both main Welsh clubs. It wasnt that long ago Leeds were in the Champions League and Sheffield Wednesday also have won honours relatively recently as well as a rich history of dining at the top table. Add Forest to that list too.

Most famous clubs... Cardiff v Liverpool.

That's a different topic

Love to beat them again, it'll be the 4th time on the spin

33,000 watch us in Miller park, Milwaukee last year, granted most were there to watch the Mexican side Chivas but still, 66,000 eyeballs watching, who'd have thought 12 years ago.

99% were no doubt there to watch the mexican team as USA is home to many of them. What have been that crowed if cardiff played that team there.

Are we putting success on the pitch as the measuring factor? For example, Leeds United and Sheffield Wednesday are both bigger clubs than us and Swansea put together.

There are a load of factors, which is probably why nobody ever agrees. But id agree that both Leeds and Sheff Wed are bigger than both main Welsh clubs. It wasnt that long ago Leeds were in the Champions League and Sheffield Wednesday also have won honours relatively recently as well as a rich history of dining at the top table. Add Forest to that list too.

I'd agree that all three of those are bigger clubs than us currently.

117 posts Roath all on jack related threads, now pretending to be a Cardiff fan that knows an awful lot about Swansea. You couldn't be more obvious if you tried. Thought the Mods got rid of you a long time ago, obviously not, get over your obsession with your neighbours for gods sake.

Are we putting success on the pitch as the measuring factor? For example, Leeds United and Sheffield Wednesday are both bigger clubs than us and Swansea put together.

There are a load of factors, which is probably why nobody ever agrees. But id agree that both Leeds and Sheff Wed are bigger than both main Welsh clubs. It wasnt that long ago Leeds were in the Champions League and Sheffield Wednesday also have won honours relatively recently as well as a rich history of dining at the top table. Add Forest to that list too.

In the interest of clarity and facts, I would like to point out that Sheffield Wednesday have not won a trophy since 1991, they won that trophy as a second tier football league club. I agree that they are a massive club with Enormous potential because of the support they would receive if they attained promotion to the Premier League but their recent history is hardly auspicious.

I agree that you have to look at the big picture, but only what is relevant to today, going back to claim things 100 years ago when done nothing since is stretching it a little. Unless a club has had continued success over 100 years (like a Man United) then very rarely do I hear clubs claiming things from that time as a relevant reason they are bigger than another side.

We are extremely proud of the cup win in the 1920's - but it has little to do with how big a club we are today. There is probably not one solitary fan that remembers it. It was in an era when Bury won it twice and so did Notts County, Barnsley and Blackpool. That was also the time when we did well in the old division 1. So although we can be proud, it has little baring on today. Football is now a different entity.

If you did a straw poll throughout the UK then the jacks would be seen as the bigger club almost unanimously. I guarantee it. I have this opinion because I dont live in the CF11 ir even the Welsh bubble so know full well peoples thoughts on the matter. After their recent cup win, being established as a top half Premier League team, top 20 richest clubs in the World, succesfull European campaign and calibre of players they continue to attract - then they are the biggest club currently, hands down.

how you are allowed on here after the stunt you pulled ill never know!

Are we putting success on the pitch as the measuring factor? For example, Leeds United and Sheffield Wednesday are both bigger clubs than us and Swansea put together.

There are a load of factors, which is probably why nobody ever agrees. But id agree that both Leeds and Sheff Wed are bigger than both main Welsh clubs. It wasnt that long ago Leeds were in the Champions League and Sheffield Wednesday also have won honours relatively recently as well as a rich history of dining at the top table. Add Forest to that list too.

In the interest of clarity and facts, I would like to point out that Sheffield Wednesday have not won a trophy since 1991, they won that trophy as a second tier football league club. I agree that they are a massive club with Enormous potential because of the support they would receive if they attained promotion to the Premier League but their recent history is hardly auspicious.

Id say the 1990's is relatively recent in footballing terms.

Are we putting success on the pitch as the measuring factor? For example, Leeds United and Sheffield Wednesday are both bigger clubs than us and Swansea put together.

There are a load of factors, which is probably why nobody ever agrees. But id agree that both Leeds and Sheff Wed are bigger than both main Welsh clubs. It wasnt that long ago Leeds were in the Champions League and Sheffield Wednesday also have won honours relatively recently as well as a rich history of dining at the top table. Add Forest to that list too.

Regarding Leeds and Wednesday, I was thinking more in terms of the fact that they have both had 38k crowds in league 1 in recent years. Personally, I would use the proven fan base as the measurement for a club's size, but as you say, nobody ever agrees! Going to Forest on Saturday

24 years ago is recent? How old are you? That was their first trophy for over 50 years and they haven't won one since? Yet you have said they are a bigger club than us?

In the last ten years we have played in an FA cup final, League cup final, a Championshop play-off final ( the richest club game in the World according to the media) and we have been the winners of the Championship. Not a bad record for the second biggest club in Wales.

Regarding Leeds and Wednesday, I was thinking more in terms of the fact that they have both had 38k crowds in league 1 in recent years. Personally, I would use the proven fan base as the measurement for a club's size, but as you say, nobody ever agrees! Going to Forest on Saturday

Yes that is another factor certainly but success and fan base largely go hand in hand. There are knock on effects to success that are felt for the next few decades. If Leeds did nothing for the next 70 years they would not have 38k attendances if in League 1 for example.

Are we putting success on the pitch as the measuring factor? For example, Leeds United and Sheffield Wednesday are both bigger clubs than us and Swansea put together.

There are a load of factors, which is probably why nobody ever agrees. But id agree that both Leeds and Sheff Wed are bigger than both main Welsh clubs. It wasnt that long ago Leeds were in the Champions League and Sheffield Wednesday also have won honours relatively recently as well as a rich history of dining at the top table. Add Forest to that list too.

In the interest of clarity and facts, I would like to point out that Sheffield Wednesday have not won a trophy since 1991, they won that trophy as a second tier football league club. I agree that they are a massive club with Enormous potential because of the support they would receive if they attained promotion to the Premier League but their recent history is hardly auspicious.

Personally, I would judge a club's size on their fan base, not on trophies won. That's why I used Sheffield Wednesday as an example. They had 38k for their last home game in league 1, when they got promoted. But I appreciate that others use different criteria to work out a club's size. Interesting discussion, though.

24 years ago is recent? How old are you? That was their first trophy for over 50 years and they haven't won one since? Yet you have said they are a bigger club than us?

In the last ten years we have played in an FA cup final, League cup final, a Championshop play-off final ( the richest club game in the World according to the media) and we have been the winners of the Championship. Not a bad record for the second biggest club in Wales.

Yes, in footballing terms the 1990's is recent. I remember the 90's very well indeed. Yes they are bigger than us, winning a trophy in the 90's has far more impact on the club than in the 20's. They have also spent more time at the top table in recent history.

Yes we have done moderately well but they are only finals and second tier achievements. Would any Prem team swap a major cup win for a division 2 title? A cup finalist spot? No way.

Regarding Leeds and Wednesday, I was thinking more in terms of the fact that they have both had 38k crowds in league 1 in recent years. Personally, I would use the proven fan base as the measurement for a club's size, but as you say, nobody ever agrees! Going to Forest on Saturday

Yes that is another factor certainly but success and fan base largely go hand in hand. There are knock on effects to success that are felt for the next few decades. If Leeds did nothing for the next 70 years they would not have 38k attendances if in League 1 for example.

Leeds don't have 38k attendances. That's their capacity, just 22k there last saturday against wednesday. They're home crowds are piss poor for a club that size.

Are we putting success on the pitch as the measuring factor? For example, Leeds United and Sheffield Wednesday are both bigger clubs than us and Swansea put together.

There are a load of factors, which is probably why nobody ever agrees. But id agree that both Leeds and Sheff Wed are bigger than both main Welsh clubs. It wasnt that long ago Leeds were in the Champions League and Sheffield Wednesday also have won honours relatively recently as well as a rich history of dining at the top table. Add Forest to that list too.

In the interest of clarity and facts, I would like to point out that Sheffield Wednesday have not won a trophy since 1991, they won that trophy as a second tier football league club. I agree that they are a massive club with Enormous potential because of the support they would receive if they attained promotion to the Premier League but their recent history is hardly auspicious.

Personally, I would judge a club's size on their fan base, not on trophies won. That's why I used Sheffield Wednesday as an example. They had 38k for their last home game in league 1, when they got promoted. But I appreciate that others use different criteria to work out a club's size. Interesting discussion, though.

Fair enough.mfir me though, It is an old fashioned notion, and one that was very relevant at the time- as it was the lifeblood of a club. More fans through the gate meant more money for the club which meant higher wages they could pay which generally speaking meant how successful they would be. So back then the size of a club quite concievably could have been judged largely on that. These days gate reciepts fade into the background and are almost an irrelevance when it comes to a clubs soending power thus is the wealth these clubs earn elsewhere.

Regarding Leeds and Wednesday, I was thinking more in terms of the fact that they have both had 38k crowds in league 1 in recent years. Personally, I would use the proven fan base as the measurement for a club's size, but as you say, nobody ever agrees! Going to Forest on Saturday

Yes that is another factor certainly but success and fan base largely go hand in hand. There are knock on effects to success that are felt for the next few decades. If Leeds did nothing for the next 70 years they would not have 38k attendances if in League 1 for example.

Leeds don't have 38k attendances. That's their capacity, just 22k there last saturday against wednesday. They're home crowds are piss poor for a club that size.

And the longer they go without success the lower that crowd will go. The more success and the higher it will go. So if fans through the gate is what is the yard-stick is, well that is based on success.

Regarding Leeds and Wednesday, I was thinking more in terms of the fact that they have both had 38k crowds in league 1 in recent years. Personally, I would use the proven fan base as the measurement for a club's size, but as you say, nobody ever agrees! Going to Forest on Saturday

Yes that is another factor certainly but success and fan base largely go hand in hand. There are knock on effects to success that are felt for the next few decades. If Leeds did nothing for the next 70 years they would not have 38k attendances if in League 1 for example.

Leeds don't have 38k attendances. That's their capacity, just 22k there last saturday against wednesday. They're home crowds are piss poor for a club that size.

Not every week, they don't. They do, on occasion, though, such as when they beat The Gas to win promotion back to the Championship. The potential is always there. Think they had 28k against Burnley, which is decent for early season. That's as far as I'm going to speak up for them, though!

24 years ago is recent? How old are you? That was their first trophy for over 50 years and they haven't won one since? Yet you have said they are a bigger club than us?

In the last ten years we have played in an FA cup final, League cup final, a Championshop play-off final ( the richest club game in the World according to the media) and we have been the winners of the Championship. Not a bad record for the second biggest club in Wales.

Yes, in footballing terms the 1990's is recent. I remember the 90's very well indeed. Yes they are bigger than us, winning a trophy in the 90's has far more impact on the club than in the 20's. They have also spent more time at the top table in recent history.

Yes we have done moderately well but they are only finals and second tier achievements. Would any Prem team swap a major cup win for a division 2 title? A cup finalist spot? No way.

Wigan Athletic area bigger club than both Cardiff and Swansea Town then!

We are both small to average size clubs. Newcastle, Leeds, sunderland ect are medium sized clubs. Man city, Chelsea, arsenal everton ect are big clubs. Liverpool, man united are massive clubs. That's how I see it anyway lol

24 years ago is recent? How old are you? That was their first trophy for over 50 years and they haven't won one since? Yet you have said they are a bigger club than us?

In the last ten years we have played in an FA cup final, League cup final, a Championshop play-off final ( the richest club game in the World according to the media) and we have been the winners of the Championship. Not a bad record for the second biggest club in Wales.

Yes, in footballing terms the 1990's is recent. I remember the 90's very well indeed. Yes they are bigger than us, winning a trophy in the 90's has far more impact on the club than in the 20's. They have also spent more time at the top table in recent history.

Yes we have done moderately well but they are only finals and second tier achievements. Would any Prem team swap a major cup win for a division 2 title? A cup finalist spot? No way.

Wigan Athletic area bigger club than both Cardiff and Swansea Town then!

Its a combination of things as I said so no, id say both were bigger than Wigan. But it is subjective.

Wigan are almost an exception to the rule when it comes to what makes a big club as there is so little interest in their area that even success doesnt seem to bring out the local public in their droves. Both Swansea and Cardiff public react to success and failure as we are seeing now. Sellouts at both grounds are not uncommon when the going gets good.

But both Swansea and Cardiff are small to medium sized clubs.

24 years ago is recent? How old are you? That was their first trophy for over 50 years and they haven't won one since? Yet you have said they are a bigger club than us?

In the last ten years we have played in an FA cup final, League cup final, a Championshop play-off final ( the richest club game in the World according to the media) and we have been the winners of the Championship. Not a bad record for the second biggest club in Wales.

Yes, in footballing terms the 1990's is recent. I remember the 90's very well indeed. Yes they are bigger than us, winning a trophy in the 90's has far more impact on the club than in the 20's. They have also spent more time at the top table in recent history.

Yes we have done moderately well but they are only finals and second tier achievements. Would any Prem team swap a major cup win for a division 2 title? A cup finalist spot? No way.

Wigan Athletic area bigger club than both Cardiff and Swansea Town then!

Its a combination of things as I said so no, id say both were bigger than Wigan. But it is subjective.

Wigan are almost an exception to the rule when it comes to what makes a big club as there is so little interest in their area that even success doesnt seem to bring out the local public in their droves. Both Swansea and Cardiff public react to success and failure as we are seeing now. Sellouts at both grounds are not uncommon when the going gets good.

But both Swansea and Cardiff are small to medium sized clubs.

Wigan have a higher home record attendance than Swnsea Town by about 5,000 people, so why are they the exception to your rule?

Because they have more seats, having more seats doesn't make you a bigger club in my opinion. Swansea are crying out for expansion.

Because they have more seats, having more seats doesn't make you a bigger club in my opinion. Swansea are crying out for expansion.

However, they do not have one! I wonder where the finance for the projected expansion will come from? They have been talking about it for a long time, but still no action. If they re such a big club I would have thought this would be a priority. Surely, it can't be to doubts about filling the stadium?

Because they have more seats, having more seats doesn't make you a bigger club in my opinion. Swansea are crying out for expansion.

However, they do not have one! I wonder where the finance for the projected expansion will come from? They have been talking about it for a long time, but still no action. If they re such a big club I would have thought this would be a priority. Surely, it can't be to doubts about filling the stadium?

No they dont, but as I said, having more seats doesnt make you a bigger club in my opinion. The fact they need one is more relevant than them actually having one in that respect. As for the finances, who knows? The Premier League is due for another windfall next year maybe they will actually do it then? It cant be easy with council owning the ground and all.

So by all your chosen parameters Wigan exceed Swansea Town:

A higher record attendance;

A longer period in the Premier League in the modern era;

Winners of a more prestigious cup, FA as apposed to League;

European qualification;

A stadium they actually own.

However, in your opinion Swansea are a bigger club! Obviously, they are currently more successful than Wigan but by what parameter are they bigger?

I really am interested in what defines a bigger or smaller club? Success for some clubs is transient and relative for others it is sustained and historical. They are the big clubs!

So by all your chosen parameters Wigan exceed Swansea Town:

A higher record attendance;

A longer period in the Premier League in the modern era;

Winners of a more prestigious cup, FA as apposed to League;

European qualification;

A stadium they actually own.

However, in your opinion Swansea are a bigger club! Obviously, they are currently more successful than Wigan but by what parameter are they bigger?

I really am interested in what defines a bigger or smaller club? Success for some clubs is transient and relative for others it is sustained and historical. They are the big clubs!

But almost none of those are peramerers I set, they are perameters you seem to have set.

-Where did I say record high attendances mean a bigger club? In fact, I was clear to say it didnt.

- Yes they spent a longer period in the Premier League and Wigan fans may use that as a reason they are bigger than both Swansea and Cardiff - but Swansea have enjoyed a more successful one and one that will almost certainly exceed Wigans stay.

- Where did I say winners of a more prestigious cup means they are bigger? I said major cup wins.

- Both Wigan and Swansea have qualified for Europe, Swansea doing the better if the two in it also.

- Where did I say owning the stadium means you are a big club?

That is an odd response to the discussion we just had.

What parameters make Swamsea a bigger club than Wigan then, transient success? All Swansea have won is the league cup! They have won admirers for their style,of football but have never finished in the top 6 and they are very unlikely too, they have the second lowest capacity in the Premier League and their academy has currently produced very few palyers of value or talent.