' VINCENT TAN DEBT TO EQUITY ' - by Keith Morgan

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

interesting, can you explain some more?

Gavin/Keith

Sincere thanks for that VERY enlightening post/comment

It certainly answers a lot of questions and clarifies matters for me (and hopefully the majority of supporters)

Hopefully, Vincent Tan will honour his 'promise' of debt-to-equity, as it would make such a huge difference to the club; and by default its loyal supporters, the city of Cardiff itself and its surrounding areas too

I can see within that statement (possibly loss of 'control'?) why Tan is maybe "holding back" whilst certain issues are sorted, but I think a clear statement from him (Tan) would be very timely come the end of this season, once we know our fate for next season

Thanks again, guys

Sven

Thanks Gavin/Keith

Chris, This shows without a doubt Vincent Tan needs to honour his word, which is now nearly 2 years ago and change the debt to equity and remember this, the debt is nearly all his anyway, weve gone from a £30 odd mill debt to £130 mill approx debt in 2 years

Also there always seems to be some reason why he is holding back, I was at the meeting nearly 2 yrs ago and the promise made was, if the fans accepted his despicable rebrand summer 2012, then Tan would invest £100 Mill, well so far he has only lent us it, we need Tan to honour his word.

Each day that passes without the debt turning to equity makes me more and more worried.

Annis,
do you think there is a possibility that the shit aimed in Mr Tan's direction during this last few months may just influence him not to go ahead with the conversion?

It just goes over his head, Tan will decide himself when or what he intends to do and when its best for him, its been nearly 2 years now,not just a couple of months since he said he would turn the debt he created to equity.

Cardiff City Football Club means nothing at all to him.

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

Ok, I'm listening. Enlighten me.

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

interesting, can you explain some more?

Exactly! The simple assumptions I have made so far in the past 2-3 years have later been shown to be well-founded. I would like to get some insight. ?????

Gavin/Keith

Sincere thanks for that VERY enlightening post/comment

It certainly answers a lot of questions and clarifies matters for me (and hopefully the majority of supporters)

Hopefully, Vincent Tan will honour his 'promise' of debt-to-equity, as it would make such a huge difference to the club; and by default its loyal supporters, the city of Cardiff itself and its surrounding areas too

I can see within that statement (possibly loss of 'control'?) why Tan is maybe "holding back" whilst certain issues are sorted, but I think a clear statement from him (Tan) would be very timely come the end of this season, once we know our fate for next season

Thanks again, guys

Sven

Thanks Gavin/Keith

Chris, This shows without a doubt Vincent Tan needs to honour his word, which is now nearly 2 years ago and change the debt to equity and remember this, the debt is nearly all his anyway, weve gone from a £30 odd mill debt to £130 mill approx debt in 2 years

Also there always seems to be some reason why he is holding back, I was at the meeting nearly 2 yrs ago and the promise made was, if the fans accepted his despicable rebrand summer 2012, then Tan would invest £100 Mill, well so far he has only lent us it, we need Tan to honour his word.

Each day that passes without the debt turning to equity makes me more and more worried.

Annis,
do you think there is a possibility that the shit aimed in Mr Tan's direction during this last few months may just influence him not to go ahead with the conversion?

It just goes over his head, Tan will decide himself when or what he intends to do and when its best for him, its been nearly 2 years now,not just a couple of months since he said he would turn the debt he created to equity.

Cardiff City Football Club means nothing at all to him.

give it a rest annis. Stop posting rubbish opinions as statements of fact!

Keith is this 100% fact

There is several things that could make it interesting for VT to keep the debt.
1. He get interest from the depth ( 5 mill a year) which he doesnt from equity.
2. He has a way out if he needs to or wants to. Sell the players, take the money,
And walk away from a club he feels did not appreciate his money anyway.
3. He is stucked with the club if equity, as there will be no other buyers.
4. He might regret the investment because of the abuse from part of the fanbase, and see P2 as a possibility.
5. He will wait for the Milky case to be sorted. Perhaps he rather ruin the club than pay Milky.(P2)

Gavin/Keith

Sincere thanks for that VERY enlightening post/comment

It certainly answers a lot of questions and clarifies matters for me (and hopefully the majority of supporters)

Hopefully, Vincent Tan will honour his 'promise' of debt-to-equity, as it would make such a huge difference to the club; and by default its loyal supporters, the city of Cardiff itself and its surrounding areas too

I can see within that statement (possibly loss of 'control'?) why Tan is maybe "holding back" whilst certain issues are sorted, but I think a clear statement from him (Tan) would be very timely come the end of this season, once we know our fate for next season

Thanks again, guys

Sven

Thanks Gavin/Keith

Chris, This shows without a doubt Vincent Tan needs to honour his word, which is now nearly 2 years ago and change the debt to equity and remember this, the debt is nearly all his anyway, weve gone from a £30 odd mill debt to £130 mill approx debt in 2 years

Also there always seems to be some reason why he is holding back, I was at the meeting nearly 2 yrs ago and the promise made was, if the fans accepted his despicable rebrand summer 2012, then Tan would invest £100 Mill, well so far he has only lent us it, we need Tan to honour his word.

Each day that passes without the debt turning to equity makes me more and more worried.

Annis,
do you think there is a possibility that the shit aimed in Mr Tan's direction during this last few months may just influence him not to go ahead with the conversion?

It just goes over his head, Tan will decide himself when or what he intends to do and when its best for him, its been nearly 2 years now,not just a couple of months since he said he would turn the debt he created to equity.

Cardiff City Football Club means nothing at all to him.

give it a rest annis. Stop posting rubbish opinions as statements of fact!

ALL FACTS 100%


Thats it Natman, Uve continued to stalk me no matter how much I have asked you to stay off my posts and by the way I am not yr friend on FB like u say or do I ph u, last time for nearly 3 days 24/7 u pm me on FB, get a life, U honestly need help.

Been waiting for tan to honour his word for ages fact is if he doent the langston debt and trouble it caused the club would be nothing compared to tans debt of over 100 mill worrying times big time

I have no respect for Tan, No one should be allowed to strip an identity(100 years old) from a football club, imagine if we went to another country and did that to their club.
Tan has no respect for us and yes a minority went along with him, many also did it for the promise of a debt free club, personally within minutes of digesting what the blackmail was, I realised NO, I will never like or accept it and will try and fight for our pride and identity back.

Our club is in a worse state than before Tan took it over, a club without an identity,a Championship club, a divided club and a club with a debt of £130 mill approx

Totally agree 100 % the worst moment was are stadium full of red scarves what blackmail I hated that game .it took time but we all seem to be on the same wave length well most of us.

Only time will tell regarding the debt but you and I both no tan is a cock

Been waiting for tan to honour his word for ages fact is if he doent the langston debt and trouble it caused the club would be nothing compared to tans debt of over 100 mill worrying times big time

I have no respect for Tan, No one should be allowed to strip an identity(100 years old) from a football club, imagine if we went to another country and did that to their club.
Tan has no respect for us and yes a minority went along with him, many also did it for the promise of a debt free club, personally within minutes of digesting what the blackmail was, I realised NO, I will never like or accept it and will try and fight for our pride and identity back.

Our club is in a worse state than before Tan took it over, a club without an identity,a Championship club, a divided club and a club with a debt of £130 mill approx

Totally agree 100 % the worst moment was are stadium full of red scarves what blackmail I hated that game .it took time but we all seem to be on the same wave length well most of us.

Only time will tell regarding the debt but you and I both no tan is a cock

Gavin/Keith

Sincere thanks for that VERY enlightening post/comment

It certainly answers a lot of questions and clarifies matters for me (and hopefully the majority of supporters)

Hopefully, Vincent Tan will honour his 'promise' of debt-to-equity, as it would make such a huge difference to the club; and by default its loyal supporters, the city of Cardiff itself and its surrounding areas too

I can see within that statement (possibly loss of 'control'?) why Tan is maybe "holding back" whilst certain issues are sorted, but I think a clear statement from him (Tan) would be very timely come the end of this season, once we know our fate for next season

Thanks again, guys

Sven

Thanks Gavin/Keith

Chris, This shows without a doubt Vincent Tan needs to honour his word, which is now nearly 2 years ago and change the debt to equity and remember this, the debt is nearly all his anyway, weve gone from a £30 odd mill debt to £130 mill approx debt in 2 years

Also there always seems to be some reason why he is holding back, I was at the meeting nearly 2 yrs ago and the promise made was, if the fans accepted his despicable rebrand summer 2012, then Tan would invest £100 Mill, well so far he has only lent us it, we need Tan to honour his word.

Each day that passes without the debt turning to equity makes me more and more worried.

Annis,
do you think there is a possibility that the shit aimed in Mr Tan's direction during this last few months may just influence him not to go ahead with the conversion?

It just goes over his head, Tan will decide himself when or what he intends to do and when its best for him, its been nearly 2 years now,not just a couple of months since he said he would turn the debt he created to equity.

Cardiff City Football Club means nothing at all to him.

So all the protests and negativity have been a waste of time.

Gavin/Keith

Sincere thanks for that VERY enlightening post/comment

It certainly answers a lot of questions and clarifies matters for me (and hopefully the majority of supporters)

Hopefully, Vincent Tan will honour his 'promise' of debt-to-equity, as it would make such a huge difference to the club; and by default its loyal supporters, the city of Cardiff itself and its surrounding areas too

I can see within that statement (possibly loss of 'control'?) why Tan is maybe "holding back" whilst certain issues are sorted, but I think a clear statement from him (Tan) would be very timely come the end of this season, once we know our fate for next season

Thanks again, guys

Sven

Thanks Gavin/Keith

Chris, This shows without a doubt Vincent Tan needs to honour his word, which is now nearly 2 years ago and change the debt to equity and remember this, the debt is nearly all his anyway, weve gone from a £30 odd mill debt to £130 mill approx debt in 2 years

Also there always seems to be some reason why he is holding back, I was at the meeting nearly 2 yrs ago and the promise made was, if the fans accepted his despicable rebrand summer 2012, then Tan would invest £100 Mill, well so far he has only lent us it, we need Tan to honour his word.

Each day that passes without the debt turning to equity makes me more and more worried.

Annis,
do you think there is a possibility that the shit aimed in Mr Tan's direction during this last few months may just influence him not to go ahead with the conversion?

It just goes over his head, Tan will decide himself when or what he intends to do and when its best for him, its been nearly 2 years now,not just a couple of months since he said he would turn the debt he created to equity.

Cardiff City Football Club means nothing at all to him.

So all the protests and negativity have been a waste of time.

No not at all.

Its made those involved feel proud and we have felt at least we have shown that we care about our identity.

I have been told the Blue scarfs in the ground is finally getting to him and it might stop him going further with the rebrand, on that note, we can only wait and see.

Was this posted a few months ago?

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

interesting, can you explain some more?

Exactly! The simple assumptions I have made so far in the past 2-3 years have later been shown to be well-founded. I would like to get some insight. ?????

No idea what 'simple assumptions' you have made over the past 2-3 years so I couldn't have a view on whether they are well founded or not.

As to the matters to which I referred, you have things such as tax losses which can be offset against profits elsewhere and carried forward over time. So for example, I can have one trading company that's making a trading loss and set that off against profits elsewhere but I still have a book value for the assets of that trading company. How do his UK investments fit into his Malaysian interests accounting and otherwise? Is there a a currency play?This is the sort of thing that clever accountants and tax lawyers get involved with.It will influence strategy.
I have no idea how it's set up and I suspect neither do you, Annis, K Morgan or anyone else on this board.

Gavin/Keith

Sincere thanks for that VERY enlightening post/comment

It certainly answers a lot of questions and clarifies matters for me (and hopefully the majority of supporters)

Hopefully, Vincent Tan will honour his 'promise' of debt-to-equity, as it would make such a huge difference to the club; and by default its loyal supporters, the city of Cardiff itself and its surrounding areas too

I can see within that statement (possibly loss of 'control'?) why Tan is maybe "holding back" whilst certain issues are sorted, but I think a clear statement from him (Tan) would be very timely come the end of this season, once we know our fate for next season

Thanks again, guys

Sven

Thanks Gavin/Keith

Chris, This shows without a doubt Vincent Tan needs to honour his word, which is now nearly 2 years ago and change the debt to equity and remember this, the debt is nearly all his anyway, weve gone from a £30 odd mill debt to £130 mill approx debt in 2 years

Also there always seems to be some reason why he is holding back, I was at the meeting nearly 2 yrs ago and the promise made was, if the fans accepted his despicable rebrand summer 2012, then Tan would invest £100 Mill, well so far he has only lent us it, we need Tan to honour his word.

Each day that passes without the debt turning to equity makes me more and more worried.

Annis,
do you think there is a possibility that the shit aimed in Mr Tan's direction during this last few months may just influence him not to go ahead with the conversion?

It just goes over his head, Tan will decide himself when or what he intends to do and when its best for him, its been nearly 2 years now,not just a couple of months since he said he would turn the debt he created to equity.

Cardiff City Football Club means nothing at all to him.

So all the protests and negativity have been a waste of time.

No not at all.

Its made those involved feel proud and we have felt at least we have shown that we care about our identity.

I have been told the Blue scarfs in the ground is finally getting to him and it might stop him going further with the rebrand, on that note, we can only wait and see.

Mmmmm.Not sure that tallies with what you said above but hey-ho.

What else did he have in mind regarding re-branding? I know he's said 'never say never' but I think a name change would be a no-no. Red seats throughout would just be a waste of money. So what else would there be?

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

interesting, can you explain some more?

Exactly! The simple assumptions I have made so far in the past 2-3 years have later been shown to be well-founded. I would like to get some insight. ?????

No idea what 'simple assumptions' you have made over the past 2-3 years so I couldn't have a view on whether they are well founded or not.

As to the matters to which I referred, you have things such as tax losses which can be offset against profits elsewhere and carried forward over time. So for example, I can have one trading company that's making a trading loss and set that off against profits elsewhere but I still have a book value for the assets of that trading company. How do his UK investments fit into his Malaysian interests accounting and otherwise? Is there a a currency play?This is the sort of thing that clever accountants and tax lawyers get involved with.It will influence strategy.
I have no idea how it's set up and I suspect neither do you, Annis, K Morgan or anyone else on this board.

Very good. Thanks for that explanation.

However, as you admitted, you have no idea how his full portfolio is set up so I venture to say you know no more than I for certain.

What is clear, though, is that he can't be trusted with our club identity and the assumptions I have made in terms of his behaviour have been pretty much spot-on. I don't blame him for wanting a return on his investment, but what I am saying is that on past experience, he is unlikely to fulfil his promise to convert debts to equity.

The explanation at the top of this thread, while it doesn't take into account international differences in tax, profit and loss across Tan's empire, does give a fairly factual run-down of factors and scenarios.

If you can do better, try, but your attempt , too, will be riddled with conjecture because you know little more than the rest of us.

It's all very well trying to be clever, but to do that, you need to give an improved model.

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

interesting, can you explain some more?

Exactly! The simple assumptions I have made so far in the past 2-3 years have later been shown to be well-founded. I would like to get some insight. ?????

No idea what 'simple assumptions' you have made over the past 2-3 years so I couldn't have a view on whether they are well founded or not.

As to the matters to which I referred, you have things such as tax losses which can be offset against profits elsewhere and carried forward over time. So for example, I can have one trading company that's making a trading loss and set that off against profits elsewhere but I still have a book value for the assets of that trading company. How do his UK investments fit into his Malaysian interests accounting and otherwise? Is there a a currency play?This is the sort of thing that clever accountants and tax lawyers get involved with.It will influence strategy.
I have no idea how it's set up and I suspect neither do you, Annis, K Morgan or anyone else on this board.

Very good. Thanks for that explanation.

However, as you admitted, you have no idea how his full portfolio is set up so I venture to say you know no more than I for certain.

What is clear, though, is that he can't be trusted with our club identity and the assumptions I have made in terms of his behaviour have been pretty much spot-on. I don't blame him for wanting a return on his investment, but what I am saying is that on past experience, he is unlikely to fulfil his promise to convert debts to equity.

The explanation at the top of this thread, while it doesn't take into account international differences in tax, profit and loss across Tan's empire, does give a fairly factual run-down of factors and scenarios.

If you can do better, try, but your attempt , too, will be riddled with conjecture because you know little more than the rest of us.

It's all very well trying to be clever, but to do that, you need to give an improved model.

simply pointing out that in any modelling there will be unknowns and -with respect -the many unknowns constitute potentially quite important omissions from Morgan's analysis.' In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eye'd man is King.'

As to Tan's promises, well we'll have to wait and see but as far as I am aware,

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

interesting, can you explain some more?

Exactly! The simple assumptions I have made so far in the past 2-3 years have later been shown to be well-founded. I would like to get some insight. ?????

No idea what 'simple assumptions' you have made over the past 2-3 years so I couldn't have a view on whether they are well founded or not.

As to the matters to which I referred, you have things such as tax losses which can be offset against profits elsewhere and carried forward over time. So for example, I can have one trading company that's making a trading loss and set that off against profits elsewhere but I still have a book value for the assets of that trading company. How do his UK investments fit into his Malaysian interests accounting and otherwise? Is there a a currency play?This is the sort of thing that clever accountants and tax lawyers get involved with.It will influence strategy.
I have no idea how it's set up and I suspect neither do you, Annis, K Morgan or anyone else on this board.

Very good. Thanks for that explanation.

However, as you admitted, you have no idea how his full portfolio is set up so I venture to say you know no more than I for certain.

What is clear, though, is that he can't be trusted with our club identity and the assumptions I have made in terms of his behaviour have been pretty much spot-on. I don't blame him for wanting a return on his investment, but what I am saying is that on past experience, he is unlikely to fulfil his promise to convert debts to equity.

The explanation at the top of this thread, while it doesn't take into account international differences in tax, profit and loss across Tan's empire, does give a fairly factual run-down of factors and scenarios.

If you can do better, try, but your attempt , too, will be riddled with conjecture because you know little more than the rest of us.

It's all very well trying to be clever, but to do that, you need to give an improved model.

I am simply pointing out that in any modelling there will be unknowns and -with respect -the many unknowns referred to constitute potentially quite important omissions from Morgan's analysis.And of course there is the human factor in terms of what Mr Tan and his sons decide.But, as far as Morgan's goes regarding CCFC I would simply say,' In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eye'd man is King.'

As to Tan's promises, well we'll have to wait and see but as far as I am aware, the only one outstanding to date is the conversion.

As to Tan's promises, well we'll have to wait and see but as far as I am aware, the only one outstanding to date is the conversion.

The most important one, you mean? The one he is constantly delaying? Despite it being the only reason why some fans can stomach his ghastly rebrand?

As to Tan's promises, well we'll have to wait and see but as far as I am aware, the only one outstanding to date is the conversion.

The most important one, you mean? The one he is constantly delaying? Despite it being the only reason why some fans can stomach his ghastly rebrand?

Evening, grass.

Gavin/Keith

Sincere thanks for that VERY enlightening post/comment

It certainly answers a lot of questions and clarifies matters for me (and hopefully the majority of supporters)

Hopefully, Vincent Tan will honour his 'promise' of debt-to-equity, as it would make such a huge difference to the club; and by default its loyal supporters, the city of Cardiff itself and its surrounding areas too

I can see within that statement (possibly loss of 'control'?) why Tan is maybe "holding back" whilst certain issues are sorted, but I think a clear statement from him (Tan) would be very timely come the end of this season, once we know our fate for next season

Thanks again, guys

Sven

Thanks Gavin/Keith

Chris, This shows without a doubt Vincent Tan needs to honour his word, which is now nearly 2 years ago and change the debt to equity and remember this, the debt is nearly all his anyway, weve gone from a £30 odd mill debt to £130 mill approx debt in 2 years

Also there always seems to be some reason why he is holding back, I was at the meeting nearly 2 yrs ago and the promise made was, if the fans accepted his despicable rebrand summer 2012, then Tan would invest £100 Mill, well so far he has only lent us it, we need Tan to honour his word.

Each day that passes without the debt turning to equity makes me more and more worried.

Sorry Annis, been out this evening...

Totally agree with your comments above. My only 'reservation' is whether Tan has a genuine (business) reason for 'holding back' and that is why I think an "end of season statement" on the matter might help explain why it hasn't been done to date

Sadly, I won't hold my breath, though

Gavin/Keith

Sincere thanks for that VERY enlightening post/comment

It certainly answers a lot of questions and clarifies matters for me (and hopefully the majority of supporters)

Hopefully, Vincent Tan will honour his 'promise' of debt-to-equity, as it would make such a huge difference to the club; and by default its loyal supporters, the city of Cardiff itself and its surrounding areas too

I can see within that statement (possibly loss of 'control'?) why Tan is maybe "holding back" whilst certain issues are sorted, but I think a clear statement from him (Tan) would be very timely come the end of this season, once we know our fate for next season

Thanks again, guys

Sven

Thanks Gavin/Keith

Chris, This shows without a doubt Vincent Tan needs to honour his word, which is now nearly 2 years ago and change the debt to equity and remember this, the debt is nearly all his anyway, weve gone from a £30 odd mill debt to £130 mill approx debt in 2 years

Also there always seems to be some reason why he is holding back, I was at the meeting nearly 2 yrs ago and the promise made was, if the fans accepted his despicable rebrand summer 2012, then Tan would invest £100 Mill, well so far he has only lent us it, we need Tan to honour his word.

Each day that passes without the debt turning to equity makes me more and more worried.

Sorry Annis, been out this evening...

Totally agree with your comments above. My only 'reservation' is whether Tan has a genuine (business) reason for 'holding back' and that is why I think an "end of season statement" on the matter might help explain why it hasn't been done to date

Sadly, I won't hold my breath, though

Evening Chris,

Yes I agree a statement from Tan in May is needed

Am I right in thinking that any of the money made off TV rights or the selling of players doesn't have to used to pay off the debts?.

Tan can simply take that money, then demand the loan repayment at a later date?.

Mario, Tan could sell of the players and take all the money due, just by calling the debt he made in.

Lucky Red my arse. Despicable Red.

but any chairman can go down the road of selling players to pay off debts........or build stadia { emerates }......

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

interesting, can you explain some more?

Exactly! The simple assumptions I have made so far in the past 2-3 years have later been shown to be well-founded. I would like to get some insight. ?????

No idea what 'simple assumptions' you have made over the past 2-3 years so I couldn't have a view on whether they are well founded or not.

As to the matters to which I referred, you have things such as tax losses which can be offset against profits elsewhere and carried forward over time. So for example, I can have one trading company that's making a trading loss and set that off against profits elsewhere but I still have a book value for the assets of that trading company. How do his UK investments fit into his Malaysian interests accounting and otherwise? Is there a a currency play?This is the sort of thing that clever accountants and tax lawyers get involved with.It will influence strategy.
I have no idea how it's set up and I suspect neither do you, Annis, K Morgan or anyone else on this board.

Very good. Thanks for that explanation.

However, as you admitted, you have no idea how his full portfolio is set up so I venture to say you know no more than I for certain.

What is clear, though, is that he can't be trusted with our club identity and the assumptions I have made in terms of his behaviour have been pretty much spot-on. I don't blame him for wanting a return on his investment, but what I am saying is that on past experience, he is unlikely to fulfil his promise to convert debts to equity.

The explanation at the top of this thread, while it doesn't take into account international differences in tax, profit and loss across Tan's empire, does give a fairly factual run-down of factors and scenarios.

If you can do better, try, but your attempt , too, will be riddled with conjecture because you know little more than the rest of us.

It's all very well trying to be clever, but to do that, you need to give an improved model.

simply pointing out that in any modelling there will be unknowns and -with respect -the many unknowns constitute potentially quite important omissions from Morgan's analysis.' In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eye'd man is King.'

As to Tan's promises, well we'll have to wait and see but as far as I am aware,

I think you'll find the saying is: "In the LAND of the blind..... Etc"., but no matter eh?

I appreciate your attempts to patronise many of the discussions taking place, but simply adding depth to an analysis without any meaningful outcomes is just being pedantic.

I suggest that those who have two healthy eyes use them both to look objectively at where we were 3 years ago and where we will be shortly.

My personal opinion is Tan the man has no problem converting debt to equity . Its nothing to do with money. It is to do with Power. Tan likes the power, Tan likes the Master / servant mentality and Cardiff is his Bitch and will be for a very long time.

This is brilliant thread - Thank you!

A couple of posts are suggesting that this explains why Tan has "held back" on converting the debt to equity. Sounds like he is waiting for that perfect moment, which will not now come if we go into the 2nd tier for at least another couple of years. After all, he hasn't seen fit to do it within our first year in the PL has he?

My honest opinion is that he has no intention of converting until he can get a profit and walk away whenever it suits him. He is hardly likely to get to that point within 2 or 3 years. Let's face it, he has us where he wants us for now.

The other side of this coin is that we should be able to apply fan power in the form of open protest. It is true tags the could walk and demand the repayment of all debts, but we don't have the cash so why would he do that??

Another post insists he merely changed his mind over the rumoured rebrand. But the rumours were true!! Also, he has now said Cardiff will always be red. Could he change his mind there too? NOT WITHOUT PRESSURE.


Thanks again for such a clear and succinct explanation.

What no one - including K Morgan and anyone else commenting on this matter - knows is how Mr Tan's corporate interests are structured in terms of tax, inter company loans, external debt and other factors and how Cardiff City fits into this. It is dangerous to make simple assumptions as to what his intentions might be and what his actual options are.

interesting, can you explain some more?

Exactly! The simple assumptions I have made so far in the past 2-3 years have later been shown to be well-founded. I would like to get some insight. ?????

No idea what 'simple assumptions' you have made over the past 2-3 years so I couldn't have a view on whether they are well founded or not.

As to the matters to which I referred, you have things such as tax losses which can be offset against profits elsewhere and carried forward over time. So for example, I can have one trading company that's making a trading loss and set that off against profits elsewhere but I still have a book value for the assets of that trading company. How do his UK investments fit into his Malaysian interests accounting and otherwise? Is there a a currency play?This is the sort of thing that clever accountants and tax lawyers get involved with.It will influence strategy.
I have no idea how it's set up and I suspect neither do you, Annis, K Morgan or anyone else on this board.

Very good. Thanks for that explanation.

However, as you admitted, you have no idea how his full portfolio is set up so I venture to say you know no more than I for certain.

What is clear, though, is that he can't be trusted with our club identity and the assumptions I have made in terms of his behaviour have been pretty much spot-on. I don't blame him for wanting a return on his investment, but what I am saying is that on past experience, he is unlikely to fulfil his promise to convert debts to equity.

The explanation at the top of this thread, while it doesn't take into account international differences in tax, profit and loss across Tan's empire, does give a fairly factual run-down of factors and scenarios.

If you can do better, try, but your attempt , too, will be riddled with conjecture because you know little more than the rest of us.

It's all very well trying to be clever, but to do that, you need to give an improved model.

simply pointing out that in any modelling there will be unknowns and -with respect -the many unknowns constitute potentially quite important omissions from Morgan's analysis.' In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eye'd man is King.'

As to Tan's promises, well we'll have to wait and see but as far as I am aware,

I think you'll find the saying is: "In the LAND of the blind..... Etc"., but no matter eh?

I appreciate your attempts to patronise many of the discussions taking place, but simply adding depth to an analysis without any meaningful outcomes is just being pedantic.

I suggest that those who have two healthy eyes use them both to look objectively at where we were 3 years ago and where we will be shortly.

i dont see pointing out that the opening post is taking lots for granted as facts..that are not facts..is being pedantic......
lots of the OP is opinion...........and where WE are now compared to 3 years ago?..well the club that WE support but do not own shows larger debts than it did.......like most clubs......our debt is owed to our owner,that may be a good thing..maybe a bad thing......

At the risk of repeating myself, thank you for starting this thread and for presenting some of the scenarios in a way most can understand.