NELSON MANDELA

Nobody should be forgiven for this:

http://www.censorbugbear.org/black-raci ... ing-record

I will admit, he was a great man during his post prison days but like he himself said, he was flawed.

Judge him on his whole 95 years, not just his post prison days.

Craig did seriously just compare Mandela to Bin Laden?



What are your views on Bush And Blair?

Yes I did. They both murdered innocent people in the name of an ideology. Just because I agree wirh Mandelas ideology doesnt make it right.

I hate Bush and Blair.

In the last to quotes you have mentioned the words "I Hate" and "I cannot forget"
His last remaining words were of peace and understanding, your here stating Hate and non forgiveness...

So his last words were of peace and understanding. Therefore we should forget the people murdered on his orders?

Quite the opposite actually Craig...

However we who live in a glass house should not throw stones.

Craig did seriously just compare Mandela to Bin Laden?



What are your views on Bush And Blair?

Yes I did. They both murdered innocent people in the name of an ideology. Just because I agree wirh Mandelas ideology doesnt make it right.

I hate Bush and Blair.

In the last to quotes you have mentioned the words "I Hate" and "I cannot forget"
His last remaining words were of peace and understanding, your here stating Hate and non forgiveness...

So his last words were of peace and understanding. Therefore we should forget the people murdered on his orders?

Quite the opposite actually Craig...

However we who live in a glass house should not throw stones.

I havent murdered anybody thanks.

Craig did seriously just compare Mandela to Bin Laden?



What are your views on Bush And Blair?

Yes I did. They both murdered innocent people in the name of an ideology. Just because I agree wirh Mandelas ideology doesnt make it right.

I hate Bush and Blair.

In the last to quotes you have mentioned the words "I Hate" and "I cannot forget"
His last remaining words were of peace and understanding, your here stating Hate and non forgiveness...

So his last words were of peace and understanding. Therefore we should forget the people murdered on his orders?

Quite the opposite actually Craig...

However we who live in a glass house should not throw stones.

I havent murdered anybody thanks.

You preach that he was head of a group that killed at his command.
Yet we as Brits have watched our leaders commit far more greater atrocities than anything Madiba did.

Craig did seriously just compare Mandela to Bin Laden?



What are your views on Bush And Blair?

Yes I did. They both murdered innocent people in the name of an ideology. Just because I agree wirh Mandelas ideology doesnt make it right.

I hate Bush and Blair.

In the last to quotes you have mentioned the words "I Hate" and "I cannot forget"
His last remaining words were of peace and understanding, your here stating Hate and non forgiveness...

So his last words were of peace and understanding. Therefore we should forget the people murdered on his orders?

Quite the opposite actually Craig...

However we who live in a glass house should not throw stones.

I havent murdered anybody thanks.

You preach that he was head of a group that killed at his command.
Yet we as Brits have watched our leaders commit far more greater atrocities than anything Madiba did.

Your point is?

Nowhere have I said I agree with what we have done. Yet you condemn Brits and praise Mandela????

I dont choose what my government do. Mandela chose to order those bombs.

My point is.. "We who live in glass houses should not throw stones".
You took that as a personal dig, when it was a simple remark of our history.

I haven't condemned anyone.
I haven't praised anyone.

I have paid my respects to a man I feel deserved them.
I don't judge people based on one idea or notion, simply because ideas and notions change through time. As Madiba changed through time, he never denied what he has done, but it is a testament to the man that many remember him for not the wrongs he has done but the work he did to correct those wrongs.

In this day and age its easy to hate,harder to accept and forgive.

My point is.. "We who live in glass houses should not throw stones".
You took that as a personal dig, when it was a simple remark of our history.

I haven't condemned anyone.
I haven't praised anyone.

I have paid my respects to a man I feel deserved them.
I don't judge people based on one idea or notion, simply because ideas and notions change through time. As Madiba changed through time, he never denied what he has done, but it is a testament to the man that many remember him for not the wrongs he has done but the work he did to correct those wrongs.

In this day and age its easy to hate,harder to accept and forgive.

Most people dont realise what Mandela was pre incarcaration.

Do you think the families of the bombing victims accept and forgive him?

My point is.. "We who live in glass houses should not throw stones".
You took that as a personal dig, when it was a simple remark of our history.

I haven't condemned anyone.
I haven't praised anyone.

I have paid my respects to a man I feel deserved them.
I don't judge people based on one idea or notion, simply because ideas and notions change through time. As Madiba changed through time, he never denied what he has done, but it is a testament to the man that many remember him for not the wrongs he has done but the work he did to correct those wrongs.

In this day and age its easy to hate,harder to accept and forgive.

Most people dont realise what Mandela was pre incarcaration.

Do you think the families of the bombing victims accept and forgive him?

read something rather uncomfortable on facebook last night. A woman with a hsitory degree thinking she knew better than a girl whose family home had been bombed. i think she ended it by saying "the news doesnt lie"

"I was made, by the law, a criminal, not because of what I had done, but because of what I stood for, because of what I thought, because of my conscience.” (Statement during trial, 1962)


I do not know that answer Craig, but neither do you.
You like me, base you views on an assumption of the matter.
We live in a different world to what they have endured.


So I have to ask if you had no respect for the man, why come and comment on a section where people are paying their respects?

"I was made, by the law, a criminal, not because of what I had done, but because of what I stood for, because of what I thought, because of my conscience.” (Statement during trial, 1962)


I do not know that answer Craig, but neither do you.
You like me, base you views on an assumption of the matter.
We live in a different world to what they have endured.


So I have to ask if you had no respect for the man, why come and comment on a section where people are paying their respects?

So murdering people is only against the law because of what he believed?

Murder is murder and there is no justification however you try to sugarcoat it. Quite frankly the fact you try to is sickening.

Just because he was anti aparteid doesnt make him worthy of this pedastel. As head of the MK, the terrorist wing of the ANC, he personally sanctioned the murder of hundreds of innocent civilians via terrorist bombing campaigns. These are actions he himself has admitted and imprisoned for.

There is no bigger terrorist than the British Crown and that is world wide

I am not sugarcoating anything.

But I'm not the one passing judgment either.

Just because he was anti aparteid doesnt make him worthy of this pedastel. As head of the MK, the terrorist wing of the ANC, he personally sanctioned the murder of hundreds of innocent civilians via terrorist bombing campaigns. These are actions he himself has admitted and imprisoned for.

There is no bigger terrorist than the British Crown and that is world wide

There is but I know what you're saying and to a point I agree.

Still doesn't detract from the fact Mandela WAS a terrorist for a fair few years.

I am not sugarcoating anything.

But I'm not the one passing judgment either.

You have judged him and judged him in a positive light without acknowledging all the facts. Privileged to have lived at the same time as this great man????

I am not sugarcoating anything.

But I'm not the one passing judgment either.

You have judged him and judged him in a positive light without acknowledging all the facts. Privileged to have lived at the same time as this great man????

Sorry Craig but with all due respect mate do not under any circumstances attempt to assume what I have or haven't done.
I made a comment on what I believe was a great man.
If you feel otherwise then that's your choice.

He did the crime, he also did the time.

You chose not to forgive, not everyone is like you. Just because some people accept and forgive you feel they don't know the whole story . So again please do not make assumptions of others.

I am not sugarcoating anything.

But I'm not the one passing judgment either.

You have judged him and judged him in a positive light without acknowledging all the facts. Privileged to have lived at the same time as this great man????

Sorry Craig but with all due respect mate do not under any circumstances attempt to assume what I have or haven't done.
I made a comment on what I believe was a great man.
If you feel otherwise then that's your choice.

He did the crime, he also did the time.

You chose not to forgive, not everyone is like you. Just because some people accept and forgive you feel they don't know the whole story . So again please do not make assumptions of others.

I did not say you did not know the whole story. I said you failed to acknowledge all the facts, which is true.

I also said many people don't know the whole story, which again is true.

27 years for murdering that many people is not doing the time.

Just because he was anti aparteid doesnt make him worthy of this pedastel. As head of the MK, the terrorist wing of the ANC, he personally sanctioned the murder of hundreds of innocent civilians via terrorist bombing campaigns. These are actions he himself has admitted and imprisoned for.

There is no bigger terrorist than the British Crown and that is world wide

There is but I know what you're saying and to a point I agree.

Still doesn't detract from the fact Mandela WAS a terrorist for a fair few years.

Mandela fought rightly against the Afrikaner interests such as segregation of the two separate white groups the Dutch and British. He fought against white domination and apartheid, perhaps you should read "Long Walk to Freedom", its far more justified than any leader of this country as far back as 1721

I did not say you did not know the whole story. I said you failed to acknowledge all the facts, which is true.

How is this true? Without making an assumption?

I also said many people don't know the whole story, which again is true.

Against another assumption.



27 years for murdering that many people is not doing the time.
What would be the justice in your eyes?
"That Many" what number is that exactly?

I did not say you did not know the whole story. I said you failed to acknowledge all the facts, which is true.

How is this true? Without making an assumption?

I also said many people don't know the whole story, which again is true.

Against another assumption.



27 years for murdering that many people is not doing the time.
What would be the justice in your eyes?
"That Many" what number is that exactly?

Easy. You didnt mention his atrocities in your posts, so therefore you have not acknowledged them. That doesnt mean you did not know them, just not acknowledged them.

Many people are either too young to know history or dont care. Thats not your fault but its not an assumption. Its fact.

"He went into a civil war in his country and was held in regard as a type of Martyr. He turned Hate Rage and resentment into a preach of peace love and understanding.
It's east to sit at a computer and hate what you don't really understand, but to spend 25 years in a prison and come out and preach compassion is a whole different league of understanding. "

I would consider that me acknowledging all side of the man.

You chose not to acknowledge that and then went on to compare him with Bin Laden.

A man who never spent a day incarcerated for the crimes he committed.
A man who never attempted to bring peace and understanding.



I do not ignore what he has done,It would be impossible to form an opinion on the man otherwise.
I though accept people are not perfect, they have flaws and can misguided.
But I also know that most would not see that within themselves.
I feel that Nelson did see that within himself.
That is a trait I would respect.

"He went into a civil war in his country and was held in regard as a type of Martyr. He turned Hate Rage and resentment into a preach of peace love and understanding.
It's east to sit at a computer and hate what you don't really understand, but to spend 25 years in a prison and come out and preach compassion is a whole different league of understanding. "

I would consider that me acknowledging all side of the man.

You chose not to acknowledge that and then went on to compare him with Bin Laden.

A man who never spent a day incarcerated for the crimes he committed.
A man who never attempted to bring peace and understanding.



I do not ignore what he has done,It would be impossible to form an opinion on the man otherwise.
I though accept people are not perfect, they have flaws and can misguided.
But I also know that most would not see that within themselves.
I feel that Nelson did see that within himself.
That is a trait I would respect.

I have acknowledged all sides and concluded that post incarceration he was peaceful and should be respected for that. Pre incarceration he was a mass murdering terrorist and just because he done some good things we should all sing his praises. Sorry, he murdered people.

He is comparable to bin laden. They were both terrorists who killed in the name of their ideology. It just so happens as we believe in Mandelas its ok and justified. Well its not.

So one minute you suggest I haven't acknowledged then the next you suggest I have

So one minute you suggest I haven't acknowledged then the next you suggest I have

Read it, I said I have acknowledged

"He went into a civil war in his country and was held in regard as a type of Martyr. He turned Hate Rage and resentment into a preach of peace love and understanding.
It's east to sit at a computer and hate what you don't really understand, but to spend 25 years in a prison and come out and preach compassion is a whole different league of understanding. "

I would consider that me acknowledging all side of the man.

You chose not to acknowledge that and then went on to compare him with Bin Laden.

A man who never spent a day incarcerated for the crimes he committed.
A man who never attempted to bring peace and understanding.



I do not ignore what he has done,It would be impossible to form an opinion on the man otherwise.
I though accept people are not perfect, they have flaws and can misguided.
But I also know that most would not see that within themselves.
I feel that Nelson did see that within himself.
That is a trait I would respect.

I have acknowledged all sides and concluded that post incarceration he was peaceful and should be respected for that. Pre incarceration he was a mass murdering terrorist and just because he done some good things we should all sing his praises. Sorry, he murdered people.

He is comparable to bin laden. They were both terrorists who killed in the name of their ideology. It just so happens as we believe in Mandelas its ok and justified. Well its not.

Is "ideology" a right to vote, a right to be heard, a right to walk free in ones own country.......?

"He went into a civil war in his country and was held in regard as a type of Martyr. He turned Hate Rage and resentment into a preach of peace love and understanding.
It's east to sit at a computer and hate what you don't really understand, but to spend 25 years in a prison and come out and preach compassion is a whole different league of understanding. "

I would consider that me acknowledging all side of the man.

You chose not to acknowledge that and then went on to compare him with Bin Laden.

A man who never spent a day incarcerated for the crimes he committed.
A man who never attempted to bring peace and understanding.



I do not ignore what he has done,It would be impossible to form an opinion on the man otherwise.
I though accept people are not perfect, they have flaws and can misguided.
But I also know that most would not see that within themselves.
I feel that Nelson did see that within himself.
That is a trait I would respect.

I have acknowledged all sides and concluded that post incarceration he was peaceful and should be respected for that. Pre incarceration he was a mass murdering terrorist and just because he done some good things we should all sing his praises. Sorry, he murdered people.

He is comparable to bin laden. They were both terrorists who killed in the name of their ideology. It just so happens as we believe in Mandelas its ok and justified. Well its not.

Is "ideology" a right to vote, a right to be heard, a right to walk free in ones own country.......?

Yes, although it should be a given right, it is not so therefore if its not current law/policy it becomes an ideal.

a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

.

If u think nelson Mandela is a gr8 man then read this.

If u think nelson Mandela is a gr8 man then read this.

read what....

I think id have to lean more towards CraigCCFC's thinking too. Theres no denying, what he did in bringing down the Apartheid saved more lives than they took, it still doesnt make it right. They bombed places and took civilian lives, murdered and executed people, burning tyres round peoples necks and torturing. Pretty dark stuff.

Dunno if its as simple as just saying he's a terrorist because for the majority of his life he wasnt & did do a lot of good.

A one time terrorist who has been elevated to some Jesus like figure. No doubt all the bleeding hearts will be holding a candle and acting as if they were family . His ex wife carried on the tortures, mostly to blacks ! S Africa is now more violent than it was. Nothing's changed. The poor are still poor. The only difference now is the ANC are fatter and drive Mercedes . Just my opinion