Dinosaur fans of Cardiff!

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Blue is not a brand you tw*t ! . It's a football club

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Blue is not a brand you tw*t ! . It's a football club

It's associated as part of the old brand otherwise why is red a rebrand?
Please explain

WANKER VT WILL DO WHAT HE WANTS ---IS THAT WHAT IT WILL TAKE CHANGING OUR NAME TO GET PISSED OFF? COS IT WILL HAPPEN

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Blue is not a brand you tw*t ! . It's a football club

It's associated as part of the old brand otherwise why is red a rebrand?
Please explain

Sorry mate , if you consider the traditional colours of a club as nothing more than a brand me and you are cut from a completely different cloth and will never agree on anything in respect of what is currently happening to our club ( or brand as you / tan refer )

Wish the red fans would come to terms with the fact that there are people who are opposed to the changes, YOU get over it

The vast majority are accepting the changes, possibly reluctantly. As Tan said 75% - 80% for in any business. 20% - 25% dinosaurs
'Get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand' Bob Dylan.

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Blue is not a brand you tw*t ! . It's a football club

It's associated as part of the old brand otherwise why is red a rebrand?
Please explain

Sorry mate , if you consider the traditional colours of a club as nothing more than a brand me and you are cut from a completely different cloth and will never agree on anything in respect of what is currently happening to our club ( or brand as you / tan refer )

I think if you actually check the history of Cardiff city FC est 1899 you will find that traditionally we played in gold and greenand were called riverside FC, therefore te club has gone through a complete rebranding before as well, if you were 100% traditionalist surely you'd be asking tan to put us bak in gold and green? I don't disagree with you about te colour as I too would have preferred nothing to change but history is full of change and acceptance of it in the early 20's we were predominantly a cricket club which completely changed to focus on football colour change name change and badge change, the then owners did this to move the club forward and this is happening again nearly 100 years on, it's no different to back 100 years ago and I'd imagine the supporters back then were in uproar too it's only natural as many people find change hard to deal with I don't like it but willing to accept the fact that changes to financial rules and a club wracked with historical debt needs to move forward with the times or be left behind, take arsenal for example a board reluctant to break its wage caps and spend big transfers so they remain self sufficient they will be a club that benefits massively from this prudence in years to come

Wish the red fans would come to terms with the fact that there are people who are opposed to the changes, YOU get over it

Them fans are not going to change tans mind! The anti red fans can do more damage than good!

Its that dick head Tan who does more harm than good ! Shuffle off back to Malaysia & take your all-conquering flags outta the CCS !!

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Blue is not a brand you tw*t ! . It's a football club

It's associated as part of the old brand otherwise why is red a rebrand?
Please explain

Sorry mate , if you consider the traditional colours of a club as nothing more than a brand me and you are cut from a completely different cloth and will never agree on anything in respect of what is currently happening to our club ( or brand as you / tan refer )

I think if you actually check the history of Cardiff city FC est 1899 you will find that traditionally we played in gold and greenand were called riverside FC, therefore te club has gone through a complete rebranding before as well, if you were 100% traditionalist surely you'd be asking tan to put us bak in gold and green? I don't disagree with you about te colour as I too would have preferred nothing to change but history is full of change and acceptance of it in the early 20's we were predominantly a cricket club which completely changed to focus on football colour change name change and badge change, the then owners did this to move the club forward and this is happening again nearly 100 years on, it's no different to back 100 years ago and I'd imagine the supporters back then were in uproar too it's only natural as many people find change hard to deal with I don't like it but willing to accept the fact that changes to financial rules and a club wracked with historical debt needs to move forward with the times or be left behind, take arsenal for example a board reluctant to break its wage caps and spend big transfers so they remain self sufficient they will be a club that benefits massively from this prudence in years to come

Fully aware we played in a different colour decades before the professional game . A wage cap is a world away from scrapping club colour and replacing a longstanding club crest with a f*cking beer mat and cheesy slogan . I am embarrassed to be a cardiff fan at the moment . We are a laughing stock of uk football and if a name change ever does come about its the likes of you that will have got us to that position.

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Blue is not a brand you tw*t ! . It's a football club

It's associated as part of the old brand otherwise why is red a rebrand?
Please explain

Sorry mate , if you consider the traditional colours of a club as nothing more than a brand me and you are cut from a completely different cloth and will never agree on anything in respect of what is currently happening to our club ( or brand as you / tan refer )

I think if you actually check the history of Cardiff city FC est 1899 you will find that traditionally we played in gold and greenand were called riverside FC, therefore te club has gone through a complete rebranding before as well, if you were 100% traditionalist surely you'd be asking tan to put us bak in gold and green? I don't disagree with you about te colour as I too would have preferred nothing to change but history is full of change and acceptance of it in the early 20's we were predominantly a cricket club which completely changed to focus on football colour change name change and badge change, the then owners did this to move the club forward and this is happening again nearly 100 years on, it's no different to back 100 years ago and I'd imagine the supporters back then were in uproar too it's only natural as many people find change hard to deal with I don't like it but willing to accept the fact that changes to financial rules and a club wracked with historical debt needs to move forward with the times or be left behind, take arsenal for example a board reluctant to break its wage caps and spend big transfers so they remain self sufficient they will be a club that benefits massively from this prudence in years to come

Fully aware we played in a different colour decades before the professional game . A wage cap is a world away from scrapping club colour and replacing a longstanding club crest with a f*cking beer mat and cheesy slogan . I am embarrassed to be a cardiff fan at the moment . We are a laughing stock of uk football and if a name change ever does come about its the likes of you that will have got us to that position.

Once again u have taken what I said out of context, I was talking about arsenals wage cap not a wage cap coming into British football, and yes the crest is atrocious I agree with you on that, I wouldn't say we are the laughing stock either and blaming 'people like me' who are you to judge me? Have I said I agree with a name change? No merely pointing out to you the 'traditionalist' that we have been rebranded before that was my only point, I will not attend matches myself if our current name goes that will be the final straw for me but as for te colour and the crest I can live with it for premier league football, it's what I have dreamed of for years supporting city and some will say sell out but if I go the club will only replace me with Mancs and Liverpool fans, so why shouldn't a loyal supporter like me enjoy watching premiership football I've waited long enough, I will continue to support Cardiff city FC until such a day it is no liner Cardiff city FC! Red blue pink n yellow polka dots if needs be!

Wish the red fans would come to terms with the fact that there are people who are opposed to the changes, YOU get over it

Them fans are not going to change tans mind! The anti red fans can do more damage than good!

Maybe mate but I can't just turn off the way I feel about this matter. I have very passionate views about it and cannot just sweep them under the carpet, this is a football club that has been my number one love for 20 years, it's not just a trip to the cinema as Mr Tan would like to think.

couldnt describe it any better, Ely Boy... SPOT ON

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Blue is not a brand you tw*t ! . It's a football club

.





It's associated as part of the old brand otherwise why is red a rebrand?
Please explain

Sorry mate , if you consider the traditional colours of a club as nothing more than a brand me and you are cut from a completely different cloth and will never agree on anything in respect of what is currently happening to our club ( or brand as you / tan refer )

Fair enough smakerztheredbird

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Blue is not a brand you tw*t ! . It's a football club

.





It's associated as part of the old brand otherwise why is red a rebrand?
Please explain

Sorry mate , if you consider the traditional colours of a club as nothing more than a brand me and you are cut from a completely different cloth and will never agree on anything in respect of what is currently happening to our club ( or brand as you / tan refer )

Fair enough smakerztheredbird

If you say so fella

Wish the red fans would come to terms with the fact that there are people who are opposed to the changes, YOU get over it

Indeed, even if you are in a tiny minority.

Trust me the hatred for the rebrand is bigger than you think. A load of my mates are against it, some banned so not able to show there disgust in the ground, yet. A load of good Cardiff lads I know are dead against it, proper old school Cardiff City fans who bleed blue.

A lot of sense Ely Boy, that's coming from a Now rebranded Green Irish Llanedeyrn boy. Ps I don't like spuds.......I love BLUE

Lets just roll over then. Its people like that why evil and manipulative people like Hitler got their way for so long. They believed the nonsense and the stories and took it all at face value instead of delving deeper into his real motives. By the time it all kicked in it was too late, everything was in action.

If our ancestors had the same attitude as the majority of City fans we'd all be speaking German now.

You are an extremely stupid little boy and have no idea. Speak to Jewish communities and then compare VT to hitler.

I thought this was a thread about Dan Yr Ogofs display.
I feel cheated.
I like dinosaurs.

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Nothing to do with colour or the blue brand you f*cking clown, we've just been shit at football

Ely boy, you know me from [past and as you said all city fans i know who been supporting the
club for a longtime are totally asgainst the re-brand, i still go doown but enjoy the away game
more (most of us always have) , the home game are terrible.

the heart has been ripped out of the club, the other tuesday watching every one wearing red febbies
was embarrassing, as i said if they give black and white scarfs as freebies i am sure they would of been
picked up as well.

as much as i hate the jacks, in prem, win cup, and no re-brand ?.

Alright Spikey mate. Hope things are ok with you. Yeah it's unrecognisable as a club at the moment mate. Cardiff City my arse

I hold my head in disbelief with some of our lot.....


It really is just buying a cinema ticket to some, as dispassionate as that..

Wish the red fans would come to terms with the fact that there are people who are opposed to the changes, YOU get over it

Them fans are not going to change tans mind! The anti red fans can do more damage than good!

Maybe mate but I can't just turn off the way I feel about this matter. I have very passionate views about it and cannot just sweep them under the carpet, this is a football club that has been my number one love for 20 years, it's not just a trip to the cinema as Mr Tan would like to think.

couldnt describe it any better, Ely Boy... SPOT ON

Cheers Stef, hope you're well. You're German and you understand the heritage of the club more than some so called proud Cardiffians.

I hold my head in disbelief with some of our lot.....


It really is just buying a cinema ticket to some, as dispassionate as that..

Exactly pal I am genuinely embarrassed to be a city fan at the moment .

I hold my head in disbelief with some of our lot.....


It really is just buying a cinema ticket to some, as dispassionate as that..

Exactly pal I am genuinely embarrassed to be a city fan at the moment .

Amen to that.

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Nothing to do with colour or the blue brand you f*cking clown, we've just been shit at football

Yes we haven't been great but football is all about revenue, we haven't generated enough to service out spending the whole point of the rebrand is to make us commercially viable, tan has opened the door to a possible commercial windfall for years to come without the extra revenue we cannot increase wages in the prem by more than four percent a year unless revenue streams increase, so the clubs that will continue to be competitive will be the ones with strong financial models, hence my point about arsenal and the fact they will already comply with FairPlay rules which will only get tougher in years down the line, as long as we are financially stable not bothered if we play in red blue or pink and yellow polka dots only a name change will end my association with ccfc!

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Nothing to do with colour or the blue brand you f*cking clown, we've just been shit at football

Yes we haven't been great but football is all about revenue, we haven't generated enough to service out spending the whole point of the rebrand is to make us commercially viable, tan has opened the door to a possible commercial windfall for years to come without the extra revenue we cannot increase wages in the prem by more than four percent a year unless revenue streams increase, so the clubs that will continue to be competitive will be the ones with strong financial models, hence my point about arsenal and the fact they will already comply with FairPlay rules which will only get tougher in years down the line, as long as we are financially stable not bothered if we play in red blue or pink and yellow polka dots only a name change will end my association with ccfc!

That's fair enough mate and you are entitled to your views, I apologise for the language, no need for it. I don't personally agree and if that is way football is going then I am out.

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Nothing to do with colour or the blue brand you f*cking clown, we've just been shit at football

Yes we haven't been great but football is all about revenue, we haven't generated enough to service out spending the whole point of the rebrand is to make us commercially viable, tan has opened the door to a possible commercial windfall for years to come without the extra revenue we cannot increase wages in the prem by more than four percent a year unless revenue streams increase, so the clubs that will continue to be competitive will be the ones with strong financial models, hence my point about arsenal and the fact they will already comply with FairPlay rules which will only get tougher in years down the line, as long as we are financially stable not bothered if we play in red blue or pink and yellow polka dots only a name change will end my association with ccfc!

That's fair enough mate and you are entitled to your views, I apologise for the language, no need for it. I don't personally agree and if that is way football is going then I am out.

For those arguing there is no benefit to red they will eventually be proved wrong, Cardiff city playing in blue as a brand has failed monumentally for years and unable to service it's growing debt, failing companies must try and move with the times and football is no different with further and further financial regulations set to come into force over next 5-10 years many clubs that haven't adapted there business models to increase revenue streams will find themselves in severe trouble and face points deductions transfer embargoes and liquidation once we hit the prem debt wiped to equity and the build up of the new brand grows we will be able to sustain ourselves year on year clubs with strong models will succeed in future an that is what tan is tryin to build, I would love us to be playing in blue but if red brings in £10-15m more revenue from the Far East in a few years time then the decision will be justified there is a bigger picture to the rebrand and if it is successful in helping us stay in the premier league and become self sustaining it will be justified, time will tell but coming from a financial background and business background I can see the reasons behind it

Nothing to do with colour or the blue brand you f*cking clown, we've just been shit at football

Yes we haven't been great but football is all about revenue, we haven't generated enough to service out spending the whole point of the rebrand is to make us commercially viable, tan has opened the door to a possible commercial windfall for years to come without the extra revenue we cannot increase wages in the prem by more than four percent a year unless revenue streams increase, so the clubs that will continue to be competitive will be the ones with strong financial models, hence my point about arsenal and the fact they will already comply with FairPlay rules which will only get tougher in years down the line, as long as we are financially stable not bothered if we play in red blue or pink and yellow polka dots only a name change will end my association with ccfc!

That's fair enough mate and you are entitled to your views, I apologise for the language, no need for it. I don't personally agree and if that is way football is going then I am out.

So good I said it three times

KEEP TELLING YOURSELVES THE NAME WILL CHANGE TO THE DRAGONS. STILL GOT SOMETHING TO MOAN ABOUT.

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KEEP TELLING YOURSELVES THE NAME WILL CHANGE TO THE DRAGONS. STILL GOT SOMETHING TO MOAN ABOUT.

Plenty to moan about regardless if name change or not thanks pal . Gay dragon too

Wish the dinosaur fans of Cardiff stopped worrying about what's happening off the pitch and focus on Malky and the boys! We are now red and not blue! Get over it! It's just the odd minority stopping us moving forward! Get a reality check! Untill the mad idea of tan changing our name, then that's a different matter!

The new breed like this one really don't understand

So is the op saying that you are a dinosaur if you would prefer to play in Blue and keep the Bluebird.?
Because I am convinced that given the choice that a least 95% of our fans would want to play in Blue. IMO the whole rebrand has been badly handled and if there had been consultation with the supporters groups the whole sorry mess and the divisions it has caused could have been avoided. We could have had a compromise with a fusion of red and blue and Wales and Malaysia which I think would have been acceptable to the majority of fans. Because I don't care how much money you spend you cant just ride roughshod over years of tradition and fans felings While I appreciate what VT has put into the Club don't tell me we wouldn't be in exactly the same position in the league if we played in Blue? Against Brighton the stadium looked terrible and it didn't feel like the City I love.
I love the City too much to walk away and was at Middlesbrough today so dont call me a dinosaur for wanting to preserve our identity but maybe I sm one of the 25% that Tan is not concerned about and the 40 plus years I have supported the Club doesn't matter? ???
I