THE LEEDS SITUATION AND THE TRUST

Hi Kieth,

As a fan that doesn't belong to SSCS or CCST, I'd like to mirror Gwyn's point that I don't feel the trust advertise what they do enough.

To me and many others, it appears that the trust does very little (which doesn't appear to be the case) and therefore membership is pointless.

If the trust were a little more vocal with what they did, there would be more interest and surely a rise in membership too, making the trust stronger.

Just some thoughts!

Hi Kieth,

As a fan that doesn't belong to SSCS or CCST, I'd like to mirror Gwyn's point that I don't feel the trust advertise what they do enough.

To me and many others, it appears that the trust does very little (which doesn't appear to be the case) and therefore membership is pointless.

If the trust were a little more vocal with what they did, there would be more interest and surely a rise in membership too, making the trust stronger.

Just some thoughts!

I think your criticism is fair - we don`t publicise the work we do behind the scenes anywhere near enough.

Recently we have been instrumental in pushing forward the issue of safe standing through our strong links with politicians and Supporters Direct. We brought a physical example of the rail seating system to Cardiff to show the club , those politicians and other interested parties such as safety officials. This was advertised on the Trust website and messageboards at the time.

We were also specifically approached to comment on and contribute to the UK government debate paper to provide guidance to the FA and Football League on supporter representation at football clubs and on the issue of Financial Fair Play with our comments being incorporated into the final paper.This was again advertised on our website.

So we have been influential at national level with people who will actually have the power to effect change in these areas rather than just "sounding off" at local level. Maybe we should have done both.

At a local level we have got local ethnic communities that have had no history in coming to City games (largely because of a misconception that it is still a hooligan based and/or racist environment at the new stadium). As a result several of those invited (with the great assistance of the club in providing some free match tickets) have since returned as regular fans.We took that approach in the belief that it was more beneficial than "preaching to the converted" in pushing sectors that already have a CCFC fanbase in their midst.People like Gwyn don`t believe that this is the job of the Trust to invite Somalis or Muslims (his words) to games for this purpose and he is perfectly entitled to his views - I just don`t happen to agree with them.

The communities involvement will continue this season to involve disadvantaged groups as well as ethic groups to improve further the club`s reputation in the communities it serves.

As you are aware the Trust was instrumental in getting the Keenor Statue project up running and completed by a number of initiatives and helping galvanise the fan base to assist so it became something "by the fans for the fans".

We also got the Memorial Garden off the ground (no pun intended) with hard cash and continue to work with the club on further improvements to it.

Also locally , we got stadium catering prices reduced when the stadium first opened (I still think they are too high) by putting pressure on Compass Group , who control this rather than the club.

More recently , we have got the club to agree to install additional seating (blue for those involved in the rebranding debate) in the concourse areas for those physically less able to be able to enjoy their pre-match refreshments in greater comfort. These will be in place before the Leicester game (some on here have criticised this).

We are now close to agreeing with the club (they have already agreed with us in principle) the practicalities of fan groups being allowed to bring their flags into the stadium and having them proudly hanging on display on match days as an attempt to contribute the match day atmosphere.

Just a few examples off the top of my head - there have been more.

The Trust is far from perfect. I certainly have made wrong decisions with the benefit of hindsight in trying to please all of the people all of the time. But I can categorically state that all of us on the board who give up many hours a month of our free time for no financial reward whatsoever do so with the sole aim of doing our best for the fans of CCFC. Because we are all fans ourselves , many of several decades standing.

Justified criticism of what we do is fair and justified. But some on here do so based on false claims and inaccuracies or out of ignorance which is frustrating and annoying.

Interestingly , some of the Trust`s harshest critics (mainly to be found on this messageboard) have been invited to join the Trust and stand for democratic election to the Trust board but have declined to do so. An example of being willing to criticise those "who do" rather than being willing to do anything themselves? Or perhaps a reluctance to be involved in something that is democratic (he who shouts loudest doesn`t get his own way if outvoted) or constrained by a proper constitution set by law.

Keith

Thanks for your reply. I considered joining the trust before, but never got round to it. I do think a more publicised trust would gain a lot of new members.

Hi Kieth,

As a fan that doesn't belong to SSCS or CCST, I'd like to mirror Gwyn's point that I don't feel the trust advertise what they do enough.

To me and many others, it appears that the trust does very little (which doesn't appear to be the case) and therefore membership is pointless.

If the trust were a little more vocal with what they did, there would be more interest and surely a rise in membership too, making the trust stronger.

Just some thoughts!

I think your criticism is fair - we don`t publicise the work we do behind the scenes anywhere near enough.

Recently we have been instrumental in pushing forward the issue of safe standing through our strong links with politicians and Supporters Direct. We brought a physical example of the rail seating system to Cardiff to show the club , those politicians and other interested parties such as safety officials. This was advertised on the Trust website and messageboards at the time.

We were also specifically approached to comment on and contribute to the UK government debate paper to provide guidance to the FA and Football League on supporter representation at football clubs and on the issue of Financial Fair Play with our comments being incorporated into the final paper.This was again advertised on our website.

So we have been influential at national level with people who will actually have the power to effect change in these areas rather than just "sounding off" at local level. Maybe we should have done both.

At a local level we have got local ethnic communities that have had no history in coming to City games (largely because of a misconception that it is still a hooligan based and/or racist environment at the new stadium). As a result several of those invited (with the great assistance of the club in providing some free match tickets) have since returned as regular fans.We took that approach in the belief that it was more beneficial than "preaching to the converted" in pushing sectors that already have a CCFC fanbase in their midst.People like Gwyn don`t believe that this is the job of the Trust to invite Somalis or Muslims (his words) to games for this purpose and he is perfectly entitled to his views - I just don`t happen to agree with them.

The communities involvement will continue this season to involve disadvantaged groups as well as ethic groups to improve further the club`s reputation in the communities it serves.

As you are aware the Trust was instrumental in getting the Keenor Statue project up running and completed by a number of initiatives and helping galvanise the fan base to assist so it became something "by the fans for the fans".

We also got the Memorial Garden off the ground (no pun intended) with hard cash and continue to work with the club on further improvements to it.

Also locally , we got stadium catering prices reduced when the stadium first opened (I still think they are too high) by putting pressure on Compass Group , who control this rather than the club.

More recently , we have got the club to agree to install additional seating (blue for those involved in the rebranding debate) in the concourse areas for those physically less able to be able to enjoy their pre-match refreshments in greater comfort. These will be in place before the Leicester game (some on here have criticised this).

We are now close to agreeing with the club (they have already agreed with us in principle) the practicalities of fan groups being allowed to bring their flags into the stadium and having them proudly hanging on display on match days as an attempt to contribute the match day atmosphere.

Just a few examples off the top of my head - there have been more.

The Trust is far from perfect. I certainly have made wrong decisions with the benefit of hindsight in trying to please all of the people all of the time. But I can categorically state that all of us on the board who give up many hours a month of our free time for no financial reward whatsoever do so with the sole aim of doing our best for the fans of CCFC. Because we are all fans ourselves , many of several decades standing.

Justified criticism of what we do is fair and justified. But some on here do so based on false claims and inaccuracies or out of ignorance which is frustrating and annoying.

Interestingly , some of the Trust`s harshest critics (mainly to be found on this messageboard) have been invited to join the Trust and stand for democratic election to the Trust board but have declined to do so. An example of being willing to criticise those "who do" rather than being willing to do anything themselves? Or perhaps a reluctance to be involved in something that is democratic (he who shouts loudest doesn`t get his own way if outvoted) or constrained by a proper constitution set by law.

Keith

Thanks for the post.

It's great to read a well thought out post with plenty of information. I for one think the Trust is doing a great job. It certainly beats those that sit back and complain.

I think your criticism is fair - we don`t publicise the work we do behind the scenes anywhere near enough.

Recently we have been instrumental in pushing forward the issue of safe standing through our strong links with politicians and Supporters Direct. We brought a physical example of the rail seating system to Cardiff to show the club, those politicians and other interested parties such as safety officials. This was advertised on the Trust website and messageboards at the time.

We were also specifically approached to comment on and contribute to the UK government debate paper to provide guidance to the FA and Football League on supporter representation at football clubs and on the issue of Financial Fair Play with our comments being incorporated into the final paper. This was again advertised on our website.

So we have been influential at national level with people who will actually have the power to effect change in these areas rather than just "sounding off" at local level. Maybe we should have done both.

At a local level we have got local ethnic communities that have had no history in coming to City games (largely because of a misconception that it is still a hooligan based and/or racist environment at the new stadium). As a result several of those invited (with the great assistance of the club in providing some free match tickets) have since returned as regular fans. We took that approach in the belief that it was more beneficial than "preaching to the converted" in pushing sectors that already have a CCFC fan base in their midst. People like Gwyn don`t believe that this is the job of the Trust to invite Somalis or Muslims (his words) to games for this purpose and he is perfectly entitled to his views - I just don`t happen to agree with them.

The communities involvement will continue this season to involve disadvantaged groups as well as ethic groups to improve further the club`s reputation in the communities it serves.

As you are aware the Trust was instrumental in getting the Keenor Statue project up running and completed by a number of initiatives and helping galvanise the fan base to assist so it became something "by the fans for the fans".

We also got the Memorial Garden off the ground (no pun intended) with hard cash and continue to work with the club on further improvements to it.

Also locally, we got stadium catering prices reduced when the stadium first opened (I still think they are too high) by putting pressure on Compass Group, who control this rather than the club.

More recently, we have got the club to agree to install additional seating (blue for those involved in the rebranding debate) in the concourse areas for those physically less able to be able to enjoy their pre-match refreshments in greater comfort. These will be in place before the Leicester game (some on here have criticised this).

We are now close to agreeing with the club (they have already agreed with us in principle) the practicalities of fan groups being allowed to bring their flags into the stadium and having them proudly hanging on display on match days as an attempt to contribute the match day atmosphere.

Just a few examples off the top of my head - there have been more.

The Trust is far from perfect. I certainly have made wrong decisions with the benefit of hindsight in trying to please all of the people all of the time. But I can categorically state that all of us on the board who give up many hours a month of our free time for no financial reward whatsoever do so with the sole aim of doing our best for the fans of CCFC. Because we are all fans ourselves, many of several decades standing.

Justified criticism of what we do is fair and justified. But some on here do so based on false claims and inaccuracies or out of ignorance which is frustrating and annoying.

Interestingly, some of the Trust`s harshest critics (mainly to be found on this messageboard) have been invited to join the Trust and stand for democratic election to the Trust board but have declined to do so. An example of being willing to criticise those "who do" rather than being willing to do anything themselves? Or perhaps a reluctance to be involved in something that is democratic (he who shouts loudest doesn`t get his own way if outvoted) or constrained by a proper constitution set by law.

Keith

Let's start with the good stuff.

It is highly commendable that CCST have been involved with the safe standing issue and financial fair play regulation at a very high national level. Indeed it is something we should all take pride in that this club is leading the way for a better financial future for the game in general, as well as bringing a bit of soul back into our 21st Century stadiums by exhibiting how standing supporters can be accommodated.

Therefore your point that the ‘Trust’ is very active is well made.

However, as you have admitted the Trust doesn’t blow its own trumpet enough and sometimes I think that’s because the causes you take up are not ones which would get the juices of the average Cardiff fan running and that is why the apathy which surrounds the Trust exists.

Personally I think Gwyn made a good point about the Leeds game. Your reply would have come over a lot better had you just pointed out that the Trust HAS made representations to Supporters Direct and LUST. I think most fair minded fans would have accepted that explanation and understood this issue is something which will take time to resolve and probably next season we would have been treated far better by Leeds.

Making petty remarks about statistics on how many Trust members travel away is never going to impress anyone. Indeed Gwyn could quite rightly ask how many fans read the Trust website. That would also be a petty remark and ultimately gets us nowhere.

I would also in a constructive way point out that the Trust’s thinking on “preaching to the converted” also needs to be addressed. No-one is saying you can’t reach out to new possible fan bases, but never take the existing one for granted. In the same way natural Labour supporters (like me) deserted them in the 2010 election (mainly over the immigration issue my I add) the same thing seems to be happening to you.

The existing members (or ex- members) would have paid hard cash into the Trust and it then leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth when almost the first thing it does is spend time (& the perception would be money even if it wasn’t spent by the Trust) on courting ethnic minorities instead of standing up to Peter Ridsdale.

So while you might find the criticism of this message board frustrating, the frustration is a 2 way street and we get fed up with the Trust not actually directly doing something in the public light to support the EXISTING fan base on local issues. So Keith for all your good work on other issues they will never connect with the average fan and that is where you are making your ill intentioned mistake.

I think your criticism is fair - we don`t publicise the work we do behind the scenes anywhere near enough.

Recently we have been instrumental in pushing forward the issue of safe standing through our strong links with politicians and Supporters Direct. We brought a physical example of the rail seating system to Cardiff to show the club, those politicians and other interested parties such as safety officials. This was advertised on the Trust website and messageboards at the time.

We were also specifically approached to comment on and contribute to the UK government debate paper to provide guidance to the FA and Football League on supporter representation at football clubs and on the issue of Financial Fair Play with our comments being incorporated into the final paper. This was again advertised on our website.

So we have been influential at national level with people who will actually have the power to effect change in these areas rather than just "sounding off" at local level. Maybe we should have done both.

At a local level we have got local ethnic communities that have had no history in coming to City games (largely because of a misconception that it is still a hooligan based and/or racist environment at the new stadium). As a result several of those invited (with the great assistance of the club in providing some free match tickets) have since returned as regular fans. We took that approach in the belief that it was more beneficial than "preaching to the converted" in pushing sectors that already have a CCFC fan base in their midst. People like Gwyn don`t believe that this is the job of the Trust to invite Somalis or Muslims (his words) to games for this purpose and he is perfectly entitled to his views - I just don`t happen to agree with them.

The communities involvement will continue this season to involve disadvantaged groups as well as ethic groups to improve further the club`s reputation in the communities it serves.

As you are aware the Trust was instrumental in getting the Keenor Statue project up running and completed by a number of initiatives and helping galvanise the fan base to assist so it became something "by the fans for the fans".

We also got the Memorial Garden off the ground (no pun intended) with hard cash and continue to work with the club on further improvements to it.

Also locally, we got stadium catering prices reduced when the stadium first opened (I still think they are too high) by putting pressure on Compass Group, who control this rather than the club.

More recently, we have got the club to agree to install additional seating (blue for those involved in the rebranding debate) in the concourse areas for those physically less able to be able to enjoy their pre-match refreshments in greater comfort. These will be in place before the Leicester game (some on here have criticised this).

We are now close to agreeing with the club (they have already agreed with us in principle) the practicalities of fan groups being allowed to bring their flags into the stadium and having them proudly hanging on display on match days as an attempt to contribute the match day atmosphere.

Just a few examples off the top of my head - there have been more.

The Trust is far from perfect. I certainly have made wrong decisions with the benefit of hindsight in trying to please all of the people all of the time. But I can categorically state that all of us on the board who give up many hours a month of our free time for no financial reward whatsoever do so with the sole aim of doing our best for the fans of CCFC. Because we are all fans ourselves, many of several decades standing.

Justified criticism of what we do is fair and justified. But some on here do so based on false claims and inaccuracies or out of ignorance which is frustrating and annoying.

Interestingly, some of the Trust`s harshest critics (mainly to be found on this messageboard) have been invited to join the Trust and stand for democratic election to the Trust board but have declined to do so. An example of being willing to criticise those "who do" rather than being willing to do anything themselves? Or perhaps a reluctance to be involved in something that is democratic (he who shouts loudest doesn`t get his own way if outvoted) or constrained by a proper constitution set by law.

Keith

Let's start with the good stuff.

It is highly commendable that CCST have been involved with the safe standing issue and financial fair play regulation at a very high national level. Indeed it is something we should all take pride in that this club is leading the way for a better financial future for the game in general, as well as bringing a bit of soul back into our 21st Century stadiums by exhibiting how standing supporters can be accommodated.

Therefore your point that the ‘Trust’ is very active is well made.

However, as you have admitted the Trust doesn’t blow its own trumpet enough and sometimes I think that’s because the causes you take up are not ones which would get the juices of the average Cardiff fan running and that is why the apathy which surrounds the Trust exists.

Personally I think Gwyn made a good point about the Leeds game. Your reply would have come over a lot better had you just pointed out that the Trust HAS made representations to Supporters Direct and LUST. I think most fair minded fans would have accepted that explanation and understood this issue is something which will take time to resolve and probably next season we would have been treated far better by Leeds.

Making petty remarks about statistics on how many Trust members travel away is never going to impress anyone. Indeed Gwyn could quite rightly ask how many fans read the Trust website. That would also be a petty remark and ultimately gets us nowhere.

I would also in a constructive way point out that the Trust’s thinking on “preaching to the converted” also needs to be addressed. No-one is saying you can’t reach out to new possible fan bases, but never take the existing one for granted. In the same way natural Labour supporters (like me) deserted them in the 2010 election (mainly over the immigration issue my I add) the same thing seems to be happening to you.

The existing members (or ex- members) would have paid hard cash into the Trust and it then leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth when almost the first thing it does is spend time (& the perception would be money even if it wasn’t spent by the Trust) on courting ethnic minorities instead of standing up to Peter Ridsdale.

So while you might find the criticism of this message board frustrating, the frustration is a 2 way street and we get fed up with the Trust not actually directly doing something in the public light to support the EXISTING fan base on local issues. So Keith for all your good work on other issues they will never connect with the average fan and that is where you are making your ill intentioned mistake.

I take your comments on board , but a few points of clarification.

I DID point out to Gwyn that the Trust had made the representations you refer to re Leeds.

The point about how many Trust members attend games WAS petty , but was made by Gwyn , suggesting that somehow Trust members don`t attend away games like other fans. I merely responded pointing out there was no foundation to his claim. Trust members are no different to any other fan in their choices of which games they attend or how frequently or whether or not they are also members of the CCSC or any other travel groups.

My "preaching to the converted" point was in respect of attracting NEW fans to CCFC - no point in spending lots of time instead in pursuading fans who come anyway in terms of first priority for new fan gains.

I don`t follow your point at all about Peter Ridsdale and choosing to spend time on courting ethnic minorities instead of standing up to him. Could you explain?

I think your criticism is fair - we don`t publicise the work we do behind the scenes anywhere near enough.

Recently we have been instrumental in pushing forward the issue of safe standing through our strong links with politicians and Supporters Direct. We brought a physical example of the rail seating system to Cardiff to show the club, those politicians and other interested parties such as safety officials. This was advertised on the Trust website and messageboards at the time.

We were also specifically approached to comment on and contribute to the UK government debate paper to provide guidance to the FA and Football League on supporter representation at football clubs and on the issue of Financial Fair Play with our comments being incorporated into the final paper. This was again advertised on our website.

So we have been influential at national level with people who will actually have the power to effect change in these areas rather than just "sounding off" at local level. Maybe we should have done both.

At a local level we have got local ethnic communities that have had no history in coming to City games (largely because of a misconception that it is still a hooligan based and/or racist environment at the new stadium). As a result several of those invited (with the great assistance of the club in providing some free match tickets) have since returned as regular fans. We took that approach in the belief that it was more beneficial than "preaching to the converted" in pushing sectors that already have a CCFC fan base in their midst. People like Gwyn don`t believe that this is the job of the Trust to invite Somalis or Muslims (his words) to games for this purpose and he is perfectly entitled to his views - I just don`t happen to agree with them.

The communities involvement will continue this season to involve disadvantaged groups as well as ethic groups to improve further the club`s reputation in the communities it serves.

As you are aware the Trust was instrumental in getting the Keenor Statue project up running and completed by a number of initiatives and helping galvanise the fan base to assist so it became something "by the fans for the fans".

We also got the Memorial Garden off the ground (no pun intended) with hard cash and continue to work with the club on further improvements to it.

Also locally, we got stadium catering prices reduced when the stadium first opened (I still think they are too high) by putting pressure on Compass Group, who control this rather than the club.

More recently, we have got the club to agree to install additional seating (blue for those involved in the rebranding debate) in the concourse areas for those physically less able to be able to enjoy their pre-match refreshments in greater comfort. These will be in place before the Leicester game (some on here have criticised this).

We are now close to agreeing with the club (they have already agreed with us in principle) the practicalities of fan groups being allowed to bring their flags into the stadium and having them proudly hanging on display on match days as an attempt to contribute the match day atmosphere.

Just a few examples off the top of my head - there have been more.

The Trust is far from perfect. I certainly have made wrong decisions with the benefit of hindsight in trying to please all of the people all of the time. But I can categorically state that all of us on the board who give up many hours a month of our free time for no financial reward whatsoever do so with the sole aim of doing our best for the fans of CCFC. Because we are all fans ourselves, many of several decades standing.

Justified criticism of what we do is fair and justified. But some on here do so based on false claims and inaccuracies or out of ignorance which is frustrating and annoying.

Interestingly, some of the Trust`s harshest critics (mainly to be found on this messageboard) have been invited to join the Trust and stand for democratic election to the Trust board but have declined to do so. An example of being willing to criticise those "who do" rather than being willing to do anything themselves? Or perhaps a reluctance to be involved in something that is democratic (he who shouts loudest doesn`t get his own way if outvoted) or constrained by a proper constitution set by law.

Keith

Let's start with the good stuff.

It is highly commendable that CCST have been involved with the safe standing issue and financial fair play regulation at a very high national level. Indeed it is something we should all take pride in that this club is leading the way for a better financial future for the game in general, as well as bringing a bit of soul back into our 21st Century stadiums by exhibiting how standing supporters can be accommodated.

Therefore your point that the ‘Trust’ is very active is well made.

However, as you have admitted the Trust doesn’t blow its own trumpet enough and sometimes I think that’s because the causes you take up are not ones which would get the juices of the average Cardiff fan running and that is why the apathy which surrounds the Trust exists.

Personally I think Gwyn made a good point about the Leeds game. Your reply would have come over a lot better had you just pointed out that the Trust HAS made representations to Supporters Direct and LUST. I think most fair minded fans would have accepted that explanation and understood this issue is something which will take time to resolve and probably next season we would have been treated far better by Leeds.

Making petty remarks about statistics on how many Trust members travel away is never going to impress anyone. Indeed Gwyn could quite rightly ask how many fans read the Trust website. That would also be a petty remark and ultimately gets us nowhere.

I would also in a constructive way point out that the Trust’s thinking on “preaching to the converted” also needs to be addressed. No-one is saying you can’t reach out to new possible fan bases, but never take the existing one for granted. In the same way natural Labour supporters (like me) deserted them in the 2010 election (mainly over the immigration issue my I add) the same thing seems to be happening to you.

The existing members (or ex- members) would have paid hard cash into the Trust and it then leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth when almost the first thing it does is spend time (& the perception would be money even if it wasn’t spent by the Trust) on courting ethnic minorities instead of standing up to Peter Ridsdale.

So while you might find the criticism of this message board frustrating, the frustration is a 2 way street and we get fed up with the Trust not actually directly doing something in the public light to support the EXISTING fan base on local issues. So Keith for all your good work on other issues they will never connect with the average fan and that is where you are making your ill intentioned mistake.

I take your comments on board , but a few points of clarification.[color=#FF0000][/color]

I DID point out to Gwyn that the Trust had made the representations you refer to re Leeds.
YES, but the point is possibly it would have helped the cause if that this had been passed on to the fans as an update rather than in response to a fans questioning the Trust on whether or not it was active on their behalf in this matter, I know in previous cases the Trust has stated it only acts for it's members, and possibly this where there is some confusion.
The point about how many Trust members attend games WAS petty , but was made by Gwyn , suggesting that somehow Trust members don`t attend away games like other fans. I merely responded pointing out there was no foundation to his claim. Trust members are no different to any other fan in their choices of which games they attend or how frequently or whether or not they are also members of the CCSC or any other travel groups. You must be the only who can, t see the point I was making, what I said was, as an organisation, the CCSC membership contains a higher % of members that travel to away games, because that is of the major attractions in taking out a membership with them, now that isn't, t the case when taking out a Trust membership because they don, t organise away travel, that, s not say some of their members don, t travel, because I know they do, can, t somehow this can be taken as a dig

My "preaching to the converted" point was in respect of attracting NEW fans to CCFC - no point in spending lots of time instead in pursuading fans who come anyway in terms of first priority for new fan gains.

I don`t follow your point at all about Peter Ridsdale and choosing to spend time on courting ethnic minorities instead of standing up to him. Could you explain?