Gay Marriage - Yes or No poll

Can I just point something out? No doubt I'll be labelled "a closet gay" or a member of the "PC Brigade" or some other unfounded and incredibly un-hurtful insult but here it goes.

Humanity is the ONLY species on earth that, where homosexuality can be found, is known to treat those participating in it's practice as "outcasts" or "pariahs". There are currently 1500 species that are known to regularly display homosexual behaviour, and all of those species treat it just as they do heterosexuality.

So can someone please explain to me how homosexuality is unnatural? Based on what I've just said homosexuality is one of the most natural things in the world... I imagine someone will be saying "well just because it's natural for animals it doesn't mean it is for humans"... well no, it doesn't, but humans have strayed so far from what would be considered "natural" human behaviour that half of what we do is unnatural anyway, so by your logic is also incredibly wrong.

Have you ever considered that no other species has been known to exhibit behaviour similar to humans' playing of football? Should that, too, be outlawed?

Some here like to just throw around words and reasons that they have never actually thought deeply about. Words and reasons that are easily deconstructed by anyone with a little bit of gumption.

Can I just point something out? No doubt I'll be labelled "a closet gay" or a member of the "PC Brigade" or some other unfounded and incredibly un-hurtful insult but here it goes.

Humanity is the ONLY species on earth that, where homosexuality can be found, is known to treat those participating in it's practice as "outcasts" or "pariahs". There are currently 1500 species that are known to regularly display homosexual behaviour, and all of those species treat it just as they do heterosexuality.

So can someone please explain to me how homosexuality is unnatural? Based on what I've just said homosexuality is one of the most natural things in the world... I imagine someone will be saying "well just because it's natural for animals it doesn't mean it is for humans"... well no, it doesn't, but humans have strayed so far from what would be considered "natural" human behaviour that half of what we do is unnatural anyway, so by your logic is also incredibly wrong.

Have you ever considered that no other species has been known to exhibit behaviour similar to humans' playing of football? Should that, too, be outlawed?

Some here like to just throw around words and reasons that they have never actually thought deeply about. Words and reasons that are easily deconstructed by anyone with a little bit of gumption.

completely agree, not once have I ever stated homosexuality is unnatural.

Can I just point something out? No doubt I'll be labelled "a closet gay" or a member of the "PC Brigade" or some other unfounded and incredibly un-hurtful insult but here it goes.

Humanity is the ONLY species on earth that, where homosexuality can be found, is known to treat those participating in it's practice as "outcasts" or "pariahs". There are currently 1500 species that are known to regularly display homosexual behaviour, and all of those species treat it just as they do heterosexuality.

So can someone please explain to me how homosexuality is unnatural? Based on what I've just said homosexuality is one of the most natural things in the world... I imagine someone will be saying "well just because it's natural for animals it doesn't mean it is for humans"... well no, it doesn't, but humans have strayed so far from what would be considered "natural" human behaviour that half of what we do is unnatural anyway, so by your logic is also incredibly wrong.

Have you ever considered that no other species has been known to exhibit behaviour similar to humans' playing of football? Should that, too, be outlawed?

Some here like to just throw around words and reasons that they have never actually thought deeply about. Words and reasons that are easily deconstructed by anyone with a little bit of gumption.

completely agree, not once have I ever stated homosexuality is unnatural.

Others have though, just thought I'd put an end to that piece of reasoning.

If you look at male and female physiology you could argue it is unnatural.

If you look at male and female physiology you could argue it is unnatural.

you could also argue if God created all that is on this world, how could anything be unnatural. Though I appreciate the physiology argument is reasonable argument for homosexuality to be unnatural, though I do disagree with it

what a load of rubbish

you havent stated facts at all your whole 'fact' based argument is brought from the same usual drivel people come out with, which just shows a lack of education, no sorry ill retract that a lack of intelligence because despite the many times ive told your wrong, you cling on to your 'facts' like a child clings on to a security blanket.

If you want to defend your freedom of speech, I would suggest you learn the consequence to freedom of speech and that is you are responsible for your words.

If you attack my religion, you attack my beliefs. Which is a very definite show of discrimination which you seem to be so proud of. Ive asked you time and time again not only in this thread but in others to show me proof of how my church discriminates the gay community and you run away because you have no answer. You just spout the same rubbish over and over again.

Now you put a a poster of a clint eastwood quote stating that the sanctity of marriage is an idiotic excuse, well thats a bigoted discriminatory view and doesnt show any sort of equality or respect.

So I would say stop making yourself look stupid and walk away

You seem to be losing your head a bit there, I'd take a breath if I were you.

Why should any religion be exempt from criticism? That's not lack of respect or discrimination, that's questioning and it's questioning that causes progression. (Something that the Catholic Church is hardly familiar with).

I have stated facts. The facts are as follows:

1) The Catholic Church is homophobic.

2) The Catholic Church is mysogynistic.

3)The Catholic church holds responsibility for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people; most notably in South America. Furthermore, Catholicism has blood on its hands from the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race; in which the Catholic church remained all too quiet during Hitler's 'Final solution'.

Moving swiftly on.

You say I 'cling on to my facts like a child clings on to a security blanket' Hilarious! You do realise that all good debate is founded on facts? You do realise that facts are concrete and indisputible? You do realise that this is a conflict between my solid facts and your Catholic bias?

and anyway, what would a religious person know about facts? Hardly your specialist topic is it? In fact, your ENTIRE belief system is based on LACK of facts.

Yes, I am TOTALLY responsible for my words. I'm free to criticise your church, and I will do so openly. If you criticised my athiesm I wouldn't care.

How am I discriminating? I'm stating facts about the history of your church, the systematic child abuse that occurs, and the homophobia and sexism that is so rife within it. Please explain how stating facts is discrimination How am I denying you the right to faith? Or the same rights as everyone else? How odd.

Here's an interesting article you may (or may not) want to read:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... homophobia

The pope – whose own track record on men who sodomize children isn't exactly stellar – meets one of the people whose hateful policies not only provide social cover and justification for that violence but, if enacted, would put state power behind the imprisonment and execution of gay people. Hmmm, interesting.

The Church, it seems, is a bit like a schoolyard bully, needing to pick a scapegoat to demonstrate its ultimate authority. Women have spent the past several centuries serving as that target. Homosexuals are the next in line it seems.

Furthermore, you ask for proof of how your church discriminates against gays and I have provided many answers. You have chosen to ignore these so I'll repeat myself. The Catholic Church refers to gays as, and I quote,

'Disordered and morally evil individuals'.

I rest my case with that quote.

N.B I'll ignore your strange personal attacks on my intelligence as I refuse to sink to your level.

I take it your on repeat, this is exactly the same stuff ive told you that you are incorrect on but hey dont let that get in your way.
If you want to debate something you actually have to acknowledge the other persons point of view and appreciate their explanation but you seem to struggle with that bit.

The Catholic church shouldnt be exempt from criticism far from it, the Catholic church should face such criticism head on, like I have but you wont listen.

I have explained how the catholic church is not homophobic but you will not acknowledge it you just ignore it.

We havent got into discrimination of women or mysogyny (how long did it take you to find that word in the dictionary I wonder) but I can disprove that but I am starting to wonder whats the point because you wont listen to that either.

If you want to talk about facts ive got years of studying my religion behind me im not sure you can say the same.

I dont know how many times I have to explain things to you.

Your quotes are misinterpreted ive already explained this but I will do it again

The Catholic church DOES NOT refer gay people as 'disordered and morally evil individuals', What they are is not disordered or morally evil, the choices they make in life are, the same as any individual homosexual, heterosexual, male or female. If a straight man decides to fornicate (thats sex outside of marriage) his actions will be considered disordered and morally evil. He will have to go to the confessional confess his sins and he will be forgiven.

The Catholic church does not discriminate against women, true, women cannot become priests but they can become nuns if they so choose and their voices are listened to just as a mans voice. Women have a lot of influence within the Catholic church from religious orders and lay groups.

If you want to get into the abortion argument since it was brought up in the article you posted, the Catholic Church and my religion is not concerned with a man or woman its concerned about the protection of the innocent, the innocent being the life growing inside a womans body, let me explain what ever reason you find yourself pregnant an innocent life has been created and has a right to life. So dont see a lot of discrimination there.

As for your Ugandan argument the Church has never given its blessing to execute gay people, despite what a Ugandan politician says but then it wouldnt be the first time weve known a politician to lie to get what they want would it, but if that is the political will in Uganda so be it I have no control over their domestic policies and neither does the Catholic church, they are only about 60 years behind Britain when it made homosexuality illegal and put every known gay man on a sex offenders register and considered every gay man a potential pedophile, thats not a Catholic issue thats a social issue, as ive explained before do not underestimate the influences society has on peoples religious belief or overestimate the influence religion has on society. Its called free will.

How am I incorrect? Please elaborate because after reading your posts you just seem to be arguing against facts about your Church's vile past.

Ha! You haven't taken the criticism 'head on'. That's laughable. You've just whinged about me being a 'bigot' and 'discriminating' against you Please show me where I have discriminated? If not, are you going to retract that statement?

I havent ignored it, I've responded to it with more FACTS. Facts that you choose to ignore.

'How long did it take you to find that word in the dictionary I wonder' Completely udermines your argument. You do realise that comments like this make you appear incredibly dull? Primarily because it shows that YOU had to look it up in the dictionary and clearly find it a 'big' word to understand Mysogyny is hardly a difficult word to get to grips with. (Unless you're a Catholic perhaps).

I thought you had 'years of studying your religion' yet you don't even know their viewpoint on homosexuality?

In a document entitled 'Declaration on Certain Sexual Ethics' published by the Vatican and approved by the Pope, it becomes evident what your Church believes. Homosexuals are described as deprived of their essential and indispensable finality, as being "intrinsically disordered", and able in no case to be approved of.

Disordered.

In a follow up document delivered to all Bishops of the Cathloic Church and approved by the Pope (it's available at www.vatican.va) they said that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.

Immoral.

It continues to say that 'when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent'.

Furthermore, numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered . This was approved by the Pope! It is clearly homophobic.

I'll leave the other topics for now as they're off topic.

I'll enjoy you trying to contend with the facts I have provided that have been approved by the Pope, and prove your church is a homophobic institution.

How has the church talk been slipped in to a shirt lifters topic, this forums bonkers

what a load of rubbish

you havent stated facts at all your whole 'fact' based argument is brought from the same usual drivel people come out with, which just shows a lack of education, no sorry ill retract that a lack of intelligence because despite the many times ive told your wrong, you cling on to your 'facts' like a child clings on to a security blanket.

If you want to defend your freedom of speech, I would suggest you learn the consequence to freedom of speech and that is you are responsible for your words.

If you attack my religion, you attack my beliefs. Which is a very definite show of discrimination which you seem to be so proud of. Ive asked you time and time again not only in this thread but in others to show me proof of how my church discriminates the gay community and you run away because you have no answer. You just spout the same rubbish over and over again.

Now you put a a poster of a clint eastwood quote stating that the sanctity of marriage is an idiotic excuse, well thats a bigoted discriminatory view and doesnt show any sort of equality or respect.

So I would say stop making yourself look stupid and walk away

You seem to be losing your head a bit there, I'd take a breath if I were you.

Why should any religion be exempt from criticism? That's not lack of respect or discrimination, that's questioning and it's questioning that causes progression. (Something that the Catholic Church is hardly familiar with).

I have stated facts. The facts are as follows:

1) The Catholic Church is homophobic.

2) The Catholic Church is mysogynistic.

3)The Catholic church holds responsibility for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people; most notably in South America. Furthermore, Catholicism has blood on its hands from the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race; in which the Catholic church remained all too quiet during Hitler's 'Final solution'.

Moving swiftly on.

You say I 'cling on to my facts like a child clings on to a security blanket' Hilarious! You do realise that all good debate is founded on facts? You do realise that facts are concrete and indisputible? You do realise that this is a conflict between my solid facts and your Catholic bias?

and anyway, what would a religious person know about facts? Hardly your specialist topic is it? In fact, your ENTIRE belief system is based on LACK of facts.

Yes, I am TOTALLY responsible for my words. I'm free to criticise your church, and I will do so openly. If you criticised my athiesm I wouldn't care.

How am I discriminating? I'm stating facts about the history of your church, the systematic child abuse that occurs, and the homophobia and sexism that is so rife within it. Please explain how stating facts is discrimination How am I denying you the right to faith? Or the same rights as everyone else? How odd.

Here's an interesting article you may (or may not) want to read:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... homophobia

The pope – whose own track record on men who sodomize children isn't exactly stellar – meets one of the people whose hateful policies not only provide social cover and justification for that violence but, if enacted, would put state power behind the imprisonment and execution of gay people. Hmmm, interesting.

The Church, it seems, is a bit like a schoolyard bully, needing to pick a scapegoat to demonstrate its ultimate authority. Women have spent the past several centuries serving as that target. Homosexuals are the next in line it seems.

Furthermore, you ask for proof of how your church discriminates against gays and I have provided many answers. You have chosen to ignore these so I'll repeat myself. The Catholic Church refers to gays as, and I quote,

'Disordered and morally evil individuals'.

I rest my case with that quote.

N.B I'll ignore your strange personal attacks on my intelligence as I refuse to sink to your level.

I take it your on repeat, this is exactly the same stuff ive told you that you are incorrect on but hey dont let that get in your way.
If you want to debate something you actually have to acknowledge the other persons point of view and appreciate their explanation but you seem to struggle with that bit.

The Catholic church shouldnt be exempt from criticism far from it, the Catholic church should face such criticism head on, like I have but you wont listen.

I have explained how the catholic church is not homophobic but you will not acknowledge it you just ignore it.

We havent got into discrimination of women or mysogyny (how long did it take you to find that word in the dictionary I wonder) but I can disprove that but I am starting to wonder whats the point because you wont listen to that either.

If you want to talk about facts ive got years of studying my religion behind me im not sure you can say the same.

I dont know how many times I have to explain things to you.

Your quotes are misinterpreted ive already explained this but I will do it again

The Catholic church DOES NOT refer gay people as 'disordered and morally evil individuals', What they are is not disordered or morally evil, the choices they make in life are, the same as any individual homosexual, heterosexual, male or female. If a straight man decides to fornicate (thats sex outside of marriage) his actions will be considered disordered and morally evil. He will have to go to the confessional confess his sins and he will be forgiven.

The Catholic church does not discriminate against women, true, women cannot become priests but they can become nuns if they so choose and their voices are listened to just as a mans voice. Women have a lot of influence within the Catholic church from religious orders and lay groups.

If you want to get into the abortion argument since it was brought up in the article you posted, the Catholic Church and my religion is not concerned with a man or woman its concerned about the protection of the innocent, the innocent being the life growing inside a womans body, let me explain what ever reason you find yourself pregnant an innocent life has been created and has a right to life. So dont see a lot of discrimination there.

As for your Ugandan argument the Church has never given its blessing to execute gay people, despite what a Ugandan politician says but then it wouldnt be the first time weve known a politician to lie to get what they want would it, but if that is the political will in Uganda so be it I have no control over their domestic policies and neither does the Catholic church, they are only about 60 years behind Britain when it made homosexuality illegal and put every known gay man on a sex offenders register and considered every gay man a potential pedophile, thats not a Catholic issue thats a social issue, as ive explained before do not underestimate the influences society has on peoples religious belief or overestimate the influence religion has on society. Its called free will.

How am I incorrect? Please elaborate because after reading your posts you just seem to be arguing against facts about your Church's vile past.

Ha! You haven't taken the criticism 'head on'. That's laughable. You've just whinged about me being a 'bigot' and 'discriminating' against you Please show me where I have discriminated? If not, are you going to retract that statement?

I havent ignored it, I've responded to it with more FACTS. Facts that you choose to ignore.

'How long did it take you to find that word in the dictionary I wonder' Completely udermines your argument. You do realise that comments like this make you appear incredibly dull? Primarily because it shows that YOU had to look it up in the dictionary and clearly find it a 'big' word to understand Mysogyny is hardly a difficult word to get to grips with. (Unless you're a Catholic perhaps).

I thought you had 'years of studying your religion' yet you don't even know their viewpoint on homosexuality?

In a document entitled 'Declaration on Certain Sexual Ethics' published by the Vatican and approved by the Pope, it becomes evident what your Church believes. Homosexuals are described as deprived of their essential and indispensable finality, as being "intrinsically disordered", and able in no case to be approved of.

Disordered.

In a follow up document delivered to all Bishops of the Cathloic Church and approved by the Pope (it's available at http://www.vatican.va) they said that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.

Immoral.

It continues to say that 'when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent'.

Furthermore, numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered . This was approved by the Pope! It is clearly homophobic.

I'll leave the other topics for now as they're off topic.

I'll enjoy you trying to contend with the facts I have provided that have been approved by the Pope, and prove your church is a homophobic institution.

Will you excuse me if im getting tired of this. I dont know how many ways I have to explain this but I will try again.

Homosexuality IS NOT immoral or evil, you are what you are. God made you that way. BEING A HOMOSEXUAL DOES NOT MAKE YOU EVIL. is that clear enough for you.

However the way you live your life can be immoral, its called free will.

Now considering the link youve posted, that was written in 1973 I believe, when society and science realised that homosexuality wasnt a criminal act. They decided that homosexuality was a mental health issue. So when the question was given to the Vatican, how can the Church help these poor ill people within our society. Now the Vatican listening to the scientific knowledge at the time and where science was hell bent on trying to find a cure for homosexuality. The vatican informed the world that morally their acts of homosexuality are intrinsically morally disordered the same as fornication is considered intrinsically morally disordered. Though the Vatican did state and were one of the first to state that homosexual people are not evil and neither should they be cured. I quote 'In Sacred Scripture they are condemned as a serious depravity and even presented as the sad consequence of rejecting God. This judgement of scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of.'

So to explain, the Vatican told the world, that despite the current view by science that homosexuality is a mental illness the Church feels no need to find a cure as this was the way that God has made them and it was natural. They wrote off the guidance of the bible that stated that homosexual people were evil and a sign of rejecting God (something many other christian denominations hold on to even now). However they still denounce homosexual acts as they denounce heterosexual acts. This view was pretty out there at the time and Science dismissed the teachings of the church stating that they knew better and that homosexuality was not natural and we should find a cure.

Kinell

How has the church talk been slipped in to a shirt lifters topic, this forums bonkers

I guess because a lot of the people who are against gay marriage slip in some pseudo-religious reasoning when trying to justify their sick lust for oppression and control.

Homosexuality IS NOT immoral or evil, you are what you are. God made you that way. BEING A HOMOSEXUAL DOES NOT MAKE YOU EVIL. is that clear enough for you.

I am glad you have enough free will to decide this for yourself. Lots of people who describe themselves as religious don't feel the same about this issue (all religions). They also use their religion to justify their feelings, as though they have been led to this conclusion.

Homosexuality IS NOT immoral or evil, you are what you are. God made you that way. BEING A HOMOSEXUAL DOES NOT MAKE YOU EVIL. is that clear enough for you.

I am glad you have enough free will to decide this for yourself. Lots of people who describe themselves as religious don't feel the same about this issue (all religions). They also use their religion to justify their feelings, as though they have been led to this conclusion.

thank you however I cant take all credit for it because it isnt just my personal belief it is what my Church teaches me.