VINCENT TAN ANNOUNCES HIS BUSINESS PLAN

Ummm no my friend. The fact im clearly right, makes me right.

Unless of course you think Swanseas wage bill increased by £9 million in 12 months even though they hardly igned anyone, making them one of the highest payers in the league while paying zero bonuses for promotion

It doesnt take Einstein to work it out does it. Our wage bill is £14 million and we are one of the highest payers in the league... well until Bolton, Wolves et all arrived. Yet you want me to believe Swanseas was £17 million

Can't remember mentioning anything about swanseas wage bill. Nor do I remotely care.
So how did I want you to believe anything? Please explain.

You were alluding to the fact I wasnt right considering the only reason you felt I thought I was is that nobody replied. Ill happily take that as you siding with them until you tell me otherwise.

And until then I will assume you also think Swanseas wage bill was £3 million more than ours in the seaon we were paying 35k to Bellamy and 15 k to Bothroyd and Chopra

Ummm no my friend. The fact im clearly right, makes me right.

Unless of course you think Swanseas wage bill increased by £9 million in 12 months even though they hardly igned anyone, making them one of the highest payers in the league while paying zero bonuses for promotion

It doesnt take Einstein to work it out does it. Our wage bill is £14 million and we are one of the highest payers in the league... well until Bolton, Wolves et all arrived. Yet you want me to believe Swanseas was £17 million

Can't remember mentioning anything about swanseas wage bill. Nor do I remotely care.
So how did I want you to believe anything? Please explain.

You were alluding to the fact I wasnt right considering the only reason you felt I thought I was is that nobody replied. Ill happily take that as you siding with them until you tell me otherwise.

And until then I will assume you also think Swanseas wage bill was £3 million more than ours in the seaon we were paying 35k to Bellamy and 15 k to Bothroyd and Chopra

You assume wrong as I've no idea what their wage bill is and like I've said nor do I care. I alluded to nothing, merely pointing out that just because somebody didn't respond to you in a time you felt was appropriate did not make you right. You could have been debating the weather but the point remains valid. Maybe you should consider why they abandoned you and why you are so desperate to continue your campaign with me now.

So I'm afraid you're wrong on many levels.

So you either think im right, whch you would be correct in thinking.... Think im wrong, and you would clearly be incorrect in thinking - or are impartial to which your deduction that I thought I was right purely on someone not answering me - is wrong. But you cant think im wrong and remain impartial as you have alluded to again with your closing statement.

So which one is it? Swansea the biggest payers in the Championship or not? It well documented anywhere you wish to look so...

If your answer is no, then welcome aboard the 'right train'.

So you either think im right, whch you would be correct in thinking.... Think im wrong, and you would clearly be incorrect in thinking - or are impartial to which your deduction that I thought I was right purely on someone not answering me - is wrong. But you cant think im wrong and remain impartial as you have alluded to again with your closing statement.

So which one is it? Swansea the biggest payers in the Championship or not? It well documented anywhere you wish to look so...

If your answer is no, then welcome aboard the 'right train'.

Not followed the argument and don't even see the point of it. Your last post was basically a load of gibberish so i hope that you are pissed or on something.
I was merely picking you up on you basically talking to yourself and convincing yourself that you're right.

So you either think im right, whch you would be correct in thinking.... Think im wrong, and you would clearly be incorrect in thinking - or are impartial to which your deduction that I thought I was right purely on someone not answering me - is wrong. But you cant think im wrong and remain impartial as you have alluded to again with your closing statement.

So which one is it? Swansea the biggest payers in the Championship or not? It well documented anywhere you wish to look so...

If your answer is no, then welcome aboard the 'right train'.

Apology accepted

So you either think im right, whch you would be correct in thinking.... Think im wrong, and you would clearly be incorrect in thinking - or are impartial to which your deduction that I thought I was right purely on someone not answering me - is wrong. But you cant think im wrong and remain impartial as you have alluded to again with your closing statement.

So which one is it? Swansea the biggest payers in the Championship or not? It well documented anywhere you wish to look so...

If your answer is no, then welcome aboard the 'right train'.

Just for your information , and by way of clarification for other readers of this thread , here are the actual wage figures for the club`s in the Championship season 2010/11 (the most recent figures available) in descending order

MIDDLESBROUGH £36.3M
QPR £29.7M
HULL £21.2M
READING £20.5M
BURNLEY £19.4M
NORWICH £18.4M
SHEFF UTD £18.2M
SWANSEA £17.4M
IPSWICH £17.1M
LEEDS £17.0M
LEICESTER £16.6M
NOTTM FOREST £16.6M
BRISTOL C £15.9M
CARDIFF £15.9M
DERBY £11.6M
C PALACE £9.4M
WATFORD £9.3M
MILLWALL £8.4M
SCUNTHORPE £5.0M

All of the above figures are taken from the audited accounts of the clubs concerned.

I do not have the figures readily to hand for Barnsley ,Coventry , Doncaster , Portsmouth and Preston.

So you either think im right, whch you would be correct in thinking.... Think im wrong, and you would clearly be incorrect in thinking - or are impartial to which your deduction that I thought I was right purely on someone not answering me - is wrong. But you cant think im wrong and remain impartial as you have alluded to again with your closing statement.

So which one is it? Swansea the biggest payers in the Championship or not? It well documented anywhere you wish to look so...

If your answer is no, then welcome aboard the 'right train'.

Just for your information , and by way of clarification for other readers of this thread , here are the actual wage figures for the club`s in the Championship season 2010/11 (the most recent figures available) in descending order

MIDDLESBROUGH £36.3M
QPR £29.7M
HULL £21.2M
READING £20.5M
BURNLEY £19.4M
NORWICH £18.4M
SHEFF UTD £18.2M
SWANSEA £17.4M
IPSWICH £17.1M
LEEDS £17.0M
LEICESTER £16.6M
NOTTM FOREST £16.6M
BRISTOL C £15.9M
CARDIFF £15.9M
DERBY £11.6M
C PALACE £9.4M
WATFORD £9.3M
MILLWALL £8.4M
SCUNTHORPE £5.0M

All of the above figures are taken from the audited accounts of the clubs concerned.

I do not have the figures readily to hand for Barnsley ,Coventry , Doncaster , Portsmouth and Preston.

Again, the figure of £17.4m is distorted by a very large amount paid in bonuses as a result of promotion. If we had lost to Reading, that figure would have been more like £10-11m.

Not sure what all this nonsense was supposed to show apart from footballers get paid too much.

Can someone explain to me why since62 fails to grasp that the figure he keeps quoting includes 'the cost of promotion' i.e £9 million promotion bonuses triggered upon promotion.

Swanseas wage bill in the Championship was £8 million... the average increase is £23 million as was explained pages and pages ago.

Last edited by RoathMagic on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Can someone explain to me why since62 fails to grasp that the figure he keeps quoting includes 'the cost of promotion' i.e £9 million promotion bonuses triggered upon promotion.

Swanseas wage bill in the Championship was £8 million... the average increase is £23 million as was explained pages and pages ago.

I am well able to grasp that the £17.4m figure includes promotion bonuses thanks (even though the figure wasn`t the £9m you claim , but closer to £7m given a "normal" figure of £10m).

I have clearly stated where I get my figures from , but you continuously avoid explaining where your claimed wage bill of £30m for SCFC for 2011/2 comes from - your claim of a "mate" at FAW having access to player contract details and providing that confidential information to you doesn`t hold a lot of water

1) does he exist?

2) if he does , is he going to risk his job by passing on confidential information to you? The FAW are very touchy about such things.

3) if he is willing to do so , the information he would have would be limited to info. in an individual contract , including appearance and other bonuses not even calculated until after the season finishes and then not summarised in any form at the FAW to give a total wage bill at the club until after the year end audit of the figures is completed.(the audit for 2011/2 is not yet finished).

4) your "mate" would have had to read through every contract of every player , calculate (or guess) the value of bonuses etc., add up those values , then add them to the wages of staff such as managers , coaches and all other employees (whose details are certainly not lodged with FAW)

Methinks you are telling porkies!!

Also , you keep on about an "average" increase in wage bills of £23m p.a. for clubs promoted from the Championship to the Premier. I gave you specific recent examples of where this has not been the case. Could you at least provide a few examples to support your claim that it is?

I am well able to grasp that the £17.4m figure includes promotion bonuses thanks (even though the figure wasn`t the £9m you claim , but closer to £7m given a "normal" figure of £10m). Thank god for that, so you are conceding that Swansea normal wage bill was not £17 million. Where do you get this information regarding the bonuses from? If you can prove otherwise I will stand corrected on that point, however the increase in wage would still be £20 million thus proving my point that promotion is not going to stop us losing money by the millions. as .
I have clearly stated where I get my figures from , but you continuously avoid explaining where your claimed wage bill of £30m for SCFC for 2011/2 comes from - your claim of a "mate" at FAW having access to player contract details and providing that confidential information to you doesn`t hold a lot of water I have told you exactly where I get my figures from

1) does he exist? yep

2) if he does , is he going to risk his job by passing on confidential information to you? The FAW are very touchy about such things. There are a group of 4 of them that process the contracts so im sure if I dont mentionames he will be ok, ill forward your concern however

3) if he is willing to do so , the information he would have would be limited to info. in an individual contract , including appearance and other bonuses not even calculated until after the season finishes and then not summarised in any form at the FAW to give a total wage bill at the club until after the year end audit of the figures is completed.(the audit for 2011/2 is not yet finished). No, but neither have I suggested that. If you take the accounts for the year 10/11 and then add the extra players and renegotiated contracts then it really isnt difficult to work out. They are avid football fans so arent secretive amongst eachother when it comes to processing the contracts. You are correct regarding staff which is probably why they come in under the £23 million increase as I am not privvy to what they pay the staff.

4) your "mate" would have had to read through every contract of every player , calculate (or guess) the value of bonuses etc., add up those values , then add them to the wages of staff such as managers , coaches and all other employees (whose details are certainly not lodged with FAW) He processes them.

Methinks you are telling porkies!! couldnt give a damn what you think.

Also , you keep on about an "average" increase in wage bills of £23m p.a. for clubs promoted from the Championship to the Premier. I gave you specific recent examples of where this has not been the case. Could you at least provide a few examples to support your claim that it is? You gave an example of the lowest payers in recent Premier League history in Blackpool, and 2 clubs still paying Premier league wages from the season before. Not forgetting all distorted by the promotion bonuses which you failed to aknowledge until now.

Out of interest, and of course it being the main point here. Judging from other teams wage bills, what would you expect ours to be taking into consideration the fact we tend to pay far more in terms of % of income that most clubs in our league and bucking that trend upon promotion will unlikely be the case.

We know Blackpools wage bill was £25 million.... I know Swanseas is around £30 million... we know WBA's was £37 million... So would you put us inbetween Swansea and WBA at say £34 million? Well that is an increase of £20 million right there. So im not entirely sure why you are arguing as it can only be the exact figure as any average Joe can tell my figures will be about right and thus not making us a viable business - and im sure you will agree Tan will also know that.

I am well able to grasp that the £17.4m figure includes promotion bonuses thanks (even though the figure wasn`t the £9m you claim , but closer to £7m given a "normal" figure of £10m). Thank god for that, so you are conceding that Swansea normal wage bill was not £17 million. Where do you get this information regarding the bonuses from? If you can prove otherwise I will stand corrected on that point, however the increase in wage would still be £20 million thus proving my point that promotion is not going to stop us losing money by the millions. as .
I have clearly stated where I get my figures from , but you continuously avoid explaining where your claimed wage bill of £30m for SCFC for 2011/2 comes from - your claim of a "mate" at FAW having access to player contract details and providing that confidential information to you doesn`t hold a lot of water I have told you exactly where I get my figures from

1) does he exist? yep


OK

2) if he does , is he going to risk his job by passing on confidential information to you? The FAW are very touchy about such things. There are a group of 4 of them that process the contracts so im sure if I dont mentionames he will be ok, ill forward your concern however

Are they aware that their conduct may now be under investigation by their employer?

3) if he is willing to do so , the information he would have would be limited to info. in an individual contract , including appearance and other bonuses not even calculated until after the season finishes and then not summarised in any form at the FAW to give a total wage bill at the club until after the year end audit of the figures is completed.(the audit for 2011/2 is not yet finished). No, but neither have I suggested that. If you take the accounts for the year 10/11 and then add the extra players and renegotiated contracts then it really isnt difficult to work out. They are avid football fans so arent secretive amongst eachother when it comes to processing the contracts. You are correct regarding staff which is probably why they come in under the £23 million increase as I am not privvy to what they pay the staff.

Can you do that calculation for us then as you have been given the specific data to do so?
Take the 2010/11 underlying wage figure , show us the wage total for the new signings (less , of course, the savings on leavers) , plus the total for the increased wages for existing players.

4) your "mate" would have had to read through every contract of every player , calculate (or guess) the value of bonuses etc., add up those values , then add them to the wages of staff such as managers , coaches and all other employees (whose details are certainly not lodged with FAW) He processes them.

He might process paperwork , but can he (and has he) done the calculation I suggest? If so , can you summarise that calculation for us.

Methinks you are telling porkies!! couldnt give a damn what you think.

Also , you keep on about an "average" increase in wage bills of £23m p.a. for clubs promoted from the Championship to the Premier. I gave you specific recent examples of where this has not been the case. Could you at least provide a few examples to support your claim that it is? You gave an example of the lowest payers in recent Premier League history in Blackpool, and 2 clubs still paying Premier league wages from the season before. Not forgetting all distorted by the promotion bonuses which you failed to aknowledge until now.


But I gave you specific real examples of actual increases for club`s actually promoted. Can you give me any specific real examples of clubs in recent years that support your alternative view?

Out of interest, and of course it being the main point here. Judging from other teams wage bills, what would you expect ours to be taking into consideration the fact we tend to pay far more in terms of % of income that most clubs in our league and bucking that trend upon promotion will unlikely be the case.

We know Blackpools wage bill was £25 million.... I know Swanseas is around £30 million... we know WBA's was £37 million... So would you put us inbetween Swansea and WBA at say £34 million? Well that is an increase of £20 million right there. So im not entirely sure why you are arguing as it can only be the exact figure as any average Joe can tell my figures will be about right and thus not making us a viable business - and im sure you will agree Tan will also know that.

We don`t know Blackpool`s was £25m.
You still haven`t shown that Swansea`s was £30m. If you can show me the calculation I refer to above , I will however accept that figure for now.
We do know that WBA`s was £37m.

Let us go along with your theory that the CCFC wage bill would rise from its recorded £15.9m to your "mid-point" figure of £34m.That would be an increase of £18m.

The increase in TV revenues between the Championship and Premier is a minimum of £34m even if a club gets promoted then finishes rock bottom and has the minimum number of televised games.(this will go up to a gap of over £58m from 2013/14 under the new Sky deal).

So a wage increase of £18m would be quite easily covered by an increase in TV revenues of £34m. In addition , there would be increases in matchday income , sponsorship and advertising revenues.

Keith, please stop spoiling this debate with actual facts and figures, nothing wrong with a bit of embellishment and artistic licence.

Tan's business plan seems to be written on the back of a beermat , too many ifs & buts to be taken too seriously ! He has the money to cope if his vision gets blurred ! KTF - we'll be here long after Tans days !

Roath Magic is Agent Dimi from CCMB, and whatever numerous monikers he used on there

Why can't they just enjoy having top flight status without obsessing over whether we're skint or not

f*cking oddball

Last edited by CityGent on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Keith, please stop spoiling this debate with actual facts and figures, nothing wrong with a bit of embellishment and artistic licence.

I know - I am going to have to stop.

Maybe I should let the artistic side of what I do take over a bit more - even so the theatre people I deal with have less artistic licence than the guy posting on here

As a throwaway parting piece though , just so people are aware , the lowest income (compared to CCFC`s £16m) of any Premier club in 2010/11 was the £51m earned by Wigan , followed by Blackpool`s £52m and Birmingham`s £56m and WBA`s £59m. Stoke ,who I see as of a similar size in terms of attendances if we got promoted , had income of £67m (might have been the season they played in Europe and earned some money there?).

On other , more important , things keep the spirits up, keep your chin (chins? ) up and keep the happy memories flowing.

Keith

You are thinking we are going to get the same income as Stoke

Our income would be around £52 million. Lets do some maths.....

OUTGOINGS

£9-£10 million in contractual promotion base bonuses and transfer fees, or in turn survival fees hould we avoid the drop..
£23 million in increased wage bill.
£13 million average spend of a newly promoted side just to compete.
£14.4 million shortfall (not incluing wages of new signings)
...........................................
£60.4 million
...........................................

Thats a loss of £8 million per year. Assuming we will buck our trend of not over paying our players and spending more of a % of income than most.

SO THE POINT BEING..... How in Gods name is Tan going to make a profit from this club without doing what is blatently obvious he is going to do? Shirt sales was his plan wasnt it?

Some more FACTS...

Liverpool sell the most shirts in Asia, 700,000 to be exact making £7 million per annum. They make £10 per shirt, far more than most clubs can negotiate with their manufacturers, the bigger the club the bigger the cut. Ours is most likely to be around the £5-6 mark. In order to negate our loss this term we will have to sell 3 million shirts, nearly 5 times that of Liverpool. To put that in perspective, we currently sell around 8,000 per year.

Thats just to break even....

Last edited by RoathMagic on Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roath Magic is Agent Dimi from CCMB, and whatever numerous monikers he used on there

Why can't they just enjoy having top flight status without obsessing over whether we're skint or not

f*cking oddball

errr not true.

next.

mmm you say you deal in facts well your figures say 9 t0 ten mil ect ect they are not excact are they

You are thinking we are going to get the same income as Stoke

Our income would be around £52 million. Lets do some maths.....

OUTGOINGS

£9-£10 million in contractual promotion base bonuses and transfer fees, or in turn survival fees hould we avoid the drop..
£23 million in increased wage bill.
£13 million average spend of a newly promoted side just to compete.
£14.4 million shortfall (not incluing wages of new signings)
...........................................
£60.4 million
...........................................

Thats a loss of £8 million per year. Assuming we will buck our trend of not over paying our players and spending more of a % of income than most.

SO THE POINT BEING..... How in Gods name is Tan going to make a profit from this club without doing what is blatently obvious he is going to do? Shirt sales was his plan wasnt it?

Some more FACTS...

Liverpool sell the most shirts in Asia, 700,000 to be exact making £7 million per annum. They make £10 per shirt, far more than most clubs can negotiate with their manufacturers, the bigger the club the bigger the cut. Ours is most likely to be around the £5-6 mark. In order to negate our loss this term we will have to sell 3 million shirts, nearly 5 times that of Liverpool. To put that in perspective, we currently sell around 8,000 per year.

Thats just to break even....

?

mmmm as your figures are estimates or averages they cannot be factual? and you say you only deal in facts? mmm
same as your opinions on what vt is doing or going to do they are opinions based on speculation not facts as factually only vt knows the real story and what he has planned! so dont spout this crap about facts as you dont even know the meaning of word! and dont bother to belittle me in your reply as couldnt give a fck! smart asses like you are two a penny in my job and
as i have done job for 25yrs you are childs play to deal with!!!

Your argument is based solely on the 14.4m injection having to continue every year. If other clubs can run without this, such as your beloved swansea, they why can't Cardiff? You don't know the reasons behind the need for the injection so you don't know how much was one off expenditure or how much that figure will be reduced or eradicated by the Malaysians. A chunk may have been interest payments that will reduce with the debt to equity deal or by the reduction of the Langston and other debts.

Your argument is based solely on the 14.4m injection having to continue every year. If other clubs can run without this, such as your beloved swansea, they why can't Cardiff? You don't know the reasons behind the need for the injection so you don't know how much was one off expenditure or how much that figure will be reduced or eradicated by the Malaysians. A chunk may have been interest payments that will reduce with the debt to equity deal or by the reduction of the Langston and other debts.

like said he says he deals in facts but as we know he is stating assumtions and guess work!! not facts but he probly wont anser as never does when he knows he is wrong comes out with a load of dribble! as he believes he is a smart ass!

Your argument is based solely on the 14.4m injection having to continue every year. If other clubs can run without this, such as your beloved swansea, they why can't Cardiff? You don't know the reasons behind the need for the injection so you don't know how much was one off expenditure or how much that figure will be reduced or eradicated by the Malaysians. A chunk may have been interest payments that will reduce with the debt to equity deal or by the reduction of the Langston and other debts.

like said he says he deals in facts but as we know he is stating assumtions and guess work!! not facts but he probly wont anser as never does when he knows he is wrong comes out with a load of dribble! as he believes he is a smart ass!

Exactly. Assume this assume that yet he is right and everyone else wrong. Bizarre but then what do you expect from a jack wum?

You are thinking we are going to get the same income as Stoke

Our income would be around £52 million. Lets do some maths.....

OUTGOINGS

£9-£10 million in contractual promotion base bonuses and transfer fees, or in turn survival fees hould we avoid the drop..
£23 million in increased wage bill.
£13 million average spend of a newly promoted side just to compete.
£14.4 million shortfall (not incluing wages of new signings)
...........................................
£60.4 million
...........................................

Thats a loss of £8 million per year. Assuming we will buck our trend of not over paying our players and spending more of a % of income than most.

SO THE POINT BEING..... How in Gods name is Tan going to make a profit from this club without doing what is blatently obvious he is going to do? Shirt sales was his plan wasnt it?

Some more FACTS...

Liverpool sell the most shirts in Asia, 700,000 to be exact making £7 million per annum. They make £10 per shirt, far more than most clubs can negotiate with their manufacturers, the bigger the club the bigger the cut. Ours is most likely to be around the £5-6 mark. In order to negate our loss this term we will have to sell 3 million shirts, nearly 5 times that of Liverpool. To put that in perspective, we currently sell around 8,000 per year.

Thats just to break even....

Could you please provide some straight answers/explanations on the claims you make in your post

1) where do I say we would get the same income as Stoke? I merely quoted what Stoke`s income was in 2010/11 and that I considered us to be a similar size team as them attendance wise. A lot of their income would have come from their relatively high league finishing position as each place above rock bottom is worth £720k.
However , any team in the Premier from 2013/14 season onwards will earn considerably more than that Stoke figure as the minimum TV money from that season will be £61m a club.

2) you quote £9m to £10m "survival fees" and a £23m increase in wage costs

a) are you not double counting here , based on your previous posts?
b) despite several requests , you have so far failed to provide any evidence of newly promoted teams in recent years actually incurring such a level of increased wage costs

3) you now bring a new "average" - an average spend "just to compete"

a) do you mean a transfer cost for new players?
b) if yes to a) , again what data do you base your claimed figure on?
c) were you aware that the cost in the annual accounts is based on an amortisation of the transfer fee over the length of contract given to the player signed?. Therefore , for players signed on a 4 year contract , you are assuming a transfer spend of 4x £13m = £52m.So
d) Do you really believe that newly promoted clubs have to spend £52m on transfer fees of new players the year they are promoted?
e) Can you name us clubs that have done so?

4) you also introduce another new figure into your "maths" - a £14.4m "shortfall"

a) what is that figure supposed to represent as it doesn`t agree with the recorded loss for 2010/11?
b) how have you oterwise calculated the figure?

Quite happy to discuss both real reported figures and the quality of your arithmetic with you , but could you at least respond with some kind of supporting evidence to support your side of the argument .You seem extremely reluctant to do so.



p.s. I actually agree with you that shirt sales in the Far East will not be at all lucrative for the club , and have been saying so since the rebranding issue raised its ugly head.

B ut can I again correct you on a few (unsupported)claims you make about Liverpool in this regard

a) they don`t sell 700,000 shirts a year in Asia , that is their worldwide sales figure
b) Liverpool don`t sell the most shirts in Asia - Man Utd do
c) they make nothing like £10 a shirt. According to their FD , they make about £3 a shirt . Most of the profits go to the retailer , wholesaler and manufacturer (as would be the case of the profits going to Vincent Tan`s companies rather than the club in CCFC`s case

Keith

You are thinking we are going to get the same income as Stoke

Our income would be around £52 million. Lets do some maths.....

OUTGOINGS

£9-£10 million in contractual promotion base bonuses and transfer fees, or in turn survival fees hould we avoid the drop..
£23 million in increased wage bill.
£13 million average spend of a newly promoted side just to compete.
£14.4 million shortfall (not incluing wages of new signings)
...........................................
£60.4 million
...........................................

Thats a loss of £8 million per year. Assuming we will buck our trend of not over paying our players and spending more of a % of income than most.

SO THE POINT BEING..... How in Gods name is Tan going to make a profit from this club without doing what is blatently obvious he is going to do? Shirt sales was his plan wasnt it?

Some more FACTS...

Liverpool sell the most shirts in Asia, 700,000 to be exact making £7 million per annum. They make £10 per shirt, far more than most clubs can negotiate with their manufacturers, the bigger the club the bigger the cut. Ours is most likely to be around the £5-6 mark. In order to negate our loss this term we will have to sell 3 million shirts, nearly 5 times that of Liverpool. To put that in perspective, we currently sell around 8,000 per year.

Thats just to break even....

Could you please provide some straight answers/explanations on the claims you make in your post

1) where do I say we would get the same income as Stoke? I merely quoted what Stoke`s income was in 2010/11 and that I considered us to be a similar size team as them attendance wise. A lot of their income would have come from their relatively high league finishing position as each place above rock bottom is worth £720k.
However , any team in the Premier from 2013/14 season onwards will earn considerably more than that Stoke figure as the minimum TV money from that season will be £61m a club.

2) you quote £9m to £10m "survival fees" and a £23m increase in wage costs

a) are you not double counting here , based on your previous posts?
b) despite several requests , you have so far failed to provide any evidence of newly promoted teams in recent years actually incurring such a level of increased wage costs

3) you now bring a new "average" - an average spend "just to compete"

a) do you mean a transfer cost for new players?
b) if yes to a) , again what data do you base your claimed figure on?
c) were you aware that the cost in the annual accounts is based on an amortisation of the transfer fee over the length of contract given to the player signed?. Therefore , for players signed on a 4 year contract , you are assuming a transfer spend of 4x £13m = £52m.So
d) Do you really believe that newly promoted clubs have to spend £52m on transfer fees of new players the year they are promoted?
e) Can you name us clubs that have done so?

4) you also introduce another new figure into your "maths" - a £14.4m "shortfall"

a) what is that figure supposed to represent as it doesn`t agree with the recorded loss for 2010/11?
b) how have you oterwise calculated the figure?

Quite happy to discuss both real reported figures and the quality of your arithmetic with you , but could you at least respond with some kind of supporting evidence to support your side of the argument .You seem extremely reluctant to do so.



p.s. I actually agree with you that shirt sales in the Far East will not be at all lucrative for the club , and have been saying so since the rebranding issue raised its ugly head.

B ut can I again correct you on a few (unsupported)claims you make about Liverpool in this regard

a) they don`t sell 700,000 shirts a year in Asia , that is their worldwide sales figure
b) Liverpool don`t sell the most shirts in Asia - Man Utd do
c) they make nothing like £10 a shirt. According to their FD , they make about £3 a shirt . Most of the profits go to the retailer , wholesaler and manufacturer (as would be the case of the profits going to Vincent Tan`s companies rather than the club in CCFC`s case

Keith

The problem here is that he starts off with the answer he wants i.e a big loss then works backwards making up the figures as he goes in an attempt to prove his point. I don't think numbers are his strong point.
By the way I assume his 14.4m is the reported 1.2m per month that the Malaysians were pumping in last year. But he has no idea what drove the figure of how much of it would be needed going forward. I do know he will assume something though.......

Your argument is based solely on the 14.4m injection having to continue every year. If other clubs can run without this, such as your beloved swansea, they why can't Cardiff? You don't know the reasons behind the need for the injection so you don't know how much was one off expenditure or how much that figure will be reduced or eradicated by the Malaysians. A chunk may have been interest payments that will reduce with the debt to equity deal or by the reduction of the Langston and other debts.

like said he says he deals in facts but as we know he is stating assumtions and guess work!! not facts but he probly wont anser as never does when he knows he is wrong comes out with a load of dribble! as he believes he is a smart ass!

Exactly. Assume this assume that yet he is right and everyone else wrong. Bizarre but then what do you expect from a jack wum?

anyway wouldnt worry about him as hes good for a laugh and topic of conversation when nothing else to talk about!!

Your argument is based solely on the 14.4m injection having to continue every year. If other clubs can run without this, such as your beloved swansea, they why can't Cardiff? You don't know the reasons behind the need for the injection so you don't know how much was one off expenditure or how much that figure will be reduced or eradicated by the Malaysians. A chunk may have been interest payments that will reduce with the debt to equity deal or by the reduction of the Langston and other debts.

like said he says he deals in facts but as we know he is stating assumtions and guess work!! not facts but he probly wont anser as never does when he knows he is wrong comes out with a load of dribble! as he believes he is a smart ass!

Exactly. Assume this assume that yet he is right and everyone else wrong. Bizarre but then what do you expect from a jack wum?

anyway wouldnt worry about him as hes good for a laugh and topic of conversation when nothing else to talk about!!

True, it's like having a pet really

Your argument is based solely on the 14.4m injection having to continue every year. If other clubs can run without this, such as your beloved swansea, they why can't Cardiff? You don't know the reasons behind the need for the injection so you don't know how much was one off expenditure or how much that figure will be reduced or eradicated by the Malaysians. A chunk may have been interest payments that will reduce with the debt to equity deal or by the reduction of the Langston and other debts.

like said he says he deals in facts but as we know he is stating assumtions and guess work!! not facts but he probly wont anser as never does when he knows he is wrong comes out with a load of dribble! as he believes he is a smart ass!

Exactly. Assume this assume that yet he is right and everyone else wrong. Bizarre but then what do you expect from a jack wum?

anyway wouldnt worry about him as hes good for a laugh and topic of conversation when nothing else to talk about!!

True, it's like having a pet really

pet swan????

Roath Magic is Agent Dimi from CCMB, and whatever numerous monikers he used on there

Why can't they just enjoy having top flight status without obsessing over whether we're skint or not

f*cking oddball

errr not true.

next.

Roath Magic is indeed a Jack who used to post on Planet Swamp as Sherrifadz and then got kicked off there (for being a cock) only to resurface here as Agent Dimi.

What gave the game away for me was an old post on PSwamp where he was arguing with someone and posted that he had a friend in the Welsh FA who dealt with players contracts. Exactly the same thing he's posted on here!

Why he's being such a knob trying (and failing) to convince City fans he's one of us is beyond me. Perhaps he gets his cock out and a roll of Kleenex when he's in here??

Him denying it only makes him look even more of a pillock

Ps I actually agree with some of his points

Roath Magic is Agent Dimi from CCMB, and whatever numerous monikers he used on there

Why can't they just enjoy having top flight status without obsessing over whether we're skint or not

f*cking oddball

errr not true.

next.

Roath Magic is indeed a Jack who used to post on Planet Swamp as Sherrifadz and then got kicked off there (for being a cock) only to resurface here as Agent Dimi.

What gave the game away for me was an old post on PSwamp where he was arguing with someone and posted that he had a friend in the Welsh FA who dealt with players contracts. Exactly the same thing he's posted on here!

Why he's being such a knob trying (and failing) to convince City fans he's one of us is beyond me. Perhaps he gets his cock out and a roll of Kleenex when he's in here??

Him denying it only makes him look even more of a pillock

Ps I actually agree with some of his points

HL,
Roath jerk off is at best an obsessive weirdo but more probably an obsessive pervert.
Odds on you are correct about the kleenex.

Your argument is based solely on the 14.4m injection having to continue every year. If other clubs can run without this, such as your beloved swansea, they why can't Cardiff? You don't know the reasons behind the need for the injection so you don't know how much was one off expenditure or how much that figure will be reduced or eradicated by the Malaysians. A chunk may have been interest payments that will reduce with the debt to equity deal or by the reduction of the Langston and other debts.

But we don't operate without this so your point is mute. The reasons behind it are simple, we spend more than we earn and expect others to pick up the tab. However instead of a business plan to reduce outgoings, we seem to be increasing overheads if the reported transfer targets are acquired.

We aren't currently servicing Langston so there is no monthly payment, the interest payments to the Malaysians is also recurring and not being serviced.