offensive banner ?

Josh bottled that debate.

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

You bottled a long, thought out reply. cheap shots.

Josh bottled that debate.

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

You bottled a long, thought out reply. cheap shots.

My original post was about how wlm was started by neo Nazis. The reply then makes a massive statement that the Nazis were on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum to what everyone thinks. How can I respond without knowing why they think the Nazis and KKK are left wing?

Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Peron.. nothing between them in terms of ideaology. Socialist/Communist despised the Jews.. er hang on, I read something about this recently..

To be honest I stopped reading after you said that the KKK and Nazis are left wing and then said that the side the neo Nazis are on was the 'good side'.

You really should either back the latter part of that statement up or retract it. It shouldn't be too hard it was only a couple of posts ago. I find that assertion as offensive as it is inaccurate.

The KKK were founded by democrats. Are you saying the Democrats are not on the left of American Politics?

The Nazis instigated massive state control from industry to child rearing and everything in between. There were huge overlaps in their ideology with their soviet cousins. Despite the common but ignorant misconception they were far right, if we were to categorise them based on policy they undoubtedly are left wing.

As Jock puts it - different sides of the same arse cheek.

I believe in Hanlen's razor, i.e. don't attribute malice when it is likely stupidity so I will put the point across in simpler steps so there can be no misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what I am saying.

Consistently throughout history the ideologies of the left bring nothing but division, hatred and mass genocide.

You are so painfully left wing that your every move, including throwing around lazy insinuations of supporting neo-nazis may as well be scripted.

So I ask you once again, for clarity, are you sure that you, being on the left and supporting every left wing position there is to take, are on the good guys side?

For further clarity, as someone who stands against, the identity politics of the left in all its ugly guises whether that be white or black supremacism, i.e as someone who stands in defiance of all of the policies you want to champion, I think you and your brethren on the left are on the side of the monsters, psychopaths and lunatics.

I do try to stay civil as much as I can on these topics, I personally believe there is a better chance of finding common ground and having a productive conversation if i do. But I'll be honest, you, or at least the way you present yourself on this board, come across as the very personification of everything that is wrong with this world today.

You are the very definition of a useful idiot - Papa Lenin would be proud.

To be honest I stopped reading after you said that the KKK and Nazis are left wing and then said that the side the neo Nazis are on was the 'good side'.

You really should either back the latter part of that statement up or retract it. It shouldn't be too hard it was only a couple of posts ago. I find that assertion as offensive as it is inaccurate.

The KKK were founded by democrats. Are you saying the Democrats are not on the left of American Politics?

The Nazis instigated massive state control from industry to child rearing and everything in between. There were huge overlaps in their ideology with their soviet cousins. Despite the common but ignorant misconception they were far right, if we were to categorise them based on policy they undoubtedly are left wing.

As Jock puts it - different sides of the same arse cheek.

I believe in Hanlen's razor, i.e. don't attribute malice when it is likely stupidity so I will put the point across in simpler steps so there can be no misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what I am saying.

Consistently throughout history the ideologies of the left bring nothing but division, hatred and mass genocide.

You are so painfully left wing that your every move, including throwing around lazy insinuations of supporting neo-nazis may as well be scripted.

So I ask you once again, for clarity, are you sure that you, being on the left and supporting every left wing position there is to take, are on the good guys side?

For further clarity, as someone who stands against, the identity politics of the left in all its ugly guises whether that be white or black supremacism, i.e as someone who stands in defiance of all of the policies you want to champion, I think you and your brethren on the left are on the side of the monsters, psychopaths and lunatics.

I do try to stay civil as much as I can on these topics, I personally believe there is a better chance of finding common ground and having a productive conversation if i do. But I'll be honest, you, or at least the way you present yourself on this board, come across as the very personification of everything that is wrong with this world today.

You are the very definition of a useful idiot - Papa Lenin would be proud.

I'll start with the 'good side' comment. This is what you originally put (not with what you added) 'Do you remember a while back Josh when I asked you if you were sure you were sure you were on the side of the good guys? I'll be honest with you here, I'm really starting to think your could be on the bad guys team for sure.' That was posted after listing how everyone is left wing. This heavily implies you interpret BLM and all left wing as bad and wlm and right wing are good. Wlm are the neo Nazis.

As for the Nazis are left wing comment. The addition of socialism to their name was propaganda to get working class votes. The actual socialist and left wing parities were banned and their leaders were exiled or sent to concentration camps. The night of the long knives got rid of the lefter leaning members of the Nazi party. During ww2 Britain also had a lot of state control. I suppose that means the conservative party is also left wing. I suppose the thousands of historians, books, documentaries etc are all just ignorant. What are your sources for the claim by the way?
The KKK weren't founded by democrats. What's your source for that lie?
I'll ignore the petty name calling. I suppose it tells us all there is to know about you.

Josh bottled that debate.

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

Also just for reference we've done this whole are the Nazis left wing thing before Josh.

You were right there on the thread back in September last year quoting Mike 'i'm a radical lefty tosser' Stuchberry and I put a fairly robust position forward then as to why the Nazis are left wing so lets not pretend this is a new concept you've only just heard of shall we.

You can refresh your memory here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=209852&hilit=+nazis

Oh, and if you want to do some proper reading on the concept rather than getting your information from Vox, Salon or Teen Vogue there is a decent academic paper on this subject here - http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journa ... 017/10.pdf
It does have some big words and no pictures though I'm afraid.

Oh and yes before you point out that it refers to the Nazis as far right, it is building the case for the horseshoe theory that the the extremes of politics inevitably rejoin. But frankly, at the point where we see the commonalities of the Marxism, Facism and Nazism the whole left/right dichotomy becomes a matter of political semantics - the important take aways are the shared origins and evolutionary paths of all of these ideologies.

Josh bottled that debate.

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

Also just for reference we've done this whole are the Nazis left wing thing before Josh.

You were right there on the thread back in September last year quoting Mike 'i'm a radical lefty tosser' Stuchberry and I put a fairly robust position forward then as to why the Nazis are left wing so lets not pretend this is a new concept you've only just heard of shall we.

You can refresh your memory here https://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/view ... lit=+nazis

Oh, and if you want to do some proper reading on the concept rather than getting your information from Vox, Salon or Teen Vogue there is a decent academic paper on this subject here - http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journa ... 017/10.pdf
It does have some big words and no pictures though I'm afraid.

Oh and yes before you point out that it refers to the Nazis as far right, it is building the case for the horseshoe theory that the the extremes of politics inevitably rejoin. But frankly, at the point where we see the commonalities of the Marxism, Facism and Nazism the whole left/right dichotomy becomes a matter of political semantics - the important take aways are the shared origins and evolutionary paths of all of these ideologies.

I don't think they were putting state over the individual like you said I think it was a mix of ww2 (Britain and the USSR also used state control) and the whole 'master race' ideal. Yes, some of the things the Nazis did could be seen as left wing but a very large majority are definitely not. The banning of left wing parties and murdering it's members, murdering left wing members of their party, Lebensraum and 'German land for German people'. The murdering of 'undesirables'. The Aryan master race being better than other races.

Right lets do this one at a time so we can work through this together. The answers are actually in your own post so you're almost there. I'm sure we'll get there if we pull together on this one.

I'll start with the 'good side' comment. This is what you originally put (not with what you added) 'Do you remember a while back Josh when I asked you if you were sure you were sure you were on the side of the good guys? I'll be honest with you here, I'm really starting to think your could be on the bad guys team for sure.'

Ok so far so good we seem to be on the same page-ish.

That was posted after listing how everyone is left wing.

drifting a little here but still on track. I did say everything that I listed as bad was left wing not the broader everyone, but maybe i'm being picky so let's just go with that

This heavily implies you interpret BLM and all left wing as bad

Yep spot on so far

and wlm and right wing are good. Wlm are the neo Nazis.

Ok so now you're contradicting yourself because as you just pointed out I said everyone I listed was left wing and then suggesting I've put the neo-nazis down as part of the right ergo on the 'good guys' side. You see the fatal flaw in your logic there? You literally said the sentence before that I had listed everyone as left and then said I inferred they were on the right.

Now I might think that you missed this bit by accident it was a long post so that could be possible.

But then that doesn't really explain how you've then suddenly recovered from your mid-post amnesia and remembered just a few lines later within the same post that I said the Nazis are left wing. In fact, you then went on to make quite a big deal out of the fact that I said the nazis were left wing across another three or four posts.

It's OK mate, given the amount of mental gymnastics you have to go through to justify some of the shite you come out with, I'd struggle to keep up with it all as well. We all make mistakes from time to time so I'll give you a pass. I'm sure you didn't mean to infer I was pro neo-nazi maliciously or anything. It just kinda slipped out I guess?

As for the Nazis are left wing comment. The addition of socialism to their name was propaganda to get working class votes. The actual socialist and left wing parities were banned and their leaders were exiled or sent to concentration camps. The night of the long knives got rid of the lefter leaning members of the Nazi party. During ww2 Britain also had a lot of state control. I suppose that means the conservative party is also left wing. I suppose the thousands of historians, books, documentaries etc are all just ignorant. What are your sources for the claim by the way?

Just given you one in a different post, but for reference, I'm coming from this having read Hegel, Marx, Solzhenitsyn, Darwin, Orwel, Nietzsche and yes Mein Kampf amongst others so do have some limited understanding of what the nuances between fascism, marxism and nazism.

But evidently not as much as you, so thanks for clearing up the whole 'they only used the word socialism as a con' bit. Never, heard that before but everything is now so much more abundantly clear.

In that vein perhaps you could help me clarify my understanding a bit further.

Tell me what exactly are your thoughts on the differences between the marxist and nazi positions on evolutionary legal theory? I'd also love to hear your interpretation of how the Hegalian dialectic was differently perceived by the Nazis and the Marxists? Perhaps you could outline the differences between the Nazis 'protective custody’ and the Soviet's 'People's Courts' - they always seemed fairly similar to me in practice - what am I missing?

The KKK weren't founded by democrats. What's your source for that lie?

Josh, just because you don't know something it doesn't mean it is a lie. Here you go here is a nice bit of propaganda from those evil right wing bigots at the History channel https://www.history.com/topics/reconstr ... -klux-klan

A little snippet to help you out

Founded in 1865, the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) extended into almost every southern state by 1870 and became a vehicle for white southern resistance to the Republican Party’s Reconstruction-era policies aimed at establishing political and economic equality for Black Americans.

Its members waged an underground campaign of intimidation and violence directed at white and Black Republican leaders.

Though Congress passed legislation designed to curb Klan terrorism, the organization saw its primary goal–the reestablishment of white supremacy–fulfilled through Democratic victories in state legislatures across the South in the 1870s.

I'll ignore the petty name calling. I suppose it tells us all there is to know about you.

You do realise you were the one who accused me of being pro neo-nazi right? But look like i say I'm sure that was a misunderstanding rather than just a quick an easy way out to dodge having to answer the more challenging questions of the post.

So I am happy to apologise unreservedly for suggesting you were left wing. I can see how that would offend you and I'm sorry,. I've taken some time out to think about how I would feel if someone said that to me on an internet message board and I know it would probably make me feel quite sad. In fact, I'd probably have to head to my safe space if I'm honest, so I realise now how wrong that was. It was said in anger, but it was still wrong and I'm sorry.

I promise I will never, infer that you are a left wing comrade ever again.

Anyway thats me done. Time for bed. I'll happily respond to any other queries you have in the morning.

Anyway no offence was committed regarding the use of the banner! So everyone should be happy

Anyway no offence was committed regarding the use of the banner! So everyone should be happy

Yeah sorry Allan didn't mean to derail the thread. (Just really didn't like the inference I supported neo-nazis). Will leave it be now so as not to to take it any further OT

josh seems to sit with his fingers in his ears going la la la la, I’ve discussed Nazi/Fascist ideology with him before. Hitler introduced rent caps, Salazar brought in social housing and schooling but on planet josh Rightwing all bad, Leftwing all good and if you don’t agree with him it’s because you’re simply too stupid to understand.

Anyway no offence was committed regarding the use of the banner! So everyone should be happy

Yeah sorry Allan didn't mean to derail the thread. (Just really didn't like the inference I supported neo-nazis). Will leave it be now so as not to to take it any further OT

Everyone is entitled to defend themselves on here I've done it enough times and very robustly..

Lancashire police have announced that no crime was committed by the towing of the White Lives Matter banner over the Etihad Stadium. Common sense prevails for once during this whole sorry mess that has hit our country.

F— - k I’ll be glad when football has the majority of this board and not squabbling over politics

Lancashire police have announced that no crime was committed by the towing of the White Lives Matter banner over the Etihad Stadium. Common sense prevails for once during this whole sorry mess that has hit our country.

Hopefully it is common sense by Lancashire Police or simply their default position as the Police never seem to take action against anyone unless there football fans

Right lets do this one at a time so we can work through this together. The answers are actually in your own post so you're almost there. I'm sure we'll get there if we pull together on this one.

I'll start with the 'good side' comment. This is what you originally put (not with what you added) 'Do you remember a while back Josh when I asked you if you were sure you were sure you were on the side of the good guys? I'll be honest with you here, I'm really starting to think your could be on the bad guys team for sure.'

Ok so far so good we seem to be on the same page-ish.

That was posted after listing how everyone is left wing.

drifting a little here but still on track. I did say everything that I listed as bad was left wing not the broader everyone, but maybe i'm being picky so let's just go with that

This heavily implies you interpret BLM and all left wing as bad

Yep spot on so far

and wlm and right wing are good. Wlm are the neo Nazis.

Ok so now you're contradicting yourself because as you just pointed out I said everyone I listed was left wing and then suggesting I've put the neo-nazis down as part of the right ergo on the 'good guys' side. You see the fatal flaw in your logic there? You literally said the sentence before that I had listed everyone as left and then said I inferred they were on the right.

Now I might think that you missed this bit by accident it was a long post so that could be possible.

But then that doesn't really explain how you've then suddenly recovered from your mid-post amnesia and remembered just a few lines later within the same post that I said the Nazis are left wing. In fact, you then went on to make quite a big deal out of the fact that I said the nazis were left wing across another three or four posts.

It's OK mate, given the amount of mental gymnastics you have to go through to justify some of the shite you come out with, I'd struggle to keep up with it all as well. We all make mistakes from time to time so I'll give you a pass. I'm sure you didn't mean to infer I was pro neo-nazi maliciously or anything. It just kinda slipped out I guess?

As for the Nazis are left wing comment. The addition of socialism to their name was propaganda to get working class votes. The actual socialist and left wing parities were banned and their leaders were exiled or sent to concentration camps. The night of the long knives got rid of the lefter leaning members of the Nazi party. During ww2 Britain also had a lot of state control. I suppose that means the conservative party is also left wing. I suppose the thousands of historians, books, documentaries etc are all just ignorant. What are your sources for the claim by the way?

Just given you one in a different post, but for reference, I'm coming from this having read Hegel, Marx, Solzhenitsyn, Darwin, Orwel, Nietzsche and yes Mein Kampf amongst others so do have some limited understanding of what the nuances between fascism, marxism and nazism.

But evidently not as much as you, so thanks for clearing up the whole 'they only used the word socialism as a con' bit. Never, heard that before but everything is now so much more abundantly clear.

In that vein perhaps you could help me clarify my understanding a bit further.

Tell me what exactly are your thoughts on the differences between the marxist and nazi positions on evolutionary legal theory? I'd also love to hear your interpretation of how the Hegalian dialectic was differently perceived by the Nazis and the Marxists? Perhaps you could outline the differences between the Nazis 'protective custody’ and the Soviet's 'People's Courts' - they always seemed fairly similar to me in practice - what am I missing?

The KKK weren't founded by democrats. What's your source for that lie?

Josh, just because you don't know something it doesn't mean it is a lie. Here you go here is a nice bit of propaganda from those evil right wing bigots at the History channel https://www.history.com/topics/reconstr ... -klux-klan

A little snippet to help you out

Founded in 1865, the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) extended into almost every southern state by 1870 and became a vehicle for white southern resistance to the Republican Party’s Reconstruction-era policies aimed at establishing political and economic equality for Black Americans.

Its members waged an underground campaign of intimidation and violence directed at white and Black Republican leaders.

Though Congress passed legislation designed to curb Klan terrorism, the organization saw its primary goal–the reestablishment of white supremacy–fulfilled through Democratic victories in state legislatures across the South in the 1870s.

I'll ignore the petty name calling. I suppose it tells us all there is to know about you.

You do realise you were the one who accused me of being pro neo-nazi right? But look like i say I'm sure that was a misunderstanding rather than just a quick an easy way out to dodge having to answer the more challenging questions of the post.

So I am happy to apologise unreservedly for suggesting you were left wing. I can see how that would offend you and I'm sorry,. I've taken some time out to think about how I would feel if someone said that to me on an internet message board and I know it would probably make me feel quite sad. In fact, I'd probably have to head to my safe space if I'm honest, so I realise now how wrong that was. It was said in anger, but it was still wrong and I'm sorry.

I promise I will never, infer that you are a left wing comrade ever again.

Anyway thats me done. Time for bed. I'll happily respond to any other queries you have in the morning.

You appear to be saying that because Nazis and Marxists share common ideologies (albeit with different methods of execution) that puts Nazis on the left. Have you considered though that instead of proving that Nazis are on the left you're actually showing that Marxists are on the right?

(And I did look through the entire KKK page and it doesn't say that they were founded by democrats anywhere, just that the first set wanted them in as they didn't like the republicans plans)

josh seems to sit with his fingers in his ears going la la la la, I’ve discussed Nazi/Fascist ideology with him before. Hitler introduced rent caps, Salazar brought in social housing and schooling but on planet josh Rightwing all bad, Leftwing all good and if you don’t agree with him it’s because you’re simply too stupid to understand.

You can't base the Nazis being left wing on the fact that they brought in rent caps though. Earlier this year the Tories nationalised northern rail. Does that mean they're left wing now? I'm sure the green party has one right wing policy but I'm not going to go round shouting that they're far right anytime soon.

josh seems to sit with his fingers in his ears going la la la la, I’ve discussed Nazi/Fascist ideology with him before. Hitler introduced rent caps, Salazar brought in social housing and schooling but on planet josh Rightwing all bad, Leftwing all good and if you don’t agree with him it’s because you’re simply too stupid to understand.

You can't base the Nazis being left wing on the fact that they brought in rent caps though. Earlier this year the Tories nationalised northern rail. Does that mean they're left wing now? I'm sure the green party has one right wing policy but I'm not going to go round shouting that they're far right anytime soon.

I’m not saying they are Leftwing I’ve long maintained the whole left right thing is bollox, extremism irrespective of what you label it, is invariably bad and those living under it suffer. Thanks to our MSM Rightwing has now became a pejorative term as its normally preceded by Hard, Far or extreme, I’ve never heard our MSM describe anyone or anything as Far Left

You appear to be saying that because Nazis and Marxists share common ideologies (albeit with different methods of execution) that puts Nazis on the left.

Christ that was hard work. Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Have you considered though that instead of proving that Nazis are on the left you're actually showing that Marxists are on the right?

So just to get this all straight, my claim that one far-right ideology is actually on the left is earth shattering for you. However, in the face of a counter argument that actually starts to stack up you now want to move all ideologies of the left over to the right.

Fair play thats some bold thinking there fella. You're wrong, obviously, but your refusal to acknowledge that is actually strangely impressive in an obstinate, dogmatic and slightly puritanical kind of way. You're committed I'll give you that

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

So anyway...

I think we've covered the Nazis are left wing conversation now so I assume your ready to tackle that thorny issue of whether the phrases and respective political movements of White Lives Matter and Black Lives Matter should be treated equally and if not why?

Oh and just one polite request, now we've cleared everything up, if you could perhaps offer up some form of apology or retraction for your inference that I was pro-neo nazis that would be much appreciated. I think we've now established beyond all doubt that you were wrong/mistaken and I have in fact never once in any way shape or form suggested neo-nazis were anything other than bad so if you could do the right thing Comrade?

F— - k I’ll be glad when football has the majority of this board and not squabbling over politics

Fair enough mate. I hear you

You appear to be saying that because Nazis and Marxists share common ideologies (albeit with different methods of execution) that puts Nazis on the left.

Christ that was hard work. Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Have you considered though that instead of proving that Nazis are on the left you're actually showing that Marxists are on the right?

So just to get this all straight, my claim that one far-right ideology is actually on the left is earth shattering for you. However, in the face of a counter argument that actually starts to stack up you now want to move all ideologies of the left over to the right.

Fair play thats some bold thinking there fella. You're wrong, obviously, but your refusal to acknowledge that is actually strangely impressive in an obstinate, dogmatic and slightly puritanical kind of way. You're committed I'll give you that

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

So anyway...

I think we've covered the Nazis are left wing conversation now so I assume your ready to tackle that thorny issue of whether the phrases and respective political movements of White Lives Matter and Black Lives Matter should be treated equally and if not why?

Oh and just one polite request, now we've cleared everything up, if you could perhaps offer up some form of apology or retraction for your inference that I was pro-neo nazis that would be much appreciated. I think we've now established beyond all doubt that you were wrong/mistaken and I have in fact never once in any way shape or form suggested neo-nazis were anything other than bad so if you could do the right thing Comrade?

But there is no need for ‘white lives matter’ Statements or even any consideration into this. It’s just used a distraction and people going on the defensive when the real attention should focussed elsewhere. By the time people realise there is a problem and actually come around to it more black people will be persecuted. Black lives matter but they never said only black lives matter and we know all lives matter but they just need your help with BLM because black lives are in danger. BLM is not an anti white movement. It’s an anti racism movement. If you feel attacked by it, perhaps your the problem (that’s not aimed at anyone specific but just something to consider).

You appear to be saying that because Nazis and Marxists share common ideologies (albeit with different methods of execution) that puts Nazis on the left.

Christ that was hard work. Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Have you considered though that instead of proving that Nazis are on the left you're actually showing that Marxists are on the right?

So just to get this all straight, my claim that one far-right ideology is actually on the left is earth shattering for you. However, in the face of a counter argument that actually starts to stack up you now want to move all ideologies of the left over to the right.

Fair play thats some bold thinking there fella. You're wrong, obviously, but your refusal to acknowledge that is actually strangely impressive in an obstinate, dogmatic and slightly puritanical kind of way. You're committed I'll give you that

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

So anyway...

I think we've covered the Nazis are left wing conversation now so I assume your ready to tackle that thorny issue of whether the phrases and respective political movements of White Lives Matter and Black Lives Matter should be treated equally and if not why?

Oh and just one polite request, now we've cleared everything up, if you could perhaps offer up some form of apology or retraction for your inference that I was pro-neo nazis that would be much appreciated. I think we've now established beyond all doubt that you were wrong/mistaken and I have in fact never once in any way shape or form suggested neo-nazis were anything other than bad so if you could do the right thing Comrade?

Before I move to the latter question I do have to pick up your flawed reasoning for the Nazis being on the left. My argument for Marxists being on the right is the exact thing you said but flipped. You have to see that me saying that Marxists sharing ideas as the Nazis therefore Marxists are right wing is completely as valid as 'the Nazis share ideas with Marxists therefore the Nazis are on the left'.
You've fallen into a valid argument but a wrong argument. Nelly is an elephant, Nelly is pink, therefore all elephants are pink. It's valid.... But wrong.

But there is no need for ‘white lives matter’ Statements or even any consideration into this. It’s just used a distraction and people going on the defensive when the real attention should focussed elsewhere. By the time people realise there is a problem and actually come around to it more black people will be persecuted. Black lives matter but they never said only black lives matter and we know all lives matter but they just need your help with BLM because black lives are in danger. BLM is not an anti white movement. It’s an anti racism movement. If you feel attacked by it, perhaps your the problem (that’s not aimed at anyone specific but just something to consider).

Fair enough, the issue here is that there are two distinct conversations going on in terms of what black lives matter means.

BLM (capitalised) is an overtly political organisation. black lives matter (lower case) as a phrase and movement has a different understanding essentially a broad definition of it being an anti-racist message. It is clever because if you stand against an anti-racist movement you are by definition a racist. So who is going to oppose Black Lives Matter? They are playing on the fact that very few will take the time to read their manifesto which is exactly what has happened. (It is a trick they learned from their Soros stablemates ANTIFA)

However, I also understand that most people who are speaking up for BLM are generally less aware of the political undertones to the BLM movement and are mostly those who see themselves as on the side of the anti-racists - this is a good thing. When it comes to not liking racists, we're all on the same team.

Just again for further clarity (not aimed at you but for anyone reading) as I've already been accused of being pro neo nazi on this thread - RACISM IS BAD.BAD BAD

So I absolutely see the need to separate out the phrase 'black lives matter' from the group BLM and stop them using such an emotive message that is almost universally accepted as a trojan horse to usher in their extremist political positions.

I think it is truly abhorrent that a far left Marxist group claiming to be speaking for the underprivileged would use the black community as pawns for political leverage which is exactly what they are doing.

So I think even if it is linguistically messy separating BLM the movement from 'black lives matter' the 'idea', it is at least a start.

There were a number of questions I put to Josh that he managed to avoid with some masterful distraction. (Have I mentioned how much I really, really don't someone suggesting I am pro-neo nazi?)

But i guess ultimately the point I am trying to get to actually lines up with your own point that White Lives Matter is a distraction.

If we fall into the trap around who White Lives Matter are (i'd never even heard of them as a group before yesterday) and start associating the phrase 'white live matters' (lowercase again) with their political ideology then surely we box ourselves into a corner with having to do the same with BLM and we really need to stop letting a bunch of Marxists usurp the voice of the Black Community for their own nefarious purposes.

As I've said many times on this board now, identity politics is tearing us all apart and we need to take a step back from it before it is too late.

You appear to be saying that because Nazis and Marxists share common ideologies (albeit with different methods of execution) that puts Nazis on the left.

Christ that was hard work. Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Have you considered though that instead of proving that Nazis are on the left you're actually showing that Marxists are on the right?

So just to get this all straight, my claim that one far-right ideology is actually on the left is earth shattering for you. However, in the face of a counter argument that actually starts to stack up you now want to move all ideologies of the left over to the right.

Fair play thats some bold thinking there fella. You're wrong, obviously, but your refusal to acknowledge that is actually strangely impressive in an obstinate, dogmatic and slightly puritanical kind of way. You're committed I'll give you that

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

So anyway...

I think we've covered the Nazis are left wing conversation now so I assume your ready to tackle that thorny issue of whether the phrases and respective political movements of White Lives Matter and Black Lives Matter should be treated equally and if not why?

Oh and just one polite request, now we've cleared everything up, if you could perhaps offer up some form of apology or retraction for your inference that I was pro-neo nazis that would be much appreciated. I think we've now established beyond all doubt that you were wrong/mistaken and I have in fact never once in any way shape or form suggested neo-nazis were anything other than bad so if you could do the right thing Comrade?

Before I move to the latter question I do have to pick up your flawed reasoning for the Nazis being on the left. My argument for Marxists being on the right is the exact thing you said but flipped. You have to see that me saying that Marxists sharing ideas as the Nazis therefore Marxists are right wing is completely as valid as 'the Nazis share ideas with Marxists therefore the Nazis are on the left'.
You've fallen into a valid argument but a wrong argument. Nelly is an elephant, Nelly is pink, therefore all elephants are pink. It's valid.... But wrong.

Josh this is getting ridiculous now. You've been kicking this down the line for hours now. Just either man up and admit you can't answer the questions I put to you or put an intelligent response together.

If you are going to pick up my flawed reasoning for the Nazis being on the left do it. You haven't done that above but obfuscated the conversation yet again with a new but equally irrelevant point.

Everyone looking on can see that you have no response, I don't know why I keep biting.

The point on blm and Black Lives Matter is a strong one, with distinction almost impossible.

The same thing happened in Ireland, with the Irish Radish Association who kept getting telephone calls from Colonel Gadaffi..

You appear to be saying that because Nazis and Marxists share common ideologies (albeit with different methods of execution) that puts Nazis on the left.

Christ that was hard work. Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Have you considered though that instead of proving that Nazis are on the left you're actually showing that Marxists are on the right?

So just to get this all straight, my claim that one far-right ideology is actually on the left is earth shattering for you. However, in the face of a counter argument that actually starts to stack up you now want to move all ideologies of the left over to the right.

Fair play thats some bold thinking there fella. You're wrong, obviously, but your refusal to acknowledge that is actually strangely impressive in an obstinate, dogmatic and slightly puritanical kind of way. You're committed I'll give you that

Just waiting for his groundbreaking thesis on how the Nazis were left wing first. Once the world has addressed this radical new discovery then I'll be more than happy to move on to the next bit.

So anyway...

I think we've covered the Nazis are left wing conversation now so I assume your ready to tackle that thorny issue of whether the phrases and respective political movements of White Lives Matter and Black Lives Matter should be treated equally and if not why?

Oh and just one polite request, now we've cleared everything up, if you could perhaps offer up some form of apology or retraction for your inference that I was pro-neo nazis that would be much appreciated. I think we've now established beyond all doubt that you were wrong/mistaken and I have in fact never once in any way shape or form suggested neo-nazis were anything other than bad so if you could do the right thing Comrade?

Before I move to the latter question I do have to pick up your flawed reasoning for the Nazis being on the left. My argument for Marxists being on the right is the exact thing you said but flipped. You have to see that me saying that Marxists sharing ideas as the Nazis therefore Marxists are right wing is completely as valid as 'the Nazis share ideas with Marxists therefore the Nazis are on the left'.
You've fallen into a valid argument but a wrong argument. Nelly is an elephant, Nelly is pink, therefore all elephants are pink. It's valid.... But wrong.

Josh this is getting ridiculous now. You've been kicking this down the line for hours now. Just either man up and admit you can't answer the questions I put to you or put an intelligent response together.

If you are going to pick up my flawed reasoning for the Nazis being on the left do it. You haven't done that above but obfuscated the conversation yet again with a new but equally irrelevant point.

Everyone looking on can see that you have no response, I don't know why I keep biting.

There is no point moving on when such a massive hole there which needs to be addressed first. I will explain the problem with your reasoning one last time and in the simplest way I can.
You said (and agreed when I put it in these terms) that because Nazis share some ideologies with Marxists that means Nazis must be on the left.
That's an invalid argument of association.
I can say that because Marxists have some ideologies the same as Nazis then Marxists are on the right. Your argument has to accept that that is also a valid point. It's an incorrect point but uses the exact same reasoning as yours so has to be accepted by you.

I've already given you the elephant example of why your reasoning is incorrect but I'll give you another to see if that clicks with you.
All good footballers show up to training on time. I show up to training on time, therefore I am a good footballer.
Pigeons, ducks, and crows have wings and can fly. Penguins also have wings, therefore penguins can fly. That there is your reasoning for Nazis being on the left simplified. Marxists believe this and are on the left, Nazis believe that as well so therefore must also be on the left. In both cases the conclusion is completely wrong.

A t-shirt with (blm) adorning a statue of christ in rhiwbina as been vandalised and "all" replaced black wording! Now cannot condone what happened but the person who did tshirt is calling it racism for putting all on t-shirt? Think people are getting confused as to what constitutes racism....

There is no point moving on when such a massive hole there which needs to be addressed first.

Actually the two points are not really linked at all. You are picking a small point of contention and hiding behind it as an excuse to not address the latter questions which challenge your position at large.

I will explain the problem with your reasoning one last time and in the simplest way I can.

Cute, you sound like me. Mimicry is the highest form of flattery - thanks Josh

You said (and agreed when I put it in these terms) that because Nazis share some ideologies with Marxists that means Nazis must be on the left. That's an invalid argument of association.

OK I thought that perhaps you would have had the intelligence to see this without me having to join all the dots and put it this explicitly. I should have been clearer, you just wear me down to be honest and I get tired of pointing every tiny detail out, so I got sloppy and assumed a reasonable amount of critical thinking on your part so as to not have to hold your hand on every single step of this journey. I'll try harder to be more patient with you.

So to the point at hand - that is hopefully now the only barrier to your insightful, articulate and well thought out (you've had long enough) response to the rest of my post...

No, you cannot transpose my argument that 'Nazis belong on the left as they share commonalities with the Marxists' into 'Marxists belong on the right because they share commonalities with Nazis.'

The reason Nazis are on the left is not because they share ideological roots with the Marxists. It is because the ideological roots of both Marxists and Nazis are a sub-set of left wing politics. The former is a symptom of the latter. I'll accept this is a nuanced difference, but it is an important one and I genuinely thought you'd pick up on it without me having to explain it.

This could go on forever, so just a really, really quick gross simplification but it hopefully gets us past this point...

Left wing = big government, state/group is prioritised over the individual, economically opposed to capitalism. Nazis and Marxists both tick these boxes

Right wing = small government, prioritises individual liberty over the group/state, economically embraces free market and capitalism. Nazis and Marxists oppose all of these positions.

I've already given you the elephant example of why your reasoning is incorrect but I'll give you another to see if that clicks with you. All good footballers show up to training on time. I show up to training on time, therefore I am a good footballer. Pigeons, ducks, and crows have wings and can fly. Penguins also have wings, therefore penguins can fly.

All elephants that are pink can fly and are great footballers. Great thanks for that. Really useful.

The point on blm and Black Lives Matter is a strong one, with distinction almost impossible.

The same thing happened in Ireland, with the Irish Radish Association who kept getting telephone calls from Colonel Gadaffi..

Lancashire police have announced that no crime was committed by the towing of the White Lives Matter banner over the Etihad Stadium. Common sense prevails for once during this whole sorry mess that has hit our country.

did it even warrant an investigation ?
has anyone investigated the black lives matter slogan as possibly being offensive...its ridiculous..