' Debt to Equity by Keith Morgan '

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A few people have asked me to do a brief post about why this is so important to CCFC and its future financial stability.

A number of people are under the impression that , as the money is owed to Vincent Tan who is also currently the majority shareholder then it doesn`t matter as "he only owes the money to himself".That view misses a fundamental point.

At present Vincent Tan is the principal creditor of CCFC and , as a creditor , can demand his money back in full at any time. He hasn`t lent the money on an agreed term loan basis , it is repayable on demand like an overdraft. The threat of this (coupled with the fact that he has installed a majority "puppet" director number to the board)means that he dictates to the board what to do even though he is not a director himself.

The club obviously cannot afford to pay him back his £70m to £80m (the debt according to VT himself) let alone the "up to £140m" figure that Mehmet Dalman recently was quoted as saying VT had put into the club. I have no idea why the Chairman and the creditor himself are so far apart in their figures. Therefore VT can effectively hold the club to ransom unless he gets his own way (what I would refer to as "spoilt child syndrome").He can insist on player sales during transfer windows and pocket that cash plus the Sky t.v. money as and when received and the directors would be powerless to stop him.

If all of his debt is converted into shares as he has often promised but not yet delivered and seems to be further deferring as a decision then he is no longer owed a debt that he can ask for repayment of. The only way he could take money out of the club was by way of shareholder dividends.(if he sells his shares he isn`t taking money out of the club but from whoever buys the shares from him) Because of the long history of losses the club has made over the years, the cumulative losses at the moment are huge and it will take many years , even at Premier League level , to turn those into a cumulative profits position. Dividends can only be paid out of such cumulative revenue profits.

So it does make a big difference if VT`s money is debt or shares.

Thanks Keith makes more sense now.

Which is why with all the protests and anger against him he'd be a fool to do it at present, and one thing he isn't is a fool.

So on the face of it, it seems to make no sense to turn debt into equity, as you have little chance of getting your investment back, however owners/investors still do, as in the case of Randy Lerner, who has just converted a £90 million loan into shares, even though Villa have just made a £50 million loss!

Randy Lerner don't have the supporter's against him, I'm sure if we weren't creating problems for VT and everything was ok and he could see himself staying he'd probably do it.

Which is why with all the protests and anger against him he'd be a fool to do it at present, and one thing he isn't is a fool.

spot on you took the words from my mouth,this could all end very messily indeed.Fans should think long and hard before they protest.
One last point,you don't like Tan do you Keith ?

I've thought long and hard about it and I will still be marching on Saturday

Never mind tans a clown accounding to people on here! So he hasnt a clue about financial side of football?

Randy Lerner don't have the supporter's against him, I'm sure if we weren't creating problems for VT and everything was ok and he could see himself staying he'd probably do it.

Considering he thinks "10 per cent or five per cent or maybe even a few hundred people" are against him, then I think you might be wrong saying he'd probably do it. Stop making excuses for the clown, he's pulling the wool over your eyes. He's promised and promised to do it, now his latest reason is because of Malky . You couldn't make it up.

Never mind tans a clown accounding to people on here! So he hasnt a clue about financial side of football?

The protesters are scraping the barrel for any negatives to throw at tan,it's all getting a bit silly now and it's probably turning people off protesting.

Never mind tans a clown accounding to people on here! So he hasnt a clue about financial side of football?

The protesters are scraping the barrel for any negatives to throw at tan,it's all getting a bit silly now and it's probably turning people off protesting.

We want our club to play in our true identity, how is that scraping the barrel ? Some fans are unreal, what is wrong with wanting Cardiff City to actually look like Cardiff City ?

Never mind tans a clown accounding to people on here! So he hasnt a clue about financial side of football?

The protesters are scraping the barrel for any negatives to throw at tan,it's all getting a bit silly now and it's probably turning people off protesting.

We want our club to play in our true identity, how is that scraping the barrel ? Some fans are unreal, what is wrong with wanting Cardiff City to actually look like Cardiff City ?

There isn't anything wrong in wanting Cardiff in Blue, its what 80-90% of all supporters want, its just that the large majority see no point at all in marching or protesting about it, as we all, already get it

Never mind tans a clown accounding to people on here! So he hasnt a clue about financial side of football?

The protesters are scraping the barrel for any negatives to throw at tan,it's all getting a bit silly now and it's probably turning people off protesting.

We want our club to play in our true identity, how is that scraping the barrel ? Some fans are unreal, what is wrong with wanting Cardiff City to actually look like Cardiff City ?

There isn't anything wrong in wanting Cardiff in Blue, its what 80-90% of all supporters want, its just that the large majority see no point at all in marching or protesting about it, as we all, already get it

Why not protest though mate ? If fans feel strongly about it then surely their voices should be heard. What annoys me amongst alot of other aspects of the rebrand is that we keep hearing Tan wants to be successful,which of course he does he's a business man. Surely by uniting the whole club as one and moving forward together is the only way he's going to be successful, instead he's far more concerned about a culture that is across the other side of the world. He is the problem and he's too b*stard proud to do the right thing.

.....At present Vincent Tan is the principal creditor of CCFC and , as a creditor , can demand his money back in full at any time. He hasn`t lent the money on an agreed term loan basis , it is repayable on demand like an overdraft.....

Above say it all so them who have said " he owes himself the debt " so dont protest or he will walk away where are you saturday, he will lose it all more or less if he took us under which he will not clearly.

Record numbers of roath magic posts being proven correct after all this season

Our club is slowly but surely heading down the shitter, whichever side comes out on top in this blue/red battle imo the club can only go downhill. If Tan wins the protests will contiue and possibly escalate into personal abuse, if the blue brigade wins Tan will probably walk, their will be no winner at the end of the day our club will suffer. Just my take on things

Our club is slowly but surely heading down the shitter, whichever side comes out on top in this blue/red battle imo the club can only go downhill. If Tan wins the protests will contiue and possibly escalate into personal abuse, if the blue brigade wins Tan will probably walk, their will be no winner at the end of the day our club will suffer. Just my take on things

Our club is slowly but surely heading down the shitter, whichever side comes out on top in this blue/red battle imo the club can only go downhill. If Tan wins the protests will contiue and possibly escalate into personal abuse, if the blue brigade wins Tan will probably walk, their will be no winner at the end of the day our club will suffer. Just my take on things

spot on. Damned if we do damned if we don't...... Life as a city fan

If you was him would you do it right now? Of course not.

If you was him would you do it right now? Of course not.

Why? That was one of the principle carrots dangled as part of the rebrand. I wonder if he will ever do it anyway. First it was sorting Langston then he would convert debt to equity. Wasn't done. Now it won't be sorted until Malky's situaton is sorted. What that has to with a debt to equity conversion I honestly have no idea! The situation is farcical!

If you was him would you do it right now? Of course not.

Why? That was one of the principle carrots dangled as part of the rebrand. I wonder if he will ever do it anyway. First it was sorting Langston then he would convert debt to equity. Wasn't done. Now it won't be sorted until Malky's situaton is sorted. What that has to with a debt to equity conversion I honestly have no idea! The situation is farcical!

All sounds very nice and he SHOULD do it but in real world why he do it now with most people against him? To be nice and help us out?

If you was him would you do it right now? Of course not.

Why? That was one of the principle carrots dangled as part of the rebrand. I wonder if he will ever do it anyway. First it was sorting Langston then he would convert debt to equity. Wasn't done. Now it won't be sorted until Malky's situaton is sorted. What that has to with a debt to equity conversion I honestly have no idea! The situation is farcical!

All sounds very nice and he SHOULD do it but in real world why he do it now with most people against him? To be nice and help us out?

No because nothing has changed and if he ever was going to convert debt to equity then why not now? He didn't give a feck what people thought at the time of implementing the rebrand, so why would he give a feck now?

Of course he doesn't care but your missing the point.

Why would he convert debt to equity now other than saying he would at some point? What would he gain?

So are you saying the best way to get rid of Tan is get behind the side and try and stay up? That way he can get another buyer in and chandelier us back to blue. If we go down the only way he will get his money back is to stick around and try and get us back up.

I don't think there is a best way, he will do what he wants when he wants.

I don't think there is a best way, he will do what he wants when he wants.

this I'm sorry to say has been a fact all along.

It did make sense not to convert debt to equity before the resolution of Langstone, but I can't see the logic of waiting till after the Malky thing is sorted, that is just an employee issue, not a shareholder or major creditor issue.

Anyone?

If it doesnt benefit him now to turn debt to equity when will it ever be the right time?

People said when we were in the championship "he'll do it when we're in the PL"

Then it was "He'll do it when langstons paid off"

Then it was "After Xmas when we're a few points above relagation"

Now it's "After the Malky bollocks"

Football is unpredictable game and it will never be the right time for him to convert the debt.

My personnal opinion is that the longer he is in charge, not only are we not going to get a return to blue but the debt will keep on increasing untill he decides to cut his losses and run and we end up like another pompey if not worse.

People need to wake up and realise this man does not care about the club in the same way our fans do, he does'nt care what the fans want or care about our opinions. All he cares about is trying to make money out of us which in my opinion will never happen. Look at all the other club in the PL, bar one or two none of them turnover a profit

According to the general census on this MB most are against Tan (I personally feel this is not so), so why would he turn debt to equity if this is the case?
A club where the owner and fans are all singing from the same hymn sheet would mean a debt to equity plan would be completed much quicker and more smoothly than a club where there's a mini war going on and with certain members with an agenda to remove the owner.
I feel to some on here removing Tan is just as much a priority as returning to blue.

According to the general census on this MB most are against Tan (I personally feel this is not so), so why would he turn debt to equity if this is the case?
A club where the owner and fans are all singing from the same hymn sheet would mean a debt to equity plan would be completed much quicker and more smoothly than a club where there's a mini war going on and with certain members with an agenda to remove the owner.
I feel to some on here removing Tan is just as much a priority as returning to blue.

I think the question you need to be asking is - why do it in the first place.

This Malky excuse is just to appease you, the excuse before was Hammam.

If it doesnt benefit him now to turn debt to equity when will it ever be the right time?

People said when we were in the championship "he'll do it when we're in the PL"

Then it was "He'll do it when langstons paid off"

Then it was "After Xmas when we're a few points above relagation"

Now it's "After the Malky bollocks"

Football is unpredictable game and it will never be the right time for him to convert the debt.

My personnal opinion is that the longer he is in charge, not only are we not going to get a return to blue but the debt will keep on increasing untill he decides to cut his losses and run and we end up like another pompey if not worse.

People need to wake up and realise this man does not care about the club in the same way our fans do, he does'nt care what the fans want or care about our opinions. All he cares about is trying to make money out of us which in my opinion will never happen. Look at all the other club in the PL, bar one or two none of them turnover a profit

I don't want to shit on your parade, but we are on course to make a £12 million pound profit this year

According to the general census on this MB most are against Tan (I personally feel this is not so), so why would he turn debt to equity if this is the case?
A club where the owner and fans are all singing from the same hymn sheet would mean a debt to equity plan would be completed much quicker and more smoothly than a club where there's a mini war going on and with certain members with an agenda to remove the owner.
I feel to some on here removing Tan is just as much a priority as returning to blue.

good shout,and i believe the trust and supporters club have been strong armed into this protest by the tan out brigade.