Bigot

What for exactly?

Me?

Yes, are you suggesting that they should be forgiven for being homosexual?

We all need to be forgiven, its the human condition. The state of Sin is that we have decided to do things are own way rather than God's way; all of us, regardless of who has tried to live the best life or has conducted themselves in an appalling manner. We all need forgiveness, straight or gay

But in my post I meant practising homosexuals.

No we don't, not all of us crave forgiveness. That's shameless religious doctrine as most people don't feel what they're doing is wrong.

So practising homosexuals need to be forgiven? What for? Utter nonsense.

My dear DamnRightIveGotTheBlues .you are a perfect example of someone who reads into a posting what they want to see............how in Gods name did you come to the conclusion i was a Christian,i suppose it could be the case of seeing yourself as others see you,so i will forgive you my son,after all "let him without sin cast the first stone"and without doubt, you do reap what you sew,and also DamnRightIveGotTheBlues to show i do have a left wing bone in my body,i say unto you"let the meek inherit the world"....but i still cant understand why you think im a Christian............as for you Nedd,i clearly demonstrated my feminine side.....i lie about my age,i end this posting by wishing Damn Right and Nedd that their God go with them .......God bless you my children

My dear DamnRightIveGotTheBlues .you are a perfect example of someone who reads into a posting what they want to see............how in Gods name did you come to the conclusion i was a Christian,i suppose it could be the case of seeing yourself as others see you,so i will forgive you my son,after all "let him without sin cast the first stone"and without doubt, you do reap what you sew,and also DamnRightIveGotTheBlues to show i do have a left wing bone in my body,i say unto you"let the meek inherit the world"....but i still cant understand why you think im a Christian............as for you Nedd,i clearly demonstrated my feminine side.....i lie about my age,i end this posting by wishing Damn Right and Nedd that their God go with them .......God bless you my children

I'm 47, how old are you?

What for exactly?

Me?

Yes, are you suggesting that they should be forgiven for being homosexual?

We all need to be forgiven, its the human condition. The state of Sin is that we have decided to do things are own way rather than God's way; all of us, regardless of who has tried to live the best life or has conducted themselves in an appalling manner. We all need forgiveness, straight or gay

But in my post I meant practising homosexuals.

No we don't, not all of us crave forgiveness. That's shameless religious doctrine as most people don't feel what they're doing is wrong.

So practising homosexuals need to be forgiven? What for? Utter nonsense.

Mate, I'm saying we all need forgiveness. I do, the Church does, everyone does! Feelings are no basis for discerning empirical truths; for example I'm sure there are countless examples of drivers once they've got low on petrol and when the pump is empty feeling that they can put diesel in the tank instead. No matter how much they may 'feel' it is right it still won't stop the engine from getting royally screwed up. Truth transcend feelings.

The basis for morality and truth cannot ever be human feelings. It raises the question as to what if my feelings on a subject are different to yours, what makes my judgement any more valid than yours??? Then does a murder or a rapist feel bad about what they have done or about to do??? If they don't have bad feelings does that give then justification for their actions? It leads us down a very messy road, where you could in some circumstance start to argue that the end begins to justify the means. I've not read it but there's a book by a Christian scholar called Dietrich Boenhoffer who struggles with questions like that as he was involved in a plot to assassinate Hitler. Might be worth a read.

There has to undeniably be something beyond humanity by which we are able to receive inalienable truths as left to ourselves and our own devices then for one we wouldn't exist and two we'd make a right pigs ear of it.

(ps, sorry I did a Master in Christian Ethics so discussing this area of things is my kind of thing lol)

My dear DamnRightIveGotTheBlues .you are a perfect example of someone who reads into a posting what they want to see............how in Gods name did you come to the conclusion i was a Christian,i suppose it could be the case of seeing yourself as others see you,so i will forgive you my son,after all "let him without sin cast the first stone"and without doubt, you do reap what you sew,and also DamnRightIveGotTheBlues to show i do have a left wing bone in my body,i say unto you"let the meek inherit the world"....but i still cant understand why you think im a Christian............as for you Nedd,i clearly demonstrated my feminine side.....i lie about my age,i end this posting by wishing Damn Right and Nedd that their God go with them .......God bless you my children

My apologies, I got confused with another poster. Although you can read many things in your posts, such is your use of punctuation.

Anyway, forget the religious stuff, everything else I said still stands. There is no justifiable reason to be against a human being just for their sexual orientation.

Assuming that you are not religious, I take it that your intolerance just comes from you're own hateful mind (rather than a hateful minds of the clergy). That's sad.

What for exactly?

Me?

Yes, are you suggesting that they should be forgiven for being homosexual?

We all need to be forgiven, its the human condition. The state of Sin is that we have decided to do things are own way rather than God's way; all of us, regardless of who has tried to live the best life or has conducted themselves in an appalling manner. We all need forgiveness, straight or gay

But in my post I meant practising homosexuals.

No we don't, not all of us crave forgiveness. That's shameless religious doctrine as most people don't feel what they're doing is wrong.

So practising homosexuals need to be forgiven? What for? Utter nonsense.

Mate, I'm saying we all need forgiveness. I do, the Church does, everyone does! Feelings are no basis for discerning empirical truths; for example I'm sure there are countless examples of drivers once they've got low on petrol and when the pump is empty feeling that they can put diesel in the tank instead. No matter how much they may 'feel' it is right it still won't stop the engine from getting royally screwed up. Truth transcend feelings.

The basis for morality and truth cannot ever be human feelings. It raises the question as to what if my feelings on a subject are different to yours, what makes my judgement any more valid than yours??? Then does a murder or a rapist feel bad about what they have done or about to do??? If they don't have bad feelings does that give then justification for their actions? It leads us down a very messy road, where you could in some circumstance start to argue that the end begins to justify the means. I've not read it but there's a book by a Christian scholar called Dietrich Boenhoffer who struggles with questions like that as he was involved in a plot to assassinate Hitler. Might be worth a read.

There has to undeniably be something beyond humanity by which we are able to receive inalienable truths as left to ourselves and our own devices then for one we wouldn't exist and two we'd make a right pigs ear of it.
(ps, sorry I did a Master in Christian Ethics so discussing this area of things is my kind of thing lol)

Highlighted part is THE biggest load of nonsense I have ever read.

1) It is quite easily denied. I for one, am denying it.

2) We would exist.

3) We already have made a 'right pigs ear of it'. Partly due to religion itself ironically.

Haha, "undeniably".

This has now become undebatable, when people are stuck in thier ways to this extent, you can't do anything.

Haha, "undeniably".

This has now become undebatable, when people are stuck in thier ways to this extent, you can't do anything.

I'm open to debate :S. To me is pretty undeniable, although I can appreciate other's view pint even if I don't necessarily agree with it

1) It is quite easily denied. I for one, am denying it.

2) We would exist.

3) We already have made a 'right pigs ear of it'. Partly due to religion itself ironically.

A religion that says 'love your neighbour as yourself', 'turn the other cheek', 'give them the shirt off your back', 'sell all you have and give it to the poor', whoo 'brought together their wealth and gave it to each as they had need' and to 'pray for those who persecute you is not to blame. We, the people, are to blame.

Haha, "undeniably".

This has now become undebatable, when people are stuck in thier ways to this extent, you can't do anything.

I'm open to debate :S. To me is pretty undeniable, although I can appreciate other's view pint even if I don't necessarily agree with it

As soon as somebody suggests that a deity is 'undeniable' they lose all credit in my eyes. This is because even the most fervent theist should, by all accounts, be aware that there is no overriding evidence either way. Believing in a deity is fine, as is not believing, however suggesting that it's impossible to deny? Nonsensical at best.

1) It is quite easily denied. I for one, am denying it.

2) We would exist.

3) We already have made a 'right pigs ear of it'. Partly due to religion itself ironically.

A religion that says 'love your neighbour as yourself', 'turn the other cheek', 'give them the shirt off your back', 'sell all you have and give it to the poor', whoo 'brought together their wealth and gave it to each as they had need' and to 'pray for those who persecute you is not to blame. We, the people, are to blame.

The same religion that holds responsibility (or a degree of it) for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people, the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race.

It's always the same with the religious. All too quick to preach the merits of their faith (see your above post) yet will never mention the FAR greater amount of repugnant and abhorrent events that occured as a result. Unlike you, I am objective. I will say that religion HAS it's merits, and can be a force for good. However the majority of time, and indeed history, it has caused nothing but pain and suffering.

Haha, "undeniably".

This has now become undebatable, when people are stuck in thier ways to this extent, you can't do anything.

I'm open to debate :S. To me is pretty undeniable, although I can appreciate other's view pint even if I don't necessarily agree with it

As soon as somebody suggests that a deity is 'undeniable' they lose all credit in my eyes. This is because even the most fervent theist should, by all accounts, be aware that there is no overriding evidence either way. Believing in a deity is fine, as is not believing, however suggesting that it's impossible to deny? Nonsensical at best.

I think that's what I'm saying though. Via the things I have seen in my life, the experiences I've had, the things I've felt, the things I've seen God tell me that have then happened; for me it is pretty undeniable.

Th Bible does say "faith is being sure of things hoped for and certain of things unseen" so I guess if I didn't say it was undeniable for me then I would have to question the validity of my faith. Does that make sense? Though at times we can all have doubts, but for me, more often than not they become a ground over which my faith can grow rather than get destroyed.

1) It is quite easily denied. I for one, am denying it.

2) We would exist.

3) We already have made a 'right pigs ear of it'. Partly due to religion itself ironically.

A religion that says 'love your neighbour as yourself', 'turn the other cheek', 'give them the shirt off your back', 'sell all you have and give it to the poor', whoo 'brought together their wealth and gave it to each as they had need' and to 'pray for those who persecute you is not to blame. We, the people, are to blame.

The same religion that holds responsibility (or a degree of it) for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people, the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race.

It's always the same with the religious. All too quick to preach the merits of their faith (see your above post) yet will never mention the FAR greater amount of repugnant and abhorrent events that occured as a result. Unlike you, I am objective. I will say that religion HAS it's merits, and can be a force for good. However the majority of time, and indeed history, it has caused nothing but pain and suffering.

To be fair I think I have always stated that the Church and Christianity needs to seek forgiveness, the reasons you state above are but a small fraction of those reasons why. The thing that I try to differentiate though is between the Faith and the Person. Christianity as a faith has many many merits!!! HOWEVER it is the way that it has been misinterpreted and misunderstood by people that has led to the many abhorrent things you describe and for which we need to get down on our hands and knees and pray with streams of tears for forgiveness!!!

As a counter balance Christianity also led to the abolition of the slave trade via Jon Newton (the guy who wrote 'Amazing Grace') http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfoCSmw-EaE. Personally my faith stirs up in me strong feelings of fighting for social justice and although not being the healthiest and sportiest of people I'm running hte Cardiff Half Marathon in a months time to help raise money to tackle poverty in the UK. My church actively supports families where parents are having to eat paper to stave off hunger so that they can feed their children or people that are having to do 12 mile round trips by foot in the pouring rain in order to get a free food parcel to feed their family, or others who regularly are scared to go out of their houses for fear of the debt collectors finding them.

1) It is quite easily denied. I for one, am denying it.

2) We would exist.

3) We already have made a 'right pigs ear of it'. Partly due to religion itself ironically.

A religion that says 'love your neighbour as yourself', 'turn the other cheek', 'give them the shirt off your back', 'sell all you have and give it to the poor', whoo 'brought together their wealth and gave it to each as they had need' and to 'pray for those who persecute you is not to blame. We, the people, are to blame.

The same religion that holds responsibility (or a degree of it) for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people, the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race.

It's always the same with the religious. All too quick to preach the merits of their faith (see your above post) yet will never mention the FAR greater amount of repugnant and abhorrent events that occured as a result. Unlike you, I am objective. I will say that religion HAS it's merits, and can be a force for good. However the majority of time, and indeed history, it has caused nothing but pain and suffering.

This.

Whilst I admit that this is deniable, it is my overwhelming feeling that had no religions ever existed (or at least been taken seriously) that humankind would be far, far more advanced than it currently is.

1) It is quite easily denied. I for one, am denying it.

2) We would exist.

3) We already have made a 'right pigs ear of it'. Partly due to religion itself ironically.

A religion that says 'love your neighbour as yourself', 'turn the other cheek', 'give them the shirt off your back', 'sell all you have and give it to the poor', whoo 'brought together their wealth and gave it to each as they had need' and to 'pray for those who persecute you is not to blame. We, the people, are to blame.

The same religion that holds responsibility (or a degree of it) for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people, the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race.

It's always the same with the religious. All too quick to preach the merits of their faith (see your above post) yet will never mention the FAR greater amount of repugnant and abhorrent events that occured as a result. Unlike you, I am objective. I will say that religion HAS it's merits, and can be a force for good. However the majority of time, and indeed history, it has caused nothing but pain and suffering.

To be fair I think I have always stated that the Church and Christianity needs to seek forgiveness, the reasons you state above are but a small fraction of those reasons why. The thing that I try to differentiate though is between the Faith and the Person. Christianity as a faith has many many merits!!! HOWEVER it is the way that it has been misinterpreted and misunderstood by the believers themselves that has led to the many abhorrent things you describe and for which we need to get down on our hands and knees and pray with streams of tears for forgiveness!!!

As a counter balance Christianity also led to the abolition of the slave trade via Jon Newton (the guy who wrote 'Amazing Grace') http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfoCSmw-EaE. Personally my faith stirs up in me strong feelings of fighting for social justice and although not being the healthiest and sportiest of people I'm running hte Cardiff Half Marathon in a months time to help raise money to tackle poverty in the UK. My church actively supports families where parents are having to eat paper to stave off hunger so that they can feed their children or people that are having to do 12 mile round trips by foot in the pouring rain in order to get a free food parcel to feed their family, or others who regularly are scared to go out of their houses for fear of the debt collectors finding them.

1) It is quite easily denied. I for one, am denying it.

2) We would exist.

3) We already have made a 'right pigs ear of it'. Partly due to religion itself ironically.

A religion that says 'love your neighbour as yourself', 'turn the other cheek', 'give them the shirt off your back', 'sell all you have and give it to the poor', whoo 'brought together their wealth and gave it to each as they had need' and to 'pray for those who persecute you is not to blame. We, the people, are to blame.

The same religion that holds responsibility (or a degree of it) for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people, the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race.

It's always the same with the religious. All too quick to preach the merits of their faith (see your above post) yet will never mention the FAR greater amount of repugnant and abhorrent events that occured as a result. Unlike you, I am objective. I will say that religion HAS it's merits, and can be a force for good. However the majority of time, and indeed history, it has caused nothing but pain and suffering.

To be fair I think I have always stated that the Church and Christianity needs to seek forgiveness, the reasons you state above are but a small fraction of those reasons why. The thing that I try to differentiate though is between the Faith and the Person. Christianity as a faith has many many merits!!! HOWEVER it is the way that it has been misinterpreted and misunderstood by people that has led to the many abhorrent things you describe and for which we need to get down on our hands and knees and pray with streams of tears for forgiveness!!!

As a counter balance Christianity also led to the abolition of the slave trade via Jon Newton (the guy who wrote 'Amazing Grace') http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfoCSmw-EaE. Personally my faith stirs up in me strong feelings of fighting for social justice and although not being the healthiest and sportiest of people I'm running hte Cardiff Half Marathon in a months time to help raise money to tackle poverty in the UK. My church actively supports families where parents are having to eat paper to stave off hunger so that they can feed their children or people that are having to do 12 mile round trips by foot in the pouring rain in order to get a free food parcel to feed their family, or others who regularly are scared to go out of their houses for fear of the debt collectors finding them.

This, highlighted, is just about being a kind and decent human being, religion shouldn't, or isn't, needed for people to feel this way.

1) It is quite easily denied. I for one, am denying it.

2) We would exist.

3) We already have made a 'right pigs ear of it'. Partly due to religion itself ironically.

A religion that says 'love your neighbour as yourself', 'turn the other cheek', 'give them the shirt off your back', 'sell all you have and give it to the poor', whoo 'brought together their wealth and gave it to each as they had need' and to 'pray for those who persecute you is not to blame. We, the people, are to blame.

The same religion that holds responsibility (or a degree of it) for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, the torture of Gallileo, the repression and maltreatment of women (that's half the human race in other words) and the forced conversion of indigenous people, the African Slave trade, as well as the Third Reich's attempted elimination of the Jewish race.

It's always the same with the religious. All too quick to preach the merits of their faith (see your above post) yet will never mention the FAR greater amount of repugnant and abhorrent events that occured as a result. Unlike you, I am objective. I will say that religion HAS it's merits, and can be a force for good. However the majority of time, and indeed history, it has caused nothing but pain and suffering.

To be fair I think I have always stated that the Church and Christianity needs to seek forgiveness, the reasons you state above are but a small fraction of those reasons why. The thing that I try to differentiate though is between the Faith and the Person. Christianity as a faith has many many merits!!! HOWEVER it is the way that it has been misinterpreted and misunderstood by people that has led to the many abhorrent things you describe and for which we need to get down on our hands and knees and pray with streams of tears for forgiveness!!!

As a counter balance Christianity also led to the abolition of the slave trade via Jon Newton (the guy who wrote 'Amazing Grace') http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfoCSmw-EaE. Personally my faith stirs up in me strong feelings of fighting for social justice and although not being the healthiest and sportiest of people I'm running hte Cardiff Half Marathon in a months time to help raise money to tackle poverty in the UK. My church actively supports families where parents are having to eat paper to stave off hunger so that they can feed their children or people that are having to do 12 mile round trips by foot in the pouring rain in order to get a free food parcel to feed their family, or others who regularly are scared to go out of their houses for fear of the debt collectors finding them.

This, highlighted, is just about being a kind and decent human being, religion shouldn't, or isn't, needed for people to feel this way.

It shouldn't, but I would say it is because of my previous points about the state of humanity etc.

Simply about being a good and charitable person, religion is not needed for that.

Simply about being a good and charitable person, religion is not needed for that.

I would tend to say, that as I've said with regards to the state of humanity, that faith is needed for that. But then again faith also recognises that we can't achieve that perfect position which is where grace and forgiveness comes in. No matter how hard we try we will never live a perfect life without blemish (sin). Only stubbornness would not accept that kind of free gift to in effect say, thanks but no thanks God, I can do this one on my own.

Simply about being a good and charitable person, religion is not needed for that.

I would tend to say, that as I've said with regards to the state of humanity, that faith is needed for that. But then again faith also recognises that we can't achieve that perfect position which is where grace and forgiveness comes in. No matter how hard we try we will never live a perfect life without blemish (sin). Only stubbornness would not accept that kind of free gift to in effect say, thanks but no thanks God, I can do this one on my own.

Faith is certainly not needed for that. Any reasonable person can say that poverty is deplorable and that charity is good. Being coerced into giving/feeling that way by religion defeats the point entirely, as it's then insincere.

Simply about being a good and charitable person, religion is not needed for that.

I would tend to say, that as I've said with regards to the state of humanity, that faith is needed for that. But then again faith also recognises that we can't achieve that perfect position which is where grace and forgiveness comes in. No matter how hard we try we will never live a perfect life without blemish (sin). Only stubbornness would not accept that kind of free gift to in effect say, thanks but no thanks God, I can do this one on my own.

Faith is certainly not needed for that. Any reasonable person can say that poverty is deplorable and that charity is good. Being coerced into giving/feeling that way by religion defeats the point entirely, as it's then insincere.

Coerced is a crude word, I would say more that my faith compels me to do it, it drives me on, sustains my passion to see and make a difference in the world. NO WAY would I be running 13 miles in 4 weeks time otherwise, believe me!!!

The way I view God, who He is, His compassion, His love must lead to a reflection of that in how I live my life. I cannot do anything but do that; when you read all He has done and accomplished and as I said previously, seen the things He has done and heard Him speak directly into situations that even blow my mind. When I talk about the forgiveness and grace earlier how could I not live a life which is a reflective response to that???

Surely you can't call that insincere

Simply about being a good and charitable person, religion is not needed for that.

I would tend to say, that as I've said with regards to the state of humanity, that faith is needed for that. But then again faith also recognises that we can't achieve that perfect position which is where grace and forgiveness comes in. No matter how hard we try we will never live a perfect life without blemish (sin). Only stubbornness would not accept that kind of free gift to in effect say, thanks but no thanks God, I can do this one on my own.

Faith is certainly not needed for that. Any reasonable person can say that poverty is deplorable and that charity is good. Being coerced into giving/feeling that way by religion defeats the point entirely, as it's then insincere.

Coerced is a crude word, I would say more that my faith compels me to do it, it drives me on, sustains my passion to see and make a difference in the world. NO WAY would I be running 13 miles in 4 weeks time otherwise, believe me!!!

The way I view God, who He is, His compassion, His love must lead to a reflection of that in how I live my life. I cannot do anything but do that; when you read all He has done and accomplished and as I said previously, seen the things He has done and heard Him speak directly into situations that even blow my mind. When I talk about the forgiveness and grace earlier how could I not live a life which is a reflective response to that???

Surely you can't call that insincere

Fair play to you for doing your bit for charity but for me I agree with Ohgaa that if the sole reason for you doing charity work or helping others is down to God then it is a selfish action because the only reason you do it is so you go to heaven. People should do it regardless and with no outside persuassion. Honestly would you do charity and good work for God if it didnt neccesarily mean going to heaven?

Simply about being a good and charitable person, religion is not needed for that.

I would tend to say, that as I've said with regards to the state of humanity, that faith is needed for that. But then again faith also recognises that we can't achieve that perfect position which is where grace and forgiveness comes in. No matter how hard we try we will never live a perfect life without blemish (sin). Only stubbornness would not accept that kind of free gift to in effect say, thanks but no thanks God, I can do this one on my own.

Faith is certainly not needed for that. Any reasonable person can say that poverty is deplorable and that charity is good. Being coerced into giving/feeling that way by religion defeats the point entirely, as it's then insincere.

Coerced is a crude word, I would say more that my faith compels me to do it, it drives me on, sustains my passion to see and make a difference in the world. NO WAY would I be running 13 miles in 4 weeks time otherwise, believe me!!!

The way I view God, who He is, His compassion, His love must lead to a reflection of that in how I live my life. I cannot do anything but do that; when you read all He has done and accomplished and as I said previously, seen the things He has done and heard Him speak directly into situations that even blow my mind. When I talk about the forgiveness and grace earlier how could I not live a life which is a reflective response to that???

Surely you can't call that insincere

Fair play to you for doing your bit for charity but for me I agree with Ohgaa that if the sole reason for you doing charity work or helping others is down to God then it is a selfish action because the only reason you do it is so you go to heaven. People should do it regardless and with no outside persuassion. Honestly would you do charity and good work for God if it didnt neccesarily mean going to heaven?

The Bible tells me I'm going to heaven anyway. Going back to this grace I was talking about; apart from just accepting it well then there's nothing I can do to earn it and likewise nothing I can do to lose it. So I'm not doing this run so I can go to heaven as by doing it doesn't mean anything of the sort. I'm doing it because of a combination of things; who God is and the love and grace he has shown me already, this undoubtedly (I believe) informs my morality and sets the standard and tone by which I live my life, therefore to see what goes on in the world today breaks God's heart and mine too, it being something we both find deplorable. Jesus said in Luke "the Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has appointed me to preach good news to the afflicted.... bind up the broken hearts ... set the captives free and proclaim the year of the Lord's favour". God the invites us to be part of that redemptive and restorative plan and based on what He has done and what I have seen I can't help but want to be part of it and say a resounding "yes"

Simply about being a good and charitable person, religion is not needed for that.

I would tend to say, that as I've said with regards to the state of humanity, that faith is needed for that. But then again faith also recognises that we can't achieve that perfect position which is where grace and forgiveness comes in. No matter how hard we try we will never live a perfect life without blemish (sin). Only stubbornness would not accept that kind of free gift to in effect say, thanks but no thanks God, I can do this one on my own.

Faith is certainly not needed for that. Any reasonable person can say that poverty is deplorable and that charity is good. Being coerced into giving/feeling that way by religion defeats the point entirely, as it's then insincere.

Coerced is a crude word, I would say more that my faith compels me to do it, it drives me on, sustains my passion to see and make a difference in the world. NO WAY would I be running 13 miles in 4 weeks time otherwise, believe me!!!

The way I view God, who He is, His compassion, His love must lead to a reflection of that in how I live my life. I cannot do anything but do that; when you read all He has done and accomplished and as I said previously, seen the things He has done and heard Him speak directly into situations that even blow my mind. When I talk about the forgiveness and grace earlier how could I not live a life which is a reflective response to that???

Surely you can't call that insincere

Fair play to you for doing your bit for charity but for me I agree with Ohgaa that if the sole reason for you doing charity work or helping others is down to God then it is a selfish action because the only reason you do it is so you go to heaven. People should do it regardless and with no outside persuassion. Honestly would you do charity and good work for God if it didnt neccesarily mean going to heaven?

The Bible tells me I'm going to heaven anyway. Going back to this grace I was talking about; apart from just accepting it well then there's nothing I can do to earn it and likewise nothing I can do to lose it. So I'm not doing this run so I can go to heaven as by doing it doesn't mean anything of the sort. I'm doing it because of a combination of things; who God is and the love and grace he has shown me already, this undoubtedly (I believe) informs my morality and sets the standard and tone by which I live my life, therefore to see what goes on in the world today breaks God's heart and mine too, it being something we both find deplorable. Jesus said in Luke "the Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has appointed me to preach good news to the afflicted.... bind up the broken hearts ... set the captives free and proclaim the year of the Lord's favour". God the invites us to be part of that redemptive and restorative plan and based on what He has done and what I have seen I can't help but want to be part of it and say a resounding "yes"

But thats still doing it cause someone is telling you but fair enough if God motivates you to do it Im not going to insult you at the end of the day your still doing something for Charity

I'd like to read all of this thread, but I just havent got it in me at this time of night

All I know is,

Religion is fiction,
and Homosexuality is acceptable.

Betty Bowers explains it all...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

In a nutshell, according to the bible acceptable marriage is between one man and his sister, and a rapist, and a kitchen condiment, a gal who’s kidnapped and raped, a few more women, an adulterer, and a pack of raped whores, 700 wives, 300 concubines, and the help, and a son who has murdered his brother.

But it is NOT between one man and another man. Because, well, that would be immoral.