Bigot

I would like to think I'm a decent human being certainly open minded and someone who has lived by a set of values that have helped make me the person I am today.

I accept that many of the values by which I have lived my life I learned through the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church when I was a child. I learned very early in life to challenge the existance of God and one day in catechism when we were being taught the beatitudes why I couldn't see God. The beatitudes are the 8 blessing giving by Jesus during the sermon on the mount the best known would probably be "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the world". Another blessing is "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God", now I even though I was 6 at the time I believed I was pure in heart so I asked the priest why couldn't I see God. He smacked me around the head with a wooden coat hanger and called me a blasphemy. I very quickly became agnostic I want to believe there is a god but it's impossible for anyone to prove one way or another that god exists.

Earlier in the thread I posted a quote from the book of leviticus which denounces homosexuality, I did this to promote debate only. Leviticus is based on the words of Jehovah, Hebrew God, given to Moses 1000 years before the birth of Christ andare a set of standards by which Jehovah wanted the people of Isreal to live their life by.

It does beg the question that if same sex relationships existed over 3000 years ago how can anyone reasonable argue that it is not a normal "Behaviour" of mankind. For me it is not possible and is why I have no problem with same sex relationships but I do draw the line when it comes to allowing same sex couples to marry. Does this make me a bigot? according to brother Clegg it does well f**k him I say.

I accept 100% that same sex couples MUST have the right to make a formal commitment to one another, indeed they can today through a civil partnership, so what is so important about "Marriage" Can anyone seriously see any religious faith formalising a marriage ceremony for same sex couples. No. And that's the real world.

That is why it is important for the state to provide a means by which same sex partners can commit to one another and Britain has done just that.

Namby Pamby Liberal politics spouted by f***kwits like brother Clegg says we need more and anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

Highly offensive bollocks to many myself included.




I

Eurgh, such a cringeworthy thread.

Gotta agree here.Its like the religous types that come knocking at your door-you tell them where to go but they always come back for more.This thread is the internet version.

If you don't want to talk about it then don't come on the thread?!?!?!? You're complaining we're knocking on the door but this is the equivalent of you coming to find us on the street!!! lol

I take your point so could you direct me to some Mormons that like talking football.

No but I had a couple knock my door who were more than happy to talk about Soccer.

20-30 years ago there was similar 'uproar' regarding inter-racial marriage. History is cyclical, and in years to come this debate will be simply viewed as a reminder of the times.

I don't see the issue with gay/equal marriage personally. The church doesn't have to get involved as marriage is sanctioned by the state anyhow. It's all part of the evolution of society.

Sanctioned by the state, but built on the religious foundation of Christianity

I don't see the issue with gay/equal marriage personally. The church doesn't have to get involved as marriage is sanctioned by the state anyhow. It's all part of the evolution of society.

Sanctioned by the state, but built on the religious foundation of Christianity

The majority seem to be turning away from it, though - empty churches and all that.

20-30 years ago there was similar 'uproar' regarding inter-racial marriage. History is cyclical, and in years to come this debate will be simply viewed as a reminder of the times.

I must of missed that


When exactly did a church refuse to marry an inter - racial couple. Unless of course you are in clan territory and then your really are amongst bigots.

I don't see the issue with gay/equal marriage personally. The church doesn't have to get involved as marriage is sanctioned by the state anyhow. It's all part of the evolution of society.

Sanctioned by the state, but built on the religious foundation of Christianity

A foundation that less and less people are adhering to, and thus marriage should evolve concurrently with these attitudes.

20-30 years ago there was similar 'uproar' regarding inter-racial marriage. History is cyclical, and in years to come this debate will be simply viewed as a reminder of the times.

I must of missed that


When exactly did a church refuse to marry an inter - racial couple. Unless of course you are in clan territory and then your really are amongst bigots.

They didn't of course, however post-WW2 with the increase of immigrants there was much hostility regarding inter-racial relationships. Most of which originated from the religious rhetoric of the time.

The church has always been the last to evolve.

2000 years mary came home and rather than tell jospeh she's been playing away from home, she concocted a little lie that really has now gotten out of hand.

I don't see the issue with gay/equal marriage personally. The church doesn't have to get involved as marriage is sanctioned by the state anyhow. It's all part of the evolution of society.

Sanctioned by the state, but built on the religious foundation of Christianity

The majority seem to be turning away from it, though - empty churches and all that.

True, and as a Christian we've only got ourselves to blame! Hopefully things will change soon enough though : )

What this debate does raise though is an interesting question as to where the Church is positioned or even can position itself to be a moral authority for a non-religious society or whether it is a position for the believers themselves by exemplifying (as best we can as none of us are perfect) what God has called us to. Around a 100 years ago then I say the Church could put itself in that position or morally informing society as to be honest it constituted a large percentage of that society, but at the minute (mainly due to our attitude and behaviour since that period which has led to our decline) that it becomes very difficult for us to do that. Though then again you have the counter argument that the only Christian hypocrite is one that claims to do nothing wrong and maybe we have lost through our moralisations the radical nature of God's transforming grace. Perhaps we should look at issues like this from the point that we are all 'fallen' or 'less than who we were intended/designed to be' and we all have to work on this together.

So in effect your 'sin' is not my 'sin' but we are both equally as bad at this and we have to help each other to beat it. The fantastic news that we all have though is that the Grace of God says we are forgiven regardless of what it is and that we can hold hope to the day when there will be 'no more sickness, no more pain, no more suffering and no more death' all of which are the tangible ramifications of sin.

Do I believe Gay unions/marriages/relationships are wrong???? Yes, but then there's a heck of a lot of things that i do wrong which aren't in the public domain but that I need to hold my head in shame. Can I judge them???? Not practically or biblically. But the amazing thing that I believe is that I am forgiven, which is great! FANTASTIC! And rather than judge based on the wrong WE have done, I'd rather invite them to be part of the FORGIVEN community that I am : )

20-30 years ago there was similar 'uproar' regarding inter-racial marriage. History is cyclical, and in years to come this debate will be simply viewed as a reminder of the times.

I must of missed that


When exactly did a church refuse to marry an inter - racial couple. Unless of course you are in clan territory and then your really are amongst bigots.

believe it or not, while in Bible college there was a person who was not happy at one inter-racial couple getting together. This was early 2000s. Can't see anything to re-enforce their views from my opinions

If you don't like the thread, don't read it.

If you don't like gays, don't have sex with other men.

It literally is as easy as that.

I don't see the issue with gay/equal marriage personally. The church doesn't have to get involved as marriage is sanctioned by the state anyhow. It's all part of the evolution of society.

Sanctioned by the state, but built on the religious foundation of Christianity

The majority seem to be turning away from it, though - empty churches and all that.

True, and as a Christian we've only got ourselves to blame! Hopefully things will change soon enough though : )

What this debate does raise though is an interesting question as to where the Church is positioned or even can position itself to be a moral authority for a non-religious society or whether it is a position for the believers themselves by exemplifying (as best we can as none of us are perfect) what God has called us to. Around a 100 years ago then I say the Church could put itself in that position or morally informing society as to be honest it constituted a large percentage of that society, but at the minute (mainly due to our attitude and behaviour since that period which has led to our decline) that it becomes very difficult for us to do that. Though then again you have the counter argument that the only Christian hypocrite is one that claims to do nothing wrong and maybe we have lost through our moralisations the radical nature of God's transforming grace. Perhaps we should look at issues like this from the point that we are all 'fallen' or 'less than who we were intended/designed to be' and we all have to work on this together.

So in effect your 'sin' is not my 'sin' but we are both equally as bad at this and we have to help each other to beat it. The fantastic news that we all have though is that the Grace of God says we are forgiven regardless of what it is and that we can hold hope to the day when there will be 'no more sickness, no more pain, no more suffering and no more death' all of which are the tangible ramifications of sin.

Do I believe Gay unions/marriages/relationships are wrong???? Yes, but then there's a heck of a lot of things that i do wrong which aren't in the public domain but that I need to hold my head in shame. Can I judge them???? Not practically or biblically. But the amazing thing that I believe is that I am forgiven, which is great! FANTASTIC! And rather than judge based on the wrong WE have done, I'd rather invite them to be part of the FORGIVEN community that I am : )

Are you suggesting that they need to be 'forgiven'?

20-30 years ago there was similar 'uproar' regarding inter-racial marriage. History is cyclical, and in years to come this debate will be simply viewed as a reminder of the times.

I must of missed that


When exactly did a church refuse to marry an inter - racial couple. Unless of course you are in clan territory and then your really are amongst bigots.

They didn't of course, however post-WW2 with the increase of immigrants there was much hostility regarding inter-racial relationships. Most of which originated from the religious rhetoric of the time.

The church has always been the last to evolve.

Shit I missed all that religious rhetoric as well. I must have been pissed or something.


I accept 100% that the church or any religious faith are always the slowest to evolve and for me that together with higher educational standards has caused the decline in church attendances.

You are obviously an intelligent guy so when do you think the Roman Catholic Church will allow same sex marriages ?

As a Roman Catholic and as someone who has challenged much of the doctrine of the church I will say never, not even if hell freezes over first. To do so would be to deny the very doctrines the church has been built on.

I agree, never. Cannot see it happening at any point.

The Catholic Church is a repugnant institution anyhow, its caused enough deaths and suffering that the tears of some British homosexuals won't concern them at all.

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Don't they say something like they aren't allowed to be "practising" homosexuals? In other words, they can be homosexual, but not actually have sex. I think that's the approach to the issue.

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Don't they say something like they aren't allowed to be "practising" homosexuals? In other words, they can be homosexual, but not actually have sex. I think that's the approach to the issue.

But I still dont the see the full problem with it. I know Christianity is based on that to be married is also about producing children but that cant apply to everyone for various reasons, and surely gay men or women are allowed to produce children from IVF or surrogacy? Or are those methods also frowned upon by the church

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Don't they say something like they aren't allowed to be "practising" homosexuals? In other words, they can be homosexual, but not actually have sex. I think that's the approach to the issue.

But I still dont the see the full problem with it. I know Christianity is based on that to be married is also about producing children but that cant apply to everyone for various reasons, and surely gay men or women are allowed to produce children from IVF or surrogacy? Or are those methods also frowned upon by the church

Hey, we aren't meant to understand their logic, we are meant to just follow, which is the purpose of all religions, in my opinion. Don't think, just follow.

I don't see the issue with gay/equal marriage personally. The church doesn't have to get involved as marriage is sanctioned by the state anyhow. It's all part of the evolution of society.

Sanctioned by the state, but built on the religious foundation of Christianity

The majority seem to be turning away from it, though - empty churches and all that.

True, and as a Christian we've only got ourselves to blame! Hopefully things will change soon enough though : )

What this debate does raise though is an interesting question as to where the Church is positioned or even can position itself to be a moral authority for a non-religious society or whether it is a position for the believers themselves by exemplifying (as best we can as none of us are perfect) what God has called us to. Around a 100 years ago then I say the Church could put itself in that position or morally informing society as to be honest it constituted a large percentage of that society, but at the minute (mainly due to our attitude and behaviour since that period which has led to our decline) that it becomes very difficult for us to do that. Though then again you have the counter argument that the only Christian hypocrite is one that claims to do nothing wrong and maybe we have lost through our moralisations the radical nature of God's transforming grace. Perhaps we should look at issues like this from the point that we are all 'fallen' or 'less than who we were intended/designed to be' and we all have to work on this together.

So in effect your 'sin' is not my 'sin' but we are both equally as bad at this and we have to help each other to beat it. The fantastic news that we all have though is that the Grace of God says we are forgiven regardless of what it is and that we can hold hope to the day when there will be 'no more sickness, no more pain, no more suffering and no more death' all of which are the tangible ramifications of sin.

Do I believe Gay unions/marriages/relationships are wrong???? Yes, but then there's a heck of a lot of things that i do wrong which aren't in the public domain but that I need to hold my head in shame. Can I judge them???? Not practically or biblically. But the amazing thing that I believe is that I am forgiven, which is great! FANTASTIC! And rather than judge based on the wrong WE have done, I'd rather invite them to be part of the FORGIVEN community that I am : )

Are you suggesting that they need to be 'forgiven'?

As much as I do

What for exactly?

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Don't they say something like they aren't allowed to be "practising" homosexuals? In other words, they can be homosexual, but not actually have sex. I think that's the approach to the issue.

But I still dont the see the full problem with it. I know Christianity is based on that to be married is also about producing children but that cant apply to everyone for various reasons, and surely gay men or women are allowed to produce children from IVF or surrogacy? Or are those methods also frowned upon by the church

Hey, we aren't meant to understand their logic, we are meant to just follow, which is the purpose of all religions, in my opinion. Don't think, just follow.

No necessarily. I would actively encourage thinking. God gave us a brain and reasoning after all

What for exactly?

Me?

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Don't they say something like they aren't allowed to be "practising" homosexuals? In other words, they can be homosexual, but not actually have sex. I think that's the approach to the issue.

But I still dont the see the full problem with it. I know Christianity is based on that to be married is also about producing children but that cant apply to everyone for various reasons, and surely gay men or women are allowed to produce children from IVF or surrogacy? Or are those methods also frowned upon by the church

Not that I am aware of. You'd have to go back to the root issue; to use IVF etc in the form of a heterosexual couple is to over-come and illness or physical infirmity which is in line with the order of our created nature. To use it for homosexual couples would/might not be considered in the same way.

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Don't they say something like they aren't allowed to be "practising" homosexuals? In other words, they can be homosexual, but not actually have sex. I think that's the approach to the issue.

That tends to be the approach. As people have said, its difficult to handle how you feel but we all have far more control over what we do. To use another example; I'm a married man, it doesn't stop me find other women attractive, but I am in control over how I handle those emotions, to indulge them would be to commit adultery which is obviously wrong.

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Don't they say something like they aren't allowed to be "practising" homosexuals? In other words, they can be homosexual, but not actually have sex. I think that's the approach to the issue.

But I still dont the see the full problem with it. I know Christianity is based on that to be married is also about producing children but that cant apply to everyone for various reasons, and surely gay men or women are allowed to produce children from IVF or surrogacy? Or are those methods also frowned upon by the church

Not that I am aware of. You'd have to go back to the root issue; to use IVF etc in the form of a heterosexual couple is to over-come and illness or physical infirmity which is in line with the order of our created nature. To use it for homosexual couples would/might not be considered in the same way.

Thats a fair point but I think anybody should be denied children regardless of their sexual prefrence. And therefore I think that they should be allowed to be married.

Another point if gay people are not allowed to be married because it is a religous practice does that therefore apply to Athiests or Agnostics?

What for exactly?

Me?

Yes, are you suggesting that they should be forgiven for being homosexual?

Can I ask is it impossible for someone who is gay to be able to be a practicing Christian? Afterall alot of Christians dont follow the Bible literally as many parts of it are outdated then surely you can say the same for the part that says gay people are fobidden?

Don't they say something like they aren't allowed to be "practising" homosexuals? In other words, they can be homosexual, but not actually have sex. I think that's the approach to the issue.

But I still dont the see the full problem with it. I know Christianity is based on that to be married is also about producing children but that cant apply to everyone for various reasons, and surely gay men or women are allowed to produce children from IVF or surrogacy? Or are those methods also frowned upon by the church

Hey, we aren't meant to understand their logic, we are meant to just follow, which is the purpose of all religions, in my opinion. Don't think, just follow.

Ain't that a fact.

What for exactly?

Me?

Yes, are you suggesting that they should be forgiven for being homosexual?

We all need to be forgiven, its the human condition. The state of Sin is that we have decided to do things are own way rather than God's way; all of us, regardless of who has tried to live the best life or has conducted themselves in an appalling manner. We all need forgiveness, straight or gay

But in my post I meant practising homosexuals.

I agree, never. Cannot see it happening at any point.

The Catholic Church is a repugnant institution anyhow, its caused enough deaths and suffering that the tears of some British homosexuals won't concern them at all.

I agree and the dogmatic attitude of the RCC on issues such as birth control and abortion are again in my opinion a disgrace.


The thing is I could be homosexual and a RC all at the same time, because to be forgiven all I would need to do is go to confession, confess my sin, do me penance and go right back to my sinful ways until my next confession.

My wife took the pill even though it was completely against RC doctrine but she confessed did her penance and went on taking the pill.

Things like this led me to question so much of what I had been doctrinated with and it does beg the question if I was gay and my priest knew through my confession why couldn't he marry me and my same sex partner. Afterall he could confess his sin in marrying me do his penance and everything is OK.


Makes bollocks of the whole thing doesn't it.