" I Think We Need To Be Pragmatic About This Rebranding "

I think one of the biggest problems with this whole rebranding debate is that it has been badly mismanaged by the club and by that I mean communicating the rationale behind the reasons why rebranding is required.

One of the biggest misconceptions in my opinion is that changing colours and the club badge will bring enough shirt sales in Asia to leave the club debt free. This is clearly nonsense and in fairness to the club, TG in particular, this has never been said in any formal communication by the club but is repeated and repeated again and again on this board as if it's fact. It's not and never will be.

The rationale as communicated by TG has always been about " Exploiting and maximising commercial revenues in international markets, which it is hoped in turn will bring success to the club locally, whilst attracting new partners and investors"

To me it's crystal clear that any new revenues received as a result of rebranding be it from commercial sales, sponsership (new partners) or new investments would help reduce monthly operating losses and nothing else.

The monies to clear historic debts are currently coming from one source, Vincent Tan, and make absolutely no mistake about that. Currently any funds required to build a new training ground (owned by the club), the development of the ground and the team are also coming from Vincent Tan. All of this with the promise that any loans will be converted to equity or shares in the company and not held on the balance sheet as debt. The only fly in the ointment is Langston as that has to be finalised to secure this investment from VT.

I have been watching the City for 47 years and it hasn't always been good, believe me, but the last 10 years have without doubt been the best with last season being one of the very best. Why? because very few of us believed we could have had such a season where we had a new fantastic manager, a team who played for us and gave it everything they had and who will ever forget that performance in the Carling Cup Final. Also it was the first season I can remember, probably since Eddie May was manager, where the manager, players and fans were as one and it was absolutely fantastic. Whatever happens we simply MUST not lose that feeling this season.

I can remember the 1985/86 season which for me was the worst in my time watching the club, a season where we lost to both Newport County and Swansea City in the Freight Rover Trophy, lost to Swansea City in the League Cup, and eventually got relegated to the old division 4 for the first time in all the years I watched the club.

I remember the March fictures that season where we took only 2 of the 21 points available, the month started badly when we lost away at Derby but it was 9 days and 4 fixtures which really sealed our fate. Losing 5-0 away at Bolton before successive home defeats to Rotherham and Plymouth before finally losing away at Swansea. I was at all those games and it was hard to watch but that's what you have to do as a fan watch the team through good and bad times, blue or red.

We had been relegated the season before but after another season of total shit football we were relegated again and few if any of the fans back in those days had much reason to be confident about the times ahead.

But there was never any doubt in my mind that I would renew my season ticket and when I went down the club there was no big queue, in fact the girl in the office told me the club had sold less than 700 Season Tickets.

It is almost impossible to compare the club today to the club back then except that our owners today have a plan, back in 1986 the owners had no idea or cash to change things around. Today our owners are asking us to accept a big change but one they hope will secure a positive future for the club. surely that's what we all want.

In the 47 years I have been watching the Bluebirds I have never known an owner who is prepared to put this much money into our club and with the bank balance to back up his promises.

This is why I can be pragmatic about the proposals to rebrand, and believe me I would love to see the club continue in Blue, but unless some local businessman can come up with this level of financial commitment where are the options.

In my opinion it will take at least 2 years before we see the financial benefits of this rebranding on the balance sheet and at the end of the day that will be more important than any headline signings in this transfer window.

I'm sure some may brand me a "Soul Seller" or "plastic" I'm neither I'm just being pragmatic. Personally it hurt me more leaving Ninian Park for the last time because I knew we would never return. Changing shirt colour does not have to be forever and that's how I look at this but there are still things we can do to remind our owners that they have not won the hearts and minds of the supporters with thus rebranding.

Firstly we should all support Carl in his efforts to get the club to reconsider the design of the new club crest, secondly we should request the club plays one home match next season in our away Blue kit, this is allowed under Football League rules, and would give us a fantastic opportunity to show how we feel about putting the Blue back into Cardiff City.

Whatever the colour of shirt I cannot wait for 18th August to watch the next season under Malkay Mackay and of course that wonderful group of players who gave us everything they had last season. Hopefully by that time all of our fans will feel that sense of unity we enjoyed last season with Malkay and the players.

If Carsberg done posters......

I think one of the biggest problems with this whole rebranding debate is that it has been badly mismanaged by the club and by that I mean communicating the rationale behind the reasons why rebranding is required.

One of the biggest misconceptions in my opinion is that changing colours and the club badge will bring enough shirt sales in Asia to leave the club debt free. This is clearly nonsense and in fairness to the club, TG in particular, this has never been said in any formal communication by the club but is repeated and repeated again and again on this board as if it's fact. It's not and never will be.

The rationale as communicated by TG has always been about " Exploiting and maximising commercial revenues in international markets, which it is hoped in turn will bring success to the club locally, whilst attracting new partners and investors"

To me it's crystal clear that any new revenues received as a result of rebranding be it from commercial sales, sponsership (new partners) or new investments would help reduce monthly operating losses and nothing else.

The monies to clear historic debts are currently coming from one source, Vincent Tan, and make absolutely no mistake about that. Currently any funds required to build a new training ground (owned by the club), the development of the ground and the team are also coming from Vincent Tan. All of this with the promise that any loans will be converted to equity or shares in the company and not held on the balance sheet as debt. The only fly in the ointment is Langston as that has to be finalised to secure this investment from VT.

I have been watching the City for 47 years and it hasn't always been good, believe me, but the last 10 years have without doubt been the best with last season being one of the very best. Why? because very few of us believed we could have had such a season where we had a new fantastic manager, a team who played for us and gave it everything they had and who will ever forget that performance in the Carling Cup Final. Also it was the first season I can remember, probably since Eddie May was manager, where the manager, players and fans were as one and it was absolutely fantastic. Whatever happens we simply MUST not lose that feeling this season.

I can remember the 1985/86 season which for me was the worst in my time watching the club, a season where we lost to both Newport County and Swansea City in the Freight Rover Trophy, lost to Swansea City in the League Cup, and eventually got relegated to the old division 4 for the first time in all the years I watched the club.

I remember the March fictures that season where we took only 2 of the 21 points available, the month started badly when we lost away at Derby but it was 9 days and 4 fixtures which really sealed our fate. Losing 5-0 away at Bolton before successive home defeats to Rotherham and Plymouth before finally losing away at Swansea. I was at all those games and it was hard to watch but that's what you have to do as a fan watch the team through good and bad times, blue or red.

We had been relegated the season before but after another season of total shit football we were relegated again and few if any of the fans back in those days had much reason to be confident about the times ahead.

But there was never any doubt in my mind that I would renew my season ticket and when I went down the club there was no big queue, in fact the girl in the office told me the club had sold less than 700 Season Tickets.

It is almost impossible to compare the club today to the club back then except that our owners today have a plan, back in 1986 the owners had no idea or cash to change things around. Today our owners are asking us to accept a big change but one they hope will secure a positive future for the club. surely that's what we all want.

In the 47 years I have been watching the Bluebirds I have never known an owner who is prepared to put this much money into our club and with the bank balance to back up his promises.

This is why I can be pragmatic about the proposals to rebrand, and believe me I would love to see the club continue in Blue, but unless some local businessman can come up with this level of financial commitment where are the options.

In my opinion it will take at least 2 years before we see the financial benefits of this rebranding on the balance sheet and at the end of the day that will be more important than any headline signings in this transfer window.

I'm sure some may brand me a "Soul Seller" or "plastic" I'm neither I'm just being pragmatic. Personally it hurt me more leaving Ninian Park for the last time because I knew we would never return. Changing shirt colour does not have to be forever and that's how I look at this but there are still things we can do to remind our owners that they have not won the hearts and minds of the supporters with thus rebranding.

Firstly we should all support Carl in his efforts to get the club to reconsider the design of the new club crest, secondly we should request the club plays one home match next season in our away Blue kit, this is allowed under Football League rules, and would give us a fantastic opportunity to show how we feel about putting the Blue back into Cardiff City.

Whatever the colour of shirt I cannot wait for 18th August to watch the next season under Malkay Mackay and of course that wonderful group of players who gave us everything they had last season. Hopefully by that time all of our fans will feel that sense of unity we enjoyed last season with Malkay and the players.

Post of the year!!

Sticky sticky!

Top post as always

Great post,well written,echos the thoughts of many

MAKE THIS A STICKY!

Fantastic and sensible post by Castleblue.

We need something done about that badge...

I too have been a season ticket holder every year since 1977.
My first match was 1959/1960 - Yes, I saw GRAHAM Moore score before we were promoted to Division One!
We (as fans ) were desperate for Julian Hodge, Frank Malony, Clive Sullivan ... anyone
to back the potential of our club...
Only a few of us remember the Aldershot game in 1990 (?) in the snow which many genuinely thought was our last ever match.
I NEVER want that again

my time getting less because of my age, but I fear that all our time is running out as the sport changes.
This is not his club, my club, our club, but everyone's club: past, present and future.
And the most important is the future.
We are not selling OUT, we are selling IN.

I too have been a season ticket holder every year since 1977.
My first match was 1959/1960 - Yes, I saw GRAHAM Moore score before we were promoted to Division One!
We (as fans ) were desperate for Julian Hodge, Frank Malony, Clive Sullivan ... anyone
to back the potential of our club...
Only a few of us remember the Aldershot game in 1990 (?) in the snow which many genuinely thought was last ever match.
I NEVER want that again

my time getting less because of my age, but I fear that all our time is running out as the sport changes.
This is not his club, my club, our club, but everyone's club: past, present and future.
And the most important is the future.
We are not selling OUT, we are selling IN.

Very good point Sir.

Top post

Castle my only gripe with you is that you don't post enough.

I too have been a season ticket holder every year since 1977.
My first match was 1959/1960 - Yes, I saw GRAHAM Moore score before we were promoted to Division One!
We (as fans ) were desperate for Julian Hodge, Frank Malony, Clive Sullivan ... anyone
to back the potential of our club...
Only a few of us remember the Aldershot game in 1990 (?) in the snow which many genuinely thought was our last ever match.
I NEVER want that again

my time getting less because of my age, but I fear that all our time is running out as the sport changes.
This is not his club, my club, our club, but everyone's club: past, present and future.
And the most important is the future.
We are not selling OUT, we are selling IN.

There was also the recent winding up orders in 2009/10 which took us to the brink of extinction.

I just want to put all that crap behind us and start the new era of the Fair Play Rules by hitting the ground running.

Play our cards right and this club will again have a golden age which will for the second time in a century include the 20's decade.

Finally someone has a brain!

Top,Sensible post!

xXxX FaNtaSTic PoST xx 10/10 m8


this is regurgitated from what others have said about caution and sensibility

Top post castle, i think this is the way most sensible/loyal supporters feel nobody wants to see us play in red but we have still got to get behind the team and manager

Excellent post, & one that mirrors my sentiments exactly.

And it needs to be said.It was spoken with as much passion for the club as anyone on here-bar none and with a lot less self importance.I'd listen to this man even he was the most ardent blue-only supporter.

I think one of the biggest problems with this whole rebranding debate is that it has been badly mismanaged by the club and by that I mean communicating the rationale behind the reasons why rebranding is required.

One of the biggest misconceptions in my opinion is that changing colours and the club badge will bring enough shirt sales in Asia to leave the club debt free. This is clearly nonsense and in fairness to the club, TG in particular, this has never been said in any formal communication by the club but is repeated and repeated again and again on this board as if it's fact. It's not and never will be.

The rationale as communicated by TG has always been about " Exploiting and maximising commercial revenues in international markets, which it is hoped in turn will bring success to the club locally, whilst attracting new partners and investors"

To me it's crystal clear that any new revenues received as a result of rebranding be it from commercial sales, sponsership (new partners) or new investments would help reduce monthly operating losses and nothing else.

The monies to clear historic debts are currently coming from one source, Vincent Tan, and make absolutely no mistake about that. Currently any funds required to build a new training ground (owned by the club), the development of the ground and the team are also coming from Vincent Tan. All of this with the promise that any loans will be converted to equity or shares in the company and not held on the balance sheet as debt. The only fly in the ointment is Langston as that has to be finalised to secure this investment from VT.

I have been watching the City for 47 years and it hasn't always been good, believe me, but the last 10 years have without doubt been the best with last season being one of the very best. Why? because very few of us believed we could have had such a season where we had a new fantastic manager, a team who played for us and gave it everything they had and who will ever forget that performance in the Carling Cup Final. Also it was the first season I can remember, probably since Eddie May was manager, where the manager, players and fans were as one and it was absolutely fantastic. Whatever happens we simply MUST not lose that feeling this season.

I can remember the 1985/86 season which for me was the worst in my time watching the club, a season where we lost to both Newport County and Swansea City in the Freight Rover Trophy, lost to Swansea City in the League Cup, and eventually got relegated to the old division 4 for the first time in all the years I watched the club.

I remember the March fictures that season where we took only 2 of the 21 points available, the month started badly when we lost away at Derby but it was 9 days and 4 fixtures which really sealed our fate. Losing 5-0 away at Bolton before successive home defeats to Rotherham and Plymouth before finally losing away at Swansea. I was at all those games and it was hard to watch but that's what you have to do as a fan watch the team through good and bad times, blue or red.

We had been relegated the season before but after another season of total shit football we were relegated again and few if any of the fans back in those days had much reason to be confident about the times ahead.

But there was never any doubt in my mind that I would renew my season ticket and when I went down the club there was no big queue, in fact the girl in the office told me the club had sold less than 700 Season Tickets.

It is almost impossible to compare the club today to the club back then except that our owners today have a plan, back in 1986 the owners had no idea or cash to change things around. Today our owners are asking us to accept a big change but one they hope will secure a positive future for the club. surely that's what we all want.

In the 47 years I have been watching the Bluebirds I have never known an owner who is prepared to put this much money into our club and with the bank balance to back up his promises.

This is why I can be pragmatic about the proposals to rebrand, and believe me I would love to see the club continue in Blue, but unless some local businessman can come up with this level of financial commitment where are the options.

In my opinion it will take at least 2 years before we see the financial benefits of this rebranding on the balance sheet and at the end of the day that will be more important than any headline signings in this transfer window.

I'm sure some may brand me a "Soul Seller" or "plastic" I'm neither I'm just being pragmatic. Personally it hurt me more leaving Ninian Park for the last time because I knew we would never return. Changing shirt colour does not have to be forever and that's how I look at this but there are still things we can do to remind our owners that they have not won the hearts and minds of the supporters with thus rebranding.

Firstly we should all support Carl in his efforts to get the club to reconsider the design of the new club crest, secondly we should request the club plays one home match next season in our away Blue kit, this is allowed under Football League rules, and would give us a fantastic opportunity to show how we feel about putting the Blue back into Cardiff City.

Whatever the colour of shirt I cannot wait for 18th August to watch the next season under Malkay Mackay and of course that wonderful group of players who gave us everything they had last season. Hopefully by that time all of our fans will feel that sense of unity we enjoyed last season with Malkay and the players.

the big problem for me is this is just the start,were will it end,success at any cost.....not for me sorry

I think one of the biggest problems with this whole rebranding debate is that it has been badly mismanaged by the club and by that I mean communicating the rationale behind the reasons why rebranding is required.

One of the biggest misconceptions in my opinion is that changing colours and the club badge will bring enough shirt sales in Asia to leave the club debt free. This is clearly nonsense and in fairness to the club, TG in particular, this has never been said in any formal communication by the club but is repeated and repeated again and again on this board as if it's fact. It's not and never will be.

The rationale as communicated by TG has always been about " Exploiting and maximising commercial revenues in international markets, which it is hoped in turn will bring success to the club locally, whilst attracting new partners and investors"

To me it's crystal clear that any new revenues received as a result of rebranding be it from commercial sales, sponsership (new partners) or new investments would help reduce monthly operating losses and nothing else.

The monies to clear historic debts are currently coming from one source, Vincent Tan, and make absolutely no mistake about that. Currently any funds required to build a new training ground (owned by the club), the development of the ground and the team are also coming from Vincent Tan. All of this with the promise that any loans will be converted to equity or shares in the company and not held on the balance sheet as debt. The only fly in the ointment is Langston as that has to be finalised to secure this investment from VT.

I have been watching the City for 47 years and it hasn't always been good, believe me, but the last 10 years have without doubt been the best with last season being one of the very best. Why? because very few of us believed we could have had such a season where we had a new fantastic manager, a team who played for us and gave it everything they had and who will ever forget that performance in the Carling Cup Final. Also it was the first season I can remember, probably since Eddie May was manager, where the manager, players and fans were as one and it was absolutely fantastic. Whatever happens we simply MUST not lose that feeling this season.

I can remember the 1985/86 season which for me was the worst in my time watching the club, a season where we lost to both Newport County and Swansea City in the Freight Rover Trophy, lost to Swansea City in the League Cup, and eventually got relegated to the old division 4 for the first time in all the years I watched the club.

I remember the March fictures that season where we took only 2 of the 21 points available, the month started badly when we lost away at Derby but it was 9 days and 4 fixtures which really sealed our fate. Losing 5-0 away at Bolton before successive home defeats to Rotherham and Plymouth before finally losing away at Swansea. I was at all those games and it was hard to watch but that's what you have to do as a fan watch the team through good and bad times, blue or red.

We had been relegated the season before but after another season of total shit football we were relegated again and few if any of the fans back in those days had much reason to be confident about the times ahead.

But there was never any doubt in my mind that I would renew my season ticket and when I went down the club there was no big queue, in fact the girl in the office told me the club had sold less than 700 Season Tickets.

It is almost impossible to compare the club today to the club back then except that our owners today have a plan, back in 1986 the owners had no idea or cash to change things around. Today our owners are asking us to accept a big change but one they hope will secure a positive future for the club. surely that's what we all want.

In the 47 years I have been watching the Bluebirds I have never known an owner who is prepared to put this much money into our club and with the bank balance to back up his promises.

This is why I can be pragmatic about the proposals to rebrand, and believe me I would love to see the club continue in Blue, but unless some local businessman can come up with this level of financial commitment where are the options.

In my opinion it will take at least 2 years before we see the financial benefits of this rebranding on the balance sheet and at the end of the day that will be more important than any headline signings in this transfer window.

I'm sure some may brand me a "Soul Seller" or "plastic" I'm neither I'm just being pragmatic. Personally it hurt me more leaving Ninian Park for the last time because I knew we would never return. Changing shirt colour does not have to be forever and that's how I look at this but there are still things we can do to remind our owners that they have not won the hearts and minds of the supporters with thus rebranding.

Firstly we should all support Carl in his efforts to get the club to reconsider the design of the new club crest, secondly we should request the club plays one home match next season in our away Blue kit, this is allowed under Football League rules, and would give us a fantastic opportunity to show how we feel about putting the Blue back into Cardiff City.

Whatever the colour of shirt I cannot wait for 18th August to watch the next season under Malkay Mackay and of course that wonderful group of players who gave us everything they had last season. Hopefully by that time all of our fans will feel that sense of unity we enjoyed last season with Malkay and the players.

the big problem for me is this is just the start,were will it end,success at any cost.....not for me sorry

I understand where your coming from but for me this is not about success it's more about stability, financial stability, and that will provide the foundations for the club to build a successful future.

Hands up who didn't know the meaning of "Pragmatic" and had to 'Google' it?

nice post but that is your 0pinion...my club is cardiff city and they have played in blue for over 100 years..so iam one off the fans that have asked for a refund..for my season ticket i bought for 2012..i can not go with colour red and a change of our badge..all our history as gone they dont care about things like..well i for one do care about how history...

I think one of the biggest problems with this whole rebranding debate is that it has been badly mismanaged by the club and by that I mean communicating the rationale behind the reasons why rebranding is required.

One of the biggest misconceptions in my opinion is that changing colours and the club badge will bring enough shirt sales in Asia to leave the club debt free. This is clearly nonsense and in fairness to the club, TG in particular, this has never been said in any formal communication by the club but is repeated and repeated again and again on this board as if it's fact. It's not and never will be.

The rationale as communicated by TG has always been about " Exploiting and maximising commercial revenues in international markets, which it is hoped in turn will bring success to the club locally, whilst attracting new partners and investors"

To me it's crystal clear that any new revenues received as a result of rebranding be it from commercial sales, sponsership (new partners) or new investments would help reduce monthly operating losses and nothing else.

The monies to clear historic debts are currently coming from one source, Vincent Tan, and make absolutely no mistake about that. Currently any funds required to build a new training ground (owned by the club), the development of the ground and the team are also coming from Vincent Tan. All of this with the promise that any loans will be converted to equity or shares in the company and not held on the balance sheet as debt. The only fly in the ointment is Langston as that has to be finalised to secure this investment from VT.

I have been watching the City for 47 years and it hasn't always been good, believe me, but the last 10 years have without doubt been the best with last season being one of the very best. Why? because very few of us believed we could have had such a season where we had a new fantastic manager, a team who played for us and gave it everything they had and who will ever forget that performance in the Carling Cup Final. Also it was the first season I can remember, probably since Eddie May was manager, where the manager, players and fans were as one and it was absolutely fantastic. Whatever happens we simply MUST not lose that feeling this season.

I can remember the 1985/86 season which for me was the worst in my time watching the club, a season where we lost to both Newport County and Swansea City in the Freight Rover Trophy, lost to Swansea City in the League Cup, and eventually got relegated to the old division 4 for the first time in all the years I watched the club.

I remember the March fictures that season where we took only 2 of the 21 points available, the month started badly when we lost away at Derby but it was 9 days and 4 fixtures which really sealed our fate. Losing 5-0 away at Bolton before successive home defeats to Rotherham and Plymouth before finally losing away at Swansea. I was at all those games and it was hard to watch but that's what you have to do as a fan watch the team through good and bad times, blue or red.

We had been relegated the season before but after another season of total shit football we were relegated again and few if any of the fans back in those days had much reason to be confident about the times ahead.

But there was never any doubt in my mind that I would renew my season ticket and when I went down the club there was no big queue, in fact the girl in the office told me the club had sold less than 700 Season Tickets.

It is almost impossible to compare the club today to the club back then except that our owners today have a plan, back in 1986 the owners had no idea or cash to change things around. Today our owners are asking us to accept a big change but one they hope will secure a positive future for the club. surely that's what we all want.

In the 47 years I have been watching the Bluebirds I have never known an owner who is prepared to put this much money into our club and with the bank balance to back up his promises.

This is why I can be pragmatic about the proposals to rebrand, and believe me I would love to see the club continue in Blue, but unless some local businessman can come up with this level of financial commitment where are the options.

In my opinion it will take at least 2 years before we see the financial benefits of this rebranding on the balance sheet and at the end of the day that will be more important than any headline signings in this transfer window.

I'm sure some may brand me a "Soul Seller" or "plastic" I'm neither I'm just being pragmatic. Personally it hurt me more leaving Ninian Park for the last time because I knew we would never return. Changing shirt colour does not have to be forever and that's how I look at this but there are still things we can do to remind our owners that they have not won the hearts and minds of the supporters with thus rebranding.

Firstly we should all support Carl in his efforts to get the club to reconsider the design of the new club crest, secondly we should request the club plays one home match next season in our away Blue kit, this is allowed under Football League rules, and would give us a fantastic opportunity to show how we feel about putting the Blue back into Cardiff City.

Whatever the colour of shirt I cannot wait for 18th August to watch the next season under Malkay Mackay and of course that wonderful group of players who gave us everything they had last season. Hopefully by that time all of our fans will feel that sense of unity we enjoyed last season with Malkay and the players.

the big problem for me is this is just the start,were will it end,success at any cost.....not for me sorry

I understand where your coming from but for me this is not about success it's more about stability, financial stability, and that will provide the foundations for the club to build a successful future.

Agreed foundations have been laid and we are now busy building the house, once the Langstone debt has been paid and investment comes in we will be well on the way to building the house. The new training ground a good clean balance sheet and the roof will be on. By then we will be on a level playing field with some of the clubs in the division above. Hopefully we can get the finishing touches done to the house in time for our journey in the Premier League. Once there maybe we can build the house a bit bigger and stronger. Slowly slowly catchey monkey, we will get there and in my view have the right people running our club.

What an excellent post, I for one cant wait for the new season to start. I have had enough of this Blue / Red debate. Time to move on, and get behind the TEAM from the chairman down to the tea lady.
If we are not successful , in the far east and China, with shirt sales , TV channel etc. in a year or two then maybe we can turn back to blue. But cant we give them a chance to get us debt free first ?
Anyway why have we not had at least a red away kit, since the start , being as we are Welsh and the Capital City ?

Roll on August the 18th

As far as i'm concerned, all this re branding will only make sense if;

1. The Langston debt is finally cleared.

2. We assemble a quality squad for the new season & get promoted next May.

3. We build & develop the new training facilities.

Anything less that this, then i think there will be a lot more fans apathy & discontentment that their currently is.

Excellent post

Quality post, my feelings exactly however could never put it down into words as good as that.

Another well executed piece Castleblue.

as already said - post of the year.

reading your post brought back a lot of memories of those times - f*cking dire. great fans out though.
dreaming of a quality first round draw in the carling cup (milk/coca cola etc)

an apprenticeship well served.

a poem...................

If


If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!


Rudyard Kipling

excellent post, as always from Castleblue

complete sense and puts it all into context, and fair play to Annis and the mods in making it into a sticky

great post, great mb

Brillaint Post.
Considering we are in the modern football last season didnt seem like that seemed like what it as 10 years ago.

Excellent post form a true fan. No dramatics, no attention-seeking, no childish antics - just a quiet dignified passion. A reasoned calm voice in the storm.