I still dont understand ?

its £40m to the malaysians £10m to Sam ( if agreed) £3.5m to ray ranson and around £5.5m to PMG that makes it around £59m when they have paid this off they will then convert this money into shares making them the outright owners and no debt at that point

Seem about right to me sorry if the Langston dept is agreed ( Sam the Sham screws us one last time with his lend to himself financial loan company AKA Langston ) , Dont see anybody on here havingh a go at him on here for causing our dept problem and dropping us in the s**t ....Annis your wide of the mark with your figures methinks and unlessyou can come up with something more concrete then fine as you have added another 23 million to our dept by just tapping a few keyboard keys ? this just makes me feel you may you have other agendas .

Can some one please explain to me ?

some decent answers please and honest debate.

First how come we are £82 mill in debt ?

How will we get out of this debt ?

By changing our badge, what have we achieved ?

By changing our colour what have we achieved ?

Who is paying the 7% interest ?

So are the Red lovers now saying we are debt free and no more debt ?

Exactly Annis. No more debt free than we were a few weeks back. When is the companies year end ? / when are the latest accounts due to be filed ?. Will be an interesting read.

What no one seems to pick up on as well , is the ground. We were skint in the last years of Ninian Park. The ground cost what - 30m ?. There was only one way that could of got funded - debt !. Frankly - we couldn't afford a new ground. Granted - it has put anything between 3 - 5k on every home gate, however does that justify the extra 30m of debt ?, and its not just the debt, its the crippling interest it brings. These £1m losses each month are primarily interest driven and are not operational. Anyone who thinks the malaysians are injecting 1m cash per month to keep the club going are deluded.

A genuine investment in a football club will come from the fully paid up share capital. Anything else and you will always have debt hanging over your head !.

We have a huge local fanbase which already turn up game on game (20 odd k in the championship is a very good gate) You would get another 10k per week in my opinion in the prem. We dont need to attract a new breed of fan, they are already all over cardiff and surrounding valleys. I await with huge anticipation the big influx of funds from the far east as a result of the brand change and the pending huge investment (investment as defined above) that the malaysians promise.

It's well known we are losing ovet a million a month so is it any wonder the figure rises rapidly? Never mind we'll sell 10 billion shirts in China and everything will be ok

Merlin said :

£29m of that is only the running cost over the last 24 months if we are working with a monthly expenditure of £1.2m

So they have invested £10m elsewhere etc etc.

Once the Langston Debt is settled, and they convert their debt into Equity (shares) I really don't see the problem. (Apart from the fact that this is what they are telling us they will do at the moment) saying and doing though are quite different.[/quote]

--------------------------------
You're right Merlin on this last point - the proof of the pudding will be very much in the eating, but I see no reason at the moment to be anything less than optimistic they will deliver.

If I'm wrong, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

When is the companies year end ? / when are the latest accounts due to be filed ?. Will be an interesting read.

31st May 2012.

I would have thought it would be a good while until these are filed though.

It's well known we are losing ovet a million a month so is it any wonder the figure rises rapidly? Never mind we'll sell 10 billion shirts in China and everything will be ok

As has been said on many occasions on here lately if you have a better idea please feel free to enlighten us all maestro. .............somehow i have a strong feeling you dont?.

Annis - If there are no Malyasians what is your plan, stop sniping and come up with something constructive, it's now obvious as you keep dodging this question and are trying to stir up trouble to show yourself as some sort of messiah...

Annis its all a load of shit mate they have sold us out and some of are fans just rolled over and for that I am gutted I thought are fans were better than this shower of shit.

Annis - If there are no Malyasians what is your plan, stop sniping and come up with something constructive, it's now obvious as you keep dodging this question and are trying to stir up trouble to show yourself as some sort of messiah...

he hasnt answered anything just like the other silly protesters

Can some one please explain to me ?

some decent answers please and honest debate.

First how come we are £82 mill in debt ?

How will we get out of this debt ?

By changing our badge, what have we achieved ?

By changing our colour what have we achieved ?

Who is paying the 7% interest ?

So are the Red lovers now saying we are debt free and no more debt ?

Annis I think a lot of the debt accrued was from the big push in the 2010/11 season. In my opinion, the owners took a gamble for the premiership, which sadly failed.
I think the only guaranteed debt payoff is the Langston debt. I think the only chance that the Malaysians will convert their debt into equity, is if their kit sales go to plan in the far east. Worst case scenario for me is if the kit is a failure and it doesn't go to plan, our investors could well seek new investors and move on leaving us to pay them back what is owed,at a manageable rate.
At present the change of kit/badge has Achieved nothing, other than the Malaysians intent. This is something we will have to watch over time. We have compromised, so now the Malaysians must deliver what they promised. Again worst case scenario we struggle in the market, spend just shy of 4million. Malky doesn't get the strength and depth that is required. Will then get promised a "war chest" for January. Again, struggle in the market. Then push for promotion with a fatigued squad.
Even though this will be deemed negative, theres also the possibility that they will liquidise the 50mill. debts that they have invested in CCFC, we will make some class signings in the summer & we have the right balance of strength & depth that will see us dominate the championship ladder.
So to end my post I will state the obvious, it's over to you VT/TG/MM

Last edited by Chip shop Alley on Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

None of our biggest clubs have conquered the Asian market. All the shirts are fake . You can buy them for pennies. Put it this way who the f**k are gonna buy our shirts . We are a average second tier club. What club shirt would you buy in malaysian 2 nd division. They bought us on thinking we were going straight up and being prem club. I think they don't want to lose face. Our , sorry their club will become a millstone round their neck.

It's well known we are losing ovet a million a month so is it any wonder the figure rises rapidly? Never mind we'll sell 10 billion shirts in China and everything will be ok

As has been said on many occasions on here lately if you have a better idea please feel free to enlighten us all maestro. .............somehow i have a strong feeling you dont?.

Run the club properly, cut costs if need be and stop throwing money at everything. Basic business sense really. We've been throwing money at it for years and it's got us nowhere. This, to me, is another badly thought out short term fix. We'll still be up shit street when VT & his gang get fed up. I hope i'm wrong but I just can't see it, and nothing will convince me that badges & colours had to be changed so that we now look like a mini Manchester United but they know that might appeal to half of South Wales and the Asian market.

Can some one please explain to me ?

some decent answers please and honest debate.

First how come we are £82 mill in debt ?

How will we get out of this debt ?

By changing our badge, what have we achieved ?

By changing our colour what have we achieved ?

Who is paying the 7% interest ?

So are the Red lovers now saying we are debt free and no more debt ?

I know my first song of the season to the directors box-------"ARE YOU KUMARS IN DISGUISE"

When is the companies year end ? / when are the latest accounts due to be filed ?. Will be an interesting read.

31st May 2012.

I would have thought it would be a good while until these are filed though.

What is the actual company name mate - assume its not Just Cardiff City FC Ltd ?

When is the companies year end ? / when are the latest accounts due to be filed ?. Will be an interesting read.

31st May 2012.

I would have thought it would be a good while until these are filed though.

What is the actual company name mate - assume its not Just Cardiff City FC Ltd ?

Search it on the Companies House website. You'll find all the associated companies names there too. Documents can be purchased from £1 a pop.

its £40m to the malaysians £10m to Sam ( if agreed) £3.5m to ray ranson and around £5.5m to PMG that makes it around £59m when they have paid this off they will then convert this money into shares making them the outright owners and no debt at that point

Seem about right to me sorry if the Langston dept is agreed ( Sam the Sham screws us one last time with his lend to himself financial loan company AKA Langston ) , Dont see anybody on here havingh a go at him on here for causing our dept problem and dropping us in the s**t ....Annis your wide of the mark with your figures methinks and unlessyou can come up with something more concrete then fine as you have added another 23 million to our dept by just tapping a few keyboard keys ? this just makes me feel you may you have other agendas .

SAM is pretty much turning 18 million into equity! He's not a scam he's a business man, he put a lot of investment into CCFC to push us to the top but that fell short at the last hurdle. Look at what he achieved for the club.they are probably the best moments for me personally, he put us on the football map. If he wanted to claim back all what was owed to him,I'm pretty sure he'd have no problem in doing so.

SAM is pretty much turning 18 million into equity!.

I hope he isn't getting any equity!

its £40m to the malaysians £10m to Sam ( if agreed) £3.5m to ray ranson and around £5.5m to PMG that makes it around £59m when they have paid this off they will then convert this money into shares making them the outright owners and no debt at that point

Seem about right to me sorry if the Langston dept is agreed ( Sam the Sham screws us one last time with his lend to himself financial loan company AKA Langston ) , Dont see anybody on here havingh a go at him on here for causing our dept problem and dropping us in the s**t ....Annis your wide of the mark with your figures methinks and unlessyou can come up with something more concrete then fine as you have added another 23 million to our dept by just tapping a few keyboard keys ? this just makes me feel you may you have other agendas .

SAM is pretty much turning 18 million into equity! He's not a scam he's a business man, he put a lot of investment into CCFC to push us to the top but that fell short at the last hurdle. Look at what he achieved for the club.they are probably the best moments for me personally, he put us on the football map. If he wanted to claim back all what was owed to him,I'm pretty sure he'd have no problem in doing so.

Don't mind if he gets equity. Effectively means he won't be getting any cash anytime soon. If you own equity, there are only two / three ways you can make cash from the business. Via dividends - a footy club will never make enough profit to may this viable, capital growth, when you buy your equity (or forgoe debt as may be the case) at one price, the company is subsequently bought for another price. Third way, is you shaft the company by creaming high payroll costs or cream off via management charges via an affilitated entity.

Given the state of our club, equity owners aint getting f**k all return.

SAM is pretty much turning 18 million into equity!.

I hope he isn't getting any equity!

He's gonna move in with you izzy! Hope you like cats.

its £40m to the malaysians £10m to Sam ( if agreed) £3.5m to ray ranson and around £5.5m to PMG that makes it around £59m when they have paid this off they will then convert this money into shares making them the outright owners and no debt at that point

Seem about right to me sorry if the Langston dept is agreed ( Sam the Sham screws us one last time with his lend to himself financial loan company AKA Langston ) , Dont see anybody on here havingh a go at him on here for causing our dept problem and dropping us in the s**t ....Annis your wide of the mark with your figures methinks and unlessyou can come up with something more concrete then fine as you have added another 23 million to our dept by just tapping a few keyboard keys ? this just makes me feel you may you have other agendas .

SAM is pretty much turning 18 million into equity! He's not a scam he's a business man, he put a lot of investment into CCFC to push us to the top but that fell short at the last hurdle. Look at what he achieved for the club.they are probably the best moments for me personally, he put us on the football map. If he wanted to claim back all what was owed to him,I'm pretty sure he'd have no problem in doing so.

You say Sam put a lot of investment into the club but only as loans and them wanted it all back, great times indeed but would we have enjoyed them as much if we knew the mess he was going to leave us in? He gambled with us and I would love to see him get nothing as he chose to throw the cash around not the fans

I think one of the biggest problems with this whole rebranding debate is that it has been badly mismanaged by the club and by that I mean communicating the rationale behind the reasons why rebranding is required.

One of the biggest misconceptions in my opinion is that changing colours and the club badge will bring enough shirt sales in Asia to leave the club debt free. This is clearly nonsense and in fairness to the club, TG in particular, this has never been said in any formal communication by the club but is repeated and repeated again and again on this board as if it's fact. It's not and never will be.

The rationale as communicated by TG has always been about " Exploiting and maximising commercial revenues in international markets, which it is hoped in turn will bring success to the club locally, whilst attracting new partners and investors"

To me it's crystal clear that any new revenues received as a result of rebranding be it from commercial sales, sponsership (new partners) or new investments would help reduce monthly operating losses and nothing else.

The monies to clear historic debts are currently coming from one source, Vincent Tan, and make absolutely no mistake about that. Currently any funds required to build a new training ground owned by the club, the development of the ground and the team are also coming from Vincent Tan. All of this with the promise that any loans will be converted to equityor shares in the company and not held on the balance sheet as debt. The only fly in the ointment is Langston as that has to be finalised to secure this investment from VT.

In the 47 years I have been watching the Bluebirds I have never known an owner who is prepared to put this much money into our club and with the bank balance to back up his promises.

This is why I can accept his proposals to rebrand, and believe me I would love to see the club continue in Blue, but unless some local businessman can come up with this level of financial commitment where are the options.

In my opinion it will take at least 2 years before we see the financial benefits of this rebranding on the balance sheet and at the end of the day that will be more important than any headline signings in this transfer window.

How many of our fans will be prepared to wait and keep faith in the process sadly not many because as football fans we all want success today.

Merlin said :

£29m of that is only the running cost over the last 24 months if we are working with a monthly expenditure of £1.2m

So they have invested £10m elsewhere etc etc.

Once the Langston Debt is settled, and they convert their debt into Equity (shares) I really don't see the problem. (Apart from the fact that this is what they are telling us they will do at the moment) saying and doing though are quite different.[/quote]

--------------------------------
You're right Merlin on this last point - the proof of the pudding will be very much in the eating, but I see no reason at the moment to be anything less than optimistic they will deliver.

If I'm wrong, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

Fully agree. Why is everyone worried all of a sudden because the debt hasn't yet been turned into shares. VT has made it clear all along that Langston has to be sorted first. Annis just enjoy whatever you have left of your holiday and just see what happens.

Can some one please explain to me ?

some decent answers please and honest debate.

First how come we are £82 mill in debt ?

How will we get out of this debt ?

By changing our badge, what have we achieved ?

By changing our colour what have we achieved ?

Who is paying the 7% interest ?

So are the Red lovers now saying we are debt free and no more debt ?

We spent more an we earned.
We will get out by the investment of VT
We havent archived anything yet, iwe are about 5 days into a long term plan so we have to wait
The Malaysians are effectively paying the interest so it's wooden dollars but reduces the tax liability on the club
Nobody can say we are debt free until the plan has been executed. This will take time. As long as we service the debt, it doesn't matter

Well made points Gwyn sadly none of them have credence until the mortage is paid and the investnebt secured.

Other than cutting costs which will result in poor results on the field thus smaller crowds which adds to the problems, no one has come up with an alternative solution

Other than cutting costs which will result in poor results on the field thus smaller crowds which adds to the problems, no one has come up with an alternative solution

Others have spent less than us, went up & stayed up so your theory isn't 100% correct.

Can some one please explain to me ?

some decent answers please and honest debate.

First how come we are £82 mill in debt ?

How will we get out of this debt ?

By changing our badge, what have we achieved ?

By changing our colour what have we achieved ?

So are the Red lovers now saying we are debt free and no more debt ?

I though the debt was in the region of 70 million - so another 12 million is worrying, if that is the case.

On the points you raise :

If £100 million is put in, I see it as follows :

1. £10 million to Langston - that wipes 24 Million off the debt, so if my figure of 70 million is correct, then it brings the debt down to 46 million, and 90 million left

2. £40 million to cover the other debts we've accrued - leaving £50 million left

3. That amount will then be there for :
(i) extending the stadium ,which we definitely need if we were to be promoted, as the Jacks have missed a trick with having more demand than supply, and we need to capitalise on that if we get up and get most of South Wales CCFC
(ii) the new training facilities
(iii) squad strengthening

Now, the amount may not be 100 million - I don't think I've seen that figure officially anywhere, but I think its likely to be somewhere in that region to do all of the above.

The key thing is that Langston is paid off, and the above debts are turned into equity - if that happens, I will be happy. Personally, if Sam were to come back and work with the Malaysians in some capacity, taht would be the icing on the cake for me, as I've always loved Sam and that would be a dream come true (which after last summer's statement about the forensic accountants, I didn't think would happen, but if it can, great )

The reasons why the colour change and Dragon badge were necessary is still unkown, but it may be that VT (and possibly other investors) see this as a way of getting massive support for us in China, which is where all the richest teams in the world are trying to get into, as that's the burgeoning market. We'll have to wait to see to be certain, but I think that's very likely personally.

I'm trying to look at this as logically as possible here, and if there was no ultimate benefit here why would VT want to do this? If we end up being poor on the pitch for a long time, what benefit will VT get out of that - the only way he can realise any profit from us is by getting us up to the Premiership - he may not be doing it for the love of CCFC, but if his ambitions financially mean we become a good (possible even great) team on th pitch, doesn't that mean we're both winners?

I do however have real sympathy with everybody who feels really strongly about the change to red - I'm possibly in a very small minority that wanted it when Sam mentioned it about a decade ago, but I know the vast majority of fans are not with me on that one.

The gloating and name callings I absolutely hate, and I will not engage like that, as its my fellow fans here who are going through agonies over this issue.

I still however think we have more that unite us than divides us, and I believe we will get through this in the end.

I'm not sure if I'm right on all the above Annis, but these are just me genuine views on the issue.

I pretty much have not entered into any conversations on this subject, but feel that I have to respond as your post is pretty much spot on. People are asking what has the re brand achieved but we have to look at this in context over the next ten years or so. If the Malaysians are correct and they know more about these emerging markets than anyone else then the re brand must happen now before Cardiff make it into the Premiership. People have to realise that football has changed dramatically, the Premiership is a global product, I could see within ten years for instance that teams will be playing games in the USA in front of packed stadiums. Man Utd have 400 million supporters worldwide FFS, can you imagine if they could find a way of getting each of those fans to cough up just £1 each per year for some product, the markets worldwide are stagerring and the clubs that can harvest those markets will become very powerful and probably successful.

Can some one please explain to me ?

some decent answers please and honest debate.

First how come we are £82 mill in debt ?

How will we get out of this debt ?

By changing our badge, what have we achieved ?

By changing our colour what have we achieved ?

So are the Red lovers now saying we are debt free and no more debt ?

I though the debt was in the region of 70 million - so another 12 million is worrying, if that is the case.

On the points you raise :

If £100 million is put in, I see it as follows :

1. £10 million to Langston - that wipes 24 Million off the debt, so if my figure of 70 million is correct, then it brings the debt down to 46 million, and 90 million left

2. £40 million to cover the other debts we've accrued - leaving £50 million left

3. That amount will then be there for :
(i) extending the stadium ,which we definitely need if we were to be promoted, as the Jacks have missed a trick with having more demand than supply, and we need to capitalise on that if we get up and get most of South Wales CCFC
(ii) the new training facilities
(iii) squad strengthening

Now, the amount may not be 100 million - I don't think I've seen that figure officially anywhere, but I think its likely to be somewhere in that region to do all of the above.

The key thing is that Langston is paid off, and the above debts are turned into equity - if that happens, I will be happy. Personally, if Sam were to come back and work with the Malaysians in some capacity, taht would be the icing on the cake for me, as I've always loved Sam and that would be a dream come true (which after last summer's statement about the forensic accountants, I didn't think would happen, but if it can, great )

The reasons why the colour change and Dragon badge were necessary is still unkown, but it may be that VT (and possibly other investors) see this as a way of getting massive support for us in China, which is where all the richest teams in the world are trying to get into, as that's the burgeoning market. We'll have to wait to see to be certain, but I think that's very likely personally.

I'm trying to look at this as logically as possible here, and if there was no ultimate benefit here why would VT want to do this? If we end up being poor on the pitch for a long time, what benefit will VT get out of that - the only way he can realise any profit from us is by getting us up to the Premiership - he may not be doing it for the love of CCFC, but if his ambitions financially mean we become a good (possible even great) team on th pitch, doesn't that mean we're both winners?

I do however have real sympathy with everybody who feels really strongly about the change to red - I'm possibly in a very small minority that wanted it when Sam mentioned it about a decade ago, but I know the vast majority of fans are not with me on that one.

The gloating and name callings I absolutely hate, and I will not engage like that, as its my fellow fans here who are going through agonies over this issue.

I still however think we have more that unite us than divides us, and I believe we will get through this in the end.

I'm not sure if I'm right on all the above Annis, but these are just me genuine views on the issue.

I pretty much have not entered into any conversations on this subject, but feel that I have to respond as your post is pretty much spot on. People are asking what has the re brand achieved but we have to look at this in context over the next ten years or so. If the Malaysians are correct and they know more about these emerging markets than anyone else then the re brand must happen now before Cardiff make it into the Premiership. People have to realise that football has changed dramatically, the Premiership is a global product, I could see within ten years for instance that teams will be playing games in the USA in front of packed stadiums. Man Utd have 400 million supporters worldwide FFS, can you imagine if they could find a way of getting each of those fans to cough up just £1 each per year for some product, the markets worldwide are stagerring and the clubs that can harvest those markets will become very powerful and probably successful.

It's well known we are losing ovet a million a month so is it any wonder the figure rises rapidly? Never mind we'll sell 10 billion shirts in China and everything will be ok

As has been said on many occasions on here lately if you have a better idea please feel free to enlighten us all maestro. .............somehow i have a strong feeling you dont?.

Run the club properly, cut costs if need be and stop throwing money at everything. Basic business sense really. We've been throwing money at it for years and it's got us nowhere. This, to me, is another badly thought out short term fix. We'll still be up shit street when VT & his gang get fed up. I hope i'm wrong but I just can't see it, and nothing will convince me that badges & colours had to be changed so that we now look like a mini Manchester United but they know that might appeal to half of South Wales and the Asian market.

If we have to rebrand to generate funds so be and lets be honest no one has seen the Malaysians take anything out of the Club and they are just following the way forward in the the way Clubs are run these days as had when clubs just rely on attendance fees for income are well in the past .
Bare in mind when the so called money was just thrown at the Club no one complained watching Portsmouth,Blackpool and Liverpool at Wembley or seeing Craig Bellamy and Co plying their trade at the CCS , having to watch us sell our gems such as Ramsey ,Johnson ,Macnuif to name just a few.
I can also see a glaring flaw in your plan as if the stream of present income ceded then the Club would drop down the leagues like the proverbial brick and with that the lose of attendances, sponsorship ,etc we would be lucky to playing lower league football with meagre crowds and any degree of investment would go out the window also as no one would touch us with a barge pole.
So the way i see it is when certain so called influential factions on here try to undermine for there own pityful egos everything that is being down to stabilise our finances whilst still playing a good level of football i believe they should embrace rather than show a negative attitude and let go of days on the terraces in the 80's in a crumbling Stadium playing against the likes of Rochdale, Brentford ,etc for f**k sake move on and lets begin an era of success and see how far we can go as a Club.

As i've said, others have spent less, went up & stayed up. There is no glaring flaw in running a business properly. Don't spend money you haven't got. I've said it for years, so while I may not have complained at all those big games you mention it doesn't mean I was happy at the way the club was being run financially.

Changing the colour/crest is not going to make a difference.