" Proposed changes the truth as I seen it "

This has been a very eventful few days and hopefully not to damaging to the football club.

There has been a lot of debate during this period from the hysterical to almost docile views. Thankfully this appears to have calmed down now and supporters are debating in a civil manner.

I was informed of the proposed changes before many weeks ago here are the facts of how this news unfolded.

At the end of March I received a phone call from the football club asking if I could meet with a couple of them after work as they wanted to run some things by me to gauge my opinion as a fan not in my supporters club capacity. This was not unusual for me as I have been asked to do similar on several occasions in the past due to the fact if I am told to keep it a secret I do.

I turned up at the club late that evening to be met by Wayne Nash & Alan Whitley and then was told the following:

Vincent Tan was looking to move the club forward and wanted to invest heavy as he was now here for the long term. The investment would then lead him to be the major shareholder in the club which would rid the club of its debt, and he wanted to invest the money in the following ways:

• Rid the club of its historical debt agreeing settlements with its large creditors including PMG and langstone
• Increase the stadium capacity to 35,000 by adding a tier on the Ninian Stand
• Brand new state of the art training facilities to match the best in the world
• Increase funding to strengthen the playing squad to allow Malky to have a go at promotion to the premiership
• All the investment made to the club would then be turned into equity rather than saddle the club with debt (ala Man Utd, Chelsea) the investment would amount to around £100 million

So I asked what’s the catch?

• The kit would be changed from blue to Red
• The bluebird would be replaced by a dragon and also changed red
• The away kit would then be blue

Alan said those changes were fundamental to Vincent Tan investing into the club otherwise there would be no deal. I asked why? I was told that he sees the colour Red as a fusion of both cultures. The Red and Red dragon of Wales and the symbolic meaning of the colour red in Asia, accompanied with the possibility of major commercial advantages in the future for the football club were we successful regards merchandise sales in that region. If we did not agree to these changes he could not invest the money in the club which would leave us in a very precarious position.

After a deep breath and long pause I said don’t think you got anywhere to go with this I don’t like the change, I don’t want the change, but see no alternative the survival of the club always comes first. I was asked how I thought fans would take the news; I said there would be uproar from some quarters, and would probably lead to the odd petition and demonstration. Alan said they were looking to avoid that by managing how the news was broken so they outlined the clubs strategy as Follows:
• Already senior staff and board members had been told of the proposed changes
• Vincent Tan to conclude the deal with Langstone
• At the end of the season when ever that was going to be; firstly staff would be told of the proposed changes, then supporter groups, and then press

This information was going to be presented by TG himself along with board and senior club employees, with artist impressions and designs of the new stand, and training facilities where architects have already been employed to draw up the plans.

I was told to keep it to myself as it was still work in progress and the club were still looking to get some concession from Vincent Tan regards the changes to help soften the blow for supporters like retaining the bluebird on the badge. I asked about name changes, and Alan informed me that Vincent Tan had no desire to change the name or the nickname of the club either now or in the future.

I went away that evening and I couldn’t sleep I felt like if I agreed to this change I would be letting the club down, but then I would think well if we didn’t agree we would have no club to let down what comes first the future or the past? It was doing my head in, at one point I text Wayne Nash really angry and said sod it lets take the 15 points administration and start again, but as the hours tick past a more balanced view came through. I thought! Nobody can erase the history of the football club it’s always there! We’ve made changes before, and changed back a few years later why couldn’t that happen? Although it appeared to be at first a complete re-brand it wasn’t! We weren’t changing our name, our base! I grew to see the benefits and why we needed this investment to survive and compete with new football league rules coming in over wage caps to match the football income. Vincent Tan needed the kit to change to red; this was how he was going to re-coup his money in the Asian markets, and demonstrates to the football league income streams which would allow us to compete with the premier teams when relegated to the championship with their £40 million parachute payments in attracting good players to the club, instead of cutting wages by selling your top players and signing lesser players on lower wages. He was also not looking to saddle us with millions of pounds of debt like previous owners, like owners at other clubs also. I have also had the pleasure of meeting TG on several occasions and Vincent Tan on one occasion, and both are very honourable men who are very successful in business. After meeting them I said instantly I trust them to fellow supporters and colleagues. Unlike other owners of football clubs all their business can easily be found and recognised, they have been men of their word, I guess what I am trying to say they are real business’s we can identify every day of the week, so my position softened towards the change upon reflection of the above.

As time went on, and the launch date approached the burden got so much I spoke to the club and said I needed to share that burden and gauge the reaction of my colleagues on the supporter’s club committee. At a committee meeting the Wednesday before the home game of the West Ham play off semi final, against my better judgement (I’ve always been renowned for keeping a secret) I felt I needed to share this burden which was causing me to lose sleep, so I informed my committee member colleagues in confidence of the pending proposed investment, and changes. I said this information was not for the public domain, and needed to be kept between us because it was still work in progress, but the club were looking to propose to the supporters sometime after the play offs. The reaction of the committee was split one or two against any change, a couple in favour and said it bring it on, and the majority like myself by this time didn’t particular want to change the colour, and badge but would accept it for the future good of the club. So just like many of the supporters differing views about the proposed changes. The main reason I found it hard to carry that burden was the worry once the news was broken I would be on my own trying to keep supporters calm to encourage a period of reflection, and thought before making a judgement,. I could see many people reacting like I did when I was first told, which could lead to infighting and extreme rationale if it we didn’t try and manage supporter’s reactions, and guide them through with strong leadership carnage could prevail.

Unfortunately someone decided to leak the news straight after the final whistle at the return leg of the play off semi final against West Ham, which led to a very unsavoury 48hrs which is what I wanted to avoid. I do not seek to blame the person who leaked it as they thought they were doing it for the good of the club, but if they could have just resisted 2 weeks its my belief this would have all been dealt with in a more civil manner.

I apologise I couldn’t spend more time on the Messageboards, social media sites during the past 72hours trying to calm things down, but those of you who know me personally know I have been working 14-16 hour days, 7 days a week to get a new Health centre and Community centre completed for handover in Butetown this coming Monday. I did try but got abused the first evening although that was around midnight when I got home so perhaps one or two had been on the sauce so I forgive them.

Where we stand today is anyone guess! The only thing that is certain is the uncertainty. I re-iterate again in my opinion these are honourable men, they have sunk all that money in and not taken a penny out! They have real Business’s, what they are offering this football club is huge, and don’t come along everyday, many football clubs have changed badges and colours over the years, I was talking to a York City Fan they have had 3 colour changes in his time of supporting them, he also mentioned Salzburg who changed their kit to the sponsors colour Red Bull. Is it worth losing the football club for? They are asking for a colour change to the Home Kit and a badge change ask your self is that worth losing the club for?

• We are still Cardiff City FC the Bluebirds no identity change
• We still play in Cardiff no place change
• Nobody can erase our history ever

I hated it when CDs threatened Vinyl, I argued the case for months eventually I succumbed, now I listen to my music in all sorts of fashion, but I still have my history, my vinyl records limited colour editions, and LPs (albums to the youngsters) 7” and 12” pink vinyl squeeze single cool for cats, My red vinyl Damned etc occasionally give them an airing, along with my Cardiff city DVDs off past glories. I am a traditionalist, I hate everything football has become, I don’t like what the premier league is about, but I know the majority of you want to see us compete in the premier league at the highest level, and after reflection which I had the benefit of many of you didn’t, this was our best opportunity and my personal view would be to embrace this deal.

On such an emotional and emotive subject there is no way I could make the above comments on behalf of our 3000 members of the supporters club without having proper consultation first. These proposals were not a subject for any committee member to make public comments on behalf of its membership, and we from a committee perspective have steered cleared to date of doing that until we have all our ballot papers back. However you may have read quotes and posts from several of us giving our personal view as supporters. How could we give leadership and direction when the committee itself was split in opinion? We are elected to represent the supporters views and will do in a professional manner once our ballot is complete regardless of our own personal viewpoint.

I would like to thank you all for listening to us and calming down it has been much more pleasant reading on all the sites, we are a broad church and need to respect everyone view point even though it may differ from ours.


There is an old saying in war “you live to fight another day even if that means making sacrifices you don’t like” I am not saying this is a war but we need to survive.

Thank you once again


Vince Alm

Vince you and the other fans representatives must use your position of influence to make sure this opportunity actually happens as painlessly as possible for all sides concerned. The majority of fans are behind this investment, and if we establish ourselves in the premier league this period will just be a footnote in our long at not always illustrious history

Thank You Vince for taking the time to write this.

You have explained the situation and I personally think, the way it hs come round may be better as the boil has been lanced a bit - I just hope the damage done can be mended.

Like you and many many others - cardiff city is in my heart and soul and it has been torture this week - so god knows how you have been feeling this long while.
Good will come out of this whatever the result of the next meetings - as we all realise young and old, new fans and time served - that we are proud fans of Cardiff City FC

It's a shame your committee leaked the news. It could've been a lot smoother.

I had those limited coloured vinyl's as well but over the years and umpteen house moves they have been lost

But still I have the memories which will always be there and the same is true of Cardiff City Blue

We got to change for the good of the club,we can always try and get back to blue in the future at some point.we ll be debt free,have top facilites,hopefully a top team,so even if tan decided to sell,we ll be an attactive club for someone.

It's a shame your committee leaked the news. It could've been a lot smoother.

Agreed. As responsible members of that board you'd think they'd keep thoughts and feelings in check and let the club roll it out on its intended course as planned then allow for opinions and compromise afterwards. Very disappointing but whats done is done and we look to be pulling together again. Time will tell how much damage is really done.

Last edited by Taff on the Mersey on Sat May 12, 2012 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

Thanks for that Vince.

At first I was angry and genuinly upset at the news.

I was being told that they wanted to change the colour from Blue to Red as Blue is a colour that symbolises death in Malaysia.

This wound me up no end, as obviously, Cardiff is not Malaysia.

When the original news was broken and select fans went to the meeting what was being fed back via
the message boards was like we were being dictated to, blackmailed if you like, take it or leave it, Red or Dead.

I have no argument with Vincent Tan and TG, they are clearly good businessmen with vast fortunes and have clearly invested money into the Football Club for the good of it.

However, I still and cant see a justification in the colour change.

It has been argued and proved on here and by reports coming back from Asia that fans simply wouldnt just start supporting Cardiff City because we play in Red.

I cant accept us playing in Red, maybe in time, but at the moment it genuinly pains me to think of us playing in the colour Red.

Like you, at the start I am thinking sod it, take admin and a 15 points deduction and start again, maybe like yourself my
opinion will soften in time.

We will see.

As you know Vince, we both deep down feel the same way.

I accept that we have to have change other wise, we lose our investment which as we are £72 mill in debt we desperately need.

But that does not mean I agreed with all the original proposed changes and in my heart still dont with the new ones.

I never agreed with Sam on his badge change.

I am glad I spoke out about our Bluebird being taken off and loosing our nickname.

I am glad I spoke out against our colour change.

I want our Club to move forward, but I as a fan I can have my opinion. I will only be buying the away kits and thats my preference, I will continue to Support my club at matches home and away, that I will always do. I want the investment if it helps our club go to the Premiership.

Certain people are not letting people say their true feelings and we all should be allowed.
Please stop the name calling and belittling, we are all fans and should be allowed to say how we feel.

As you know Vince, we both deep down feel the same way.

I accept that we have to have change other wise, we lose our investment which as we are £72 mill in debt we desperately need.

But that does not mean I agreed with all the original proposed changes and in my heart still dont with the new ones.

I never agreed with Sam on his badge change.

I am glad I spoke out about our Bluebird being taken off and loosing our nickname.

I am glad I spoke out against our colour change.

I want our Club to move forward, but I as a fan I can have my opinion. I will only be buying the away kits and thats my preference, I will continue to Support my club at matches home and away, that I will always do. I want the investment if it helps our club go to the Premiership.

Certain people are not letting people say their true feelings and we all should be allowed.
Please stop the name calling and belittling, we are all fans and should be allowed to say how we feel.

It doesn't happen very often Annis, but for once I agree with you

I'm so confused right now.

I really hate the idea of becoming red but I'll always support Cardiff City, no matter what.

Thanks for the belated honesty, things are becoming a little clearer.

I know nothing about facebook and twitter, I don't know how we identify the idiot that over stepped the line.

It was always going to be a contentious issue but we should have let the the club lead, the bedlam that has followed has identified how under prepared we are as a club to make that step up. The handling of the message was atrociously handled, the internet chatroom was the only source of information it seemed.

I hope the club and tainted representatives of the support groups can convince our sponsors that it was only a few hotheaded individuals that overstepped the line, and we as a mass will fully match their commitment with ours and will fully support the clubs ambitions united.

Vince- thanks for this post.
It helps to understand how it all began in the 1st instance and must of been an hell of a monkey on your back so to speak.

Fingers crossed the damage can be undone

An excellent piece Vince, thanks for sharing this information with us. You're a good man and I can understand and appreciate the testing predicament you were in. It must have been a very heavy emotional burden to carry. The leak has done untold damage to the club, what a difference it would have made if plans were presenting properly with pictures of stadium development etc, everyone could have made an informed decision based on actual facts instead of on a leak deliberately intended to provoke a reaction. I don't hold you at all personally responsible for the leak, but whoever did it put their own personal opinion before the best interests of the club.

That said, we all need to pull together and move forward now for the long term future and success of the club. You do a terrific job yourself Vince, which is appreciated by many, please do keep up the good work

As you know Vince, we both deep down feel the same way.

I accept that we have to have change other wise, we lose our investment which as we are £72 mill in debt we desperately need.

But that does not mean I agreed with all the original proposed changes and in my heart still dont with the new ones.

I never agreed with Sam on his badge change.

I am glad I spoke out about our Bluebird being taken off and loosing our nickname.

I am glad I spoke out against our colour change.

I want our Club to move forward, but I as a fan I can have my opinion. I will only be buying the away kits and thats my preference, I will continue to Support my club at matches home and away, that I will always do. I want the investment if it helps our club go to the Premiership.

Certain people are not letting people say their true feelings and we all should be allowed.
Please stop the name calling and belittling, we are all fans and should be allowed to say how we feel.

It doesn't happen very often Annis, but for once I agree with you

Cheers and your right that is rare.

I'm for it. Yes we are Cardiff not Malaysia but our owner is Malaysian. He wouldn't just do it for the sake of it. Look at the Far East. Biggest support for Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal. All red kits. It's not a coincidence is it?

If we want VT to stick around and I for one do then we need to do it. Blue hasn't been very succesful for us recently maybe Red will signify a change in luck. Certainly there are 100 million reasons why it might.

Thanks for the honesty Vince, you could not do any more or any less than what you have done. By the way, your music collection is crap!! where,s the Beatles???

I'm for it. Yes we are Cardiff not Malaysia but our owner is Malaysian. He wouldn't just do it for the sake of it. Look at the Far East. Biggest support for Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal. All red kits. It's not a coincidence is it?

can you think of another reason they might be the biggest clubs out there ? i'll give you a clue, its not because they dont wear blue

It's a shame your committee leaked the news. It could've been a lot smoother.

if they hadnt this would have been announced as a done deal next week, do you think thats right ?

I will only be buying the away kits

So does that mean we are back to the possibility of our home kit not being blue? I thought the changing colour thing was dropped?

Thanks for taking the time to write the post Vince. Firstly I would say that it was wrong for the Malaysians to call you in and run these proposals past you and then expect you to give an opinion of how it will be perceived by the fans. This is not a dig at you but in what capacity were they expecting you to act in? You can only act in your capacity as a fans leader when the fans have been properly consulted.
I do not envy the position that you were put in. The promise to rid the club of his historical dept at the expence of some of its history was never going to be acceptable to all. It is apparent that the removal of the bluebird and replacing it with a dragon was a step too far for many fans (myself included) and the fact that there was no offer of negotiation on this issue put some of us in the position of either staying away from the club or fighting these proposals.

I can appreciate that some of the fans leaders genuinely believed that the Malaysians would walk away if we opposed the changes and were arguing for the fans to accept these changes by ultlising tv and messagaeboards to get their message across. What the same fans leaders should have been doing was convincing the Malaysians that they would face a considerable backlash if trying to force these changes in without any proper consultation or compromise.
The backlash against these proposals was quite significant which seemed to have come as some surprise to the Malaysians. I would therefore like to know if the fans leaders adequately convinced the Malaysians of the impending backlash or if they had indeed done this and it was a case that the Malaysians were convinced that they could bully these plans through regardless?

Although it was always going to be a high risk strategy to oppose these changes, this has now been done and the Malaysians have not walked away which is contrary to what some fans leaders were telling us at the time.
It is my honest opinion that there will be a compromise on these proposals which will suit both parties and we will still get significant investment as a result. My only remaining concern is that this issue has severely divided the fans and these divisions may take a considerable amount of time to heal, if ever.

Thank you for taking the time to explain what has happened.

Now we can take some of the emotion out of things, we can see things aren't black and white (or red and blue).


I can understand almost all points of view and hopefully we can find a compromise. Saying that there are not many clubs who would of bothered consulting any fans, especially as it was likely to leak at some point.

Thanks Vince for an honest report. Bit unfair, to say the least, that all the pressure was put on you personally.

Some on this thread say that the leak came from within the ccsc, although you don't actually say that. But it is probably better that we know now, and that all this did not happen later on in the summer.

In the open letter on Thursday, TG says that we will be playing in Blue at home, with the Bluebirds badge this coming season. Obviously, I have seen TG around the stadium on match days, but have never spoken with him. People say that he is a man of his word, so can we assume that this is still the case for 2012/13? Would the changes be phased in more gradually? If they change the home kit now, after TG's letter, it will tell us all that we need to know about the owners.

Personally, I am sickened by the thought of our first choice colour being anything but Blue. There is just no need. Man City and Chelsea did not have to change by their foreign owners. I have tried to accept it, but simply can not. Our club is a laughing stock. I would rather be in the Conference with Newport County and Wrexham.

Final point. Wish they had told us this before I paid £419 for my season ticket for next season. I saw my first game in 1969, and can not imagine supporting CCFC in Red. No loss, I know, because blokes like me are not the future, but sad nevertheless.

Like you, at the start I am thinking sod it, take admin and a 15 points deduction and start again, maybe like yourself my
opinion will soften in time.

We will see.

Though I'm glad a common sense approach is now breaking out all over the place but I must take exception to this.To those that think this is the answer to all our problems with the kind of debt we got we wouldn't come out the other side.

Many thanks Vince for this explanation. I also know from church leadership and school life how difficult it is to keep confidences when the pressure is great. The 8 wks you knew of this change must have been extremely difficult for you. As you said, " I could see many people reacting like I did when I was first told."

The way the news broke was a bombshell; like you we were told it was a take it or we walk away back to Malaysia offer. Moreover we fans have not had the 8 wks cooling off period you have had and some of the reaction has not been as dignified as others. A very small minority of it has been disgraceful and those responsible need to be banned from the Club for life. But I see now that the Malaysians are seeking more of a compromise and for that I thank them. I think they have got a sense of how deeply fans associate with their Clubs this week. You can't have the fervour of the terrace support without the identification to our history. It's one of the same thing.

You mention that some smaller clubs have had several changes of kit and badges over recent years. Yes that might be so but we have played in only blue and white for 104 years. The issue is on a different scale. Blue and Cardiff have grown to be one of the same thing in the fans' minds. 

As I posted elsewhere families are not immune from disagreements, even heated ones, but are still families and come out of them stronger. Strangely I'm positive for the future. The fans have seen the depth of TG's and VT's financial support for City and in return they have seen that 99.9% of City fans have a depth of support for the Club that is needed for any successful future.

Though the fans have not had March,
 April and May to process this huge news fans are at least now a little more able to start to come to terms with what you have over recent weeks.

Personlly I like the designs Daniel M has posted on the internet and have posted them to TG. I'm sure they are a basis to move forward and inspite of the events of this last week Cardiff City FC will move forward stronger to the Premier League and in Malaysia. 

StT.

I haven't a clue who leaked it to be honest! some of the material is inaccurate like changing the stadium colours that certainly hasn't been discussed with me, apart from when I raised the question to Wayne and Alan and they said that hasn't been discussed but Wayne said it would take close to £700,000 to change the seats alone.

Thank you all for your support and understanding of the situation

We would still be wearing blue shirts for half of the games. This season we have played in blue in the homes games and then white ( the colour of our rivals - which I find harder to stomach than any thought of playing in red) or that horrendous black and yellow monstrosity in away games. So we only played in blue for 50% of the games. The only difference next season would be we would be wearing blue away from home but still playing in blue for only 50% of the games. I just don't see the problem with this if it means we remain in existence. If the bluebird remains on the badge and our nickname remains as the bluebirds then that for me are the only two issues that really matter. We will always have our history as long as we remain Cardiff City F C but if VT pulls out and we go out of existence then we will lose our history because any new club formed (AFC Cardiff or whatever it would be called) would have no connection with Cardiff City and no right to claim its history. I have always hated the introduction of the away kit (and then a third kit). In my day we played in blue home or away and the away side only changed their kit when their colours clashed with the home team colours. So in those days we played in blue most of the time home or away. But times changed and clubs saw money to be made in having a different colour for the away kit and thereby being able to sell home and away shirts. I didn't like the change but now there are younger supporters who only remember different colours for home and away kits. We would still have different colours home and away just the fact that it would be red at home and blue away. As I say as long as the bluebird remains as part of the badge and bluebirds remains our nickname then I think it us time to embrace change again. Without VT's financial backing we will not have a team to support. In years to come new young fans won't remember any different just like some of our younger supporters now don't remember the days before different coloured home and away kits.

Thanks Vince for an honest report. Bit unfair, to say the least, that all the pressure was put on you personally.

Some on this thread say that the leak came from within the ccsc, although you don't actually say that. But it is probably better that we know now, and that all this did not happen later on in the summer.

In the open letter on Thursday, TG says that we will be playing in Blue at home, with the Bluebirds badge this coming season. Obviously, I have seen TG around the stadium on match days, but have never spoken with him. People say that he is a man of his word, so can we assume that this is still the case for 2012/13? Would the changes be phased in more gradually? If they change the home kit now, after TG's letter, it will tell us all that we need to know about the owners.

Personally, I am sickened by the thought of our first choice colour being anything but Blue. There is just no need. Man City and Chelsea did not have to change by their foreign owners. I have tried to accept it, but simply can not. Our club is a laughing stock. I would rather be in the Conference with Newport County and Wrexham.

Final point. Wish they had told us this before I paid £419 for my season ticket for next season. I saw my first game in 1969, and can not imagine supporting CCFC in Red. No loss, I know, because blokes like me are not the future, but sad nevertheless.

Your final comment about being told before bying your season ticket says it all really. It's the club we support not the colour of the shirt. We only play in blue for 50% of the games. For years now we have played in various horrendous kits when playing away from home BUT we still support the club and the team whatever colour shirt we are warring when playing in away games. We have even worn white this season. The colour of our rivals. I find that much harder to stomach than any thought of playing 'home games' in red.

The person who was responsible for the leak has a lot to answer for and you really have to question if they have the best interests of CCFC at heart. The other thing that could have been done was to send a consultation document to all season ticket holders outlining the proposed changes and potential investment clearly detailing the options and asking them to vote one way or the other

Personally i was and still am dead against the changes but i would not walk away from the Club i love and sometimes you have to accept change in order to prosper