Debt free club in Championship or £50 million debt in prem

Ok daft question, but it would be a good softener if we miss out and clear the debt and have a decent budget and add quality to the squad...

debt free definitely then go up as champions

Debt free in championship. I prefer the championship anyway

Debt free in the championship

No-brainer for me, debt free in the Champ.

Surely promition to the Premiership will get you debt free!!!

Angry Man is absolutely right. Just ask Portsmouth, Birmingham, Southampton, West Ham, Coventry, Leeds ........ etc!

Angry Man is absolutely right. Just ask Portsmouth, Birmingham, Southampton, West Ham, Coventry, Leeds ........ etc!

Hey bad management is a completely different thing

Angry Man is absolutely right. Just ask Portsmouth, Birmingham, Southampton, West Ham, Coventry, Leeds ........ etc!

What about Stoke ? and its not like we're debt free now is it . Give me the Prem anyday of the week and that also help us attract the better players too

What is the obsession with being debt free, how many clubs in the country do you think are debt free, debt is a tool to be used to stimulate growth, how do you think the vast majority of business's run or expand.

Nothing wrong with debt.

What is the obsession with being debt free, how many clubs in the country do you think are debt free, debt is a tool to be used to stimulate growth, how do you think the vast majority of business's run or expand.

Nothing wrong with debt.

That reminds me Gwyn. Where's that 10 quid you owe me?

"Surely Premiership means debt free?" - clearly implying the one automatically leads to the other. No conditions or qualifications attached. No mention of commercial acumen. A bald statement of fact.

I merely pointed out that isn't always the case. And I am right.

So you then try to change the meaning of what you actually said. Are you a politician or something?

Surely promition to the Premiership will get you debt free!!!

It would but surely entering the prem with minimal or no debt would put the club on a far stronger footing to invest once in the prem?

What is the obsession with being debt free, how many clubs in the country do you think are debt free, debt is a tool to be used to stimulate growth, how do you think the vast majority of business's run or expand.

Nothing wrong with debt.

That reminds me Gwyn. Where's that 10 quid you owe me?

I bought some shares in HTc Oli and they just found a big oil reserve in the Falklands, it looks like that tenner will be worth 300 quid in a few months, do you want the tenner, or shall we sit tight.

I would think that most of us on here in our early years, worked and save hard to raise a deposit and buy a house with a mortgage, this would be seen as an investment. And in those days it really was and our total payments were well covered and a healthy profit returned as our house prices rose.

Some people it would appear, think that the way you do things, is save up the full amount and but the house for cash, they still live in tents.

Sorry but I just do not buy the fact that the money wasn't there. The bids were all confirmed by our club, their clubs, their players.......and Carl said himself what he was told the payment structure would be......Why would Malky leave a cash strapped club like Watford to further his career and join another cash strapped club who reneged on their promise to him about cash....for Malky then sign a contract extension with these so called "liars"

The money was there.....the deals just didnt come off.

no idea why my above post has ended up in this thread as it was posted in another

What is the obsession with being debt free, how many clubs in the country do you think are debt free, debt is a tool to be used to stimulate growth, how do you think the vast majority of business's run or expand.

Nothing wrong with debt.

Quite right in principle Gwyn , and very true for general businesses e.g it might make sense for say an engineering company to borrow to buy new machinery to make more or cheaper products to meet customer demand. The cost is often offset by reduced employee costs as machine replaces man as well (so a moral dilemma as well in areas of high unemployment).

But football is different. The borrowed money is far too often not used to stimulate growth but to go for an "instant fix" of spend on players transfer fees and wages.So no investment and no benefit to the club itself or the community in which it is based the money goes straight into the pockets of the players and their agents.

In the case of CCFC , debt is not great. A lot of our historical debt was caused by wasting too much money on wages , although that spent on the stadium at least gave us an asset capable of earning far more matchday income than Ninian Park could ever have done (but even now matchday income for CCFC is only about 40% of the club`s total income). It also gave a benefit to the extent it was invested in the Academy structure which potentially will generate future transfer fees brought in and/or save on transfer fees needed to be paid out.

In reality , there is not a huge growth in income possible while we remain a Championship club. We will finish the season as the 6th best supported side and attendances are unlikely to grow much , the TV income will remain the same and sponsorship deals , advertising etc. are also unlikely to grow rapidly unless we reach the Premier.

Ther Premier offers far far more potential to make money just down to the sheer size of those income streams (e,g. TV money at a minimum of £38m rather than £3m in the Championship , full corporate areas generating premium income on match days, sponsors and advertisers paying premium rates for match advertising etc).That doesn`t mean to say that many clubs don`t then go on to waste that extra income on transfer fees , player wages etc , it just gives a well managed and controlled club the opportunity to balance the books.

Keith

And can you quote me sme of these well run book balancing clubs currently paying within their means in the Premiership

Both scenarios are seriously flawed. Do you think if we stay down we are going to wipe the debt completely

Both scenarios are seriously flawed. Do you think if we stay down we are going to wipe the debt completely

I thought that , as every season in the Championship, Cardiffte debt has increased. The only way to "get rich" so to speak, is follow the module set by Burnley, West Brom and to a certain extent Swansea, i.e have a rigid wage structure, sell your high profile players year on year, and either stay in the Premier, or if you are relegated use the incredibly unfair parachute payments and yo - yo, every few years between both divisions. Its only when the parachute payments run out you become an average Championship club again competing like every one else.

If you follow that above module, you should stay in the black. Even if you had home crowds of zero, you would still be laughing such are the financial rewards of the TV monies.

And can you quote me sme of these well run book balancing clubs currently paying within their means in the Premiership

I can quote you some from season 2010/11 which are the latest sets of information available

Arsenal made a huge profit (again) but they are an exception in the way they are run.

Blackpool made a huge profit of over £20m by controlling their wage bill and their matchday income was far lower than ours is.

WBA , Fulham and Wolves all made very big profits and I would consider them to be similar in size to us as clubs. I think Stoke did too , but I don`t have their 2011 figures to hand.

Swansea will make a big profit this season.


Burnley made over £14m in profit the year they were in the Premier.

Hope this helps

Keith

If we went up we would have to spend £15m at least on players , we have debts of what £40m ..........we will not be debt free . Also cant see malaysians just paying off all money , even if in shares one day they will be converted into cash where will the money come from ?

If we went up we would have to spend £15m at least on players , we have debts of what £40m ..........we will not be debt free . Also cant see malaysians just paying off all money , even if in shares one day they will be converted into cash where will the money come from ?

1) agree re the need to spend on players at a higher level and also pay higher wages (but Blackpool nearly stayed up with a wage bill of only £12m)

2) a lot of the current recorded debts will never have to be paid by the club (e.g. the stadium naming rights figure of £9m) or will be paid off at considerably less than the recorded figure (e.g. Langstone)

3) I don`t understand your comment about the shares having to be converted into cash.Not by the club it won`t - if someone wants to buy the shares in the future they will pay the money to the existing shareholders - the club itself won`t be involved in either paying out or receiving cash

Keith

What is the obsession with being debt free, how many clubs in the country do you think are debt free, debt is a tool to be used to stimulate growth, how do you think the vast majority of business's run or expand.

Nothing wrong with debt.

As long as its manageable and not escalating

And can you quote me sme of these well run book balancing clubs currently paying within their means in the Premiership

I can quote you some from season 2010/11 which are the latest sets of information available

Arsenal made a huge profit (again) but they are an exception in the way they are run.

Blackpool made a huge profit of over £20m by controlling their wage bill and their matchday income was far lower than ours is.

WBA , Fulham and Wolves all made very big profits and I would consider them to be similar in size to us as clubs. I think Stoke did too , but I don`t have their 2011 figures to hand.

Swansea will make a big profit this season.


Burnley made over £14m in profit the year they were in the Premier.

Hope this helps

Keith

Yes I'm sure there are clubs who during the odd season will run at a profit, but how many of them are debt free, also some people seem to think be owned bys someone is not seen as a debt, but when those owners leave, i think they'll see it slightly differently, what would happen to Chelsea if Abramovich got bored and wanted to move on, how would he be repaid.

And can you quote me sme of these well run book balancing clubs currently paying within their means in the Premiership

I can quote you some from season 2010/11 which are the latest sets of information available

Arsenal made a huge profit (again) but they are an exception in the way they are run.

Blackpool made a huge profit of over £20m by controlling their wage bill and their matchday income was far lower than ours is.

WBA , Fulham and Wolves all made very big profits and I would consider them to be similar in size to us as clubs. I think Stoke did too , but I don`t have their 2011 figures to hand.

Swansea will make a big profit this season.


Burnley made over £14m in profit the year they were in the Premier.

Hope this helps

Keith

Yes I'm sure there are clubs who during the odd season will run at a profit, but how many of them are debt free, also some people seem to think be owned bys someone is not seen as a debt, but when those owners leave, i think they'll see it slightly differently, what would happen to Chelsea if Abramovich got bored and wanted to move on, how would he be repaid.

Gwyn

A number of the clubs I listed have made profits in more than one season - the longer they can stay in the Premier , the easier it is for them to do so.Also , my point was that it is quite possible for a well managed , prudent , club to make a profit in the Premier - as these and others have done.

Abramovitch had a deal where he had to be repaid within 3 years of him leaving Chelsea if he did so - they would have to sell off some big players to have any chance of doing that - but there have been variations on that deal since to make it less onerous.

I am a bit confused by your owners comment. If the ownership is in shares (as ours will be entirely shortly and which Championship clubs have agreed to under the UEFA Fair Play rules) then there is nothing to be repaid by the club if they move on.

Keith