Club assets

Sam Hammam comes in, club without assets. We, through loan/s, acquire player assets, youth academy, improved Ninian Park. As a result of investments/loan the clubs profile rises, thus elevating us to Championship level and improving attendances. Also, we have players that we owned outright - the fact some were sold later is irrelevant to this post.

In contrast, the Malaysians do a fair few good things - however they take the same loans out in our clubs name, and spend them on high wages towards players we do not own. So, extra debts with very little to show for them.

There's a point in there somewhere.

Just my opinion.

In contrast, the Malaysians do a fair few good things - however they take the same loans out in our clubs name, and spend them on high wages towards players we do not own. So, extra debts with very little to show for them.
Just my opinion.

can you clarify what loans exactly VT and TG have taken out in the clubs name? I have not seen the 2011 accounts and I'm pretty sure you have not either.

Thats what people don't seem to understand, they think that the malaysians are the messiahs and that Sam is the root of all evil. Yes we had some much needed investment of them after PR but if they were to leave now we'd be in a much worse situation than we were when Sam left and they could leave at any time, I don't think they care for Cardiff City, they just seen the bright lights of the prem and the money they could make selling our club to malaysia.

Bring back Sam Hammam and some passion back Cardiff City

Do you honestly believe that all the money that VT stumped up for Bellamy' s wages he's just going to write off and call it an " investment " towards CCFC ? He will be wanting that back at some stage coz both VT and TG know full well that football is NOT a money making business unless you sell on players as opposed to letting them go on free transfers when their contracts expire , or get promoted to the Prem ! They backed Jones totally last season effectively gambling for Prem league promotion then they would have re-couped their money but now especially with current debt building AND Langston now the major creditor waiting in the wings for cash VT's bottomless pit seems to be getting closer . I think we all know what's coming .

um staff wages players wages,parkin signing,keinan signing, you dont think theyve used their own money do yoi

um staff wages players wages,parkin signing,keinan signing, you dont think theyve used their own money do yoi

Just to clarify mate, are you referring to my post or Feedbacks post?

um staff wages players wages,parkin signing,keinan signing, you dont think theyve used their own money do yoi

I do actually think they have used their own money. They have personally invested money into CCFC. I beleive (I do not know as I have yet to see the 2011 accounts) that any funds have not been borrowed against the name of CCFC. In other words, even if it is not equity investment but debt investment, the debt is owed by CCFc to VT and TG and not to some unknown third party offshore hedge fund based in the worlds single biggest jurisdiction for tax evasion.

I have not yet seen the accounts but I beleive that they wil show any investment by VT and TG as being owed to VT and TG. hence they have used their own money. This is not to say they have given this money to CCFC, however, what it does say, is that its their own money they stand to lose and not someone elses.

Thats what people don't seem to understand, they think that the malaysians are the messiahs

where has that been said? i think VT and TG are a little more transparent with regard the money being invested

and that Sam is the root of all evil.

again, where has that been said?

Yes we had some much needed investment of them after PR but if they were to leave now we'd be in a much worse situation than we were when Sam left and they could leave at any time, I don't think they care for Cardiff City, they just seen the bright lights of the prem and the money they could make selling our club to malaysia.

you may be right, they are hard nosed businessmen - good, its what we need right now to undo years of finanacial incontinence at the club. One thing is for certain, any monies they have invested has ben personally invested and not secured off some bank or hedge fund. Hence they stand to lose personally if it goes pear shaped.

how many of our former owners and chairmen can actually say they have used their own money?

Bring back Sam Hammam and some passion back Cardiff City

plpenty of passion at CCFC before Hammam came, there is plenty of passion now Hammam is no longer around. Match day is what is important, and the CCS is a good place to be, certainly no worse than Ninian Park.

You don't need to see the accounts. If you go on the companies house website you can see that the Malaysians have secured their loans against the club, not gifted money.

You don't need to see the accounts. If you go on the companies house website you can see that the Malaysians have secured their loans against the club, not gifted money.

In contrast, the Malaysians do a fair few good things - however they take the same loans out in our clubs name, and spend them on high wages towards players we do not own. So, extra debts with very little to show for them.
Just my opinion.

can you clarify what loans exactly VT and TG have taken out in the clubs name? I have not seen the 2011 accounts and I'm pretty sure you have not either.

All the money that as come into the club from the Malaysians as come as secured loans, do people think it's just given, if the Malaysians were to leave now, we would have a much bigger debt nearer 60 million, with a lot less salable assets now.

We have a stadium, but very little income from food drink and functions, the rental from retail development as gone to make certain people rich rather than the club, the land that came with the deal as been sold off to certain people at the club under a hugely discounted price, the playing staff as been decimated and there is very little salable assets amongst them, and potential from youngsters coming thru is near to zilch, I'm sure we can turn that around to blame Sam as well.

You don't need to see the accounts. If you go on the companies house website you can see that the Malaysians have secured their loans against the club, not gifted money.

but it is money invested dirctly by VT and TG and not some third party offshore hedge fund set up in the worlds largest tax evasion jurisdiction?

Whether secured or otehrwise, it is possible for the debt to be covnerted to equity at a later stage.

Back to my point, it is their own money and not someone elses.

thats good to hear.

All the money that as come into the club from the Malaysians as come as secured loans, do people think it's just given, if the Malaysians were to leave now, we would have a much bigger debt nearer 60 million, with a lot less salable assets now.

so we both agree it is VT and TG's own money that has come in and not some third party offshore hedge fund set up in the worlds largest tax evasion jurisdiction. This is good news - there is mucgh greater transparency around who the club is borrowing money from than under previous administrations. What is also good to see is that we have businessmen at the helm who are savvy enough to secure their investment by way of floating charges. This can only be seen as a good thing having such astute business people now running the show.

We have a stadium, but very little income from food drink and functions,

agreed, ridsdale mortgaged everything that could be mortgaged

the rental from retail development as gone to make certain people rich rather than the club, the land that came with the deal as been sold off to certain people at the club under a hugely discounted price,

the land was never the clubs to sell. The club never owned Ninian Park either, it had a 20 odd year lease left running on it. The land,l in both cases, was always owned by the council. CCFC traded the NP lease for the new stadium lease. The lease of the retail was given to Capital Retail (if thats their name) so ensure cash flows to fund the stadium. Without such a structured deal and funding put in place by PMG, the stadium would not have gone ahead.

PMG spotted a business opportunity, I am not sure why anyone is surprised that businessmen invested in a business proposition to make money. how many business owners on here do things out of munificence or altruism?

the playing staff as been decimated and there is very little salable assets amongst them, and potential from youngsters coming thru is near to zilch, I'm sure we can turn that around to blame Sam as well.

I've never tried to blame anyone. What I said with regard to Hammam was that his gamble did not pay off. We were left with serious cash issues (remember Black Friday) where we had to have a firesale of players to ensure survival.

In my opinion we have more successful businessmen at the helm who are taking a wholly different more cautious approach, an appraoch that has worked at similar clubs such as Burnley, Hull, blackpool and Swansea.

It may take a few seasons for the current owners to undo the financial incontinence of the last ten years, but I'm sure as a business we will be on a much better footing as a result.

You don't need to see the accounts. If you go on the companies house website you can see that the Malaysians have secured their loans against the club, not gifted money.

but it is money invested dirctly by VT and TG and not some third party offshore hedge fund set up in the worlds largest tax evasion jurisdiction?

Whether secured or otehrwise, it is possible for the debt to be covnerted to equity at a later stage.

Back to my point, it is their own money and not someone elses.

thats good to hear.

On that basis, the debt owed to Langston could also be converted to shares - I.e. Sams return. Debt is debt.

You don't need to see the accounts. If you go on the companies house website you can see that the Malaysians have secured their loans against the club, not gifted money.

but it is money invested dirctly by VT and TG and not some third party offshore hedge fund set up in the worlds largest tax evasion jurisdiction?

Whether secured or otehrwise, it is possible for the debt to be covnerted to equity at a later stage.

Back to my point, it is their own money and not someone elses.

thats good to hear.

On that basis, the debt owed to Langston could also be converted to shares - I.e. Sams return. Debt is debt.

This is corect, only if existing shareholders agree. Company law is quite clear in that debt can only be converted to equity and dilute existing shareholders holdings if 75% of shareholders agree. I doubt that the existing shareholders will agree to this as the shares are in a Ltd and not a plc therefore cannot be openly traded. Thus the impact of debt on share price is negligible, what affects Ltd share price is annual dividends and future earnings. There is no rationale to convert debt to equity unless the debt is payable immediately and is secured. It is neither, so its unlikely the debt will be converted.

This is corect, only if existing shareholders agree. Company law is quite clear in that debt can only be converted to equity and dilute existing shareholders holdings if 75% of shareholders agree. I doubt that the existing shareholders will agree to this as the shares are in a Ltd and not a plc therefore cannot be openly traded. Thus the impact of debt on share price is negligible, what affects Ltd share price is annual dividends and future earnings. There is no rationale to convert debt to equity unless the debt is payable immediately and is secured. It is neither, so its unlikely the debt will be converted.

Surely interest payments on the 'debt' hamper the potential for a dividend/ability to make money for existing shareholders