" What gives us the right... "

What gives us the right to feel that we should be 10 points clear at the top of the league, as I've heard/seen so many people say this season?

How long will it be before people realise that this is football, and nobody has a divine right to anything in this game, ever?

How can people justify such arrogance in the face of overwhelming evidence from over a century of the beautiful game in all it's glory which proves that nobody has an automatic right to anything in football?

The best paid manager in the league? A team littered with internationals, one of whom could have signed for a champions league club last year and another who has played for England this year? A team that reached the play off final last year and has by and large kept that team intact and added TEN new players to it!!! The fact there are no teams like Newcastle or West Ham splashing the cash in this league making it one of the weakest Championship's in my memory. I could go on and on.

Player for player our team is the best in this league, bar none! We have an embarassment of riches at this level but despite our hefty wage bill you cant buy heart, passion, commitment or motivation! Jones has been inept at best this season! His tactics are so prehistoric they are an embarassment!

There is no right, there is no arrogance.

On paper, we've one of the best squads in the division. Teams are going to fight hard against us, sure, but so what? We need to win those games, battle hard when needed.

The 13 game slump earlier in the season was utterly abysmal. Points from those games, and indeed, the last few games, would have put us close to QPR.

In the last few seasons, we'd be nowhere near the automatic places right now.

The pre season talk from the management , no excuses this time about NOT having the players available , the signing of 1 of the best players in the Premiership , the backing given in the Jan window ............... DJ talked himself into the fans expectation levels being so high !

The best paid manager in the league? A team littered with internationals, one of whom could have signed for a champions league club last year and another who has played for England this year? A team that reached the play off final last year and has by and large kept that team intact and added TEN new players to it!!! The fact there are no teams like Newcastle or West Ham splashing the cash in this league making it one of the weakest Championship's in my memory. I could go on and on.

Player for player our team is the best in this league, bar none! We have an embarassment of riches at this level but despite our hefty wage bill you cant buy heart, passion, commitment or motivation! Jones has been inept at best this season! His tactics are so prehistoric they are an embarassment!

So?

None of this guarantees you anything in football. We are living proof of this, as were Leeds in 2002 and the likes of Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton and Leeds have been in League One.
I don't think I need to remind you of the money Chelsea and Man City have, and yet Arsenal are above them despite having spent a fraction of their budgets on players.
Real Madrid haven't won a decent trophy for years now despite their galacticos and what have you.
You could even cite the New Zealand rugby union team as such an example.

I also disagree about our team being the best in the league player for player. There are many better goalkeepers, defenders and a few better central midfielders as well imo.

And Vintage, I refer you to the Great Capitulation at Hillsborough two seasons ago - after that game Jones said "I thought this team were good enough to go up - not just through the playoffs but automatically - and clearly we weren't."

Proof that Jones' judgement is not infallible, and it is your own decision entirely if you want to take his word for gospel. I don't think the defence is better now than it was then, and look at the difference.

Nothing in football is guaranteed. How many times?

Citing Man City, Real madrid, what was the common denominator?

Manager unable to create a team out of individuals.

Which is precisely our situation.

Citing Man City, Real madrid, what was the common denominator?

Manager unable to create a team out of individuals.

Which is precisely our situation.

Yeah. Hence we've got no right to be 10 points clear at the top of the league. We don't have the tools to do it as a club.

Citing Man City, Real madrid, what was the common denominator?

Manager unable to create a team out of individuals.

Which is precisely our situation.

Yeah. Hence we've got no right to be 10 points clear at the top of the league. We don't have the tools to do it as a club.

Yes, we have the tools, player wise - Bellamy as of last season would walk into any team, most teams would want Chop, Bothroyd to name another two.

The manager has failed to get the tactics right - Bellamy has been disappointing, Chopra out wide? -, failed to forge a team out of the squad.

Given he's been here how long? Churned the squad over how many times? How long do you give him? Certainly I'd expect him to be gone summer at the latest.

As I said, I'd love us to go up, history indicates DJ can get teams up to a certain contending level, can't get the job done.

IF the Malaysians feel things have slid too far this season / need a change to recover this season, then I'd go along with a replacement now. Give new guy chance to turn things around - something DJ has historically had problems with - also extra time to prepare for next season.

I'd suspect they'd wait till summer, however.

The best paid manager in the league? A team littered with internationals, one of whom could have signed for a champions league club last year and another who has played for England this year? A team that reached the play off final last year and has by and large kept that team intact and added TEN new players to it!!! The fact there are no teams like Newcastle or West Ham splashing the cash in this league making it one of the weakest Championship's in my memory. I could go on and on.

Player for player our team is the best in this league, bar none! We have an embarassment of riches at this level but despite our hefty wage bill you cant buy heart, passion, commitment or motivation! Jones has been inept at best this season! His tactics are so prehistoric they are an embarassment!

So?

None of this guarantees you anything in football. We are living proof of this, as were Leeds in 2002 and the likes of Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton and Leeds have been in League One.
I don't think I need to remind you of the money Chelsea and Man City have, and yet Arsenal are above them despite having spent a fraction of their budgets on players.
Real Madrid haven't won a decent trophy for years now despite their galacticos and what have you.
You could even cite the New Zealand rugby union team as such an example.

I also disagree about our team being the best in the league player for player. There are many better goalkeepers, defenders and a few better central midfielders as well imo.

And Vintage, I refer you to the Great Capitulation at Hillsborough two seasons ago - after that game Jones said "I thought this team were good enough to go up - not just through the playoffs but automatically - and clearly we weren't."

Proof that Jones' judgement is not infallible, and it is your own decision entirely if you want to take his word for gospel. I don't think the defence is better now than it was then, and look at the difference.

Nothing in football is guaranteed. How many times?

I agree, its not guaranteed but DJ himself has said this is the best squad he has had. He told the Malaysians that if they got him Bellamy he would get us up, he then said that if he had 5 more players in January he would get us up. Most pundits had us as favourites to go up! On paper our team is fantastic, and the envy of the league. QPR finished far below us last season, didnt have anywhere near the level of investement that we had and look where they are! Nothing is guaranteed but weighing it all up we should be top of this league! There can be no excuses!!! If we dont go up Jones and the players have seriously under achieved!!

The best paid manager in the league? A team littered with internationals, one of whom could have signed for a champions league club last year and another who has played for England this year? A team that reached the play off final last year and has by and large kept that team intact and added TEN new players to it!!! The fact there are no teams like Newcastle or West Ham splashing the cash in this league making it one of the weakest Championship's in my memory. I could go on and on.

Player for player our team is the best in this league, bar none! We have an embarassment of riches at this level but despite our hefty wage bill you cant buy heart, passion, commitment or motivation! Jones has been inept at best this season! His tactics are so prehistoric they are an embarassment!

So?

None of this guarantees you anything in football. We are living proof of this, as were Leeds in 2002 and the likes of Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton and Leeds have been in League One.
I don't think I need to remind you of the money Chelsea and Man City have, and yet Arsenal are above them despite having spent a fraction of their budgets on players.
Real Madrid haven't won a decent trophy for years now despite their galacticos and what have you.
You could even cite the New Zealand rugby union team as such an example.

I also disagree about our team being the best in the league player for player. There are many better goalkeepers, defenders and a few better central midfielders as well imo.

And Vintage, I refer you to the Great Capitulation at Hillsborough two seasons ago - after that game Jones said "I thought this team were good enough to go up - not just through the playoffs but automatically - and clearly we weren't."

Proof that Jones' judgement is not infallible, and it is your own decision entirely if you want to take his word for gospel. I don't think the defence is better now than it was then, and look at the difference.

Nothing in football is guaranteed. How many times?

I agree, its not guaranteed but DJ himself has said this is the best squad he has had. He told the Malaysians that if they got him Bellamy he would get us up, he then said that if he had 5 more players in January he would get us up. Most pundits had us as favourites to go up! On paper our team is fantastic, and the envy of the league. QPR finished far below us last season, didnt have anywhere near the level of investement that we had and look where they are! Nothing is guaranteed but weighing it all up we should be top of this league! There can be no excuses!!! If we dont go up Jones and the players have seriously under achieved!!

Having the best squad though, does not guarantee anything and if it was the case, then Man City would run away with the Premier League!

It's about how you manage the squad that you have and even if the best manager in the world (probably Mourinho) had our squad, then even he couldn't guarantee success!

The best paid manager in the league? A team littered with internationals, one of whom could have signed for a champions league club last year and another who has played for England this year? A team that reached the play off final last year and has by and large kept that team intact and added TEN new players to it!!! The fact there are no teams like Newcastle or West Ham splashing the cash in this league making it one of the weakest Championship's in my memory. I could go on and on.

Player for player our team is the best in this league, bar none! We have an embarassment of riches at this level but despite our hefty wage bill you cant buy heart, passion, commitment or motivation! Jones has been inept at best this season! His tactics are so prehistoric they are an embarassment!

Spot on plus we also have the best facilities in the league such as the new ground, crowds of over 20,000 for each game, indoor pitch, the fantastic Vale hotel as our base with its facilities plus billionaire backers.Our facilities are on par with many of the Premiership clubs and are certainly the envy of this league.

would you agree that if we don't go up then dave jones should be sacked.
the highest paid manager in the championship has made some huge mistakes this year, letting gerrard go to hull then spending four months looking for a replacement, using up a huge chunk of the wage bill on koumas, who has been an absolute failure, not having a back up for bothroyd til january, signing danny drinkwater, a waste of another loan signing, i read dj is trying to find a replacement for rambo, theres 9 games to go ffs he shouldn't be concentrating on the next game not looking for players at this point of the season ect ect.
this is our one big chance to get promoted, we should be fighting it out for top spot with qpr, if it wasnt for the loan signing of ramsey i honestly believe we would be sitting somewhere between 6th and 9th in the table right now. i don't believe dave jones will take us up, i did til this latest run of bad results now i am resigned to failure.
dave jones should be sacked if we don't go up because he would of let every cardiff city fan down.

I agree, its not guaranteed but DJ himself has said this is the best squad he has had. He told the Malaysians that if they got him Bellamy he would get us up, he then said that if he had 5 more players in January he would get us up. Most pundits had us as favourites to go up! On paper our team is fantastic, and the envy of the league. QPR finished far below us last season, didnt have anywhere near the level of investement that we had and look where they are! Nothing is guaranteed but weighing it all up we should be top of this league! There can be no excuses!!! If we dont go up Jones and the players have seriously under achieved!!

Having the best squad though, does not guarantee anything and if it was the case, then Man City would run away with the Premier League!

It's about how you manage the squad that you have and even if the best manager in the world (probably Mourinho) had our squad, then even he couldn't guarantee success![/quote]

Agreed - there are no guarantees... but...

What we've seen the entire reign of Dave Jones is an inability to create a team, forge a team spirit.

QPR, some of their players you could argue as being journeymen - but they play like a team. They work together. They grind results out even when playing poorly.

We've never had that under Jones. That's down to their manager, who may be a wanker, but can man manage.

I wonder if Ancelotti is getting the same stick at Chelsea as DJ is here.

I agree, its not guaranteed but DJ himself has said this is the best squad he has had. He told the Malaysians that if they got him Bellamy he would get us up, he then said that if he had 5 more players in January he would get us up. Most pundits had us as favourites to go up! On paper our team is fantastic, and the envy of the league. QPR finished far below us last season, didnt have anywhere near the level of investement that we had and look where they are! Nothing is guaranteed but weighing it all up we should be top of this league! There can be no excuses!!! If we dont go up Jones and the players have seriously under achieved!!

Agreed - there are no guarantees... but...

What we've seen the entire reign of Dave Jones is an inability to create a team, forge a team spirit.

QPR, some of their players you could argue as being journeymen - but they play like a team. They work together. They grind results out even when playing poorly.

We've never had that under Jones. That's down to their manager, who may be a wanker, but can man manage.

Just to clarify matters, I didn't type the paragraph in the box, which is attributed to me!

What gives us the right to feel that we should be 10 points clear at the top of the league, as I've heard/seen so many people say this season?

How long will it be before people realise that this is football, and nobody has a divine right to anything in this game, ever?

How can people justify such arrogance in the face of overwhelming evidence from over a century of the beautiful game in all it's glory which proves that nobody has an automatic right to anything in football?

totally agree,but if you see any team of plsayers that are not giving 100% then do you not have the right to question their commitment,i am an electrician,when i do a job for somebody if i cant be bothered to do something tidy i expect critisism,and people are only to willing to give it.

This is the point, we have a fantastic group of players and facilities so why are we failing? Bad luck??? NO! Its the manager who fails to inspire and motivate the players, set them up as a unit, apply intelligent tactics, scout the opposition, select a decent starting eleven and make logical substitutions. He doesnt need anyone to make excuses for him, he has a book full of them, plain and simple, he has massively under achieved this season with all of the tools at his disposal. If Warnock was in charge of this team we would be more than 10 points clear!

I agree there is No right, But when a Manager spends £16 Mill a year on players wages and he is getting a near £1 Mill a year with Expenses etc and has now been given 6 years, We surely should finally expect to be leading the Table against mostly poor opposition who have spent peanuts compared to us, even Dave Jones said that he expects to go up.

I wonder if Ancelotti is getting the same stick at Chelsea as DJ is here.

Simple, Yea

I wonder if Ancelotti is getting the same stick at Chelsea as DJ is here.

Has Ancelotti a lengthy record of bottling it in pressure situations?

The situations are nowhere near comparable. Chelsea have an "elderly" squad, needing a period of change. They are also competitive against a significant number of good/great teams.

We've a squad of, on paper, quality players for this division. You look at QPR, very workmanlike squad, with a few flair players.

if you're seriously comparing Ancelotti to Jones, then you'd need to keep Chelsea in the analogy, remove Spurs, ManU, Arsenal, Man City and have the rest of the Prem populated by clones of Bolton, Blackburn etc...

by Jimbo27 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:03 am

The best paid manager in the league? A team littered with internationals, one of whom could have signed for a champions league club last year and another who has played for England this year? A team that reached the play off final last year and has by and large kept that team intact and added TEN new players to it!!! The fact there are no teams like Newcastle or West Ham splashing the cash in this league making it one of the weakest Championship's in my memory. I could go on and on.

Player for player our team is the best in this league, bar none! We have an embarassment of riches at this level but despite our hefty wage bill you cant buy heart, passion, commitment or motivation! Jones has been inept at best this season! His tactics are so prehistoric they are an embarrassment!

Spot on!

Malaysian culture is to strive for harmonious relationships and to save Face. I lived there for three years.
Let's hope our criticism of the manager and/or the team, state of the pitch etc is not creating a division.

"Face can be lost by openly criticizing, insulting, or putting someone on the spot; doing something that brings shame to the group; challenging someone in authority, especially if this is done in public; showing anger at another person; refusing a request; not keeping a promise; or disagreeing with someone publicly. Conversely, face can be saved by remaining calm and courteous; discussing errors or transgressions in private; speaking about problems without blaming anyone; using non-verbal communication to say "no"; and allowing the other person to get out of the situation with their pride intact."

What gives us the right to feel that we should be 10 points clear at the top of the league, as I've heard/seen so many people say this season?

How long will it be before people realise that this is football, and nobody has a divine right to anything in this game, ever?

How can people justify such arrogance in the face of overwhelming evidence from over a century of the beautiful game in all it's glory which proves that nobody has an automatic right to anything in football?

Im 50/50 with u sheffield, i bit of me thinks we should win most games with our players, wage bill etc etc but then another part thinks we are a tad disrespectful to other teams thinkin that. There is no devine right and winning is not a given, we have to earn it at the end of the day
Yes, we have undoubtedly the best squad we've ever had but we have not got th heart and bottle to back it up

The best paid Manager outside of the prem, Craig Bellamy, Michael Chopra Jay Bothroyd, Chris Burke the best players outside the Premier. We have Premier players on loan. Now you tell me why shouldn't we be 10 points clear

I dunno why u bother Dave_Sheffield, these fans are clearly "more knowledgable" than u lol. Ill back u all the way, people who want Jones out know NOTHING about football. If every set of fans were like ours there would be no managers left in football. It's pathetic. I agree that its Jonesys last chance, but u cant sack him. So much nonsense spoken on this msgboard!!

I'm glad I started this thread, what a cracking little debate this has been.

The massive variety of posts must go some way to showing people that there is no one simple answer to our problems.

And, just to clarify, if we do not improve on last season's 4th place finish AND a play off final defeat, then Jones' position becomes impossible to back.

I'll take 4th and promotion via the playoffs right now though. I'd be thrilled with it and so would every other Cardiff City fan.

Oh, and pontypool, I wouldn't say the people who want Jones gone know nothing about the game. I would, however, say that they need patience, and to look at the facts as they are at this moment in time. Sure, history does have a bearing on people's opinions but history is there to be learnt from and last season, our run in was superb.

Anyway, like I've always said, incessant support and constructive criticism at worst is all that we mere fans can do nowadays.

I dunno why u bother Dave_Sheffield, these fans are clearly "more knowledgable" than u lol. Ill back u all the way, people who want Jones out know NOTHING about football. If every set of fans were like ours there would be no managers left in football. It's pathetic. I agree that its Jonesys last chance, but u cant sack him. So much nonsense spoken on this msgboard!!

Know nothing about football?? I was a schoolboy at Cardiff and Cardiff schools, captained my University team to the British championships, played semi pro football In England and Wales for ten years, passed an fa coaching course and spent 6 months in California coaching as well as being a season ticket holder for 20 years and having four books and numerous articles on football published!! I think I know a thing or two! You have a right to your opinion on Jones and I respect that but just because you disagree doesn't mean us anti jones fans know nothing about the game! We've set out quite clearly the numerous reasons why we think jones has failed, instead of dishing out self righteous insults why don't you tell us just why Jones hasn't failed this season with everything he has had at his disposal?

The best paid Manager outside of the prem, Craig Bellamy, Michael Chopra Jay Bothroyd, Chris Burke the best players outside the Premier. We have Premier players on loan. Now you tell me why shouldn't we be 10 points clear

WELL SAID NUKES, ONE of the ONLY people in this thread talking ANY sense.


Well said Jimbo too, it is quite insulting people resorting to name calling and insults just because they happen to hold inferior opinions on subjects.

I KNOW I AM RIGHT ABOUT DJ, I would not say it if I didn't. Same as Nukes, Jimbo, or anyone else on this forum with the balls to call it how it is and not bury our heads in the sand.

The pre season talk from the management , no excuses this time about NOT having the players available , the signing of 1 of the best players in the Premiership , the backing given in the Jan window ............... DJ talked himself into the fans expectation levels being so high !

Spot on Vintage, the management and the club raised our expectations but at the moment they have not been achieved.

The best paid Manager outside of the prem, Craig Bellamy, Michael Chopra Jay Bothroyd, Chris Burke the best players outside the Premier. We have Premier players on loan. Now you tell me why shouldn't we be 10 points clear

WELL SAID NUKES, ONE of the ONLY people in this thread talking ANY sense.


Well said Jimbo too, it is quite insulting people resorting to name calling and insults just because they happen to hold inferior opinions on subjects.

I KNOW I AM RIGHT ABOUT DJ, I would not say it if I didn't. Same as Nukes, Jimbo, or anyone else on this forum with the balls to call it how it is and not bury our heads in the sand.

Maybe its the fact we have so many loan players here that coz they are outsiders and belong to another Club that they dont give or want to give 100% and play as a team coz deep down they want to be at another team which are their parent clubs ?? Yes agreed talented individuals BUT dont always play as a team ............. the reason we are 4th considering the bad spells we have had are due to moments of brilliance from OTHER loan players who have since moved on / gone back . That could explain the patchy form plus I dont think City have been fairly treated with injuries either this season ........ I think it was Stoke a few seasons back who got promoted thru the play offs with a lot of loan players in their squad too ? So on paper we have a squad to walk this division BUT with hindsight they now dont seem to gel and blend as a team . Expectation was / is high and if we have to go to Wembley again then so be it