FAO Keith (Since 62)

Whats Our Wage Bill a month ? Is it £1.2 Mill .
Paye and Tax ? £500,000 a month.

Income ?

Thanks

interesting, Keith can you confirm.

I thought I had , but my reply has gone missing somewhere (I probably pressed the wrong response button based on the day I am having so far

The PAYE/NI monthly bill is indeed around £500k. It will vary month by month as pay will include appearance money , goal bonuses etc. and there is not the same number of games played each month.

So the initial winding up petition related to 2 months PAYE , and the current claim is for 5 months` worth as the club hadn`t paid anything for the 3 months following the period the first claim related to.

Based on those PAYE figures and that virtually all the players (and a lot of senior staff) are on 40% tax rates , the monthly wage bill would be about a £1.2m cost to the club.


Keith

So we spend nigh on £15m in wages per year?

So we spend nigh on £15m in wages per year?

Hello keith so can you give us a rough idiots guide as to annual ingoings and outgoings so idiots such as myself can see how far in the shit we really are?
Could you make it easy and give us gross wages i.e including tax and NI annual vat figures, corp tax, and and any creditors and thern lump it into one figure and likewise with debtors i.e sky, the FA etc etc.. Will make interesting reading. I am guessing there wont be any surplus

Last edited by ihatealiens on Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

so idiots such as myself can see how far in the shit we really are?

Very.

That's the simplest, most basic, answer possible

Last edited by BluebirdsFan101 on Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Whats Our Wage Bill a month ? Is it £1.2 Mill .
Paye and Tax ? £500,000 a month.

Income ?

Thanks

I take it you pair are now on speaking terms

Just a quick point, but if the original winding up order was for £1.2m for 2 months PAYE then each month should be £600,000?

If the club are now being pursued for 5 months PAYE then they owe £3m and using the 40% tax example the wage bill has to be £1.5m.

Whats Our Wage Bill a month ? Is it £1.2 Mill .
Paye and Tax ? £500,000 a month.

Income ?

Thanks

I take it you pair are now on speaking terms

Not you again!

Just a quick point, but if the original winding up order was for £1.2m for 2 months PAYE then each month should be £600,000?

If the club are now being pursued for 5 months PAYE then they owe £3m and using the 40% tax example the wage bill has to be £1.5m.

Wasn't it £500k for two months and a £200k fine after it went unpaid. Now there is another 3 months at £500k per month. Therefore a total of £2.7million. I suppose if it goes unpaid there could be another £300k in fines making it £3million, however it wont get to that as it will be - pay or be damned.

Didn't someone also mention that if we pay up the fine will be recinded?

Just a quick point, but if the original winding up order was for £1.2m for 2 months PAYE then each month should be £600,000?

If the club are now being pursued for 5 months PAYE then they owe £3m and using the 40% tax example the wage bill has to be £1.5m.

Wasn't it £500k for two months and a £200k fine after it went unpaid. Now there is another 3 months at £500k per month. Therefore a total of £2.7million. I suppose if it goes unpaid there could be another £300k in fines making it £3million, however it wont get to that as it will be - pay or be damned.

Didn't someone also mention that if we pay up the fine will be recinded?

The NOTW said that £400,000 of the money owing to HMRC was as the result of a penalty for unpaid tax in 2008/09 tax year. is this true?

Just a quick point, but if the original winding up order was for £1.2m for 2 months PAYE then each month should be £600,000?

If the club are now being pursued for 5 months PAYE then they owe £3m and using the 40% tax example the wage bill has to be £1.5m.

Wasn't it £500k for two months and a £200k fine after it went unpaid. Now there is another 3 months at £500k per month. Therefore a total of £2.7million. I suppose if it goes unpaid there could be another £300k in fines making it £3million, however it wont get to that as it will be - pay or be damned.

Didn't someone also mention that if we pay up the fine will be recinded?

The NOTW said that £400,000 of the money owing to HMRC was as the result of a penalty for unpaid tax in 2008/09 tax year. is this true?

No , I don`t think it is.

Just a quick point, but if the original winding up order was for £1.2m for 2 months PAYE then each month should be £600,000?

If the club are now being pursued for 5 months PAYE then they owe £3m and using the 40% tax example the wage bill has to be £1.5m.

Those 2 months might have been but , as I say in my post above , the amount will vary each month because of number of games played , bonuses etc.

So we spend nigh on £15m in wages per year?

Hello keith so can you give us a rough idiots guide as to annual ingoings and outgoings so idiots such as myself can see how far in the shit we really are?
Could you make it easy and give us gross wages i.e including tax and NI annual vat figures, corp tax, and and any creditors and thern lump it into one figure and likewise with debtors i.e sky, the FA etc etc.. Will make interesting reading. I am guessing there wont be any surplus

Its not easy to guess as the last set of audited figures to use as a basis are those for the year to 31 May 2008 , but I `ll try my best. I should add that the last time I responded to a request to estimate the financial results was for that year when I thought the club would lose £1m to £1.5m - it actually lost £2.9m. Mind I was still closer than Peter Ridsdale who said it had made a profit of £1m (and he had seen the draft accounts!!).

In 2008 , the club`s sales turnover was £12.8m in a year where we benefitted from the run to the cup final and also the Liverpool league cup game and had an ave. attendance of just over 15k (I think , someone can correct me on that if wrong).
We lost £8.4m that year before selling off players at a profit of £5.5m to reduce the net loss to £2.9m.So , for us to break even now , we would have to increase profits by £8.4m compared to then if we wish to avoid selling off more players to balance the books.

In income terms , we have had 2 benefits compared to 2008 , which are increased attendances and an increase in the share of TV money we get paid through the League. Attendances have gone up by say 5,000 a game at an average ticket price (knocking out v.a.t. and allowing for concessions for kids etc.) of say £20.That gives extra income of £100k a home game , or £2.3m a season.The TV money has gone up from £1.2m to £3m a season with effect from this season , so that`s £1.8m extra.

In total , our income will have gone up by about £4.1m from the above 2 sources , on the assumption that ticket prices are similar to 2008 ones ( I don`t think they have gone up much). I have ignored the income from the more expensive Premier Club seats as I have offset this against the boost we had in 2008 from the cup runs.

In addition , we now have income from the Cardiff Blues rent and from the Compass catering deal , but I doubt if these increase profits by much more than £1m. The club shop will not be a big contributor to profits as it seems to have been poorly stocked where we haven`t been paying suppliers. And I don`t think commercial income has improved much - matchday sponsorship has been at previous levels , we struggled for a shirt sponsor and pitchside advertising looks fairly full but is mainly made up of standard League sponsor boards or those of businesses to whom we owed/owe money - very few fee paying advertisers.

So ,as a guess , our income may have gone up by maybe £5m since 2008 to say £18m. But I doubt if our costs (inc. payroll) have gone down at all and , with recent senior staff appointments , may actually have gone up.

In summary , I think we will have closed the gap in "normal" losses to about £3m a season from the £8m in 2008 , so that we still have to sell players to breakeven , but less so than in previous years.


If anyone holds me to these figures , I shall deny all knowledge

Excellent posting SInce 62

I was at the meeting at the Muni club and my concern and maybe YOU / TNT can help is the structure of our club and the leeches that appear to be taking money from it.

What concerns me is the number of directors / non executive directors etc that sit on the board plus the remaining structure of the club and the number of employees (I thought this was close to 120 from what PR said at the meeting) is this excesive for a championship side or is it the norm - I know our friends down the road have significantly less employees although they rent from the council

I am not trying to get people the sack but surely this needs to be addressed ?

I also think that we have too many jobs for the boys people in senior positions and not enough in the area of increasing revenue

Maybe this has come out in the due dilligence but I am sure we could make signifcant savings on a monthly basis - Everyone in the credit crunch has had to down size and become leaner as a company - we appear to be going in the opposite direction and it takes our manager to come up with a suggestion for bringing new money to the club to buy players.

Do you also have a full list of monies owed to people and is it likely that any potential investor would try to do what PR has done to Ridsdale and negotiate say the PMG downwards on the basis of payment in full ?

Cheers

If the club are now being pursued for 5 months PAYE then they owe £3m and using the 40% tax example the wage bill has to be £1.5m.[/quote]

Wasn't it £500k for two months and a £200k fine after it went unpaid. Now there is another 3 months at £500k per month. Therefore a total of £2.7million. I suppose if it goes unpaid there could be another £300k in fines making it £3million, however it wont get to that as it will be - pay or be damned.

Didn't someone also mention that if we pay up the fine will be recinded?[/quote]
The NOTW said that £400,000 of the money owing to HMRC was as the result of a penalty for unpaid tax in 2008/09 tax year. is this true?[/quote]


No , I don`t think it is.[/quote]


i think the historic debt is about 400k keith but unfortunatley the malaysians were led to believe that this was the only debt outstanding to the revenue.
thats why uncle pete was so livid at the muni with the echo that night he knew he had been found out
it is also alleged now that a certain director was appointed without his prior knowledge to deflect the bad news.
after all who can buy a directorship for 200k these days.
i think we had been "open and transparent" with the malaysians from day one we would be sorted by now.

i think the historic debt is about 400k keith but unfortunatley the malaysians were led to believe that this was the only debt outstanding to the revenue.
thats why uncle pete was so livid at the muni with the echo that night he knew he had been found out
it is also alleged now that a certain director was appointed without his prior knowledge to deflect the bad news.
after all who can buy a directorship for 200k these days.
i think we had been "open and transparent" with the malaysians from day one we would be sorted by now.

Has the directorship even been made official yet? I know it's still not up on companies house. It all did seem a little odd when it came out so quickly!

i think the historic debt is about 400k keith but unfortunatley the malaysians were led to believe that this was the only debt outstanding to the revenue.
thats why uncle pete was so livid at the muni with the echo that night he knew he had been found out
it is also alleged now that a certain director was appointed without his prior knowledge to deflect the bad news.
after all who can buy a directorship for 200k these days.
i think we had been "open and transparent" with the malaysians from day one we would be sorted by now.

Has the directorship even been made official yet? I know it's still not up on companies house. It all did seem a little odd when it came out so quickly!

owen

no not been registered yet so watch this space

Have to be careful what I say, but these goings on, are they potentially in breach of the Companies Acts?

Hmmm interesting that even with our current gate receipts we would still make an aproximate annual loss of £3 million. That would suggest that even with capacity gates for every match we would struggle to have any surplus. Something will have to give. The biggest expenditure will be wages, so they will have to be cut in some shape or form. Even if we get new investors in, there will probably have to be some radical restructuring to bring us on an even keel. Unless those investors are of course billionaires who would be willing to throw money at it knowing they will not get any return other than personal enjoyment of course. So in my estimation we either need definite Promotion to the Premier League and/or a sugar daddy who doesn't give a flying feck where his pocket money goes

So we spend nigh on £15m in wages per year?

Yep, but lets leave Peter out of it and worry about the rest for now

How to save £3 milion and break even...how about

Get rid of new press officer save£100,000 a year
get rid of new stadium manager save£100,000 a year
Manger gets paid £400,000 instead of £800.000 save £400,000 a year
Pay a CEO a proper fair salary £150,000 pa save £200,000 a year
Sell Chopra and get a top striker on £10,000 a week save £500,000 a year
Look at all players contracts and reduce them by £1-3,000 a week(could save 40k a week) save £2,000,080 a year

Ofcourse they are pretty random figures but it must be possible to survive in this league without paying money we simply have not got?


We would probably have to get different players in on smaller wages but we could cut costs by well over £3 million

How to save £3 milion and break even...how about

Get rid of new press officer save£100,000 a year
get rid of new stadium manager save£100,000 a year
Manger gets paid £400,000 instead of £800.000 save £400,000 a year
Pay a CEO a proper fair salary £150,000 pa save £200,000 a year
Sell Chopra and get a top striker on £10,000 a week save £500,000 a year
Look at all players contracts and reduce them by £1-3,000 a week(could save 40k a week) save £2,000,080 a year

Ofcourse they are pretty random figures but it must be possible to survive in this league without paying money we simply have not got?


We would probably have to get different players in on smaller wages but we could cut costs by well over £3 million

Cutting the wage bill will also have a significant effect on the monthly tax bill as well, which would be a good thing. It would also be interesting to know how much other Championship clubs pay their executives and if some or any have such a thing as a press officer. We are a Championship Club living it up like a Champions League team. The players using 5* Hotels on away trips is another crazy expenditure.

Some people on here will be demanding a cut in the wages soon, then in a couple of weeks moaning because we haven't signed Koumas, Boyd, Sol Campbell etc

How anyone would want to be in control of a football club God only knows, you can't win no matter what you do !!!!!

Some people on here will be demanding a cut in the wages soon, then in a couple of weeks moaning because we haven't signed Koumas, Boyd, Sol Campbell etc

How anyone would want to be in control of a football club God only knows, you can't win no matter what you do !!!!!

Its not easy mate and fans want success and that usually takes money...we just seem to go mad with money

How to save £3 milion and break even...how about

Get rid of new press officer save£100,000 a year
get rid of new stadium manager save£100,000 a year
Manger gets paid £400,000 instead of £800.000 save £400,000 a year
Pay a CEO a proper fair salary £150,000 pa save £200,000 a year
Sell Chopra and get a top striker on £10,000 a week save £500,000 a year
Look at all players contracts and reduce them by £1-3,000 a week(could save 40k a week) save £2,000,080 a year

Ofcourse they are pretty random figures but it must be possible to survive in this league without paying money we simply have not got?


We would probably have to get different players in on smaller wages but we could cut costs by well over £3 million

Corky I like a lot of it, but if I were to disagree with one point, it's the CEO salary. Most CEO's earn well in excess of £250k pa. Perhaps a better option in this case would be a lower salary (to the levels you suggest), and the rest made up through the issue of additional shares, based on performance. This will encourage the correct management of the club from the top.

The NOTW said that £400,000 of the money owing to HMRC was as the result of a penalty for unpaid tax in 2008/09 tax year. is this true?

Yes TNOW did say there was an historic debt of £400k due to a fine for late payment in 2008/9. Assuming then that was part of the £1.2m owing I suppose the missed payments total £800k for 2 months or £400k P/M

Again using the '40%' guide line that would make our wage bill £1m P/M around what it was in the 2008 accounts.

How to save £3 milion and break even...how about

Get rid of new press officer save£100,000 a year
get rid of new stadium manager save£100,000 a year
Manger gets paid £400,000 instead of £800.000 save £400,000 a year
Pay a CEO a proper fair salary £150,000 pa save £200,000 a year
Sell Chopra and get a top striker on £10,000 a week save £500,000 a year
Look at all players contracts and reduce them by £1-3,000 a week(could save 40k a week) save £2,000,080 a year

Ofcourse they are pretty random figures but it must be possible to survive in this league without paying money we simply have not got?


We would probably have to get different players in on smaller wages but we could cut costs by well over £3 million

Corky I like a lot of it, but if I were to disagree with one point, it's the CEO salary. Most CEO's earn well in excess of £250k pa. Perhaps a better option in this case would be a lower salary (to the levels you suggest), and the rest made up through the issue of additional shares, based on performance. This will encourage the correct management of the club from the top.

I`m with you on this.

Corky , if I am going to apply for the CEO job when it is advertised , I am not doing it for just £150k a year

On a more serious note , I am sure the club could employ an excellent CEO at no more than £250k a year which is still a big saving on what has been paid over the last few years. And all your other suggested cutbacks could be done without damaging the running of the club at all.

As I have said elsewhere , what I would do is spend money on the salary of a good marketing and commercial director because a good one would almost certainly be able to more than cover his/her cost by extra income brought into the club.

Keith

interesting, Keith can you confirm.

I thought I had , but my reply has gone missing somewhere (I probably pressed the wrong response button based on the day I am having so far

The PAYE/NI monthly bill is indeed around £500k. It will vary month by month as pay will include appearance money , goal bonuses etc. and there is not the same number of games played each month.

So the initial winding up petition related to 2 months PAYE , and the current claim is for 5 months` worth as the club hadn`t paid anything for the 3 months following the period the first claim related to.

Based on those PAYE figures and that virtually all the players (and a lot of senior staff) are on 40% tax rates , the monthly wage bill would be about a £1.2m cost to the club.


Cheers Keith

Sometimes you have to press it twice if the Forum is Busy.

Keith

Have'nt we also got the extra £90k a month, starting at the end of January to find in order to start paying back Langston? So indeed, expenditure seems to going in only one way and thats up!

Corky , if I am going to apply for the CEO job when it is advertised , I am not doing it for just £150k a year

Could you really afford to drop your salary that much?